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Catalan independence referendum, 2017
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An Ciarraioch wrote: »For stats nerds like myself, the database below gives the number of Catalans abroad, with over 1,100 currently resident in Ireland:
https://www.idescat.cat/phre/?b=1&res=a&nac=d113
That makes 210.000 Catalans of the age of voting around the world ( over 19 in reality )
And 776 in Ireland, of the age of voting ( over 19 in reality )
The count is not totally exact, though, for two reasons :
- one minor is we don't have the count of people who are between 18 and 19 . So these "voters" are not included in the total .
- All Catalans are not registered in the embassy ( I know some personally ). But hard to tell the precise number.
Anyway, that is a lot of people , and a lot of lost voices if they can't vote ! ...
What surprise me is the amount of children in Ireland ( 20% are under 9 years old ).
In Catalonia itself, they represent only 10 % of the total population.
( I see already some worries growing in some heads : " And if they ask to be educated in Catalan, what ? )
:D:D
https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=aec&n=253&lang=en0 -
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On a lighter mode , and to give a praise to the Catalan people for their ingenuity and non violent ways :
Here is one policeman who's job is to take off all yellow parts from a public Christmas tree . ( yellow being a banned color in Catalonia nowadays , since it is the symbol of the political prisoners ) .
No problem . Solution found ... ( translation is : " Here there was a yellow ribbon" ):D
Clever, non-violent and, in a way , a bit funny...
( Could be more funny again if Spain and Catalonia weren't at level 4 on 5 on the current terrorist threat alert... ) :rolleyes:0 -
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On a lighter mode , and to give a praise to the Catalan people for their ingenuity and non violent ways :
Here is one policeman who's job is to take off all yellow parts from a public Christmas tree . ( yellow being a banned color in Catalonia nowadays , since it is the symbol of the political prisoners ) .
No problem . Solution found ... ( translation is : " Here there was a yellow ribbon" ):D
Clever, non-violent and, in a way , a bit funny...
( Could be more funny again if Spain and Catalonia weren't at level 4 on 5 on the current terrorist threat alert... ) :rolleyes:
The colour yellow was banned from being used on public monuments and public places by the electoral council which is a state body which oversees elections. The reasons is because Approx. 20 public monuments were turned yellow in and around 15 November for the politicians who are currently in prison. As public buildings and monuments belong to ALL people in Catalonia, not just the minority who favour independence, the election council ruled that by allowing the public buildings and monuments to be turned yellow as a sign of support for one politician persuasion is akin to supporting that political opinion. This would be similar to Irish monuments and public buildings being coloured or light up with pro life/choice colours in the run up to the referendum or pro life/choice advocates going into public buildings and hanging their ribbons on the Christmas trees in public buildings. Once again indepes have no regard for the rule of law and try to play the victim and @bertie_56 being totally diengenious and misrepresenting the facts.0 -
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A couple of more information about the ban of the yellow in Catalonia.
Yes, the ban is the fact of the Central Electoral Board , from Madrid. I said it already in some previous posts. No " misleading" here ...
I don't have to say that this board is defending Madrid interests .
I don't have to say neither that the Mossos d'Esquadra are under the orders of Madrid, since the 155 article , with the sacked and judicial problems of their former chief Josep Lluís Trapero . So no choice really , they have to follow Madrid's orders...
It is necessary to note as well that the apparition of yellow ribbons , banners, etc is not the fact of one political party . It is primary the action of the citizens ( plenty of pictures of Catalonia streets about that, and abroad too ! ) . " Comities of support " are the citizens initiative . And yes, this action has the support of a group of political parties too . Four out of the seven important parties in Catalonia are backing up this .
I wouldn't defend a banner saying " Vote CUP " on a City Council. But it is not what is written . What is written goes over the barriers between the political parties ( from lefties to liberal , from independentists to federalists )
And on a moral side, yes, it is abnormal to have political prisoners in a election in Europe now.
It's not me who says that .
Iceta ( PSC - unionists ) said that , yes, the elections are not " normal " ones because of that .
And it is completely normal that the concern citizens and a majority of political parties are showing , in a non violent way, their opposition to that anti-democratic situation .
Saying nothing is accepting the situation .
Close to that , C's with their millions are spreading all over the " plazas " of the Catalonia towns ( which are public places ) , with their orange inflatable tents , but this seems OK for the Electoral Board .
Other places have a Spanish flag at the base of the Christmas tree, and that is OK .( it is actually a bit sad, a Christmas tree without yellow at all ! )
Everybody who knows a bit of Spain will say that this is not surprising.
Sadly, this double standard way of dealing with this kind of things is common in Spain
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A couple of more information about the ban of the yellow in Catalonia.
Yes, the ban is the fact of the Central Electoral Board , from Madrid. I said it already in some previous posts. No " misleading" here ...
I don't have to say that this board is defending Madrid interests .
I don't have to say neither that the Mossos d'Esquadra are under the orders of Madrid, since the 155 article , with the sacked and judicial problems of their former chief Josep Lluís Trapero . So no choice really , they have to follow Madrid's orders...
It is necessary to note as well that the apparition of yellow ribbons , banners, etc is not the fact of one political party . It is primary the action of the citizens ( plenty of pictures of Catalonia streets about that, and abroad too ! ) . " Comities of support " are the citizens initiative . And yes, this action has the support of a group of political parties too . Four out of the seven important parties in Catalonia are backing up this .
I wouldn't defend a banner saying " Vote CUP " on a City Council. But it is not what is written . What is written goes over the barriers between the political parties ( from lefties to liberal , from independentists to federalists )
And on a moral side, yes, it is abnormal to have political prisoners in a election in Europe now.
It's not me who says that .
Iceta ( PSC - unionists ) said that , yes, the elections are not " normal " ones because of that .
And it is completely normal that the concern citizens and a majority of political parties are showing , in a non violent way, their opposition to that anti-democratic situation .
Saying nothing is accepting the situation .
Close to that , C's with their millions are spreading all over the " plazas " of the Catalonia towns ( which are public places ) , with their orange inflatable tents , but this seems OK for the Electoral Board .
Other places have a Spanish flag at the base of the Christmas tree, and that is OK .( it is actually a bit sad, a Christmas tree without yellow at all ! )
Everybody who knows a bit of Spain will say that this is not surprising.
Sadly, this double standard way of dealing with this kind of things is common in Spain
The Spanish national flag is the internationally recognised flag of Spain which also includes Catalonia regardless of whether you like that fact or not. The yellow ribbon is a political symbol that has been adopted by a number of political parties. It is not the same thing. Plenty of people are flying the Catalan flag why should others not be allowed to fly the Spanish flag. I'm sorry but none of your arguments stand up to scrutiny.
It appears that the independence movement is making excuses in advance of not getting the required parliamentary seats to push through their reforms so they are crying foul in advance.0 -
In an heavier mode now, some legal information about how the independence could be done legally.
This document has been written by Joan Vintró, Professor of Constitutional Law at University of Barcelona
It has been written prior to the regional elections of 2012 .
" LEGALITY AND THE REFERENDUM ON INDEPENDENCE IN CATALONIA
http://idpbarcelona.net/docs/blog/legality_referendum.pdf
This text has to be read quietly , with taking everything in account.
As said before, the reality is a bit more complicate than " having 2/3 of majority in the Catalonia Parliament " . I don't see the need for a Professor in Law to write 3 pages ( and this is the resume ! ) if the answer of all this would have been " 2/3 " in two lines ... :rolleyes:
Anyway ...
The third option that the document talked about has been put in place in 2014, which was a non-binding referendum , about self -determination.
A Consultation Law is voted , at 106-for, 28-against, to organize the non-binding referendum . ( ( That is more than 2/3, by the way ).
One week after, a decree . Blocked by Spain .
This referendum has been declared " unconstitutional " by the Constitutional Court of Spain . That mean " null " by Spanish Laws, not Catalan Laws.
A month after, The Spanish Congress blocked the right to Catalonia to organize another referendum . Spanish blockage again.
( By the way, it is important to say that this referendum was organized in a proper way, no police beating voters this time . Results were 80% for the creation of an independent state . The boycott of the unionists made a weak turnout of 43% .)
Another example, the " Declaració de sobirania i del dret a decidir del poble de Catalunya " ( declaration of sovereignty and rights of the Catalan people to decide " , in January 2013 .Results were 85 -for , 41-against . More than 2/3 once again .
Suspended by the Constitutional Court of Spain. Spanish blockage once again.
It's what I said from the beginning : whatever side you take the problem, whatever majority is on the Catalonia Parliament, the blockage come from Spain. 2/3 or not...
It is Joan Vintró conclusion too .
Yes, there is legal ways, but not reachable for Catalonia only .
Even with 100% independentists in the Parliament and 100% independentists in the street.
That is the key there.
IAnother solution would be convincing the King, the central Governement and half of Spain to take their political card with CUP( left independentist) .
Yep, legal all right !
PS : I could have talk as well about " why the 2017 referendum is declared illegal by Spain " : 2/3 in Catalonia Parliament ??? or Spanish Constitution blockage ???0 -
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This text has to be read quietly , with taking everything in account.
As said before, the reality is a bit more complicate than " having 2/3 of majority in the Catalonia Parliament " . I don't see the need for a Professor in Law to write 3 pages ( and this is the resume ! ) if the answer of all this would have been " 2/3 " in two lines ... :rolleyes:
Anyway ...
The third option that the document talked about has been put in place in 2014, which was a non-binding referendum , about self -determination.
A Consultation Law is voted , at 106-for, 28-against, to organize the non-binding referendum . ( ( That is more than 2/3, by the way ).
One week after, a decree . Blocked by Spain .
This referendum has been declared " unconstitutional " by the Constitutional Court of Spain . That mean " null " by Spanish Laws, not Catalan Laws.
A month after, The Spanish Congress blocked the right to Catalonia to organize another referendum . Spanish blockage again.
( By the way, it is important to say that this referendum was organized in a proper way, no police beating voters this time . Results were 80% for the creation of an independent state . The boycott of the unionists made a weak turnout of 43% .)
Another example, the " Declaració de sobirania i del dret a decidir del poble de Catalunya " ( declaration of sovereignty and rights of the Catalan people to decide " , in January 2013 .Results were 85 -for , 41-against . More than 2/3 once again .
Suspended by the Constitutional Court of Spain. Spanish blockage once again.
It's what I said from the beginning : whatever side you take the problem, whatever majority is on the Catalonia Parliament, the blockage come from Spain. 2/3 or not...
It is Joan Vintró conclusion too .
Yes, there is legal ways, but not reachable for Catalonia only .
Even with 100% independentists in the Parliament and 100% independentists in the street.
That is the key there.
IAnother solution would be convincing the King, the central Governement and half of Spain to take their political card with CUP( left independentist) .
Yep, legal all right !
PS : I could have talk as well about " why the 2017 referendum is declared illegal by Spain " : 2/3 in Catalonia Parliament ??? or Spanish Constitution blockage ???
But that's how Parliamentary politics works! Just because you don't like the results does not give indepes the right to break those rules to suit their own agenda. independence parties would be better served by lobbying other political parties like PSOE who are more sympathetic than PP towards independence. PP are only in government by a small minority so it's not unreasonable to expect that another party could form the next government.
Be that as it may, the 2014 referendum clearly showed that based on a 43% turnout with 80% in favour of independence, this represents about 34% of people eligible to vote are in favour of independence. This is still way off the required majority.0 -
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An Ciarraioch wrote: »La Vanguardia reports that requests for postal votes abroad have risen to 40,000, but guessing which party, if any, this would favour would be purely speculatory:
http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171219/433761268808/elecciones-cataluna-voto-correo-extranjero-participacion.html
As said the article, the votes from outside did reach " far more " than 60% for the independentists side at the last 2015 elections ( " superando holgadamente la cota del 60% " )
And traditionally, PP are always getting low scores abroad.
It would have been nice to read about the irregularities of the votes from abroad in the article , though ( 3000 votes lost in Italy in 2005 :rolleyes: ) .
Let see if the record is beated this time...
Edit : figures checked : exactly 67 % of voters abroad were for independentist movement. ( in 2015 )
http://governacio.gencat.cat/ca/pgov_ambits_d_actuacio/pgov_eleccions/pgov_dades_electorals/resultats-2?id_eleccions=A20151&id_territori=CA090 -
It would have been nice to read about the irregularities of the votes from abroad in the article , though ( 3000 votes lost in Italy in 2005 :rolleyes: ) .
Let see if the record is beated this time...
Why don't you address the voting irregularities that took place on Oct 1st. Do you still believe that this was a legitimate referendum and the result should stand despite all the voting irregularities that have been mentioned numerous times but you choose to ignore?0 -
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Tomorrow is the last day before the election . It is traditionally a " reflexion day " , without any electoral activity .
( Ley Orgánica del Regimen Electoral General 5/1985, 19 de junio for those interested ).
For my part :
Bona nit, vota bé !
( good night , vote well )
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Tomorrow is the last day before the election . It is traditionally a " reflexion day " , without any electoral activity .
( Ley Orgánica del Regimen Electoral General 5/1985, 19 de junio for those interested ).
Bona nit, vota bé !
( good night , vote well )
The final three polls of the campaign - two Scottish, one El Periodico, will be released tomorrow, however.0 -
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