Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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bertie 56 wrote: »

Erbro is a UK brand of socks . What is your point here ???

https://www.google.ie/search?q=erbro&client=ubuntu&hs=wh7&channel=fs&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqo-6opvvXAhVpKMAKHUnWBtoQ_AUICigB&biw=1855&bih=959

What currency will an independent Catalonia use?

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bertie 56 wrote: »

The intellectual honesty makes that, when posting something, you write the source.
Specially when the post is a copy and paste of the article...
Unless you are the author of the article, of course, which I doubt....;)

https://homagetobcn.com/catalonia-currency/

Can you address the facts please?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

The intellectual honesty makes that, when posting something, you write the source.
Specially when the post is a copy and paste of the article...
Unless you are the author of the article, of course, which I doubt....;)

https://homagetobcn.com/catalonia-currency/

Says you who cannot post without consulting your friends back home. Nice website you use btw

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What currency will an independent Catalonia use?

The one they have decided to use, I suppose...

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bertie 56 wrote: »

The one they have decided to use, I suppose...

So have you decided which currency that is going to be? Pretty important if they have already declared independence.

Let's see if you can answer this in the next five minutes without getting permission from your website back home. Tick tock

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So have you decided which currency that is going to be? Pretty important if they have already declared independence.

Let's see if you can answer this in the next five minutes without getting permission from your website back home. Tick tock

You are getting bully , and I don't think it is the best behavior to have a quiet and constructive discussion .

Bona nit ( good night in catalan ).

I leave you with this video of peace .

On the cardboard, it is written :
" I don't want the independence, but I can't stay home while my people are punched "

Oiche mhaith

https://www.facebook.com/RepublicaCatal3/videos/1037537299682207/

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bertie 56 wrote: »

You are getting bully , and I don't think it is the best behavior to have a quiet and constructive discussion .

Bona nit ( good night in catalan ).

I leave you with this video of peace .

On the cardboard, it is written :
" I don't want the independence, but I can't stay home while my people are punched "

Oiche mhaith

https://www.facebook.com/RepublicaCatal3/videos/1037537299682207/

So no currency then.

Buenas noches

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What currency will an independent Catalonia use?

I'm not the Minister of Economy of the Catalan Republic, neither a specialist in economic matters.
And to be honest, I find this subject boring.:o

I could go in financial websites , copy and paste some long sentences with words that only few here will understand, pretending that I have the solution .
It's not my style...

Anyway, I'll try to answer . Few solutions :

- virtual currency ( no state has done it yet )
- Own currency ( there is plenty of countries around the world that are not with the Euro ! )
- Own currency indexed to the Euro ( 150 millions people around the world )
- Euro without the consent of EU ( Kosovo - Montenegro )
- Euro with the consent of EU ( will take time ).

With the poor knowledge I have in economic matters, I don't know which solution will be best for Catalonia.

But I know two things :

- Catalonia is a prosperous country . And when there is money, there is solutions...

- The political leaders of Catalonia are not " illuminated " people , neither suicidal ones for the economy of their country . The main political party of Catalonia is of liberal view, they are backed up with some economic professional, who knows better than you and me about the problem.

IMHO, the thing that will be crucial in all this will be the willpower of Europe to re-integrate Catalonia within the Euro market . I believe it can be fast if EU wants it ( Catalonia is richer than Spain in proportion, and EU have all interest to have access to this "treasure " ) . But it can as well be a slow and painful protest if EU decides to " punish " economically Catalonia for it's decision to be independent ( like Spain did with the moving of the companies ).

I've answer to you in all honesty. I just hope that in return, you will do accordingly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/catalonia-spain-independence-vote-economy-population-location-trade-currency-a8025051.html

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Even if this were true, which it isn't, what point are you trying to make? Surely everyone is entitled to their vote regardless of their level of education?

Yes, everyone is entitled to their vote regardless of their level of education. I never said the opposite.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Why do you think that pro unionist Catalans should not be allowed to vote?

Dirty tricks like this don't work. It is useless and can only bring frictions in the discussion .

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

dodgy surveys from . Cat web domains which are carried out by pro independence government.

Maybe you have some facts to share about the political connection between this official statistic office and the independence movement ?

Your sentence is the equivalent of this one :

" The CSO supports Varadkar government because their website domain is .ie " :eek:

( you are 100% entitled to believe this, though :rolleyes: )

( CSO is the Central Statistic Office in Ireland )

A bit of consideration for people work, please ! Specially when you don't know who they are, what they are doing, and the way they are doing their work...
That is called " respect " . :cool:

bertie 56

bertie 56 wrote: »

Hi there,

Some information can be found here :

This one is from September and gives a general idea :

https://www.ft.com/content/62118282-a35a-11e7-b797-b61809486fe2

This one is more about the current situation . It is from mid November.

https://www.ft.com/content/da70a2f0-bb04-11e7-8c12-5661783e5589

All two are from the Financial Times.

Beware of some numbers in general : some comes from the Spanish side, which has all interest to have the situation looked more catastrophic than it is in reality .
Cross-check with other figures to be sure...

About the companies that left :
Some companies left alright . But they have moved only their letter box. The " production lines " and workforces stayed in Catalonia.

Just a bit of politics but it is important :
The companies did left their registered addresses helped by the Spanish Governement, with some receiving pressure ( Seat for ex ).
The last month, the Spanish Government turned tail and asked the companies to stop leaving .
All this to say that if some companies left Catalonia, it hasn't been only for economical reasons.

Elections :
There is no way the catastrophic scenario described by the previous poster happens.
The Catalan people wants to vote and since , this time, Spain will let them, there is no reason the elections will not be smooth.
The Catalan people are democratic and above all peaceful : the result will surely be respected.

If the independentists get a majority , there is a little risk that some un-happy " unionnists" will fall into provocation , as seen during previous demonstrations. ( although these came mainly from Spain and not locally ).

In long term, it is hard to know : it will depends of how easy it will be to make a new government : but this depends of the elections results !
And second thing, which is key, I think , is to know when Spain will lift the article 155 on Catalonia. ( so far, they said that they want to maintain it if the independentists are in power ) .

So, I would say, although I'm not economist or in risk management :
small business: ok,
big business : wait and see ...

Hope that helps a bit...

By curiosity, what type of business is it ? (here or in MP )

For our friend that was worried about the companies that left Catalonia .

Here is an article . "The move of companies out of Catalonia will have a "nonexistent" economic impact "

The automatic translation from Google :

The Trade Union of Technicians of the Ministry of Finance (Gestha) reminds that the impact of the change of the headquarters of almost 3,000 companies outside of Catalonia since October 1 is "practically non-existent" for the public coffers of the collection as it does not affect in the collection, except in a minority way in the property transfer tax and documented legal acts in cases where capital increases are carried out.

This has been recalled by General Secretary of Gestha, José María Mollinedo, after the president of Citizens, Albert Rivera, has indicated this Thursday that one of the tasks of Inés Arrimadas if he comes to govern will face the consequences of the departure of companies de Catalunya, which will generate "less revenue" for public coffers because now these companies pay taxes outside.

Mollinedo explained that the impact of the flight of companies outside of Catalonia is "negligible" because the companies that move will pay the Corporation tax and VAT in another delegation of the State Tax Agency and then the Government will distribute to the CCAA, the part of the collection assigned according to the indexes published by the INE.

In the case of VAT, the distribution of its collection is made according to the proportion of consumption that each region obtains, and it is distributed to 50%, while the tax of Societies does not finance the CCAA, but is directly entered into the coffers public and does not therefore affect the financing of autonomies.

A similar situation occurs with the Special Taxes, for which the INE establishes each consumption (gasoline, alcohol and tobacco) and is distributed according to what is estimated for each CCAA. "That percentage of cession of taxes will be distributed to each community regardless of where each headquarters is," said Mollinedo.

Regarding the Electricity tax, the supplying companies charge it to each supply point and it is entered in the community of the geographical area where the meter is located.

The only tax that could be altered by the transfers of company headquarters outside of Catalonia would be, in the form of corporate transactions, property transfer taxes and documented legal acts, in cases in which any of the almost 3,000 companies that have marched undertake a capital increase without charge to reserve.

However, the collection for this tax is very low and the impact will occur in "very exceptional" cases in which some of the companies that have left undertake a capital increase with contribution from the shareholders, which would be paid into the new region where you have established your headquarters.

In this way, Mollinedo has ruled out that there will be tax increases or cuts in future budgets for this reason, since the impact of the flight of companies is "virtually non-existent."

In any case, the general secretary of Gestha considers that with the application of article 155 does not make "much sense" the transfer of social addresses from a technical point of view, although it did before, especially for banks in order to preserve the value of the shares and to avoid the flight of deposits, as well as by the rest of companies to avoid a possible boycott of Catalan products.

The original article in Spanish :

http://www.publico.es/economia/gestha-desmiente-albert-rivera-fuga-empresas-catalunya-tendra-impacto-economico-inexistente.html

Please note that the " Sindicato de Técnicos del Ministerio de Hacienda " is Spanish, based in Madrid.

bertie 56

New poll today , from El Espagnol.

ERC: 32-33 22,5%
C's: 29-30 21,5%
JxCat: 27-28 19,8%
PSC: 21-22 14,4%
CeC: 9 7,4%
CUP: 8 5,5%
PP: 6-7 5,4%

Pro-independence parties would get 47,8%
Unionists parties would get 41.3 %

An Ciarraioch

bertie 56 wrote: »

New poll today , from El Espagnol.

ERC: 32-33 22,5%
C's: 29-30 21,5%
JxCat: 27-28 19,8%
PSC: 21-22 14,4%
CeC: 9 7,4%
CUP: 8 5,5%
PP: 6-7 5,4%

Pro-independence parties would get 47,8%
Unionists parties would get 41.3 %

Same article says the paper will publish a new tracker every 48 hours. What's noticeable is that while the individual party figures vary significantly in each paper's poll, the bloc totals have remained virtually static:

Pro-independence 67-69 seats
Unionist 56-59 seats
Podemos 9

The graph at the end of that article suggests Podemos are highly unlikely to endorse a Ciudadanos candidate for president, with only 1% in either party favouring a pact with the other.

An Ciarraioch

La Vanguardia poll:

ERC 31-32 seats 21.5%
C's 30-31 " 23.1%
JxC 30 " 18.2%
PSC 22 " 16.5%
CeC 8 " 7.4%
PP 8" 7.1%
CUP 5" 5%

Unionists get 46.5% of the vote here, with pro-independence on 44.7%.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171209/433531311018/encuesta-la-vanguardia-soberanismo-aleja-mayoria-absoluta-gad3-elecciones-cataluna.html

bertie 56

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Same article says the paper will publish a new tracker every 48 hours. What's noticeable is that while the individual party figures vary significantly in each paper's poll, the bloc totals have remained virtually static:

Pro-independence 67-69 seats
Unionist 56-59 seats
Podemos 9

The graph at the end of that article suggests Podemos are highly unlikely to endorse a Ciudadanos candidate for president, with only 1% in either party favouring a pact with the other.

En Comu Podem seems to lean towards to indep. side , with some towards PSC.

( ??? there is some 4% of the CUP with PP that I don't get, to be honest ...??? )

---

According to this paper, turnout should be massive ( could be over 80% ), but still a lot of hesitation in the population : 1.6M will go to vote, but don't know yet for who.

in Cat: http://www.elnacional.cat/ca/opinio/jordi-sauret-enquesta-elecciones-
catalunya_219501_102.html

in Span. http://www.elnacional.cat/es/opinion/jordi-sauret-encuesta-elecciones-catalunya_219501_102.html

CroFag

Hello again & thanks to both sides for answering my questions.
I'm not involved in business with Spain, but I did made an order last week & was agitated that nobody was in the office there, as Wednesday and Friday were national holidays, so I guess they just glued them together in one big holiday, a Christmas before Christmas - siesta way of life

I made a social experiment last night, in the company of many Spanish expats here in Dublin, all educated & well off people.

I asked them about Catalonia & their language & was surprised with the slurs towards their compatriots in the north. There was booing involved on just mentioning a word "Catalonia" and mentioning the language brought comments like "there is no Catalan language", and an honest but brutal truth "when I was going through CV applications, if I saw a first language Catalan, I'd throw it in the bin".

I was 100% on the united Spain side, I didn't mind the force used on the illegal referendum day, I didn't mind jailing the perpetrators & judicial hearing, as I come from the country that was once big & strong, but was brutally torn apart & brought the new word in the world dictionaries: "balkanization".

But last night for the first time I felt sympathies for the Catalan nationalists and was happy that no Catalan people were there in the company, as one could sense the hostility towards them.

Look, as there's not a single dead person due to these skirmishes, it's OK. Peace is the only thing that matters.

bertie 56

CroFag wrote: »

Hello again & thanks to both sides for answering my questions.
I'm not involved in business with Spain, but I did made an order last week & was agitated that nobody was in the office there, as Wednesday and Friday were national holidays, so I guess they just glued them together in one big holiday, a Christmas before Christmas - siesta way of life

I made a social experiment last night, in the company of many Spanish expats here in Dublin, all educated & well off people.

I asked them about Catalonia & their language & was surprised with the slurs towards their compatriots in the north. There was booing involved on just mentioning a word "Catalonia" and mentioning the language brought comments like "there is no Catalan language", and an honest but brutal truth "when I was going through CV applications, if I saw a first language Catalan, I'd throw it in the bin".

I was 100% on the united Spain side, I didn't mind the force used on the illegal referendum day, I didn't mind jailing the perpetrators & judicial hearing, as I come from the country that was once big & strong, but was brutally torn apart & brought the new word in the world dictionaries: "balkanization".

But last night for the first time I felt sympathies for the Catalan nationalists and was happy that no Catalan people were there in the company, as one could sense the hostility towards them.

Look, as there's not a single dead person due to these skirmishes, it's OK. Peace is the only thing that matters.

Thank you, CroFag, for your courageous feedback.
Yes, peace is the only thing that matters.
After all, Catalan and Spanish people will be neighbors for life...

Unfortunately, some find interest to bring people one against the other .
( see last front page of El Pais : " El separatismo pasea su odio a Espana por las calles de Bruselas / The separatism brings around his hate of Spain in the streets of Brusels .)
That is sad and doesn't help to build a peaceful future.


We have a lot to learn from the Catalans...
( " votarem - we will vote " )
https://twitter.com/BilBelBarca/status/914485325589893120

Barna77

bertie 56 wrote: »

Well, you shouldn't make a laugh of it . I mean it .

TV3, that model of impartiality

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What currency will an independent Catalonia use?

The Pujolet

An Ciarraioch

Meanwhile, a nationalist victory in Corsica, though they are more autonomist for now:

https://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/corse/elections-corse-large-victoire-coalition-nationaliste-estimation-1382179.html

An Ciarraioch

Of course El Nacional being a nationalist paper influences these results, but here they are for completeness:

Esquerra 32-33 seats (22.27%)
C's 28-30 (21.2%)
JxC 28-30 (18.94%)
PSC 21-22 (15.89%)
CeC 9 (7.42%)
CUP 9 (7.37%)
PP 6-7 (6.11%)

Which seems credible, until you look at the blocs:

Pro-independence 69-72 seats (48.5%)
Pro-Spain 55-59 seats (43%)
CeC 9 (7.42%)

http://www.elnacional.cat/ca/politica/enquesta-eleccions-catalunya-21-d-3_218295_102.html

bertie 56

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Meanwhile, a nationalist victory in Corsica, though they are more autonomist for now:

https://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/corse/elections-corse-large-victoire-coalition-nationaliste-estimation-1382179.html

Good to see that an idea that was previously defended by clandestine ways is now finding his way through democratic voices.
Final results gave a large victory for the nationalist and regionalist side .
They ask already 3 main things : amnesty for the political prisoners , co-officiality of the Corsican language , and a resident statute.
They want to open negotiations with France soon, to obtain a autonomy statute in the next three years, and an effective application of this statute in the next ten years.


Last month, in France too, has been sign a political agreement with New Caledonia .
( Island East of Australia that still belongs to France ).
It's another step for the island after years of negotiations, and dead people both sides.
The agreement is about a independence referendum for the island , which should be done at the end of next year the latest.
This should be an example for Spain in how to deal in a clean way with the wishes of the people !!!


And last thing in France, former 'Socialist' prime minister Manuel Valls is joining Ciutadans' campaign in Catalonia, in support of the unity of Spain.
He is just out of a judicial case where 66 irregular votes has been pointed out in the deputy election. Don't worry, he still keeps his deputy seat...
When Prime Minister ,Manuel Valls was a specialist for imposing the adoption of a law text by the French Assembly , immediately and without any vote , as allowed by the French Constitution . ( article 49 alinea 3 ).
As a good defender of democracy, as you can see, he can only feel home with Ciutadans...


During this time, Spanish paramilitary forces entered in the dead of last night in a Catalonia museum in order to move art pieces to Spain.
Another dirty trick in the back, with the use of article 155 to have it " legal " ... Police force seems to be the only way they know to impose their will , once again....

http://www.catalannews.com/culture/item/spanish-police-starts-removing-works-of-art-in-the-middle-of-the-night

recedite

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

La Vanguardia poll:

ERC 31-32 seats 21.5%
C's 30-31 " 23.1%
JxC 30 " 18.2%
PSC 22 " 16.5%
CeC 8 " 7.4%
PP 8" 7.1%
CUP 5" 5%

Unionists get 46.5% of the vote here, with pro-independence on 44.7%.

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Of course El Nacional being a nationalist paper influences these results, but here they are for completeness:

Esquerra 32-33 seats (22.27%)
C's 28-30 (21.2%)
JxC 28-30 (18.94%)
PSC 21-22 (15.89%)
CeC 9 (7.42%)
CUP 9 (7.37%)
PP 6-7 (6.11%)

Pro-independence 69-72 seats (48.5%)
Pro-Spain 55-59 seats (43%)
CeC 9 (7.42%)

Two polls, two different results.
Overall they seem to be hovering around the 50;50 mark, much like the pre-referendum polls.

Barna77

bertie 56 wrote: »

During this time, Spanish paramilitary forces entered in the dead of last night in a Catalonia museum in order to move art pieces to Spain.
Another dirty trick in the back, with the use of article 155 to have it " legal " ... Police force seems to be the only way they know to impose their will , once again....

Lord...

Btw, speaking of France, have you mentioned here how the people in "Catalonia North" (aka Pyrénées-Orientales), say yeah we are Catalonian but French first, meaning, leave us alone?

feargale

Barna77 wrote: »

Lord...

Btw, speaking of France, have you mentioned here how the people in "Catalonia North" (aka Pyrénées-Orientales), say yeah we are Catalonian but French first, meaning, leave us alone?

And who was bothering them so much that they need to be left alone?

Master of the Omniverse

Regarding spanish elections.......https://www.themaven.net/mishtalk/economics/allegations-of-vote-fraud-emerge-in-spain-g_3EhtfCGUeMq55S32EaCg
And heres some more'.......http://catalanmonitor.com/2016/07/07/possible-fraud-in-june-26-elections/
We dodged a bullet with the electronic voting machines over here.

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

Lord...

Btw, speaking of France, have you mentioned here how the people in "Catalonia North" (aka Pyrénées-Orientales), say yeah we are Catalonian but French first, meaning, leave us alone?

Well, the Guardia Civil is a police force with a military statute.

Since you are so picky with the details : North Catalonia is not " aka " the Pyrennes Orientales as you said. Part of the Pyrennes Orientales are of Occitan language and culture.:rolleyes:

Now, why you want to talk about them ? They were not part of the Catalonia referendum which is the title of the thread. And they are not part of the next coming elections. Some people there support their " cousins " of the South, some don't,and the majority feels French. Different country - different people...That doesn't low down the legitimacy of the " fight" of South Catalonia ...
That's all we can say about this subject, I think...

bertie 56

Master of the Omniverse wrote: »

Regarding spanish elections.......https://www.themaven.net/mishtalk/economics/allegations-of-vote-fraud-emerge-in-spain-g_3EhtfCGUeMq55S32EaCg
And heres some more'.......http://catalanmonitor.com/2016/07/07/possible-fraud-in-june-26-elections/
We dodged a bullet with the electronic voting machines over here.

The company in the two articles is INDRA Sistemas, based in Madrid, which is in charge of the Catalonia elections.
Some people received already at home more elections card than people in the house...

Few petitions against the use of INDRA for the elections are on the way...
Here is one :
https://www.change.org/p/gobierno-de-espa%C3%B1a-no-queremos-que-indra-cuente-los-votos-el-21d

Interesting :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op5HvGFmvLw

Barna77

feargale wrote: »

And who was bothering them so much that they need to be left alone?

bertie 56 wrote: »

Well, the Guardia Civil is a police force with a military statute.

Since you are so picky with the details : North Catalonia is not " aka " the Pyrennes Orientales as you said. Part of the Pyrennes Orientales are of Occitan language and culture.:rolleyes:

Now, why you want to talk about them ? They were not part of the Catalonia referendum which is the title of the thread. And they are not part of the next coming elections. Some people there support their " cousins " of the South, some don't,and the majority feels French. Different country - different people...That doesn't low down the legitimacy of the " fight" of South Catalonia ...
That's all we can say about this subject, I think...

Well North Catalonia is part of the masterplan of the "Paisos Catalans".
Wouldn't ERC, Cup, Junts for whatever they are called now be happy to reclaim them too, and why not Valencia, Mallorca and East Aragon too? :pac:

What I don't know is why the Val d'Aran don't want the independence .

Yes, the Guardia Civil has a military status but calling them "paramilitary" is a stretch too far, specially with the negative connotations of the word "paramilitary".

recedite

Barna77 wrote: »

Yes, the Guardia Civil has a military status but calling them "paramilitary" is a stretch too far, specially with the negative connotations of the word "paramilitary".

The "connotations" are probably more negative in Ireland than in other jurisdictions.

A paramilitary is a semi-militarized force whose organizational structure, tactics, training, subculture, and (often) function are similar to those of a professional military, but which is not included as part of a state's formal armed forces.
Under the law of war, a state may incorporate a paramilitary organization or armed agency (such as a national police, a private volunteer militia) into its combatant armed forces.

From wiki. So, on balance, it seems a reasonable description for the Guardia Civil.

An Ciarraioch

Averaging out today's three polls, a narrow pro-independence majority seems probable:

ERC 30-32
JxC 29-30
CUP 8-9

C's 30-32
PSC 19-20
PP 5-7

CeC 8-9

With Esquerra on the slide, could well be between Junts and C's to be the largest single party.