Catalan independence referendum, 2017

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

But that's exactly what will happen. Pro choice activists have successfully lobbied for this and Ireland will have a referendum on the 8th amendment of the constitution in 2018. If the majority of people vote in favour of amending the constitution then abortion will no longer be illegal in Ireland.

Prior to 1996 divorce was illegal under the Irish constitution. A referendum was held and the majority of people voted in favour of changing the constitution to allow for married couples to divorce.

So you agree that sometimes the Constitution has to be changed to stick with the changes in the society.

bertie 56

Ok. Fictional story now

Let's imagine that, one day , people of Munster wants to change the name of their province because they are fed-up to bear the same name as a smelly cheese .
Most Munster politicians agreed in that, saying that is not a good name and want to change it into " The South Coast ".
Constitution specialists are questioned and the answer is : " A national referendum must be held "
A referendum is therefore held in all Ireland .
Nationally, the result is a " no " for changing the name.
Yes went ahead in Munster, but blockages went from " the people of the North ", in far greater number.
( who said there is no reason why the people of the South will get a nice name, given the fact that they have already the sun, etc... :P )


-question 1 : Can we say that the Constitution is close to the people's needs when requesting a national referendum for something that concern only a fraction of all Ireland population ?

-question 2 : Is it fair that one person of Munster has the same voice than one person of Connaught on the matter ?

question 3 : How to deal with the growing population of Munster who feels betrayed ?


PS : my apologies to all Munster people , that is fictional !!!

marienbad

bertie 56 wrote: »

Ok. Fictional story now

Let's imagine that, one day , people of Munster wants to change the name of their province because they are fed-up to bear the same name as a smelly cheese .
Most Munster politicians agreed in that, saying that is not a good name and want to change it into " The South Coast ".
Constitution specialists are questioned and the answer is : " A national referendum must be held "
A referendum is therefore held in all Ireland .
Nationally, the result is a " no " for changing the name.
Yes went ahead in Munster, but blockages went from " the people of the North ", in far greater number.
( who said there is no reason why the people of the South will get a nice name, given the fact that they have already the sun, etc... :P )


-question 1 : Can we say that the Constitution is close to the people's needs when requesting a national referendum for something that concern only a fraction of all Ireland population ?

-question 2 : Is it fair that one person of Munster has the same voice than one person of Connaught on the matter ?

question 3 : How to deal with the growing population of Munster who feels betrayed ?


PS : my apologies to all Munster people , that is fictional !!!

Not only is it fictional , it is also a stupid analogy .

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Ok. Fictional story now

Let's imagine that, one day , people of Munster wants to change the name of their province because they are fed-up to bear the same name as a smelly cheese .
Most Munster politicians agreed in that, saying that is not a good name and want to change it into " The South Coast ".
Constitution specialists are questioned and the answer is : " A national referendum must be held "
A referendum is therefore held in all Ireland .
Nationally, the result is a " no " for changing the name.
Yes went ahead in Munster, but blockages went from " the people of the North ", in far greater number.
( who said there is no reason why the people of the South will get a nice name, given the fact that they have already the sun, etc... :P )


-question 1 : Can we say that the Constitution is close to the people's needs when requesting a national referendum for something that concern only a fraction of all Ireland population ?

-question 2 : Is it fair that one person of Munster has the same voice than one person of Connaught on the matter ?

question 3 : How to deal with the growing population of Munster who feels betrayed ?


PS : my apologies to all Munster people , that is fictional !!!

Q1. We can say that any decision to change the Irish border impacts the entire population of Ireland as what your are portraying would be to break up the country of Ireland as we know it. If there to be any changes to Ireland's borders then I want to have a say in that decision regardless of whether I live in Munster or not.

Q2. Fair has noting to do with it. Would it be fair that as a proportion of the poplulation, a minority of people would be allowed to break up the country of Ireland as we know it. In Spain's case you have approx 2 million people who voted in the 1st October referendum which represent less than 5% of the population who want to break up the country of Spain as we know it that has existed for the last 500 years?

Q3. That's what the constitution and rule of law are for. The reason why we have peace in Europe is because of constitutional democracy. If you want to change the constitution then it needs to be done within the existing legal framework just like we did in Ireland with the divorce referendum in 1996, just like we will do with the abortion referendum next year and just like we will do if there is ever to be a United Ireland.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Q1. We can say that any decision to change the Irish border impacts the entire population of Ireland as what your are portraying would be to break up the country of Ireland as we know it. If there to be any changes to Ireland's borders then I want to have a say in that decision regardless of whether I live in Munster or not.

Q2. Fair has noting to do with it. Would it be fair that as a proportion of the poplulation, a minority of people would be allowed to break up the country of Ireland as we know it. In Spain's case you have approx 2 million people who voted in the 1st October referendum which represent less than 5% of the population who want to break up the country of Spain as we know it that has existed for the last 500 years?

Q3. That's what the constitution and rule of law are for. The reason why we have peace in Europe is because of constitutional democracy. If you want to change the constitution then it needs to be done within the existing legal framework just like we did in Ireland with the divorce referendum in 1996, just like we will do with the abortion referendum next year and just like we will do if there is ever to be a United Ireland.

I understand your point of view.

I didn't talk about changing the frontiers of Munster, just the name, but since you went down this way, we can keep with that.

1- You said that you want to have your say. Why ? You live in Donegal ( lets say ), what changes will have your life if Munster wants to leave ? Will these changes be of the same importance than the changes people of Munster wants ?

2-. Fair/not fair : I think fairness has a lot of importance here. Like all laws. The Constitution is what it is, but if it rules the country in an unfair way , what is the point ?

3- We have peace in Europe because we are able to make laws that are ( usually ) equitable for the people . And we are able to amend them , erase some and creating new ones for every group to accept them . And we have conflicts when these laws don't stick anymore with the will of a group. It doesn't have to be a political group, or a "territory" group, it could be the LGTB group, for ex.
Two choices from there :
- you try to silent the claim of the group invoking the rule of law, but you resolve nothing at the end : you just postpone the problem.
- you acknowledge the problem , promote dialogue and change the laws accordingly ( amend the Constitution like Ireland does ),and let people express themselves . No risks here, people in modern Europe now accept the referendum results without violence whatever are the results.

A thought :
To be honest, I'm a bit circumspect about some national referendums . Taking about the same-sex marriage referendum, for example, I have difficulties to understand why a granny of the countryside ( for example ) has her voice heard about who a guy she doesn't know has the right to marry or not. I hardly call " fair democracy " a system when someone not concern by the subject is decided for you what is good or bad.... Luckily for the pro-marriage, the result was "yes ". Is a " no " would have been fair ?
During this time, people are not consulted in much important subjects as Irish Water or the banks bail-out that , this time, concern really everybody...

A question : Would you say that the referendum in Scotland was not " fully democratic " , since all the population in UK hasn't express their views on the matter ?

bertie 56

Catalonia campaign for the 21st of Dec new Parliament starting officially tonight 00.00.

17 parties are registered .
Of the 7 main parties that have chances to get seats, there is 3 independentists , 3 " unionnists " , 1 undefined .

One party leader is still in preventive jail for more than a month, another one awaiting a possible extradition and faces the same .
Another one in preventive jail too is no 2 on a list.

feargale

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If Spain says no then it's adiós amigo. The same principle applies to a United Ireland, the whole country gets to decide. That was engrained in the constitution that 90% of the Catalan people voted for.

That's a misrepresentation. All Ireland votes on a United Ireland, but both parts must vote yes for that to come to pass. As long as one part opposes a United Ireland the divorce prevails.

recedite

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Q1. We can say that any decision to change the Irish border impacts the entire population of Ireland as what your are portraying would be to break up the country of Ireland as we know it. If there to be any changes to Ireland's borders then I want to have a say in that decision regardless of whether I live in Munster or not.

How about this one then. Spain annexes Portugal and announces new Constitution covering all of the enlarged Spain.
The Constitution stipulates that Portuguese are free to leave Spain any time they like, if a majority of the people of Spain agree. But the majority don't agree, and never will, because they like having a bit more of the Atlantic coast.
Fair and democratic, yes?

v638sg7k1a92bx

recedite wrote: »

How about this one then. Spain annexes Portugal and announces new Constitution covering all of the enlarged Spain.
The Constitution stipulates that Portuguese are free to leave Spain any time they like, if a majority of the people of Spain agree. But the majority don't agree, and never will, because they like having a bit more of the Atlantic coast.
Fair and democratic, yes?

I fail to see the correlation between a hypothetical situation where Spain invades Portugal and Catalan independence???

v638sg7k1a92bx

feargale wrote: »

That's a misrepresentation. All Ireland votes on a United Ireland, but both parts must vote yes for that to come to pass. As long as one part opposes a United Ireland the divorce prevails.

We covered that in the previous post. You should read the context before you weigh in.

bertie 56

A couple of hours to go before the campaign, so a quick quiz :

The Election Board has forbidden one of the these two things and allowed the other .
Guess !

( answer tomorrow...)

bertie 56

And a quick joke :

Two friends talking :

- How are things in Catalonia ?
- Well , we can't complain ...
- Everything is alright , then !
- No, no, I mean we literally aren't allowed to complain !

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

And a quick joke :

Two friends talking :

- How are things in Catalonia ?
- Well , we can't complain ...
- Everything is alright , then !
- No, no, I mean we literally aren't allowed to complain !

If complaining means rigging elections then no you are not allowed complain.

This playing the victim has to stop.

bertie 56

Campaign starts today.

Interesting to see what is the money spend for each party in the campaign .
More interesting even is the amount spend to have one seat in the Parliament.
( possible number of seats taken from last poll from El Espagnol ( Spanish paper ))

CUP ( indep.) : 0.4 M - 8 possible seats = 50.000 € per seat .

Junts per Catalunya ( indep) : 1.4 M - 25-27 possible seats = 54.000 € per seat .

ERC ( indep) : 1.8 M - 27- 35 possible seats = 58.000 € per seat .

Cuitadans ( unionists ) : 2.1 M - 29-30 possible seats = 71.000 € per seat .

PSC ( unionists ) : 1.7 M - 20-22 possible seats = 81.000 € per seat .

Catalunya en Comu ( no def. ) : 0.7 M - 7 possible seats = 100.000 € per seat .

PP ( unionists ) : 1.8 M - 7-8 possible seats = 240.000 € per seat .

Interesting, no ?

bertie 56

bertie 56 wrote: »

A couple of hours to go before the campaign, so a quick quiz :

The Election Board has forbidden one of the these two things and allowed the other .
Guess !

( answer tomorrow...)

Alright, answer is number one ...

The color yellow has been forbidden following a complain by PP.

Yep, a color !!!


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/29/barcelonas-yellow-fountains-banned-link-catalan-separatism/

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-42219702/why-the-colour-yellow-is-banned-in-catalonia


During this time, violent ultras walk around freely ...

http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/sociedad/el-juez-deja-en-libertad-a-el-alfarrasi-lider-de-yomus-por-las-agresiones-ultras-en-valencia-el-9-o_201712015a2185600cf2b940af59f087.html

recedite

All bananas could be rounded up and arrested on charges of sedition :eek:

bertie 56

recedite wrote: »

All bananas could be rounded up and arrested on charges of sedition :eek:

Big panic now in all Spain to find quickly a solution for the public letter boxes... :D:D

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94687647@N00/4490606642

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If complaining means rigging elections then no you are not allowed complain.

This playing the victim has to stop.

Just for saying , the Spanish Electoral Commission won't allow International Observers the day of the election in Catalonia:

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/12/04/actualidad/1512405278_308454.html?id_externo_rsoc=TW_CM


Talking about rigging the elections, here is one for you :;)

( legend says : the electoral race is starting )

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Just for saying , the Spanish Electoral Commission won't allow International Observers the day of the election in Catalonia:

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/12/04/actualidad/1512405278_308454.html?id_externo_rsoc=TW_CM


Talking about rigging the elections, here is one for you :;)

( legend says : the electoral race is starting )

International observers i.e. Sinn Fein

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

International observers i.e. Sinn Fein

Whichever who wanted to be part of , I suppose.
I don't see any problem with that.
( Sinn Fein was already there for the referendum ) .
Anyway, international observers has been banned now by Spain : something that you don't even see in whichever banana Republic ....

But plenty of other observers will be there , in Catalonia and abroad in the embassies.
Happy to see that 18 volunteers are already ready in Dublin Embassy !

https://catalansalmon.com/campanyes/observadors/

marienbad

bertie 56 wrote: »

Whichever who wanted to be part of , I suppose.
I don't see any problem with that.
( Sinn Fein was already there for the referendum ) .
Anyway, international observers has been banned now by Spain : something that you don't even see in whichever banana Republic ....

But plenty of other observers will be there , in Catalonia and abroad in the embassies.
Happy to see that 18 volunteers are already ready in Dublin Embassy !

https://catalansalmon.com/campanyes/observadors/

Do we have international observers at our elections ?

bertie 56

marienbad wrote: »

Do we have international observers at our elections ?

Do we forbid international observers at our elections ?

" EVER since the late 1990s, international observation of elections has become so widespread that refusing to admit monitors is almost an outright admission of fraud. Even autocrats such as Russia's Vladimir Putin, Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe and Belarus's Alexander Lukashenko invite foreign monitors."

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/06/economist-explains-3

marienbad

bertie 56 wrote: »

Do we forbid international observers at our elections ?

" EVER since the late 1990s, international observation of elections has become so widespread that refusing to admit monitors is almost an outright admission of fraud. Even autocrats such as Russia's Vladimir Putin, Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe and Belarus's Alexander Lukashenko invite foreign monitors."

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/06/economist-explains-3

For once could you answer the question you were asked ? Do we have international monitors at our elections ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Do we forbid international observers at our elections ?

" EVER since the late 1990s, international observation of elections has become so widespread that refusing to admit monitors is almost an outright admission of fraud. Even autocrats such as Russia's Vladimir Putin, Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe and Belarus's Alexander Lukashenko invite foreign monitors."

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/06/economist-explains-3

I say let them in, make sure the indepes don't steal the ballot boxes and sleep in the polling stations again...

Will there be a voter list this time?

bertie 56

marienbad wrote: »

For once could you answer the question you were asked ? Do we have international monitors at our elections ?

I've check only the OCSE , and apparently yes :

http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ireland/221796


According to the other article, surprisingly enough, international observers cover 80 % of the elections around the world.

USA had international observers from EU last presidential elections, for ex.

http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/usa/246356

So, it doesn't seem to be something exceptional to have some international observers at an election .

What is exceptional, though, is that the country refuse these observers.

A bit like if they have something to hide, no ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

marienbad wrote: »

For once could you answer the question you were asked ? Do we have international monitors at our elections ?

They can't answer the questions which is why they are posting memes from all over the internet.

They have yet to give a single reason as to why Catalonia should be an independent country. After X amount of pages on this thread not one poster has been able to explain what rights Catalonia would gain that it doesn't already have as being part of Spain. Not one!

Trying to get them to accept objectionable facts is a impossible, you have to ask at what stage does the truth not matter to these people anymore.
For example, they are already trying to maintain that there is or is going to be voter suppression in the upcoming election on the 21st. By doing this they are feathering their nest for a fall in the event that the elections don't go as planned so that they can cry foul and say there was oppression, suppression etc. . But leaving that aside, they don't see the irony in their comments when it was the pro independence volunteers who took custody of the ballot boxes on 1st October and physically barricaded themselves in the polling stations by occupying and sleeping in them the night before. Not to mention that there was no census, no voter list, no legal oversight and in some constituencies there were more votes cast than there were people. Where were the international observers then? When these facts are pointed out they just ignore it and circle back to saying something about Franco and fascism.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

They can't answer the questions which is why they are posting memes from all over the internet.

Question answered half an hour before you've post.
Maybe you should read the posts ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

On top of what some posters wrote here already , 20 more reasons here .
Enjoy the reading ...

http://diario16.com/motivos-del-si/

Posting links from all over the internet doesn't work. That link refers to a load of nonsense about how Catalonia would produce its own renewable energy, about how early people in Spain leave school and how there would be no fascists in the new Catalonia. It's all ideological nonsense. Why is it so difficult to explain what Rights Catalonia would gain by being an independent country that they don't already have as being part of Spain. For being such an oppressed people surely this would be easy for you to come up with?

The indepes love to throw around the word fascist and yet they don't see the contradiction in their own nationalist movement that is trying to instil an ideology in every part of Catalonia by forcing people to speak the language, driving out any Spanish influence by refusing to teach Spanish in children's schools and putting up a border to create a new country and saying look at these people over there in Spain they are the cause of all our problems if only we had our own country things would be so much better.

Where have we seen this in history before?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

That link refers to a load of nonsense about how Catalonia would produce its own renewable energy, about how early people in Spain leave school and how there would be no fascists in the new Catalonia. It's all ideological nonsense.

You are not asked to be convinced by any of these propositions Catalonia is making.
You have perfectly the right to find them not at your taste, the same way that Catalonia people has the right to find them suitable for their country, and has totally the right to be able to put these laws in place in their own country if they wish .

Here is another law from that has been passed at the majority in Catalonia Parliament, and has been shut down 2 days ago by Spain.
You can add this to the list of rights Catalonia would gain by being an independent country.
It was a law about climate change .
( once again, no need to agree on this law for yourself...)

https://www.naciodigital.cat/noticia/143994/tc/tamb/suspen/llei/catalana/canvi/climatic

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

putting up a border to create a new country and saying look at these people over there in Spain United Kingdom , they are the cause of all our problems if only we had our own country things would be so much better.

Where have we seen this in history before?

Mmmm... Ireland 100 years ago ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

You are not asked to be convinced by any of these propositions Catalonia is making.
You have perfectly the right to find them not at your taste, the same way that Catalonia people has the right to find them suitable for their country, and has totally the right to be able to put these laws in place in their own country if they wish.

Every country has it own domestic problems, budget deficits, political scandals etc. You're deluded if you think that this new Catalonia is going to be some ideological paradise, they're already up to their neck in corruption. Not a great start to your new country.

You seem to be confusing very separate arguments and have no arguments on the actual merits of independence.

bertie 56 wrote: »

Here is another law from that has been passed at the majority in Catalonia Parliament, and has been shut down 2 days ago by Spain.
You can add this to the list of rights Catalonia would gain by being an independent country.
It was a law about climate change .
( once again, no need to agree on this law for yourself...)

https://www.naciodigital.cat/noticia/143994/tc/tamb/suspen/llei/catalana/canvi/climatic

These are not rights. You seem to be confusing your sense of entitlement with fundamental human rights.

bertie 56 wrote: »

Mmmm... Ireland 100 years ago ?

You won't endear yourself to any Irish people by making ignorant statements like that. But I suppose you're right if you ignore British imperialism, the famine, emigration, internment, the black and tans etc etc etc.