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Catalan independence referendum, 2017
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No what you said was ''in the absence of a proper referendum we do what we have ''
That could mean anything up to and including violence
First, I didn't say " ''in the absence of a proper referendum we do what we have '' , as you are quoting .... I said ... " ( ... ) we do with what we have (...)
And when you quote a sentence, quote it fully . Otherwise it doesn't make sense ....
Violence ???
.
What I said is about numbers.
I talked about numbers before, and I talk about numbers after...
So I talked about numbers in between !
The complete sentence would have been :
"The problem we have is that , in absence of numbers coming from a proper referendum, we do with what we have, which is the numbers of the 21st dec elections.
Does it makes sense to you now ???
( I'm not an English native speaker, as you surely saw before
)
Hope this misunderstanding is cleared now...0 -
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It's not that " I don't like the publication " . It's that they have been caught red-handed lying ! Fake news ! Fake facts ! And not for the first time !
Talking about been caught red-handed, a quick one from this week :
Fransisco Pérez de los Cobos, the former president of Spain's Constitutional Court ( ie : Mister big head who is warrantor of the Spanish Constitution , not a small judge ) apply to be judge at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg ( not a small court , and a kind of important one ! )
Send his CV saying he is "good" in English, "very good " in French.
Got an interview in English and French, understood nothing and ask " Could you ask me in Spanish ? "
Got his note : 0 out of 10
A President of the Constitutional Court ! Caught red-handed lying ... Classy:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
This without saying that he is a PP member, and was heavily supported by M.Rajoy for getting the job ( would have been handy to have a friend at this job, when my political prisonners are coming to EU to complain... ) , with a " not so clean " past .
Well, the usual when you are at this level , sadly...
His brother ( extreme right , participate in the Tejero coup d'Etat in 1981, classy too ! ) is a colonel of the Guardia Civil , and was “technical director” during the Catalan referendum ( truncheon side )
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/spain-s-former-top-judge-fails-the-language-exam-for-new-european-role_231387_102.html
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/colonel-perez-cobos-prosecuted-torture-eta_194727_102.html .
One by one, what I think of your list :
1 - Irrelevant . Are the Irish ballot boxes " Made in Ireland " ?
This Chinese company provides other countries like Lithuania or Australia with ballot boxes ( ARA source ) . Something wrong with that ?And yep, sadly now, everything " plastic " come from China...
2 - Irrelevant . Are you sure they slept in the ballot boxes ? I doubt it, they were kind of small ... Anyway, proud to see this commitment to defend their own rights and own ideas. An example for democracy, so it is...
3 - Irrelevant . Opaque/ transparent ...Could have been better transparent, it is true . Now if you prove me that they had a double bottom, or have been filled beforehand ( like the C's envelopes the 21 of Dec ) , alright....
4 - I don't get this one, sorry.
5 - Wrong . There was a census ( and you say it in the next line ) and an official one ( it wasn't the Yellow Pages ! )
6 - Wrong, that was done 45 minutes before , not after .They decided that you could vote in one place or the other. This is due to different facts : not everybody got the information where to vote ( websites shut ) , and some polling stations would be raided by police. But that doesn't mean you could vote systematically few times. You could vote at different places, but only once.
7 - Irrelevant. They vote this way in the Parliament as well .
My explanation is : I suppose it was hard enough for them to provide the ballot ( thousands seized before the day ) , to have this problem of envelopes to deal with . Plus the cost : Spain blocked the finances of Catalonia few weeks prior the referendum. Anyway, don't take the people for " tontos " neither, you see if you put 1 or 5 ballots in the box... If not, you won't see neither if you put 1 or 5 envelopes !
8 - Wrong . Wordpress blog lasted only few minutes before being shut down by the police ...
9 - Wrong, and exceptionally right . It has happened, it's true, due to the Internet shutdown and "overload " of servers. Cross-checked with the census has been done afterwards .
10 - Irrelevant. That is normal ( see 6 ) . That doesn't mean they voted more than once each.
11 - Wrong / Right . They were some international observers present in the place. Not as would have required a normal vote , I reckon ( same as the 21st dec elections, by the way... :rolleyes:)
I saw a picture of a guy voting twice. Hard to say if it was exactly the same person, his head was blur. And hard to say if it wasn't a staged situation . It might have happen , I don't know. All I can say is that I haven't seen a clear video of the same person voting twice. ( That doesn't say it doesn't exist ) .
I saw as well one video of a guy trying to vote twice and got denied. But this could have be staged as well .
The video I saw about people voting in the street was a demonstration, they weren't voting for real. As in the images of the SkyNews team I previously posted.
( Now, I haven't seen all the Youtube videos neither ! )
The number of the voters are anyway not 100 /100 sure . It was a bit hectic . Some ballots disappear with the police anyway. Some people didn't go voting when they got the news that the police was firing rubber-bullets and kicking the old ladies ( from the " yes " and from the " No ", both sides ... )
So, of course, there is an uncertainty on the exact amount of voters. For the " Yes " and for the " No" , both sides ...
But I don't see how they could have add 1, 2 or 500.000 voters for the " yes " when you see the results of the elections of the 21 dec, with 35.000 " yes " voters more !
Mathematically, it simply doesn't make sense ...
For those with a " nerd " tendency, an interesting conference about censorship during the referendum can be seen here : a bit of history , a bit of politics, a lot of " ICANN , cloudflare, Https and TLS ( I didn't get everything of this part )
Internet censorship in the Catalan referendum
Overview of how the state censored and how it got circumvented .
https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9028-internet_censorship_in_the_catalan_referendum#t=977
in English.
No arguments, just rhetoric, memes and slogans.0 -
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Celia Late Troop wrote: »A Prosecutor applied for an arrest warrant and a Spanish judge refused it, the rest of your post is speculation and an attempt to discredit your opponents and talk about anything other than the merits of Catalan independence.
What you should be more concerned about is the level of media bias in the Catalan TV, radio and press. Any link with a .cat domain cannot be taken seriously.
"A new report by RSF cites harassment of journalists on social network and propaganda pressure from the Catalan government"
http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/13/media-operating-under-poisonous-climate-in-catalonia-says-reporters-without
“We are deeply disturbed by videos from Barcelona showing attempts to intimidate TV reporters,” Adès-Mevel said. “We urge the Catalan authorities to condemn the stigmatization of the Spanish media, the attempts to blame them for a situation that is political in origin. This blaming of the media echoes the campaigns of Donald Trump and far-right movements.”
https://rsf.org/en/news/catalan-referendum-attacks-journalists-biased-coverage
This just reinforces the level of indoctrination that has occurred in Catalonia over the past 20 years as part of their attempt to nation build.
Rule # 1: Blame another part of society for all your problems. (Where have we seen this before)
It is good you quoted Reporters without Borders.
Their last report about Spain says :
" Adopted in 2015, when the ruling PP ( Partido Popular ) still had absolute majority in parliament, the Gag Law’s repeal has been demanded by all opposition parties, which also accuse the government of exercising an outrageous level of control over the news program of the state radio and TV broadcaster, RTVE "
https://rsf.org/en/spain
It is good as well that you talk about the impartiality of the Catalan media, a report from today says that " TV3 i Catalunya Ràdi were the most plural media during the 21nd electoral campaign " .
" The candidate Inés Arrimadas ( unionist) is the one who had the longest time of speech in TV3, followed by Miquel Iceta, Xavier Domènech and Xavier García Albiol ( unionists ) The last ones : Carles Puigdemont, Marta Rovira and Carles Riera ( independentists ) .
https://www.scribd.com/document/370234808/Informe-del-CAC-sobre-la-campanya-del-21D#from_embed
Please note that none of the Catalan media has been condemned for " fake news " , at the difference of the Spanish one....
Please note as well that the day following the " bloody day" of the referendum , the employees of the Public Television in Spain went on strike, so ashame of the level of disinformation they were forced to broadcast ! :eek:
I won't troll the thread with more example, there is too much too say....
A last one from today , from El Razon :
( I won't comment the content, but have a look at the map : Belgium and Netherlands are not at their respective places in the map ...
Just to tell you the level !!!
https://www.larazon.es/espana/la-vuelta-im-posible-de-puigdemont-LH17543877
Anyway...
Today more pressure is growing towards the elected Parliement :
The spokesman of PP said about the new President of the Parliement Torrent : "
"He has 2 children, he knows what might happen...."
Mafia-type threat, no ?
Another prove of the collusion between justice and politics, from El Pais ( for a change ) :
In this article, El País admits that Spanish Governement illicitly put pressure on Constitutional Court members to try and stop Puigdemont becoming Catalonia's president:
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2018/01/28/actualidad/1517164077_657245.amp.html
Tomorrow is a big day, the investiture of the President of Catalonia will start at 3 .
A demonstration is planned to protect the Catalan institutions in front of the Parliament, to make sure that the electoral rights are respected ( ie : to have at the head of the country the person they have voted for... ). That is a base of the democracy, I think, and what makes the difference between a real democracy and a dictature ....
About the " freedom fighters ... "
"We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was 'legal' and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was 'illegal.'"
Dr. Martin Luther King
Letter from Birmingham Jail0 -
It is good you quoted Reporters without Borders.
Their last report about Spain says :
" Adopted in 2015, when the ruling PP ( PaPopular ) still had absolute majority in parliament, the Gag Law’s repeal has been demanded by all opposition parties, which also accuse the government of exercising an outrageous level of control over the news program of the state radio and TV broadcaster, RTVE "
https://rsf.org/en/spain
It is good as well that you talk about the impartiality of the Catalan media, a report from today says that " TV3 i Catalunya Ràdi were the most plural media during the 21nd electoral campaign " .
" The candidate Inés Arrimadas ( unionist) is the one who had the longest time of speech in TV3, followed by Miquel Iceta, Xavier Domènech and Xavier García Albiol ( unionists ) The last ones : Carles Puigdemont, Marta Rovira and Carles Riera ( independentists ) .
https://www.scribd.com/document/370234808/Informe-del-CAC-sobre-la-campanya-del-21D#from_embed
Please note that none of the Catalan media has been condemned for " fake news " , at the difference of the Spanish one....
Please note as well that the day following the " bloody day" of the referendum , the employees of the Public Television in Spain went on strike, so ashame of the level of disinformation they were forced to broadcast ! :eek:
I won't troll the thread with more example, there is too much too say....
A last one from today , from El Razon :
( I won't comment the content, but have a look at the map : Belgium and Netherlands are not at their respective places in the map ...
Just to tell you the level !!!
https://www.larazon.es/espana/la-vuelta-im-posible-de-puigdemont-LH17543877
Anyway...
Today more pressure is growing towards the elected Parliement :
The spokesman of PP said about the new President of the Parliement Torrent : "
"He has 2 children, he knows what might happen...."
Mafia-type threat, no ?
Another prove of the collusion between justice and politics, from El Pais ( for a change ) :
In this article, El País admits that Spanish Governement illicitly put pressure on Constitutional Court members to try and stop Puigdemont becoming Catalonia's president:
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2018/01/28/actualidad/1517164077_657245.amp.html
Tomorrow is a big day, the investiture of the President of Catalonia will start at 3 .
A demonstration is planned to protect the Catalan institutions in front of the Parliament, to make sure that the electoral rights are respected ( ie : to have at the head of the country the person they have voted for... ). That is a base of the democracy, I think, and what makes the difference between a real democracy and a dictature ....
About the " freedom fighters ... "
"We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was 'legal' and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was 'illegal.'"
Dr. Martin Luther King
Letter from Birmingham Jail
Actually there was numerous reports of the mainstream Catalan outlets misrepresenting information, to such an extent that reporters without borders were being harassed in addition to international reporters being screened as to what political persuasion they were before being allowed access to press and media conferences because the independence movement believes this is crucial to their cause as they know most people outside Spain are ignorant of the facts and will not see this for the man made nationalist movement that it is. There are numerous articles online about this from multiple news outlets but you can only provide articles from .cat domains which again just goes to show your confirmation bias because you avidly defend these news organisations that are clearly promoting misinformation.
Not one Catlan funded media outlet has criticised Puidgemont for plunging Catalonia into it's crisis despite the questionable decisions and poor judgement he showed which even your beloved comrads in Copenhagen asked him when they questioned him here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7aHlQXQikc
The reason they don't criticise is because the directors of these positions are appointed by the Catalan Parliament by a .... 2/3 Majority. The same 2/3 majority that is required by parliament to hold a referendum on independence but Puidgemont decided he didn't like those rules anymore so he decided to change them himself and declaring himself president of a new country and then when that didn't work he chickened out and ran off to Belgium and starting crying to the EU despite the fact that he publicly criticised the EU numerous times, and that by leaving Spain he was also leaving the EU, and the other small point that the party that kept him in Government in Catalonia ran on the basis of leaving the EU!
In other news...
Despite his trip to Copenhagen, none of the representatives from the government parties met him while he was there. https://www.thelocal.es/20180123/meeting-with-puigdemont-not-an-endorsement-danish-politician0 -
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Someone please find a link in English to the news about the text messages exchanged between Puigdemont and former conseller Toni Comín saying how the Spanish government has triumphed and Puigdemont has been "a escape goat"
Saint Puigdemont Martyr
They'll probably say now that this is all about espionage
I heard about this story alright. I haven't found a link in English neither, but I don't have any doubt that it will go out in th Spanish papers, it's a story at the level of the other news they usually write...
I won't translate the content of the exchange for two reasons :
- It's a private conversation, and since everybody has the right to privacy, I don't find it very " clean " to make this public. Spanish press don't have this deontology, apparently... Sad !!!
- Toni Comin did lodge a justice complain for " disclosure of private content " towards the TV show .
( I don't know the position of boards,ie about this kind of stuff, but Barna77 , feel free to go ahead if you feel like . I won't go this route myself ... )
The ( public ) answer of Puigdemont has been the following :
" I am a journalist and I have always understood that there are limits, such as privacy, which should never be violated. I am human and there are times that I am also in doubts . I am also the President and I will not overcome myself or I will not go back, by respect of the commitment of the citizens and the country. We continue ! "
Fair play to him for two reasons :
- he didn't deny the messages ( he could easily have ! )
- he didn't lodge any judicial complain ( he could have as well, being the first victim of this leak )0 -
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