Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Except when Dastis made similar claims about a month ago, didn't families publish their kids' timetables to highlight that they had several Spanish lessons per week? Interestingly, in the Basque Country, where there are several curriculum types, the options that teach predominantly or exclusively in Basque have been increasing in popularity in the last decade.

Why are you talking about the Basque Country?

Barna77

bertie 56 wrote: »

" Supporters of intervention in Catalonia now try to stop boycott of Catalan products "

Intervention has nothing to do with boycott

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Why are you talking about the Basque Country?

If politicians are looking for alternative education models for each language, it seems a reasonable system:

X - 0.6% Education solely in Spanish
A - 26.2% " mainly " ", Basque compulsory subject
B - 23.2% 50/50 Basque/Spanish
C - 50.2% Education completely in Basque, but Spanish compulsory

Options are available, but trends favouring B and C over time.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The good auld victim card again.

I have the impression to hear someone talking about women rapes 30 years ago ... :rolleyes:

Anyway, I was talking about the political prisoners.
You could have found it out in translating the 3 words of the picture ( " Freedom for the political prisoners ") .

Ah, doesn't matter....

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

Intervention has nothing to do with boycott

Maybe, but boycott has something to do with intervention ...;)

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

But they are mad up there :eek:
That's what my father used to say

A lick of racism, it is all what was needed to complete the picture !

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An Ciarraioch wrote: »

If politicians are looking for alternative education models for each language, it seems a reasonable system:

X - 0.6% Education solely in Spanish
A - 26.2% " mainly " ", Basque compulsory subject
B - 23.2% 50/50 Basque/Spanish
C - 50.2% Education completely in Basque, but Spanish compulsory

Options are available, but trends favouring B and C over time.

If politicians are trying to instil an ideology that oppresses children from speaking their native language in school then it shoiuld be a cause for concern.

This is the whole problem with Catalan independence, it's turned into a man made nationalist movement that wants to instil an ideology than never previously existed.

Just look at the symptoms:

Compulsory language;
Putting up borders;
Blaming another part of society for their problems with their mantra "Madrid is robbing you":
Rewriting history;
Indoctrinating children in schools;
Disregarding their own democratic institutions on numerous occasions by passing legislation that didn't have the required majority;
Using state broadcasters to portray one side of the story;
A minority of people imposing their ideals on the majority;
Making a unilateral Declaration of Independence.

You would be forgiven for waking up and thinking it was 1939 but for some reason it's ok for the Independence movement to carry out all these actions but ironically the accusations of fascism are leveled against Madrid???

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Looks like the Catalan police to me...

With a Spanish flag in the uniform ?
Yeah, right... :D:D

Adéu ! :D:D

Hector Savage

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Latest official data is from 2013, but if anything, Catalans appear to be perfectly bilingual, and a sizeable proportion also speak Englush:

https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=aec&n=1013

They dont speak English

But true, they are bilingual - it comes later though.

bertie 56

Today in La Vanguardia :

" A group of jurists denounce that the application of 155 is unconstitutional "

" They conclude that the article of the Constitution does not allow the "discretionary" cessation of the Government or authorizes Rajoy to dissolve Parliament. "

" The application of article 155 by the Government of Mariano Rajoy to intervene the Generalitat de Catalunya was unconstitutional. This is stated by a group of jurists and experts in Constitutional Law and other branches of law.."

" ....the signatories of these conclusions point to "contrary to the constitutional order" the "discretionary" cessation of President Puigdemont, Vice President Oriol Junqueras and the rest of the members of the Government. In his opinion, article 2 and 152.2 of the Constitution do not allow it "

" And the dissolution of the Parliament also considers unconstitutional, a faculty that only corresponds to the president of the Generalitat. For these jurists, the same articles 2 and 152.2 are being violated by the Government's actions. "

" Fundamental rights violated

The jurists also emphasize that there have been measures of the central Government that "are contrary" to fundamental rights. In his opinion, the rights of political participation of the Catalans were violated when the Parliament was dissolved, while the obligation to abide by the Constitution violated the rights of freedom of conscience and expression. "

The full article is available here ( in Spanish )

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171212/433593414519/grupo-juristas-denuncia-aplicacion-155-inconstitucional.html

bertie 56

Hector Savage wrote: »

They dont speak English

But true, they are bilingual - it comes later though.

Well, I think they do speak English pretty good, ( for a non-English spoken country, I mean...)

Latest figures ( 2013 ) shows :
Understanding : 38%
Speaking : 31%
Reading : 34%
Writing : 30 %
Knowledge all competencies : 28 %


It is proved that bilingualism is already a great advantage for learning a language anyway.
The more you know, the easier it is to learn more...;)

And yes, bilingualism came later. There were mono-lingual before ( Catalan only )

Barna77

bertie 56 wrote: »

A lick of racism, it is all what was needed to complete the picture !

Oh Jesus...
I give up. Para ti la perra gorda

bertie 56

Barna77 wrote: »

Oh Jesus...
I give up. Para ti la perra gorda

Adios tronco, y pasalo bien todo ...

bertie 56

More police, more repression, more jail sentences, more partial justice ....
Every day more and more...
And people are surprised when Catalan people says " Franco " ?????

One person arrested at the private postal company on charges of distributing polling supervisor notices for the October 1 referendum
http://catalannews.com/society-science/item/spain-s-guardia-civil-police-raids-delivery-company-over-referendum

2 years of jail and 14.000 euro fines asked for a president of a Catalan soccer fan-club .
Basques , Catalans ( and surely Spanish ones too ! ) soccer fans were booing the spanish anthem during the 2015 " King's Cup " ( Copa del Rey )
http://www.ccma.cat/324/laudiencia-nacional-jutja-la-xiulada-a-himne-i-al-rei-a-la-final-de-copa-del-2015/noticia/2826150/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r36eHW03l1s


The new judge investigating on the Catalan referendum participates in pro-unionist marches & shares anti-independence articles:
http://www.directe.cat/noticia/694868/el-nou-jutge-de-la-investigacio-de-l-1-o-participa-en-manifestacions-de-scc-llegeix-dolca-

Impartial justice ? Where ?

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bertie 56 wrote: »

Today in La Vanguardia :

" A group of jurists denounce that the application of 155 is unconstitutional "

" They conclude that the article of the Constitution does not allow the "discretionary" cessation of the Government or authorizes Rajoy to dissolve Parliament. "

" The application of article 155 by the Government of Mariano Rajoy to intervene the Generalitat de Catalunya was unconstitutional. This is stated by a group of jurists and experts in Constitutional Law and other branches of law.."

" ....the signatories of these conclusions point to "contrary to the constitutional order" the "discretionary" cessation of President Puigdemont, Vice President Oriol Junqueras and the rest of the members of the Government. In his opinion, article 2 and 152.2 of the Constitution do not allow it "

" And the dissolution of the Parliament also considers unconstitutional, a faculty that only corresponds to the president of the Generalitat. For these jurists, the same articles 2 and 152.2 are being violated by the Government's actions. "

" Fundamental rights violated

The jurists also emphasize that there have been measures of the central Government that "are contrary" to fundamental rights. In his opinion, the rights of political participation of the Catalans were violated when the Parliament was dissolved, while the obligation to abide by the Constitution violated the rights of freedom of conscience and expression. "

The full article is available here ( in Spanish )

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171212/433593414519/grupo-juristas-denuncia-aplicacion-155-inconstitucional.html

The fundamental rights that were violated was when a minority government pushed passed their own parliamentary rules and tried to impose direct rule on the majority of citizens in Catalonia who don't want independence.

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bertie 56 wrote: »

Well, I think they do speak English pretty good, ( for a non-English spoken country, I mean...)

Latest figures ( 2013 ) shows :
Understanding : 38%
Speaking : 31%
Reading : 34%
Writing : 30 %
Knowledge all competencies : 28 %


It is proved that bilingualism is already a great advantage for learning a language anyway.
The more you know, the easier it is to learn more...;)

And yes, bilingualism came later. There were mono-lingual before ( Catalan only )

Catalan and Spanish are almost identical so it's not real bilingualism, this is why the whole argument about Catalonia having it's own culture is questionable but seems to be accepted at face value. Catalan culture is essentially Spanish culture, when you take away the "language" there are very little differences.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The fundamental rights that were violated was when a minority government pushed passed their own parliamentary rules and tried to impose direct rule on the majority of citizens in Catalonia who don't want independence.

Please read the " POLITICS CHARTER " :

" Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned "

If you still have problems to differentiate majority and minority , please re-read post #1248

Banned for one day.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Catalan and Spanish are almost identical so it's not real bilingualism, this is why the whole argument about Catalonia having it's own culture is questionable but seems to be accepted at face value. Catalan culture is essentially Spanish culture, when you take away the "language" there are very little differences.

Why not a trip to Catalonia to learn the basics ?

https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/plan-trip/destinations/flights-to-barcelona

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bertie 56 wrote: »

Why not a trip to Catalonia to learn the basics ?

https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/plan-trip/destinations/flights-to-barcelona

If you take away the language, there are very little differences between Spanish and Catalan culture.

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bertie 56 wrote: »

Why not a trip to Catalonia to learn the basics ?

https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/plan-trip/destinations/flights-to-barcelona

No thanks, they'll probably get offended if I ask for the menu in Spanish.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Please read the " POLITICS CHARTER " :

" Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned "

If you still have problems to differentiate majority and minority , please re-read post #1248

Please read the Catalan statutes of autonomy that require a two thirds majority to pass any legislation on independence. An objectionable fact which you continuously ignore.

Barna77

bertie 56 wrote: »

Why not a trip to Catalonia to learn the basics ?

https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/plan-trip/destinations/flights-to-barcelona

I see pimientos de Padrón there.
Is Padrón in Barcelona?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Please read the Catalan statutes of autonomy that require a two thirds majority to pass any legislation on independence. An objectionable fact which you continuously ignore.

Being able to read a menu in Spanish and being able to understand law texts in Spanish is two different things, my friend.

We've been pages and pages talking about this and you are still block with that.

What do you want me to say to you ???

Just read and try to understand what was posted many times previously about this subject. You have everything there to understand the processes .

No need to post and re-post always the same "argument" if you haven't get the whole picture ...

Just make the effort once for good, please ! :rolleyes:

bertie 56

Spain to Catalonia : " You want a bit more of Spanish democracy , or you are full ? "

The Spanish Supreme court refused to release Jordi Sànchez to campaign in elections.
( Jordi SANCHEZ is now in preventive jail without trial for the last 58 days )

" The Supreme Court (TS) has rejected that the former president of the ANC Jordi Sànchez may participate in the 21-D campaign. The magistrate Pablo Llarena has denied the permissions to leave prison, the contact with means outside the ordinary regime of visits and the connection to Internet to the candidate of Together for Catalonia."

https://www.naciodigital.cat/noticia/144833/suprem/no/permet/jordi/sanchez/sortir/preso/fer/campanya

Everything normal in FrancoLand so far... :rolleyes:

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Being able to read a menu in Spanish and being able to understand law texts in Spanish is two different things, my friend.

We've been pages and pages talking about this and you are still block with that.

What do you want me to say to you ???

Just read and try to understand what was posted many times previously about this subject. You have everything there to understand the processes .

No need to post and re-post always the same "argument" if you haven't get the whole picture ...

Just make the effort once for good, please ! :rolleyes:

Unlike you, I post facts and not pictures and the fact remains that a two thirds majority was required to pass a bill calling for a referendum and a two thirds majority was required to make the UDI, this is why almost half of the Catalan parliament walked out in protest because the pro independence parties were breaking their own Parliamentary rules.

This is so well documented at this stage that it takes quite the effort of willful ignorance to think that the votes and the UDI were not in breach of their own parliamentary rules. Even Puigdemont was not naive to this fact which is why he ran to Belgium.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Unlike you, I post facts and not pictures and the fact remains that a two thirds majority was required to pass a bill calling for a referendum and a two thirds majority was required to make the UDI, this is why almost half of the Catalan parliament walked out in protest because the pro independence parties were breaking their own Parliamentary rules.

This is so well documented at this stage that it takes quite the effort of willful ignorance to think that the votes and the UDI were not in breach of their own parliamentary rules. Even Puigdemont was not naive to this fact which is why he ran to Belgium.

I can only advise you to go ASAP in touch with the legal team of the Catalonia Government. I'm pretty sure your expertise in this precise legal domain will be welcome.
You have a brilliant career ahead, my friend !

( all this to be taken lightly, nothing personal ... )

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

I can only advise you to go ASAP in touch with the legal team of the Catalonia Government. I'm pretty sure your expertise in this precise legal domain will be welcome.
You have a brilliant career ahead, my friend !

( all this to be taken lightly, nothing personal ... )

The legal advice from the Generalitat of Catalonia would be like getting legal advice from Julius Caesar who said

"If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it"

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Catalan and Spanish are almost identical so it's not real bilingualism, this is why the whole argument about Catalonia having it's own culture is questionable but seems to be accepted at face value. Catalan culture is essentially Spanish culture, when you take away the "language" there are very little differences.

Isn't that effectively like saying Spanish and Portuguese are virtually identical?

https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/mutual-intelligibility-in-the-romance-languages/

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An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Isn't that effectively like saying Spanish and Portuguese are virtually identical?

https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/mutual-intelligibility-in-the-romance-languages/

Aside from the fact that Portugal is a different country and that Catalonia has been part of Spain for the past 500 years and Spanish is spoken on a daily basis in Catalonia.

Leaving that aside, I think you're missing the overall point. The education system in Catalonia is being used as a political weapon by the pro independence movement as a form of social engineering. Historians in Spain are aghast at how schools in Catalonia are literally rewriting history to indoctrinate hatred against Spain.

Take @bertie_56 as an example of his general discourse on this thread. Alot of his posts are over emotional statements about Franco, suppression and impartial justice with images and memes to stoke emotions. That gives you an idea of the level of discourse that kids are hearing in schools and what the regional broadcaster TV3 is communicating to people in Catalonia.

Also notice when someone like me, posts an indisputable fact like that the Catalan Statutes of Autonomy can only be changed by a two thirds majority. Taken from the economist which @bertie_56 has cited himself to try and prove a point https://www.economist.com/news/europe/21724960-prime-minister-mariano-rajoy-says-vote-illegal-and-vows-block-it-catalonia-plans

"Catalonia’s own autonomy statute, which Mr Puigdemont’s law would replace, can only be amended by a two-thirds majority of its parliament."

You can also have a look at article 56 of the statute here. Yet @berti_56 reaction is to completely ignore that statement and to go off to a troll farm website that is used by a bunch of pro independence activists and post memes, and copy and paste numbers and articles from all over the internet to give the impression that there is merit to what they are posting when it's just alot of noise that is completely irrelevant.

You have to ask the question, at what stage does the truth not matter to these people anymore? These are objectionable facts that they keep choosing to ignore and just circle back to the same arguments about Franco and fascism. If that were the case and there was such oppression in Catalonia then why would central government give them so much autonomy in the first place?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Aside from the fact that Portugal is a different country and that Catalonia has been part of Spain for the past 500 years and Spanish is spoken on a daily basis in Catalonia.

Leaving that aside, I think you're missing the overall point. The education system in Catalonia is being used as a political weapon by the pro independence movement as a form of social engineering. Historians in Spain are aghast at how schools in Catalonia are literally rewriting history to indoctrinate hatred against Spain.

Take @bertie_56 as an example of his general discourse on this thread. Alot of his posts are over emotional statements about Franco, suppression and impartial justice with images and memes to stoke emotions. That gives you an idea of the level of discourse that kids are hearing in schools and what the regional broadcaster TV3 is communicating to people in Catalonia.

Also notice when someone like me, posts an indisputable fact like that the Catalan Statutes of Autonomy can only be changed by a two thirds majority. Taken from the economist which @bertie_56 has cited himself to try and prove a point https://www.economist.com/news/europe/21724960-prime-minister-mariano-rajoy-says-vote-illegal-and-vows-block-it-catalonia-plans



You can also have a look at article 56 of the statute here. Yet @berti_56 reaction is to completely ignore that statement and to go off to a troll farm website that is used by a bunch of pro independence activists and post memes, and copy and paste numbers and articles from all over the internet to give the impression that there is merit to what they are posting when it's just alot of noise that is completely irrelevant.

You have to ask the question, at what stage does the truth not matter to these people anymore? These are objectionable facts that they keep choosing to ignore and just circle back to the same arguments about Franco and fascism. If that were the case and there was such oppression in Catalonia then why would central government give them so much autonomy in the first place?

.