Catalan independence referendum, 2017

An Ciarraioch

A campaign-wide average, from El Periodico, is similar:

Pro-independence 67 (ERC 36, JxC 23, CUP 8)
Unionist 58 (C's 30, PSC 20, PP 8)
Podemos 10

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171211/encuestas-elecciones-cataluna-2017-6449767

Pero_Bueno

But don't they need a 66% majority to go ahead with a legal referendum again for independence ?
Why did spain even bother with 155 if this will just start the same process all over again ?

recedite

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

But don't they need a 66% majority to go ahead with a legal referendum again for independence ?
Why did spain even bother with 155 if this will just start the same process all over again ?

...and permission from Rajoy, and various other unattainable stuff.
Still, its very hard to keep democracy down.

bertie 56

This election is stinking ....

If we make the list of what is going on :

Political prisoners :

- Oriol JUNQUERAS, number 1 on the ERC list, in in preventive jail for the last 39 days.
- Jordi SANCHEZ, number 2 on the Junts Per Catalunya list , is in preventive jail for the last 56 days.
- Carles Puigdemont, number 1 on the Junts Per Catalunya list, is in forced exile for the last 44 days.
-Clara Ponsati , number 3 on the Junts Per Catalunya list, is in forced exile for the last 44 days.
Joaquim FORN, number 7 on the Junts Per Catalunya list , is in preventive jail for the last 39 days.

Control of the election :

- INDRA Sistemas has been appointed for counting the votes of the elections . This company has been appointed through an emergency procedure by Madrid. INDRA is notorious for the frauds this company did in the past, in Spain and all over the world.
https://www.ara.cat/economia/Rajoy-adjudica-Indra-recompte-electoral_0_1922207783.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=ara

- International observers has been forbidden in Catalonia . ( 80 % of all elections in the world are under scrutiny of international observers. In Ireland too...)
https://www.change.org/p/junta-electoral-central-observadors-internacionals-pel-21-d/nftexp/ex41/v3/21103904

Pressure on Catalonia people:

- El PP( far-far-right ), PSC ( socialists ? ),Cuidadanos ( liberal ), all unionists parties, have threatened the people already :
The article 155 will be extended in Catalonia if a majority of Independentists keeps the majority.
http://www.elnacional.cat/en/editorial/jose-antich-editorial-plan-b-unionists-155_219846_102.html

- According to some members of the sacked Government, Madrid did warn about " dead on the streets " if the Government will keep on with the independentist processus.
This has been confirmed later by a former colonel of the Spanish Army :
http://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/rajoy-did-threaten-deaths-in-the-streets-says-former-spanish-army-colonel_219888_102.html
( The 9 of Oct, a similar thread came from PP spokesman Pablo Casado who threatens Catalan president to end up like president Companys: imprisoned in 1934; executed by Franco in 1940.)
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/spain/madrid-threatens-imprisonment-death-to-catalonia-leaders/

- 3.500 Guardia Civil ( paramilitary / police force with a military statute ) will be on their way for the elections, as extra force in Catalonia
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/12/11/actualidad/1513020493_998855.html

- The Mossos d'Esquadra , the Catalan police ,during this time, have their access to munitions blocked by Madrid , despite risks of terrorist attacks ( 15 dead in Barcelona 6 months ago ).
http://catalanmonitor.com/2017/09/14/the-spanish-guardia-civil-has-been-blocking-access-to-long-fire-arms-for-catalan-mossos-for-a-year/

- More politicians arrests are on the way . Some 50 people are concerned, some being on the political lists of the next elections.
http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/spain-supreme-court-widens-investigation-independence_220434_102.html

Democratic rights problems :

- A prohibited color . ( What is on the picture is forbidden)
- Prohibited expressions :
https://helpcatalonia.blogspot.ie/2017/11/spanish-board-prohibits-use-of-some.html
-Prohibited TV program
http://www.ccma.cat/324/el-pp-presenta-un-recurs-contra-tv3-per-la-cobertura-de-la-manifestacio-a-brusselles/noticia/2826038/
- Prohibited meetings
https://delcamp.cat/reusdiari/politica/junta-electoral-torna-prohibir-manifestar-se-als-avis-avies-llibertat-canvi-pancarta


All this in 2017 in Europe....:eek:

An Ciarraioch

Meanwhile, a row has broken out between Aragon and Catalonia over the ownership of religious artworks, mainly because Aragonese parishes that were in the Lleida (Cat) diocese were transferred to Aragon in 1995, long after the paintings had been placed in Catalan museums:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/cultura/20171212/433573595698/origen-conflicto-sijena.html

Pero_Bueno

recedite wrote: »

...and permission from Rajoy, and various other unattainable stuff.
Still, its very hard to keep democracy down.

Indeed and even if they don't get it now, the next generation of kids here that will be voters in 10-15 years ... forget it , they will want independence.

Spain has really scored a few own goals here.

bertie 56

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Meanwhile, a row has broken out between Aragon and Catalonia over the ownership of religious artworks, mainly because Aragonese parishes that were in the Lleida (Cat) diocese were transferred to Aragon in 1995, long after the paintings had been placed in Catalan museums:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/cultura/20171212/433573595698/origen-conflicto-sijena.html

The article will have been complete if it would have say these two things :

- The artworks were removed from Sijena to Catalonia to preserve them of being destroyed by the Civil War.
- The president of the " Ordre de les monges de Sixena" ( Order of the Nuns of Sijena ) , where the artworks will be received, is the brother of Íñigo Méndez de Vigo, Spain Culture Minister, who did sign the transfer order...:eek:

If you have any doubt that this is the consequences of the 155 article, listen to
Ros from PSC ( unionist party ): "I deeply regret that Spain's direct rule over Catalonia was used to "confiscate" art pieces. It shouldn't have happened."

Catalonia people are seeing this transfer as a humiliation, and are talking about the art pieces being " spoils of war "

Anyway, I'm sure Spain is already taking good care of the pieces ...

Master of the Omniverse

bertie 56 wrote: »

This election is stinking ....

If we make the list of what is going on :

Political prisoners :

- Oriol JUNQUERAS, number 1 on the ERC list, in in preventive jail for the last 39 days.
- Jordi SANCHEZ, number 2 on the Junts Per Catalunya list , is in preventive jail for the last 56 days.
- Carles Puigdemont, number 1 on the Junts Per Catalunya list, is in forced exile for the last 44 days.
-Clara Ponsati , number 3 on the Junts Per Catalunya list, is in forced exile for the last 44 days.
Joaquim FORN, number 7 on the Junts Per Catalunya list , is in preventive jail for the last 39 days.

Control of the election :

- INDRA Sistemas has been appointed for counting the votes of the elections . This company has been appointed through an emergency procedure by Madrid. INDRA is notorious for the frauds this company did in the past, in Spain and all over the world.
https://www.ara.cat/economia/Rajoy-adjudica-Indra-recompte-electoral_0_1922207783.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=ara

- International observers has been forbidden in Catalonia . ( 80 % of all elections in the world are under scrutiny of international observers. In Ireland too...)
https://www.change.org/p/junta-electoral-central-observadors-internacionals-pel-21-d/nftexp/ex41/v3/21103904

Pressure on Catalonia people:

- El PP( far-far-right ), PSC ( socialists ? ),Cuidadanos ( liberal ), all unionists parties, have threatened the people already :
The article 155 will be extended in Catalonia if a majority of Independentists keeps the majority.
http://www.elnacional.cat/en/editorial/jose-antich-editorial-plan-b-unionists-155_219846_102.html

- According to some members of the sacked Government, Madrid did warn about " dead on the streets " if the Government will keep on with the independentist processus.
This has been confirmed later by a former colonel of the Spanish Army :
http://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/rajoy-did-threaten-deaths-in-the-streets-says-former-spanish-army-colonel_219888_102.html
( The 9 of Oct, a similar thread came from PP spokesman Pablo Casado who threatens Catalan president to end up like president Companys: imprisoned in 1934; executed by Franco in 1940.)
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/spain/madrid-threatens-imprisonment-death-to-catalonia-leaders/

- 3.500 Guardia Civil ( paramilitary / police force with a military statute ) will be on their way for the elections, as extra force in Catalonia
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/12/11/actualidad/1513020493_998855.html

- The Mossos d'Esquadra , the Catalan police ,during this time, have their access to munitions blocked by Madrid , despite risks of terrorist attacks ( 15 dead in Barcelona 6 months ago ).
http://catalanmonitor.com/2017/09/14/the-spanish-guardia-civil-has-been-blocking-access-to-long-fire-arms-for-catalan-mossos-for-a-year/

- More politicians arrests are on the way . Some 50 people are concerned, some being on the political lists of the next elections.
http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/spain-supreme-court-widens-investigation-independence_220434_102.html

Democratic rights problems :

- A prohibited color . ( What is on the picture is forbidden)
- Prohibited expressions :
https://helpcatalonia.blogspot.ie/2017/11/spanish-board-prohibits-use-of-some.html
-Prohibited TV program
http://www.ccma.cat/324/el-pp-presenta-un-recurs-contra-tv3-per-la-cobertura-de-la-manifestacio-a-brusselles/noticia/2826038/
- Prohibited meetings
https://delcamp.cat/reusdiari/politica/junta-electoral-torna-prohibir-manifestar-se-als-avis-avies-llibertat-canvi-pancarta


All this in 2017 in Europe....:eek:

Thankyou for pointing out how democracy works in europe at present.Now that the european army is on the cards,the next time people try to exercise their democratic right to freedom,I think the guardia civil actions in catalonia will be described as a tame response,compared to what is yet to come.The european armys only real enemy will be us.

recedite

bertie 56 wrote: »

Spain is already taking good care of the pieces ...

"Pieces" is probably all that will be left, with those lads rattling the box around upside down.
I am reminded of the Judgement of Solomon

bertie 56

New poll from El Espagnol

Independentists : 47.4 % - 66 to 72 seats
Unionists : 41.5 % - 52 to 58 seats

Pro-independence parties would get an absolute majority.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

Indeed and even if they don't get it now, the next generation of kids here that will be voters in 10-15 years ... forget it , they will want independence.

Spain has really scored a few own goals here.

The biggest mistake was giving Catalonia autonomy over education. Allowing them to drive out the Spanish language and instill their own language and ideology in it's place. This is exactly what the British did in Ireland. To kill a language is to kill it's speakers and to kill it's culture.

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The biggest mistake was giving Catalonia autonomy over education. Allowing them to drive out the Spanish language and instill their own language and ideology in it's place. This is exactly what the British did in Ireland. To kill a language is to kill it's speakers and to kill it's culture.

Latest official data is from 2013, but if anything, Catalans appear to be perfectly bilingual, and a sizeable proportion also speak Englush:

https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=aec&n=1013

feargale

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The biggest mistake was giving Catalonia autonomy over education. Allowing them to drive out the Spanish language and instill their own language and ideology in it's place. This is exactly what the British did in Ireland. To kill a language is to kill it's speakers and to kill it's culture.

No. Catalonia reacted to historic suppression of the Catalan language just as Ireland similarly reacted to suppression of Irish. You may take issue with that, as no doubt you and everybody in Catalonia, independista and unionist alike, will take issue with one policy or another adopted by any Barcelona administration. But nobody ever suggested that Ireland forfeited its right to self-government because of Devalera's Irish language policies, even though they were opposed by a very significant portion of the Irish people.
There are international courts to which people can appeal to vindicate their language rights,

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Latest official data is from 2013, but if anything, Catalans appear to be perfectly bilingual, and a sizeable proportion also speak Englush:

https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=aec&n=1013

That's because English is promoted more than Spanish. It's the only place in the world where your children cannot be educated in their native language. It's also the only place in Europe where a group who does not have a linguistic majority but is still taught as the primary language in schools.

v638sg7k1a92bx

feargale wrote: »

No. Catalonia reacted to historic suppression of the Catalan language just as Ireland similarly reacted to suppression of Irish. You may take issue with that, as no doubt you and everybody in Catalonia, independista and unionist alike, will take issue with one policy or another adopted by any Barcelona administration. But nobody ever suggested that Ireland forfeited its right to self-government because of Devalera's Irish language policies, even though they were opposed by a very significant portion of the Irish people.

Again trying to co-relate British imperialism with Catalan independence and not going five posts without mentioning Franco.

We don't suppress the English language in response to British imperialism and Spanish has always been the native language of Catalonia, English was not always our native language.
Catalonia is suppressing Spanish by refusing to teach children in Spanish. Stores and businesses in Catalonia are fined if they don't have a Catalan name. It is the only place in the world that refuses to teach it's children in their native language.

Imagine the outcry and calls of fascism if Madrid refused to allow children in Catalonia to be taught in Catalan.

bertie 56

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Latest official data is from 2013, but if anything, Catalans appear to be perfectly bilingual, and a sizeable proportion also speak Englush:

https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=aec&n=1013

Interesting article about the history of the linguistic politic of Catalonia.

" The current educational model has one of its foundations in the Linguistic Normalization Law, approved on April 6, 1983 in the Parliament of Catalonia, with 105 votes in favor and one abstention."


" Although the parliamentary majority and the educational community defended the immersion model, from the beginning, there was some opposition, which was accentuated in 2012, when the then Minister of Education José Ignacio Wert, in an appearance at the Congress, he referred to "the drift from the Catalan educational system" and explained that the interest of the Spanish Government was "to Spanishize the Catalan students." "

" About the Catalan public school now plans Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution, which could mean its direct control by the State. Jesús Martínez fears that they want to "load the seed that so many people planted" in the early 80's, but says that "as much as possible, we will not allow it."

I'm afraid this is , once again, an overthrow by Madrid against the will of the vast majority of Catalans ...

In Catalan :
https://directa.cat/quan-families-xarnegues-van-construir-lescola-publica-en-catala

Google translation in English :
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ca&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdirecta.cat%2Fquan-families-xarnegues-van-construir-lescola-publica-en-catala&edit-text=&act=url

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

. It is the only place in the world that refuses to teach it's children in their native language.

Last week , it was " the only place in Europe" , this week is " the world " , what will it be next week ?
:eek:

Barna77

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Again trying to co-relate British imperialism with Catalan independence and not going five posts without mentioning Franco.

Well of course.
It's amazing how one is called a fascist just because you are against the independence.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Last week , it was " the only place in Europe" , this week is " the world " , what will it be next week ?
:eek:

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

That's because English is promoted more than Spanish. It's the only place in the world where your children cannot be educated in their native language. It's also the only place in Europe where a group who does not have a linguistic majority but is still taught as the primary language in schools.

Again the Catalan schools have let you down.

Try and quote my full post next time or read it again, the facts are the same but your interpretation always seems to change.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Again the Catalan schools have let you down.

Try and quote my full post next time or read it again, the facts are the same but your interpretation always seems to change.

Your post 1434 from last week...

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Your post 1434 from last week...

Here is my post from last week

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Catalonia has the honour of being the only place in the Western world where the majority of the population don't have the option of enrolling their children in schools that teach in their native language.
https://www.ft.com/content/076144d0-6824-11e5-97d0-1456a776a4f5

This is the post from today

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

That's because English is promoted more than Spanish. It's the only place in the world where your children cannot be educated in their native language. It's also the only place in Europe where a group who does not have a linguistic majority but is still taught as the primary language in schools.

Nice Catalan society you are promoting where people people who speak a different language are discriminated against.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Barna77 wrote: »

Well of course.
It's amazing how one is called a fascist just because you are against the independence.

Incredible how nobody mentions that in places like Girona, people who are in favour of Spanish unity have to walk around with their head down for fear of reprisal, job loss and being ostracized from society.

Barna77

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Incredible how nobody mentions that in places like Girona, people who are in favour of Spanish unity have to walk around with their head down for fear of reprisal, job loss and being ostracized from society.

But they are mad up there :eek:
That's what my father used to say

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

That's because English is promoted more than Spanish. It's the only place in the world where your children cannot be educated in their native language. It's also the only place in Europe where a group who does not have a linguistic majority but is still taught as the primary language in schools.

Except when Dastis made similar claims about a month ago, didn't families publish their kids' timetables to highlight that they had several Spanish lessons per week? Interestingly, in the Basque Country, where there are several curriculum types, the options that teach predominantly or exclusively in Basque have been increasing in popularity in the last decade.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Here is my post from last week



This is the post from today

Yep. Western world last week, full world today, what will it be next week ? :D:D

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Incredible how nobody mentions that in places like Girona, people who are in favour of Spanish unity have to walk around with their head down for fear of reprisal, job loss and being ostracized from society.

Lucky them to be able to walk around...
Some others with different ideas don't have this chance....:rolleyes:

bertie 56

After Madrid has made everything possible for the Catalan companies to leave , and then tried to invert the movement , they are now trying to extinguish the fire they did light themselves ...:D

" Supporters of intervention in Catalonia now try to stop boycott of Catalan products "

" Almost a month and a half since the application of article 155, PP (Popular Party), PSOE (Spanish Socialist Workers' Party) and Ciudadanos (Citizens) will ratify a non-legislative proposal drafted by Mariano Rajoy's PP party and debated in the Congress this Tuesday, which opposes the boycott on Catalan products, because of the harm it causes to "Marca España" (Brand Spain) "

https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/supporters-intervention-catalonia-congress-stop-boycott_220782_102.html

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Lucky them to be able to walk around...
Some others with different ideas don't have this chance....:rolleyes:

The good auld victim card again. That looks the G20 summit in Hamburg or any other country in "the western world" could even be the mossos when they smashed their own people a few years ago but. I complaints about that either.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

After Madrid has made everything possible for the Catalan companies to leave , and then tried to invert the movement , they are now trying to extinguish the fire they did light themselves ...:D

" Supporters of intervention in Catalonia now try to stop boycott of Catalan products "

" Almost a month and a half since the application of article 155, PP (Popular Party), PSOE (Spanish Socialist Workers' Party) and Ciudadanos (Citizens) will ratify a non-legislative proposal drafted by Mariano Rajoy's PP party and debated in the Congress this Tuesday, which opposes the boycott on Catalan products, because of the harm it causes to "Marca España" (Brand Spain) "

https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/supporters-intervention-catalonia-congress-stop-boycott_220782_102.html

More propoganda. these people are so brainwashed, like lemmings walking off a cliff.

v638sg7k1a92bx

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

bertie 56 wrote: »

Lucky them to be able to walk around...
Some others with different ideas don't have this chance....:rolleyes:

Looks like the Catalan police to me...