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Catalan independence referendum, 2017
Comments
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Celia Late Troop wrote: »Every country has it own domestic problems, budget deficits, political scandals etc. You're deluded if you think that this new Catalonia is going to be some ideological paradise, they're already up to their neck in corruption. Not a great start to your new country.You seem to be confusing very separate arguments and have no arguments on the actual merits of independence. These are not rights. You seem to be confusing your sense of entitlement with fundamental human rights. You won't endear yourself to any Irish people by making ignorant statements like that. But I suppose you're right if you ignore British imperialism, the famine, emigration, internment, the black and tans etc etc etc.
"ideological paradise " ? Who talked about this ? Just making things better will already be a good start...
" corruption " ? I won't put you here the number that the corruption of PP , the party you defend , has cost to the Spanish State , you will have to run to the shop to get a 56" inch screen to read it... :P
" Rights" doesn't necessarily mean " human rights" , that's two separate things....;)
I'm not here to please ,there is beauty contests for that ...
. I'm surely more ignorant than you about Irish history, but still, I know the differences between Ireland 100 years ago and Catalonia today , don't worry for me...
Once you are here and prolific, tell us a bit what Catalonia would gain by staying with Spain ?0 -
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"ideological paradise " ? Who talked about this ? Just making things better will already be a good start...
And what makes you think a new country will automatically be the solution to your problems? You have no currency, no army, no recognition, no membership of the EU and no legitimacy. Doesn't sound like a good start." corruption " ? I won't put you here the number that the corruption of PP , the party you defend , has cost to the Spanish State , you will have to run to the shop to get a 56" inch screen to read it... :P
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the PP, you think that just because there is corruption in one party that it justifies corruption in another? What I'm saying is that the protagonists who are advocating independence have been robbing handfuls from the people of Catalonia for years (3% to be exact), stealing from the very people who they are asking to follow them into the unknown and simultaneously chanting their mantra "Madrid is robbing you". Schools are bad in Catalonia "Madrid is robbing you". Poor public health system in Catalonia, meanwhile you can drive into Valencia and receive better treatment "Madrid is robbing you", Wages are low "Madrid is robbing you".
Your response to all this is to say our corrupt politicians aren't as bad as theirs and swallowing the BS that Catalan politicians are telling you about how Madrid is the reason for all of life's problems and the answer to this is to create an independent country which they will be the leaders of, all the while they are keeping 3% of all public projects in Catalonia for themselves!!! . If I was a Catalan, I would be very suspicious of the people who were stealing from me who are also asking me to make them leaders of their new country.
You need to look closer to home for the reason for your problems." Rights" doesn't necessarily mean " human rights" , that's two separate things....;)
I'm not here to please ,there is beauty contests for that ... . And I know the differences between Ireland 100 years ago and Catalonia today , don't worry for me...
Once you are here and prolific, tell us a bit what Catalonia would gain by staying with Spain ?
Unfortunately I can't prove a negative. That's like asking me to prove that God doesn't exist. It's up to you who is maintains that the Catalan people are oppressed what rights you will have as an independent country that you don't already have as being part of Spain.0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »And what makes you think a new country will automatically be the solution to your problems? You have no currency, no army, no recognition, no membership of the EU and no legitimacy. Doesn't sound like a good start.
All new countries did start like that . Tell me if I'm wrong but I think Ireland did start like that as well ... And there is hundreds of other examples around the world , specially during the decolonization times...
I don't say it won't be a challenge, but it's a great challenge.
Catalonia has plenty of resources to make the country economically viable.
I trust Catalonia people for this.
I know you don't, but future will tell...Celia Late Troop wrote: »You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the PP, you think that just because there is corruption in one party that it justifies corruption in another? What I'm saying is that the protagonists who are advocating independence have been robbing handfuls from the people of Catalonia for years (3% to be exact), stealing from the very people who they are asking to follow them into the unknown and simultaneously chanting their mantra "Madrid is robbing you".
The 3% you are talking is a 15 years old story, his authors has been heavily condemn for this, and has nothing to do in term of scale with what is happening now in Spain with the PP.
As said before, if there is corruption now in Catalonia, I condemn it.
So far, I haven't seen something recently at a big scale.
And no, if there is corruption in one party , it does not justifies corruption in another .
But Spain with PP , as the most corrupted political party in Europe ( we are talking Billions, here, you know that ) has to do a big clean up !
It 's been 7 years that the different fiscal judges are looking for a certain " M.Rajoy" who appears in the secret accounts of the PP, El Caja B.
They are still not sure if it's Mariano Rajoy, the Prime Minister of Spain...
We are talking about a Mafia- type of organisation, and it's not me or PP opponents who says this...
It's really a big joke, so it is....Celia Late Troop wrote: »Unfortunately I can't prove a negative. That's like asking me to prove that God doesn't exist. It's up to you who is maintains that the Catalan people are oppressed what rights you will have as an independent country that you don't already have as being part of Spain.
Thank you for your constructive contribution ! 0 -
All new countries did start like that . Tell me if I'm wrong but I think Ireland did start like that as well ... And there is hundreds of other examples around the world , specially during the decolonization times...
I don't say it won't be a challenge, but it's a great challenge.
Catalonia has plenty of resources to make the country economically viable.
I trust Catalonia people for this.
I know you don't, but future will tell...
The 3% you are talking is a 15 years old story, his authors has been heavily condemn for this, and has nothing to do in term of scale with what is happening now in Spain with the PP.
As said before, if there is corruption now in Catalonia, I condemn it.
So far, I haven't seen something recently at a big scale.
And no, if there is corruption in one party , it does not justifies corruption in another .
But Spain with PP , as the most corrupted political party in Europe ( we are talking Billions, here, you know that ) has to do a big clean up !
It 's been 7 years that the different fiscal judges are looking for a certain " M.Rajoy" who appears in the secret accounts of the PP, El Caja B.
They are still not sure if it's Mariano Rajoy, the Prime Minister of Spain...
We are talking about a Mafia- type of organisation, and it's not me or PP opponents who says this...
It's really a big joke, so it is....
Thank you for your constructive contribution !
I'm sorry but this is just more rambling. You seem unable to articulate why you want to be an independent country without mentioning the PP. What exactly are you offering people by being part of this new country? What will the criteria to be a Catalan citizen, do you have to be born in Catalonia or just live there?
The onus is you to explain to people what are the benefits of creating a new country as that what you are asking people to vote for.0 -
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Brendan Bendar wrote: »Are we there yet?
No, Brussels first .
A big demonstration under the watchword " Wake up, Europe " is on his way, from Catalonia to Brussels for tomorrow ...
Thousands of Catalans are expected ...
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Given how Madrid has handled things it wouldn't surprise me if he did. However we shall have to wait and see. As a certain Irish politician used to say, the only poll that matters is the one on election day.
Yes, when you see the evolution of the separatism feeling in Catalonia in the last few years, it will be only fair to erect a statue of M.Rajoy himself in one of the " plazas " of Barcelona .
With the words " To one of the great helpers of the independence ":D:D
2 weeks to go, with something new everyday . Watch the tricks !!!
And as another one says : " it's at the end of the mart that you count the dung..."
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An Ciarraioch wrote: »Remarkably, it seems Puigdemont could yet win the election:
http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171206/encuesta-elecciones-cataluna-catalunya-2017-6477568
The European arrest warrant for Puigdemont and the 4 ministers has been dropped yesterday . That is a big step out from Spain.
The international and national arrest warrant is still active, and the European one can be re-activeted at any time.
That mean they can't go home without facing preventive jail time ( up to 4 years without trial ) and 30 years of jail after that .
It could be seen as a " clemency " measure , but it is not.
Belgium did already took off some charges , and was in the way to take off some more .
That would have mean sending the 5 Government members to face trial in Madrid with some lighter charges .
By lifting this arrest warrant, Spain wants to keep the integrality of the charges, in order to condemn the 5 with some as heavy as possible charges .
As well, by doing so , Spain target is to try to avoid international shame...
6 political prisoners has been released on Monday with a bail of 600.000 euros.
4 more are still in preventive jail in Madrid for more than a month now , the decision to maintain them in jail has been pronounced last Monday too.
The campaign for the elections is still on the way, with some candidates in jail, some other in forced exile ...
Spanish democracy at best...
https://www.ft.com/content/a5f48e42-d9ae-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b4820 -
The European arrest warrant for Puigdemont and the 4 ministers has been dropped yesterday . That is a big step out from Spain.
The international and national arrest warrant is still active, and the European one can be re-activeted at any time.
That mean they can't go home without facing preventive jail time ( up to 4 years without trial ) and 30 years of jail after that .
It could be seen as a " clemency " measure , but it is not.
Belgium did already took off some charges , and was in the way to take off some more .
That would have mean sending the 5 Government members to face trial in Madrid with some lighter charges .
By lifting this arrest warrant, Spain wants to keep the integrality of the charges, in order to condemn the 5 with some as heavy as possible charges .
As well, by doing so , Spain target is to try to avoid international shame...
6 political prisoners has been released on Monday with a bail of 600.000 euros.
4 more are still in preventive jail in Madrid for more than a month now , the decision to maintain them in jail has been pronounced last Monday too.
The campaign for the elections is still on the way, with some candidates in jail, some other in forced exile ...
Spanish democracy at best...
https://www.ft.com/content/a5f48e42-d9ae-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482
They are politicians in prison not political prisoners.
They attempted a coup and it failed, now they are crying foul because it blew up in their face and they have to flee to Brussels and the EU. They don't seem to see the hypocrisy that by declaring independence they are also leaving the EU, the same institution they are asking to intervene in their dispute. All of the arguments for independence are littered with hypocrisy and without merit. This is the whole problem with the independence movement, they want to have everything both ways.0 -
The way Madrid has handled the Cataluña affair over the years has always encouraged a surge of nationalistsGiven how Madrid has handled things it wouldn't surprise me if he did. However we shall have to wait and see. As a certain Irish politician used to say, the only poll that matters is the one on election day.
No, politicians in prison.6 political prisoners has been released on Monday with a bail of 600.000 euros.
Did they do crowdfunding like Artur Mas to pay the bail? 0 -
All new countries did start like that . Tell me if I'm wrong but I think Ireland did start like that as well ... And there is hundreds of other examples around the world , specially during the decolonization times...
I don't say it won't be a challenge, but it's a great challenge.
Catalonia has plenty of resources to make the country economically viable.
I trust Catalonia people for this.
I know you don't, but future will tell...
The 3% you are talking is a 15 years old story, his authors has been heavily condemn for this, and has nothing to do in term of scale with what is happening now in Spain with the PP.
As said before, if there is corruption now in Catalonia, I condemn it.
So far, I haven't seen something recently at a big scale.
And no, if there is corruption in one party , it does not justifies corruption in another .
But Spain with PP , as the most corrupted political party in Europe ( we are talking Billions, here, you know that ) has to do a big clean up !
It 's been 7 years that the different fiscal judges are looking for a certain " M.Rajoy" who appears in the secret accounts of the PP, El Caja B.
They are still not sure if it's Mariano Rajoy, the Prime Minister of Spain...
We are talking about a Mafia- type of organisation, and it's not me or PP opponents who says this...
It's really a big joke, so it is....
Thank you for your constructive contribution !
If you're Spanish is as good as you think, hopefully you can understand this.
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Did they do crowdfunding like Artur Mas to pay the bail?
Ah, yes, I remember that ! Yes, in 2014, when Artur Mas who was the President of Catalonia at the time organized a consultative referendum about Catalonia independence .
Catalonia did vote for the " yes" at 80% , and " no" at 5% at the time ...
Of course, referendum forbidden by the Spanish Central Government, and following a prosecution , he got fined 36.500 euros for that .
I'm not surprise he did benefit of the Catalan people solidarity to pay the fine ...
This time as well, Catalan people has show solidarity towards their political prisoners.
For example, a huge concert of 50.000 people was organized in the Barcelona Olympic Stadium few days ago to raise money .
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The face on Junqueras ...Celia Late Troop wrote: »If you're Spanish is as good as you think, hopefully you can understand this.
Lord I'm sick of their lies
You mean €5.25 millionsAh, yes, I remember that ! Yes, in 2014, when Artur Mas who was the President of Catalonia at the time organized a consultative referendum about Catalonia independence .Of course, referendum forbidden by the Spanish Central Government, and following a prosecution , he got fined 36.500 euros for that .
Catalonia did vote for the " yes" at 80% , and " no" at 5% at the time .
I'm not surprise he did benefit of the Catalan people solidarity to pay the bail ...
This time as well, Catalan people has show solidarity towards their political prisoners.
For example, a huge concert of 50.000 people was organized in the Barcelona Olympic Stadium few days ago to raise money .
Pro independence are very blind and naive to give money to that pack of corrupts0 -
The face on Junqueras ...
Lord I'm sick of their lies
You mean €5.25 millions
Pro independence are very blind and naive to give money to that pack of corrupts
At least they have stop giving their voices to the PP, the more corrupt political party in Europe ! Despite the vast amount of money put in the campaign ( a quarter of a Million for each seat ! ) , they go from 11 seats to 6 or even 5, according to the polls !:D:D
Fenomenal, as said La Cospedal !
Bail ? Are you sure it is a bail ?
If you want people to understand you, the best is to use the proper terms ...
Anyway, this money has been used to pay the 2014 referendum.
Nothing extraordinary !
Here some details :
construction of an institutional web page (14,837.60 euros); voting material (70,532.08); acquisition of laptops for polling stations (828,171.42); insurance policy for volunteers (1,409.26); computer support (1,106,185.77) and transmission of information (307,962.71)0 -
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At least they have stop giving their voices to the PP, the more corrupt political party in Europe ! Despite the vast amount of money put in the campaign ( a quarter of a Million for each seat ! ) , they go from 11 seats to 6 or even 5, according to the polls !:D:D
Fenomenal, as said La Cospedal !
Bail ? Are you sure it is a bail ?
If you want people to understand you, the best is to use the proper terms ...
Anyway, this money has been used to pay the 2014 referendum.
Nothing extraordinary !
Here some details :
construction of an institutional web page (14,837.60 euros); voting material (70,532.08); acquisition of laptops for polling stations (828,171.42); insurance policy for volunteers (1,409.26); computer support (1,106,185.77) and transmission of information (307,962.71)
I fail to see the argument you are trying to make by linking the number of seats to the amount of spent on a campaign, if they have less seats then it would be expected to see an increase in spending which is also consistent with other parties in the region and considering they are the largest party in Spain could you imagine the outrage if they didn't spend anything, you would be the first one to accuse them of not having an interest in Catalonia because they spend so little. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. Another example of indepes wanting everything both ways.
Cuitadans ( unionists ) : 2.1 M
ERC ( indep) : 1.8 M
PSC ( unionists ) : 1.7 M
PP ( unionists ) : 1.8 M
Is there a voting regulation in Catalonia that the campaign spending should be linked to the number of seats? What exactly is the argument that you are trying to make here other than talking about anything other than the merits of independence. The independence movement is like a swimming pool in that respect, most of the noise comes from the shallow end.0 -
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Ah, yes, I remember that ! Yes, in 2014, when Artur Mas who was the President of Catalonia at the time organized a consultative referendum about Catalonia independence .
Catalonia did vote for the " yes" at 80% , and " no" at 5% at the time ...
Of course, referendum forbidden by the Spanish Central Government, and following a prosecution , he got fined 36.500 euros for that .
I'm not surprise he did benefit of the Catalan people solidarity to pay the fine ...
This time as well, Catalan people has show solidarity towards their political prisoners.
For example, a huge concert of 50.000 people was organized in the Barcelona Olympic Stadium few days ago to raise money .
Posting pictures of crowds standing in stadiums does not enhance your arguments. Why don't you tell us in your own words why Catalonia should be an independent country as opposed to posting articles from el pais?0 -
Yesterday in Barcelona, 12.000 unionists for a demonstration to support the Spanish Constitution.
That was the birthday of the Spanish Constitution. A happy birthday, as we can see...
As in the game " Where is Wally " : find the one who smile !!! 0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »If you're Spanish is as good as you think, hopefully you can understand this.The face on Junqueras ...
Lord I'm sick of their lies
You mean €5.25 millions
Pro independence are very blind and naive to give money to that pack of corrupts
If only we could get subtitles to that and other videos so more people outside of Spain could understand what is really going on in Catalonia and the level of corruption that the main players are involved in. It will be very interesting to see if they continue to blindly listen to their lies when the Andorran banking secrecy is lifted next month.0 -
Yesterday in Barcelona, 12.000 unionists for a demonstration to support the Spanish Constitution.That was the birthday of the Spanish Constitution. A happy birthday, as we can see...
As in the game " Where is Wally " : find the one who smile !!!
These protests you keep posting pictures of are meaningless. It's the turnout at the polling stations that count.0 -
Today in Brussels, at 1300 km from home ( 800 miles ) , Catalans went down massively in the streets .
The organization was expecting 20.000 people .
Belgium Police had to change the demonstration route to be able to welcome everybody.
45.000 people at the end ( Police of Brussels account )
Brutal !!!
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Today in Brussels, at 1300 km from home ( 800 miles ) , Catalans went down massively in the streets .
The organization was expecting 20.000 people .
Belgium Police had to change the demonstration route to be able to welcome everybody.
45.000 people at the end ( Police of Brussels account )
Brutal !!!
Did they travel to Brussels with their Catalan passport?
"Europe Wake Up"? I thought they didn't want to be part of Europe?0 -
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