Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Catalan independence referendum, 2017
Comments
-
[QUOTE=bertie 56;105946670
The problem we have is that , in absence of a proper referendum, we do with what we have.
[/QUOTE]
So if the existing structure don't give you the result you want just make up new ones ? Is that what you are saying ?0 -
-
-
No what you said was ''in the absence of a proper referendum we do what we have ''
That could mean anything up to and including violence
First, I didn't say " ''in the absence of a proper referendum we do what we have '' , as you are quoting .... I said ... " ( ... ) we do with what we have (...)
And when you quote a sentence, quote it fully . Otherwise it doesn't make sense ....
Violence ???.
What I said is about numbers.
I talked about numbers before, and I talk about numbers after...
So I talked about numbers in between !
The complete sentence would have been :
"The problem we have is that , in absence of numbers coming from a proper referendum, we do with what we have, which is the numbers of the 21st dec elections.
Does it makes sense to you now ???
( I'm not an English native speaker, as you surely saw before)
Hope this misunderstanding is cleared now...0 -
-
Advertisement
-
It's not that " I don't like the publication " . It's that they have been caught red-handed lying ! Fake news ! Fake facts ! And not for the first time !
Talking about been caught red-handed, a quick one from this week :
Fransisco Pérez de los Cobos, the former president of Spain's Constitutional Court ( ie : Mister big head who is warrantor of the Spanish Constitution , not a small judge ) apply to be judge at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg ( not a small court , and a kind of important one ! )
Send his CV saying he is "good" in English, "very good " in French.
Got an interview in English and French, understood nothing and ask " Could you ask me in Spanish ? "
Got his note : 0 out of 10
A President of the Constitutional Court ! Caught red-handed lying ... Classy:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
This without saying that he is a PP member, and was heavily supported by M.Rajoy for getting the job ( would have been handy to have a friend at this job, when my political prisonners are coming to EU to complain... ) , with a " not so clean " past .
Well, the usual when you are at this level , sadly...
His brother ( extreme right , participate in the Tejero coup d'Etat in 1981, classy too ! ) is a colonel of the Guardia Civil , and was “technical director” during the Catalan referendum ( truncheon side )
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/spain-s-former-top-judge-fails-the-language-exam-for-new-european-role_231387_102.html
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/colonel-perez-cobos-prosecuted-torture-eta_194727_102.html .
One by one, what I think of your list :
1 - Irrelevant . Are the Irish ballot boxes " Made in Ireland " ?
This Chinese company provides other countries like Lithuania or Australia with ballot boxes ( ARA source ) . Something wrong with that ?And yep, sadly now, everything " plastic " come from China...
2 - Irrelevant . Are you sure they slept in the ballot boxes ? I doubt it, they were kind of small ... Anyway, proud to see this commitment to defend their own rights and own ideas. An example for democracy, so it is...
3 - Irrelevant . Opaque/ transparent ...Could have been better transparent, it is true . Now if you prove me that they had a double bottom, or have been filled beforehand ( like the C's envelopes the 21 of Dec) , alright....
4 - I don't get this one, sorry.
5 - Wrong . There was a census ( and you say it in the next line ) and an official one ( it wasn't the Yellow Pages ! )
6 - Wrong, that was done 45 minutes before , not after .They decided that you could vote in one place or the other. This is due to different facts : not everybody got the information where to vote ( websites shut ) , and some polling stations would be raided by police. But that doesn't mean you could vote systematically few times. You could vote at different places, but only once.
7 - Irrelevant. They vote this way in the Parliament as well .
My explanation is : I suppose it was hard enough for them to provide the ballot ( thousands seized before the day ) , to have this problem of envelopes to deal with . Plus the cost : Spain blocked the finances of Catalonia few weeks prior the referendum. Anyway, don't take the people for " tontos " neither, you see if you put 1 or 5 ballots in the box... If not, you won't see neither if you put 1 or 5 envelopes !
8 - Wrong . Wordpress blog lasted only few minutes before being shut down by the police ...
9 - Wrong, and exceptionally right . It has happened, it's true, due to the Internet shutdown and "overload " of servers. Cross-checked with the census has been done afterwards .
10 - Irrelevant. That is normal ( see 6 ) . That doesn't mean they voted more than once each.
11 - Wrong / Right . They were some international observers present in the place. Not as would have required a normal vote , I reckon ( same as the 21st dec elections, by the way... :rolleyes:)
I saw a picture of a guy voting twice. Hard to say if it was exactly the same person, his head was blur. And hard to say if it wasn't a staged situation . It might have happen , I don't know. All I can say is that I haven't seen a clear video of the same person voting twice. ( That doesn't say it doesn't exist ) .
I saw as well one video of a guy trying to vote twice and got denied. But this could have be staged as well .
The video I saw about people voting in the street was a demonstration, they weren't voting for real. As in the images of the SkyNews team I previously posted.
( Now, I haven't seen all the Youtube videos neither !)
The number of the voters are anyway not 100 /100 sure . It was a bit hectic . Some ballots disappear with the police anyway. Some people didn't go voting when they got the news that the police was firing rubber-bullets and kicking the old ladies ( from the " yes " and from the " No ", both sides ... )
So, of course, there is an uncertainty on the exact amount of voters. For the " Yes " and for the " No" , both sides ...
But I don't see how they could have add 1, 2 or 500.000 voters for the " yes " when you see the results of the elections of the 21 dec, with 35.000 " yes " voters more !
Mathematically, it simply doesn't make sense ...
For those with a " nerd " tendency, an interesting conference about censorship during the referendum can be seen here : a bit of history , a bit of politics, a lot of " ICANN , cloudflare, Https and TLS ( I didn't get everything of this part)
Internet censorship in the Catalan referendum
Overview of how the state censored and how it got circumvented .
https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9028-internet_censorship_in_the_catalan_referendum#t=977
in English.
No arguments, just rhetoric, memes and slogans.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 13683
johnnyskeleton wrote: »Mod note:
Please be civil. There is no need to personalise the debate.Celia Late Troop wrote: »No arguments, just rhetoric, memes and slogans.
Mod note:
Final warning. Please read the charter. You need to provide substance rather than simply dismissing something. If you genuinely think it is just rhetoric memes or slogans report the post or just dont reply.0 -
The limit-day of the investiture of the President of Catalonia is settled : it has to be before the 31st of January.
President Puigdemont has been chosen to be re-elected at the seat . ( he lost his seat after the Spanish " coup d'Etat * )
He is still in Belgium ( supposedly ! ) and will most probably want to come back to his homeland Catalonia to be invested.
Spain is now trying everything they can to prevent him coming back.
The Interior Minister of Spain said that Puigdemont " may be tempted to cross into Spain by helicopter, light aircraft or boat " and added “We’re going to see to it that he cannot enter — even in the trunk of a car.”
The frontiers are now heavily checked, with armed paramilitary police, national police and intelligence service .
1000 more Guardia Civil were sent there .
Small mountain roads and small airports are checked, as the sewage network under the Parliament of Barcelona ...
A bit like if the twice democratically elected President and MP was Osama Ben Laden....
The Spanish judicial system is boiling too ...
PP and PSOE did ask the Council of State to see how the investiture of Puigdemont could be prohibited ( nice democratic move ! )
The Council of State declared then that they see no legal basis to suspend Carles Puigdemont from standing as a candidate .
That is a big slap in the face for Rajoy and co, but sadly, their verdict is just advisory .
Rajoy had then declared that he will ignore the Council of State, and will appeal the planned presidential investiture at the Constitutional Court tomorrow...
Good prove, once again if needed, of the separation of powers between politic and justice...
Good prove, once again if needed, of the state of the democracy in this " banana-monarchic" country...
* That move of ousting President Puigdemont was illegal regarding Spanish laws.
Only the Parliement has this power ...0 -
The Spanish judicial system is boiling too ...
PP and PSOE did ask the Council of State to see how the investiture of Puigdemont could be prohibited ( nice democratic move ! )
The Council of State declared then that they see no legal basis to suspend Carles Puigdemont from standing as a candidate .
That is a big slap in the face for Rajoy and co, but sadly, their verdict is just advisory .
Rajoy had then declared that he will ignore the Council of State, and will appeal the planned presidential investiture at the Constitutional Court tomorrow...
Good prove, once again if needed, of the separation of powers between politic and justice...
Good prove, once again if needed, of the state of the democracy in this " banana-monarchic" country...
* That move of ousting President Puigdemont was illegal regarding Spanish laws.
Only the Parliement has this power ...
Puidgemeont was "ousted" under Article 155 of the constitution he chose to leave Spain and is considered a fugitive avoiding justice in Spain. Politicians who are in prison are not considered political prisoners. Bear in mind that they broke their own Parliamentary rules and the Spanish constitution, they are not modern day freedom fighters as the media in Catalonia try to portray.
The constitution takes precedence over any parliamentary laws so the "ousting" of Puidgemont is not "illegal". Also, it was a Spanish judge who refused to grant an IWA when Puidgemont was in Denmark, this would contradict what you are suggesting about the justice system being prejudiced against Catalonia and bear in mind that the council of state which supposedly ruled in your favour was established under article 107 of the ... Spanish Constitution. You're being very selective in the parts of the Spanish constitution which you agree with. You accept the provisions of article 107 and the council of state but you don't accept the provisions of article 155???
As I said numerous times, the indepes want everything both ways. None of the indepes arguments stand up to scrutiny and are littered with hypocrisy as outlined above.The limit-day of the investiture of the President of Catalonia is settled : it has to be before the 31st of January.
President Puigdemont has been chosen to be re-elected at the seat . ( he lost his seat after the Spanish " coup d'Etat * )
He is still in Belgium ( supposedly ! ) and will most probably want to come back to his homeland Catalonia to be invested.
Spain is now trying everything they can to prevent him coming back.
The Interior Minister of Spain said that Puigdemont " may be tempted to cross into Spain by helicopter, light aircraft or boat " and added “We’re going to see to it that he cannot enter — even in the trunk of a car.”
The frontiers are now heavily checked, with armed paramilitary police, national police and intelligence service .
1000 more Guardia Civil were sent there.
Small mountain roads and small airports are checked, as the sewage network under the Parliament of Barcelona ...
A bit like if the twice democratically elected President and MP was Osama Ben Laden....
Just like every other time the Parliament was sworn in, the police carry out security checks around Parliament. The only difference this time is that it is being carried out by the national police because the Mossos refused to carry out instructions of the judiciary when they refused to shut down the Oct 1 vote. Also, Catalonia is currently under direct rule so the central government are within their remit to instruct the Spanish police to carry out this task. There is no risk of Puidgemont sneaking back into Spain unnoticed he's a very high profile person.
Also, I notice that you now accept that the referendum was not legal which is a welcomed changed in your position."The problem we have is that , in absence of numbers coming from a proper referendum, we do with what we have, which is the numbers of the 21st dec elections.0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »Also, I notice that you now accept that the referendum was not legal which is a welcomed changed in your position.
I have answered to that already few times.
Etymologically , " proper " doesn't have the same meaning than " legal ".
In the same way, " legal in Spain " doesn't have the same meaning than " legal in Catalonia ".
One simple example :
Firing rubber bullets in Spain is legal, firing rubber bullets in Catalonia is illegal.
( Catalan Parliament Law from April 2014 ).
So, that is a fact, Spain has broken the law there ( A pacific guy lost an eye there...)
But since " The Law " is always on the side of the one who hold the truncheon, breaking Catalan laws seems to be legal for Spain...
And if it is not, no bother, they will find a text of law saying that what is illegal is now becoming legal :cool:. )
I'm still looking at finding a defender of "the rule of Law " condemning this ...
.
.
.0 -
Advertisement
-
" Spain is trying to have by force what they could not have by vote "
But little by little, the judicial hunt is showing its limits.
As planned, Rajoy and followers presented an appeal to the Constitutional Court, asking for the immediate suspension of Carles Puigdemont's candidacy for investiture as president of Catalonia .
The Spanish Council of State said already that there is no legal rule to stop Puigdemont investiture . ( see my post #1689 )
The problem is that this Council of State has now confirmed that Spanish government is committing a crime of intimidation and coercion against public officials (penal code art. 498) by trying to suspend next Tuesday's plenary.
Rajoy doesn't seem to be affected by that , and , running like a blind bull, will keep going breaking his own laws... :rolleyes:
An association of law professors, the Col·lectiu Praga, has announced they are preparing lawsuits against "those who take part" in presenting any appeal to Spain's Constitutional court against Carles Puigdemont's candidacy .
According to them, preventing the President's candidacy would be committing the crime of malfeasance and violating article 542 of the Penal Code.
JuntsxCat ( independentist party ) has declared later that they will go to the European Court of Human Rights of Strasbourg if the Constitutionnal Court or the Supreme Court does not stop Rajoy's appeal.
Talking about this European Court of Human Rights, the Spanish judge who will represent Spain has been finally chosen. After the 0/10 note of F. Pérez de los Cobos, the former President of Spain's Constitutional Court caught red-handed lying at his interview ( see post #1678 ), María Elósegui took finally the Human Rights judge job.
I just hope that, Irish women and LGBT , you won't need this European Court for defending your rights !
Her views on the subject are simply disgusting ...
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/homophobic-comments-spanish-judge-echr_232764_102.html0 -
The case of the trip of Puigdemont in Denmark is interesting.
Within the government , and within the unionists who support their politics , appeared two distincts voices : Some who said that Puigdemont went to Denmark to get arrested and " play the victim ", some who said that Puigdemont went to Denmark to avoid arrest and keep a chance to get his President's seat back.
Despite numerous threads before Puigdemont's trip, to him and the University that welcomed him ( University and Danish MP's words ), Puigdemont showed that he has b.lls and went ahead with the trip.
The Spanish judges decided then not to go ahead with the international warrant.
As a judge, no need to try and pretend that you " play it nice " when the only thing you want above all is to " catch the man" , wherever he is.
That is a fact : the Spanish judges didn't emit the warrant because it would have been rejected by the Danish Courts.
That is the only reason.
What has happened in Belgium is exactly the same : Madrid did emit the warrant, Belgium warns them of the lack of heavy charges in the case, so Madrid, fearing Puigdemont walking free and an international shame, did dropped the warrant straight away.
The Danish law that treats this particular subject is clear.
( Danish Criminal Code - Chap 12 , art 98 )
The judges ( and politics ! ) in Madrid prefers to treat the " Puigdemont " problem themselves, with their own laws and own interpretations , with their own political influences and without anybody in Europe putting his nose in the business...
A bit like in 1936 in Spain, in fact...
Last thing, for the ones who ask only one thing : the respect of the Law :
Codigo Penal de Espana
Artículo 498
Los que emplearen fuerza, violencia, intimidación o amenaza grave para impedir a un miembro del Congreso de los Diputados, del Senado o de una Asamblea Legislativa de Comunidad Autónoma asistir a sus reuniones, o, por los mismos medios, coartaren la libre manifestación de sus opiniones o la emisión de su voto, serán castigados con la pena de prisión de tres a cinco años.
In English :
Spanish Penal Code
Article 498
" Those who use force, violence, intimidation or serious threat to prevent a member of the Congress of Deputies, the Senate or a Legislative Assembly of the Autonomous Communidad from attending their meetings, or, by the same means, coerce the free expression of their opinions or the issuance of their vote, will be punished with a sentence of imprisonment of three to five years."
CF : the 4 political prisoners who are still in preventive jail without trial...
Oriol Junqueras ( MP ) and Quim Forn, ( MP ) 85 days ...
Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sànchez ( MP ) , 102 days...
And the 5 that are in forced exile :
Meritxell Serret ( MP ) , Antoni Comín ( MP ), Lluís Puig ( MP ) , Clara Ponsatí ( MP ) , President Carles Puigdemont ( MP )
( All 8 MP's were elected at the last december elections )0 -
The case of the trip of Puigdemont in Denmark is interesting.
Within the government , and within the unionists who support their politics , appeared two distincts voices : Some who said that Puigdemont went to Denmark to get arrested and " play the victim ", some who said that Puigdemont went to Denmark to avoid arrest and keep a chance to get his President's seat back.
Despite numerous threads before Puigdemont's trip, to him and the University that welcomed him ( University and Danish MP's words ), Puigdemont showed that he has b.lls and went ahead with the trip.
The Spanish judges decided then not to go ahead with the international warrant.
As a judge, no need to try and pretend that you " play it nice " when the only thing you want above all is to " catch the man" , wherever he is.
That is a fact : the Spanish judges didn't emit the warrant because it would have been rejected by the Danish Courts.
That is the only reason.
What has happened in Belgium is exactly the same : Madrid did emit the warrant, Belgium warns them of the lack of heavy charges in the case, so Madrid, fearing Puigdemont walking free and an international shame, did dropped the warrant straight away.
The Danish law that treats this particular subject is clear.
( Danish Criminal Code - Chap 12 , art 98 )
The judges ( and politics ! ) in Madrid prefers to treat the " Puigdemont " problem themselves, with their own laws and own interpretations , with their own political influences and without anybody in Europe putting his nose in the business...
A bit like in 1936 in Spain, in fact...
Last thing, for the ones who ask only one thing : the respect of the Law :
Codigo Penal de Espana
Artículo 498
Los que emplearen fuerza, violencia, intimidación o amenaza grave para impedir a un miembro del Congreso de los Diputados, del Senado o de una Asamblea Legislativa de Comunidad Autónoma asistir a sus reuniones, o, por los mismos medios, coartaren la libre manifestación de sus opiniones o la emisión de su voto, serán castigados con la pena de prisión de tres a cinco años.
In English :
Spanish Penal Code
Article 498
" Those who use force, violence, intimidation or serious threat to prevent a member of the Congress of Deputies, the Senate or a Legislative Assembly of the Autonomous Communidad from attending their meetings, or, by the same means, coerce the free expression of their opinions or the issuance of their vote, will be punished with a sentence of imprisonment of three to five years."
CF : the 4 political prisoners who are still in preventive jail without trial...
Oriol Junqueras ( MP ) and Quim Forn, ( MP ) 85 days ...
Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sànchez ( MP ) , 102 days...
And the 5 that are in forced exile :
Meritxell Serret ( MP ) , Antoni Comín ( MP ), Lluís Puig ( MP ) , Clara Ponsatí ( MP ) , President Carles Puigdemont ( MP )
( All 8 MP's were elected at the last december elections)
A Prosecutor applied for an arrest warrant and a Spanish judge refused it, the rest of your post is speculation and an attempt to discredit your opponents and talk about anything other than the merits of Catalan independence.
What you should be more concerned about is the level of media bias in the Catalan TV, radio and press. Any link with a .cat domain cannot be taken seriously.
"A new report by RSF cites harassment of journalists on social network and propaganda pressure from the Catalan government"
http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/13/media-operating-under-poisonous-climate-in-catalonia-says-reporters-without
“We are deeply disturbed by videos from Barcelona showing attempts to intimidate TV reporters,” Adès-Mevel said. “We urge the Catalan authorities to condemn the stigmatization of the Spanish media, the attempts to blame them for a situation that is political in origin. This blaming of the media echoes the campaigns of Donald Trump and far-right movements.”
https://rsf.org/en/news/catalan-referendum-attacks-journalists-biased-coverage
This just reinforces the level of indoctrination that has occurred in Catalonia over the past 20 years as part of their attempt to nation build.
Rule # 1: Blame another part of society for all your problems. (Where have we seen this before)0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »A Prosecutor applied for an arrest warrant and a Spanish judge refused it, the rest of your post is speculation and an attempt to discredit your opponents and talk about anything other than the merits of Catalan independence.
What you should be more concerned about is the level of media bias in the Catalan TV, radio and press. Any link with a .cat domain cannot be taken seriously.
"A new report by RSF cites harassment of journalists on social network and propaganda pressure from the Catalan government"
http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/13/media-operating-under-poisonous-climate-in-catalonia-says-reporters-without
“We are deeply disturbed by videos from Barcelona showing attempts to intimidate TV reporters,” Adès-Mevel said. “We urge the Catalan authorities to condemn the stigmatization of the Spanish media, the attempts to blame them for a situation that is political in origin. This blaming of the media echoes the campaigns of Donald Trump and far-right movements.”
https://rsf.org/en/news/catalan-referendum-attacks-journalists-biased-coverage
This just reinforces the level of indoctrination that has occurred in Catalonia over the past 20 years as part of their attempt to nation build.
Rule # 1: Blame another part of society for all your problems. (Where have we seen this before)
It is good you quoted Reporters without Borders.
Their last report about Spain says :
" Adopted in 2015, when the ruling PP ( Partido Popular ) still had absolute majority in parliament, the Gag Law’s repeal has been demanded by all opposition parties, which also accuse the government of exercising an outrageous level of control over the news program of the state radio and TV broadcaster, RTVE "
https://rsf.org/en/spain
It is good as well that you talk about the impartiality of the Catalan media, a report from today says that " TV3 i Catalunya Ràdi were the most plural media during the 21nd electoral campaign " .
" The candidate Inés Arrimadas ( unionist) is the one who had the longest time of speech in TV3, followed by Miquel Iceta, Xavier Domènech and Xavier García Albiol ( unionists ) The last ones : Carles Puigdemont, Marta Rovira and Carles Riera ( independentists ) .
https://www.scribd.com/document/370234808/Informe-del-CAC-sobre-la-campanya-del-21D#from_embed
Please note that none of the Catalan media has been condemned for " fake news " , at the difference of the Spanish one....
Please note as well that the day following the " bloody day" of the referendum , the employees of the Public Television in Spain went on strike, so ashame of the level of disinformation they were forced to broadcast ! :eek:
I won't troll the thread with more example, there is too much too say....
A last one from today , from El Razon :
( I won't comment the content, but have a look at the map : Belgium and Netherlands are not at their respective places in the map ...
Just to tell you the level !!!
https://www.larazon.es/espana/la-vuelta-im-posible-de-puigdemont-LH17543877
Anyway...
Today more pressure is growing towards the elected Parliement :
The spokesman of PP said about the new President of the Parliement Torrent : "
"He has 2 children, he knows what might happen...."
Mafia-type threat, no ?
Another prove of the collusion between justice and politics, from El Pais ( for a change ) :
In this article, El País admits that Spanish Governement illicitly put pressure on Constitutional Court members to try and stop Puigdemont becoming Catalonia's president:
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2018/01/28/actualidad/1517164077_657245.amp.html
Tomorrow is a big day, the investiture of the President of Catalonia will start at 3 .
A demonstration is planned to protect the Catalan institutions in front of the Parliament, to make sure that the electoral rights are respected ( ie : to have at the head of the country the person they have voted for... ). That is a base of the democracy, I think, and what makes the difference between a real democracy and a dictature ....
About the " freedom fighters ... "
"We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was 'legal' and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was 'illegal.'"
Dr. Martin Luther King
Letter from Birmingham Jail0 -
It is good you quoted Reporters without Borders.
Their last report about Spain says :
" Adopted in 2015, when the ruling PP ( PaPopular ) still had absolute majority in parliament, the Gag Law’s repeal has been demanded by all opposition parties, which also accuse the government of exercising an outrageous level of control over the news program of the state radio and TV broadcaster, RTVE "
https://rsf.org/en/spain
It is good as well that you talk about the impartiality of the Catalan media, a report from today says that " TV3 i Catalunya Ràdi were the most plural media during the 21nd electoral campaign " .
" The candidate Inés Arrimadas ( unionist) is the one who had the longest time of speech in TV3, followed by Miquel Iceta, Xavier Domènech and Xavier García Albiol ( unionists ) The last ones : Carles Puigdemont, Marta Rovira and Carles Riera ( independentists ) .
https://www.scribd.com/document/370234808/Informe-del-CAC-sobre-la-campanya-del-21D#from_embed
Please note that none of the Catalan media has been condemned for " fake news " , at the difference of the Spanish one....
Please note as well that the day following the " bloody day" of the referendum , the employees of the Public Television in Spain went on strike, so ashame of the level of disinformation they were forced to broadcast ! :eek:
I won't troll the thread with more example, there is too much too say....
A last one from today , from El Razon :
( I won't comment the content, but have a look at the map : Belgium and Netherlands are not at their respective places in the map ...
Just to tell you the level !!!
https://www.larazon.es/espana/la-vuelta-im-posible-de-puigdemont-LH17543877
Anyway...
Today more pressure is growing towards the elected Parliement :
The spokesman of PP said about the new President of the Parliement Torrent : "
"He has 2 children, he knows what might happen...."
Mafia-type threat, no ?
Another prove of the collusion between justice and politics, from El Pais ( for a change ) :
In this article, El País admits that Spanish Governement illicitly put pressure on Constitutional Court members to try and stop Puigdemont becoming Catalonia's president:
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2018/01/28/actualidad/1517164077_657245.amp.html
Tomorrow is a big day, the investiture of the President of Catalonia will start at 3 .
A demonstration is planned to protect the Catalan institutions in front of the Parliament, to make sure that the electoral rights are respected ( ie : to have at the head of the country the person they have voted for... ). That is a base of the democracy, I think, and what makes the difference between a real democracy and a dictature ....
About the " freedom fighters ... "
"We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was 'legal' and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was 'illegal.'"
Dr. Martin Luther King
Letter from Birmingham Jail
Actually there was numerous reports of the mainstream Catalan outlets misrepresenting information, to such an extent that reporters without borders were being harassed in addition to international reporters being screened as to what political persuasion they were before being allowed access to press and media conferences because the independence movement believes this is crucial to their cause as they know most people outside Spain are ignorant of the facts and will not see this for the man made nationalist movement that it is. There are numerous articles online about this from multiple news outlets but you can only provide articles from .cat domains which again just goes to show your confirmation bias because you avidly defend these news organisations that are clearly promoting misinformation.
Not one Catlan funded media outlet has criticised Puidgemont for plunging Catalonia into it's crisis despite the questionable decisions and poor judgement he showed which even your beloved comrads in Copenhagen asked him when they questioned him here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7aHlQXQikc
The reason they don't criticise is because the directors of these positions are appointed by the Catalan Parliament by a .... 2/3 Majority. The same 2/3 majority that is required by parliament to hold a referendum on independence but Puidgemont decided he didn't like those rules anymore so he decided to change them himself and declaring himself president of a new country and then when that didn't work he chickened out and ran off to Belgium and starting crying to the EU despite the fact that he publicly criticised the EU numerous times, and that by leaving Spain he was also leaving the EU, and the other small point that the party that kept him in Government in Catalonia ran on the basis of leaving the EU!
In other news...
Despite his trip to Copenhagen, none of the representatives from the government parties met him while he was there. https://www.thelocal.es/20180123/meeting-with-puigdemont-not-an-endorsement-danish-politician0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »Actually there was numerous reports of the mainstream Catalan outlets misrepresenting information (...)
There are numerous articles online about this from multiple news outlets (...)
Please feel free to share the " numerous " information from " multiple " sources you have.
Thanks.0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »
(...) your beloved comrads in Copenhagen asked him when they questioned him here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7aHlQXQikc
It was a debate, right ?
That mean people for, people against,and people undecided ( a bit like in a real democracy ).
Puigdemont played the game to answer to everything. Fair play to him .
The intellectual honesty would be, when you are a serious journalist, to report both sides.
That means when you post a video with a question, you post as well the answer.
That is my concept of information, maybe other people is different ?
In all Spanish media, TV and paper, ( and in your post ) , you find only this part of the conference, the 5 minutes of " against " .
Why ?
The answer is as interesting as the question , no ?
Spanish press is full of this. I mean : full ! And not only related to Catalonia.
I love Spain, I have strong personal links with this country, but the state of the TV and press is just really shameful ...And the press is getting worse and worse ... El Pais which was kind of a " reference " before can't be trusted anymore . Seriously... Their readers number is down, by the way...
( for those interested at the answer, I did post a link to see the full conference )0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »Despite his trip to Copenhagen, none of the representatives from the government parties met him while he was there. https://www.thelocal.es/20180123/meeting-with-puigdemont-not-an-endorsement-danish-politician
You would have read a news in .cat, you would have seen that President Puigdemont did met nine Danish MP's from five political parties during his visit to Copenhagen.
Pelle Dragsted , Danish MP said after the meeting : The Spanish government must have other options to discuss, the problem is that it does not want to discuss anything”
http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/new-independence-referendum-on-the-table-say-danish-mps0 -
I post again the link Tickers posted previously from Reporters without Frontiers , because I think there is lots of good information in it .
https://rsf.org/en/news/catalan-referendum-attacks-journalists-biased-coverage
We all know the violence of the referundum day, not surprising some journalists got their lots too.
What is less known is the complains coming from workers of the public television (TVE) and public radio (RNE) for the biased coverage they were forced to broadcast.
Thanks Tickers, for this link.
About the ( only ) one sentence of the report about the independentists :
" Pro-independence crowds meanwhile constantly harassed Spanish TV reporters during their live reports, making it extremely difficult for them to work. "
I remember a national Spanish TV presenter making a live show in Lleida ( Catalonia ) surrounding with people. The amount of bull.hit she was saying made it that, the crowd at the beginning silent and respectful, started little by little by saying, and then, since she didn't stop telling lies, shouting " lies- lies-lies ! " .
That's it...
When you say repeated lies, don't expect respect back, and don't complain neither because you are treated like a liar ... :rolleyes:
.
.0 -
You would have read a news in .cat, you would have seen that President Puigdemont did met nine Danish MP's from five political parties during his visit to Copenhagen.
Pelle Dragsted , Danish MP said after the meeting : The Spanish government must have other options to discuss, the problem is that it does not want to discuss anything”
http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/new-independence-referendum-on-the-table-say-danish-mps
Wrong again.
What was all that you said about "intellectual honesty" From the same link you provided here http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/new-independence-referendum-on-the-table-say-danish-mpsThe meeting with the Danish representatives -none of whom were from the country’s ruling party
These are not members of Government, he met an MP from the Faroe Islands and a few others. Nobody wants to be seen near him because because nobody supports Catalan independence. Not one country recognised Catalonia as an independent country and no other country in the EU has endorsed Catalan independence. You're flogging a dead horse.
Meanwhile Puidgemont is crying to the EU when the anti-capitalist party that kept him in government and supported his attempted coup supports Catalonia's exit from the European Union. The whole things is a farce held together by fringe political parties and the only support they can generate are of similar fringe parties in other countries that are using their the crisis for their own political means and don't care about Catalan independence. Take SF for example who want a united Ireland but support breaking up Spain?
https://www.politico.eu/article/why-catalonias-call-for-independence-is-unfounded-carles-puigdemont-speech-brussels/
Noting that you have posted has stood up to scrutiny and is full of half truths and misrepresentations. For example, you post a link from a .cat domain that shows an article about the Spanish police searching the sewers around Parliament in case Puidgemont sneaks back into the building but you leave out the fact that this is done before the assembly of every Catalan Parliament as a standard security check not just in Catalonia but also in other parts of Spain.
You then post a link to an article that Puidgemont met with a number of MP's in Denmark but you fail to point out that none of these are in Government.
You accept that the referendum on Oct 1 was not "proper" but refuse to accept that it was illegal referendum and still maintain that it is a mandate for independence even though only 43% turned out to vote, the overwhelming majority of which were in favour of independence (because why would you vote in a election which is considered to be illegal in the first place) not to mention volunteers seizing ballot boxes, sleeping in the polling stations, unofficial census, online websites all of which you shrug off but in the same breath you cry foul that your democratic rights were being infringed because you couldn't hang a yellow ribbon on a Christmas tree.
You accept the findings of the Council of State which was established under article 107 of the Spanish Constitution but refuse to accept the provisions of article 155 of the Constitution.
You suggest that the justice system is prejudiced against Catalonia yet it was a Spanish judge who refused to grant the arrest warrant for Puidgemont while he was in Denmark.
You then say that the arrest warrant wasn't granted because it would have been rejected by the Danish courts but if that was the case then why would a Spanish prosecutor apply for the warrant if he knew it was going to be rejected in the first place?
You overuse the word democracy at every opportunity but you fail to see any hypocrisy in the illegal October 1st referendum which had zero democratic processes.
You fail to see the hypocrisy when the independence parties broke their own Parliamentary rules and attempted to hold the referendum with zero regard for the people of Catalonia who want to remain part of Spain.0 -
Advertisement
-
Join Date:Posts: 22734
If people can't discuss this topic civilly we're going to start banning them from the thread.
Fair warning.0 -
Puigdemont failed to return to Catalonia today, where he would have either been elected as the regional President by the assembly, or else arrested by national police, or both.Today’s session has been postponed, but under no circumstance canceled ... another candidate will not be presented,” Torrent said during a snap news conference.0
-
Puigdemont failed to return to Catalonia today, where he would have either been elected as the regional President by the assembly, or else arrested by national police, or both.
Nobody backing down then, so the stalemate continues.
Puidgemont and independence advocates have zero leverage. This is why is he is running around Brussels trying to curry support and why his supporters are trying to portray his trip to Copenhagen as some type of diplomatic visit when he was invited to a debate in a University and met with a few politicians, none of which are members of Government.
The independence movement know that there only hope is international support because they have no leverage in Spain. This is why they have been so aggressive in their online activity even leading to reporters without borders to state in their report that:The accounts of foreign correspondents in Spain, especially those based in Barcelona, illustrate the pro-independence movement’s interest in the international media and the pressure it is putting on them because they are seen as a key element in the movement’s visibility strategy.
https://rsf.org/en/news/rsf-publishes-report-respect-media-catalonia0 -
It's interesting to see the treatment of the same event ( Puigdemont trip in Copenhagen ) in the 2 online " newspaper " previously quoted , Spain side and Catalonia side.
The Spanish one didn't report what he did ( meeting MPs) , but did report what he didn't do ( meeting the Governement ).
The Catalan one did report what he did ( meeting MPs ) , but didn't report what he didn't do ( meeting the Governement ).
Same event, two ways of reporting it...
About the unusual strong presence of police forces in Barcelona and around the Parliament building , Roger Torrent did write last Friday a letter to Spain's Interior Minister Zoido to express his concern for the "unprecedented actions of the Spanish National Police in the vicinity of the Catalan Parliament", and asking for explanations for their deployment
See letter attached.Puigdemont failed to return to Catalonia today, where he would have either been elected as the regional President by the assembly, or else arrested by national police, or both.
Nobody backing down then, so the stalemate continues.
Despite having suspended the investiture of President Puigdemont , Torrent seems to know what he wants : ( today's declaration ) :
"The Spanish state has shown one of its darkest sides with the decision by the Spanish Government to commit a legal fraud and the decision of a Constitutional Court to urgently set conditions on investiture of Puigdemont .
The Spanish Government and the Constitutional Court are trying to infringe the rights of millions of Catalans who voted on 21-D. We will not allow that. We will not accept it being said that Catalans voted badly, for voting for who they wanted. We will not accept interference with our Parliament.
Neither the Spanish vice president nor the Constitutional Court will decide who should be the president of Catalonia. It is up to the democratically elected deputies to do this. ... President Carles Puigdemont has all the legitimacy to be a candidate and has all the right.
In response to the request of president Puigdemont to guarantee his right to an investiture debate with guarantees, and to give time for the appeal presented by the president himself, the parliamentary session scheduled for today is postponed, but in no sense is it canceled "
The civil meeting of this afternoon saw people surrounding the Catalan Parliament to support what Catalonia has voted . Under the slogans " Democracy ", " we are people of peace " and "We have voted and have not been respected" , they succeeded to enter in the gardens around the Parliament, helped by the firefighters.
The four members of the CUP ( independentists ) did took place at their seats inside the Parliament, to protest against the decision to postpone the investiture.
Ah, and today is the 50's years birthday of Felipe 6 , King of Spain.
He is the third, after his father Juan Carlos 1 and , of course Franco, who is Head of the Spanish State without having being elected or even choose by the Spanish.
82 years now that it is like this...
.
.
.0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »The independence movement know that there only hope is international support because they have no leverage in Spain.
But you are making it sound as if hoping for outside moral support is a bad thing?
It has always been thus for independence movements. Usually they can only expect hostility from the ruling power.0 -
It's interesting to see the treatment of the same event ( Puigdemont trip in Copenhagen ) in the 2 online " newspaper " previously quoted , Spain side and Catalonia side.
The Spanish one didn't report what he did ( meeting MPs) , but did report what he didn't do ( meeting the Governement ).
The Catalan one did report what he did ( meeting MPs ) , but didn't report what he didn't do ( meeting the Governement ).
Same event, two ways of reporting it...
About the unusual strong presence of police forces in Barcelona and around the Parliament building , Roger Torrent did write last Friday a letter to Spain's Interior Minister Zoido to express his concern for the "unprecedented actions of the Spanish National Police in the vicinity of the Catalan Parliament", and asking for explanations for their deployment
See letter attached.
Despite having suspended the investiture of President Puigdemont , Torrent seems to know what he wants : ( today's declaration ) :
"The Spanish state has shown one of its darkest sides with the decision by the Spanish Government to commit a legal fraud and the decision of a Constitutional Court to urgently set conditions on investiture of Puigdemont .
The Spanish Government and the Constitutional Court are trying to infringe the rights of millions of Catalans who voted on 21-D. We will not allow that. We will not accept it being said that Catalans voted badly, for voting for who they wanted. We will not accept interference with our Parliament.
Neither the Spanish vice president nor the Constitutional Court will decide who should be the president of Catalonia. It is up to the democratically elected deputies to do this. ... President Carles Puigdemont has all the legitimacy to be a candidate and has all the right.
In response to the request of president Puigdemont to guarantee his right to an investiture debate with guarantees, and to give time for the appeal presented by the president himself, the parliamentary session scheduled for today is postponed, but in no sense is it canceled "
The civil meeting of this afternoon saw people surrounding the Catalan Parliament to support what Catalonia has voted . Under the slogans " Democracy ", " we are people of peace " and "We have voted and have not been respected" , they succeeded to enter in the gardens around the Parliament, helped by the firefighters.
The four members of the CUP ( independentists ) did took place at their seats inside the Parliament, to protest against the decision to postpone the investiture.
Ah, and today is the 50's years birthday of Felipe 6 , King of Spain.
He is the third, after his father Juan Carlos 1 and , of course Franco, who is Head of the Spanish State without having being elected or even choose by the Spanish.
82 years now that it is like this...
.
.
.
Again your arguments don't stand up to scrutiny because Carles Puidgemont wasn't elected as a head of state but was happy to declare himself the President of a country after conducting an illegal referendum which had the same voting processes that would make Robert Mugabe jealous. Did the other half of Catalonia have a choice when he decided to hold an illegal referendum to break up the country of Spain and appoint him president of this new country?
Many countries have unelected heads of state including the United Kingdom, Spain, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden and even your beloved Denmark has a monarchy. Spain is ranked of one of the only full democracies in the world, not as good as some but better than most including France, Germany, UK, Italy and most other European countries. The countries that rank the highest are the Scandinavian countries which also have monarchies as heads of state and also the same countries which Puidgemont is trying to generate support from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index Catalan citizens have voted 7 times in the last five years between National, European, Regional election etc. This "oppression" and "suppression" of democracy that we keep hearing about is a fantasy and is insulting to previous civil rights struggles that independence advocates are comparing themselves to.
It's also interesting that the same Catalan MP's who broke their own Parliamentary rules are the same people who are now complaining over not being able to implement Parliamentary procedure to appoint a new president, leaving aside the fact that it was the Catalan parliament that decided to postpone the investiture. The independence movement seems oblivious to their own double standards. They invoke the rules of law and parliamentary procedures when it suits them but have no problem stepping outside of those rules when it generates the result that suits them.
This whole independence movement reminds me of a snake eating it's own tail. They cannot be the oppressor and the oppressed at the same time.0 -
They have little or no support outside Catalonia, and therefore no leverage.
But you are making it sound as if hoping for outside moral support is a bad thing?
It has always been thus for independence movements. Usually they can only expect hostility from the ruling power.
and you make it sound as if this is the great civil rights struggle of our time. They have no leverage inside or outside Spain, the reason is because most people who actually know what democracy is understand that you don't hold illegal referendums and try to break up sovereign countries by stepping outside the rule of law when the means to Catalonian independence already exists within the Spanish constitution. They can't even get the required majorities within their own Parliament or their own population. The largest political party in Catalonia is a Pro Spanish unity party.0 -
Someone please find a link in English to the news about the text messages exchanged between Puigdemont and former conseller Toni Comín saying how the Spanish government has triumphed and Puigdemont has been "a escape goat"
Saint Puigdemont Martyr
They'll probably say now that this is all about espionage0 -
Someone please find a link in English to the news about the text messages exchanged between Puigdemont and former conseller Toni Comín saying how the Spanish government has triumphed and Puigdemont has been "a escape goat"
Saint Puigdemont Martyr
They'll probably say now that this is all about espionage
I heard about this story alright. I haven't found a link in English neither, but I don't have any doubt that it will go out in th Spanish papers, it's a story at the level of the other news they usually write...
I won't translate the content of the exchange for two reasons :
- It's a private conversation, and since everybody has the right to privacy, I don't find it very " clean " to make this public. Spanish press don't have this deontology, apparently... Sad !!!
- Toni Comin did lodge a justice complain for " disclosure of private content " towards the TV show .
( I don't know the position of boards,ie about this kind of stuff, but Barna77 , feel free to go ahead if you feel like . I won't go this route myself ...)
The ( public ) answer of Puigdemont has been the following :
" I am a journalist and I have always understood that there are limits, such as privacy, which should never be violated. I am human and there are times that I am also in doubts . I am also the President and I will not overcome myself or I will not go back, by respect of the commitment of the citizens and the country. We continue ! "
Fair play to him for two reasons :
- he didn't deny the messages ( he could easily have ! )
- he didn't lodge any judicial complain ( he could have as well, being the first victim of this leak )0 -
Advertisement
-
Advertisement