Catalan independence referendum, 2017

CroFag

Okay, tnx, but what about the business atmosphere?

v638sg7k1a92bx

CroFag wrote: »

Okay, tnx, but what about the business atmosphere?

2,000 companies moving their registered office out of Catalonia would give you an indicaion of the atmosphere. It's business as usual but proceeding with caution. Large investments have been shelved or stalled.

bertie 56

CroFag wrote: »

I'm interested what's the business situation like in Barcelona, are the big companies still leaving, are there any recent signs of unemployment rising?

Will the elections in two weeks & the new government be constituted in peaceful atmosphere?

Hi there,

Some information can be found here :

This one is from September and gives a general idea :

https://www.ft.com/content/62118282-a35a-11e7-b797-b61809486fe2

This one is more about the current situation . It is from mid November.

https://www.ft.com/content/da70a2f0-bb04-11e7-8c12-5661783e5589

All two are from the Financial Times.

Beware of some numbers in general : some comes from the Spanish side, which has all interest to have the situation looked more catastrophic than it is in reality .
Cross-check with other figures to be sure...

About the companies that left :
Some companies left alright . But they have moved only their letter box. The " production lines " and workforces stayed in Catalonia.

Just a bit of politics but it is important :
The companies did left their registered addresses helped by the Spanish Governement, with some receiving pressure ( Seat for ex ).
The last month, the Spanish Government turned tail and asked the companies to stop leaving .
All this to say that if some companies left Catalonia, it hasn't been only for economical reasons.

Elections :
There is no way the catastrophic scenario described by the previous poster happens.
The Catalan people wants to vote and since , this time, Spain will let them, there is no reason the elections will not be smooth.
The Catalan people are democratic and above all peaceful : the result will surely be respected.

If the independentists get a majority , there is a little risk that some un-happy " unionnists" will fall into provocation , as seen during previous demonstrations. ( although these came mainly from Spain and not locally ).

In long term, it is hard to know : it will depends of how easy it will be to make a new government : but this depends of the elections results !
And second thing, which is key, I think , is to know when Spain will lift the article 155 on Catalonia. ( so far, they said that they want to maintain it if the independentists are in power ) .

So, I would say, although I'm not economist or in risk management :
small business: ok,
big business : wait and see ...

Hope that helps a bit...

By curiosity, what type of business is it ? (here or in MP )

Barna77

bertie 56 wrote: »

At least they have stop giving their voices to the PP, the more corrupt political party in Europe ! Despite the vast amount of money put in the campaign ( a quarter of a Million for each seat ! ) , they go from 11 seats to 6 or even 5, according to the polls ! :D:D
Fenomenal, as said La Cospedal !



Bail ? Are you sure it is a bail ?
If you want people to understand you, the best is to use the proper terms ...

Fianza = Bail

Yeah PP and all their lot are rotten and an embarrassment to Spain, I'll give you that... and people keep voting them

bertie 56 wrote: »

As in the game " Where is Wally " : find the one who smile !!!

I see one

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If only we could get subtitles to that and other videos so more people outside of Spain could understand what is really going on in Catalonia and the level of corruption that the main players are involved in. It will be very interesting to see if they continue to blindly listen to their lies when the Andorran banking secrecy is lifted next month.

There was the video answering to the "Help Catalonia" one, it's in English.


The only good thing about this mess is that flying to Barcelona is ridiculously cheap now.
Well done Puigdemont

v638sg7k1a92bx

Barna77 wrote: »

There was the video answering to the "Help Catalonia" one, it's in English.

The original "Help Catalonia" video was nauseating to watch. Complete over the top propaganda. Judging by her acting you would be forgiven for thinking that she was in the Gaza Strip.

Here it is for anyone who hasn't seen it. (English)

v638sg7k1a92bx

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The original "Help Catalonia" video was nauseating to watch. Complete over the top propaganda. Judging by her acting you would be forgiven for thinking that she was in the Gaza Strip.

Here it is for anyone who hasn't seen it. (English)

Here is a response to that video, also in English

Barna77

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The original "Help Catalonia" video was nauseating to watch. Complete over the top propaganda. Judging by her acting you would be forgiven for thinking that she was in the Gaza Strip.

Someone please give her some awards for her magnificent scripted role in a current affairs drama :rolleyes:


The video I was talking about, giving an ironic answer to that helpless woman

I had seen before the video of the little girl been called a whore.
Disgusting

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

The video I was talking about, giving an ironic answer to that helpless woman

Good video, not very original , but it has the merit to show in a clever way her point of view.

I don't share her ideas, but still, she has every right to express herself.


About the other one from the " stupid Yankee ", as he call himself : let's say that it's for a , ermmmm, " different " public ...

And I understand better some posts here after seeing that this video could be taken as a " reference " for them :rolleyes:

bertie 56

New poll today .

Unionists parties gets 43.8 %
Independentists parties loses a bit compares to 2015 , with 47.21 %.
An absolute majority is not garanteed.
C's and PSC are on the increase .
Podem stable.
Complete wipe-out of the PP with 5.5 %

bertie 56

Good article in the Guardian this morning, about the March for Democracy in Brussels

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/07/carles-puigdemont-hailed-as-hero-at-catalan-march-in-brussels?CMP=share_btn_tw

In Catalonia , Spanish Electoral Commission has prohibited Catalan TV3 to broadcast live yesterday's march in Brussels .
As said Joan Ramon Vallve , journalist at TV3 : “I have been working at TV3 for 30 years. Today is possibly the saddest day. We must not kneel down, friends.”


Fair play (1)to the Brussels Police. What a difference with the Guardia Civil ! ( see picture )
Fair play (2) to the Catalonia firefighters who, after the march, have come to donate blood to the hospital of the Red Cross of Brussels ( see picture )
"That the only blood that is spilled is to save lives"


Ah, and last thing : Xavier García Albiol , head candidate of the PP in Catalonia has declared that he will ban pro-independence flags in public spaces if he wins the elections. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Good video, not very original , but it has the merit to show in a clever way her point of view.

I don't share her ideas, but still, she has every right to express herself.


About the other one from the " stupid Yankee ", as he call himself : let's say that it's for a , ermmmm, " different " public ...

And I understand better some posts here after seeing that this video could be taken as a " reference " for them :rolleyes:

But they are statements of fact he is making as opposed to the Help Catalonia video which is just an emotional response and full of inaccuracies.

Debating with the independence movement is having argument based on evidence versus emotion.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

New poll today .

Unionists parties gets 43.8 %
Independentists parties loses a bit compares to 2015 , with 47.21 %.
An absolute majority is not garanteed.
C's and PSC are on the increase .
Podem stable.
Complete wipe-out of the PP with 5.5 %

So where is the majority of people who want independence? If these polls are an accurate reflection of the results then it just confirms that there is no case for Catalan independence.

Barna77

bertie 56 wrote: »

In Catalonia , Spanish Electoral Commission has prohibited Catalan TV3 to broadcast live yesterday's march in Brussels .
As said Joan Ramon Vallve , journalist at TV3 : “I have been working at TV3 for 30 years. Today is possibly the saddest day. We must not kneel down, friends.”


Fair play (1)to the Brussels Police. What a difference with the Guardia Civil ! ( see picture )
Fair play (2) to the Catalonia firefighters who, after the march, have come to donate blood to the hospital of the Red Cross of Brussels ( see picture )
"That the only blood that is spilled is to save lives"

In a couple of generations they will be claiming Brussels as part of Catalonia! :eek:

I'm crying (invisible tears) for TV3

v638sg7k1a92bx

Barna77 wrote: »

In a couple of generations they will be claiming Brussels as part of Catalonia! :eek:

Not so sure, their language is called Flamenco

Barna77

Hahahahahaahaha

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So where is the majority of people who want independence? If these polls are an accurate reflection of the results then it just confirms that there is no case for Catalan independence.

It's a poll, not more, not less. As any poll, it doesn't have the purpose of replacing the final results.
I've post it like I did post any other polls, whatever the data that is in.
I'm for the people to express themselves, and if the 21 of Dec , there is a majority of unionists parties, fair enough, no problem for me.
Once the election is done in a clean way, and without risk of a baton kick when you go voting...
It is what Catalan people has always wanted anyway...

And yes, you are right : " If these polls are an accurate reflection of the results then it just confirms that there is no case for Catalan independence ", I agree with you.

The only problem is if the Catalan vote in majority for parties that defend a referendum and the Independence,like they did in 2015 : we know already what will happen...they said it already : there is no case for independence neither, according to Spain.

Democracy versus fascism ...

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

Hahahahahaahaha

Saw it already, that is a funny one. Impressive singing, even for a not-flamenco singer.

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

Yeah PP and all their lot are rotten and an embarrassment to Spain, I'll give you that... and people keep voting them

I straight away thought of this one when I read your post ...
Jejeje ....

From El Jueves

bertie 56

This one , just because it is funny altogether...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4F1t6b8V68

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

But they are statements of fact he is making as opposed to the Help Catalonia video which is just an emotional response and full of inaccuracies.

Debating with the independence movement is having argument based on evidence versus emotion.

Here is one fact :D:D

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

I'm crying (invisible tears) for TV3

Well, you shouldn't make a laugh of it . I mean it .
Because if today it is something that is convenient for you , it can happen one day that it will be your turn .

You never know...

We shouldn't be happy when censorship falls on. Whatever the side we are , whatever the reason , whatever the help it could bring to what we defend...

Think that , one day, it could be your ideas that could be censored...

( I'm not trying to support my case now. Really . I say this out of the debate we have here. Hope you'll understand that )

Brendan Bendar

Are we there.........yet?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Here is one fact :D:D

Total rubbish, where did you pull this from and who carried out this survey, I notice how you conveniently cut off the bottom of the picture?

Anyone with half a brain would understand the economic and social repercussions of an independent Catalonia outside of the EU so what you're suggesting that is a GROSS misrepresentation of reality.

For example, what currency would this new country use? They will be outside of the EU so will have to get in line behind Turkey for an application before it could join the Eurozone, national debt would need to be below 60.0% of Gross National Product as a start.
Their currency will have no value because they can't use the Euro. They are surrounded by the largest economic bloc in the world so the cost of living would rise and their currency would plummet in value. Would you keep your savings in CaixaBank not knowing what the currency would be worth the next day? This means there would be a run on the banks so that their savings are not wiped out over night and converted into a weaker currency.

If what you are suggesting is true (which I expect is some half ass poll carried out by a group of indepes perroflautas) then it is a damning indictment of the education system in Catalonia which also discriminates against Spanish people by refusing to teach them in the native language also teaches them that the erbro river rises in a foreign land.

Catalonia has the honour of being the only place in the Western world where the majority of the population don't have the option of enrolling their children in schools that teach in their native language.

From the Finacial Times which you have posted many links to so I'm sure you don't dispute their journalism (unless it doesn't agree with your side of the argument)

https://www.ft.com/content/076144d0-6824-11e5-97d0-1456a776a4f5

A third factor is the Catalan education system, which places great emphasis on the use of Catalan over Spanish, and which teaches — at least in the view of Madrid officials — an idiosyncratic version of Spanish and Catalan history. Whatever one makes of this charge, it seems reasonable to assume that a young person taught by Catalans in the Catalan language will feel less of a bond with Spain than his or her parents or grandparents, many of whom moved to the region from other parts of the country.

An idiosyncratic version of Spanish and Catalan history? A very politically correct way of putting it.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Total rubbish, where did you pull this from and who carried out this survey, I notice how you conveniently cut off the bottom of the picture?

No, not my style really :rolleyes:.

When I write something, I can back it up with facts.

I don't post rubbish , except for the laugh.

I found the picture like I posted it. I didn't crop it .

A few clicks on Google will bring you to this page :

http://ceo.gencat.cat/ceop/AppJava/pages/home/fitxaEstudi.html?colId=6408&lastTitle=Bar%F2metre+d%27Opini%F3+Pol%EDtica.+3a+onada+2017

And then to this document :

http://ceo.gencat.cat/ceop/AppJava/loadFile;jsessionid=01B048F2F82494F9241D9A7D2E7D7E5F?fileId=25474&fileType=1

which will give you this page (p.402)

If you take your color pencil case, a ruler and a Catalan dictionary , you might be able to draw again the nice graph ...;)

bertie 56

bertie 56 wrote: »

Here is one fact :D:D

Well, now ask yourself : Who is easier to indoctrinate? An illiterate without culture, who can not even read and believe everything they say on TV, or a person with university studies, forced to cultivate the mind and critical spirit, and who has learned languages and has traveled?

This is the reality, even though some of them hurt or try to hide it ...

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

No, not my style really :rolleyes:.

When I write something, I can back it up with facts.

I don't post rubbish , except for the laugh.

I found the picture like I posted it. I didn't crop it .

A few clicks on Google will bring you to this page :

http://ceo.gencat.cat/ceop/AppJava/pages/home/fitxaEstudi.html?colId=6408&lastTitle=Bar%F2metre+d%27Opini%F3+Pol%EDtica.+3a+onada+2017

And then to this document :

http://ceo.gencat.cat/ceop/AppJava/loadFile;jsessionid=01B048F2F82494F9241D9A7D2E7D7E5F?fileId=25474&fileType=1

which will give you this page (p.402)

If you take your color pencil case, a ruler and a Catalan dictionary , you might be able to draw again the nice graph ...;)

But you haven't posted any facts that what we're waiting on.

Why don't you address the issues that I raised and come up with your own arguments insted of posting pictures and skewed surveys?

Just answer this question. What currency would an independent Catalonia use. Surely if all the indepes are so educated you could tell us that?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Well, now ask yourself : Who is easier to indoctrinate? An illiterate without culture, who can not even read and believe everything they say on TV, or a person with university studies, forced to cultivate the mind and critical spirit, and who has learned languages and has traveled?

This is the reality, even though some of them hurt or try to hide it ...

You're the one who hasn't been able to explain why Catalonia should be an independent country and can't come up with their own arguments others than posting pics, memes and links of dodgy surveys from . Cat web domains which are carried out by pro independence government.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Well, now ask yourself : Who is easier to indoctrinate? An illiterate without culture, who can not even read and believe everything they say on TV, or a person with university studies, forced to cultivate the mind and critical spirit, and who has learned languages and has traveled?

This is the reality, even though some of them hurt or try to hide it ...

Even if this were true, which it isn't, what point are you trying to make? Surely everyone is entitled to their vote regardless of their level of education?

Why do you think that pro unionist Catalans should not be allowed to vote?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

For example, what currency would this new country use? They will be outside of the EU so will have to get in line behind Turkey for an application before it could join the Eurozone, national debt would need to be below 60.0% of Gross National Product as a start.
Their currency will have no value because they can't use the Euro. They are surrounded by the largest economic bloc in the world so the cost of living would rise and their currency would plummet in value. Would you keep your savings in CaixaBank not knowing what the currency would be worth the next day? This means there would be a run on the banks so that their savings are not wiped out over night and converted into a weaker currency.

The intellectual honesty makes that, when posting something, you write the source.
Specially when the post is a copy and paste of the article...
Unless you are the author of the article, of course, which I doubt....;)

https://homagetobcn.com/catalonia-currency/

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

the erbro river rises in a foreign land.

Erbro is a UK brand of socks . What is your point here ???

https://www.google.ie/search?q=erbro&client=ubuntu&hs=wh7&channel=fs&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqo-6opvvXAhVpKMAKHUnWBtoQ_AUICigB&biw=1855&bih=959