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Catalan independence referendum, 2017
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I heard about this story alright. I haven't found a link in English neither, but I don't have any doubt that it will go out in th Spanish papers, it's a story at the level of the other news they usually write...
I won't translate the content of the exchange for two reasons :
- It's a private conversation, and since everybody has the right to privacy, I don't find it very " clean " to make this public. Spanish press don't have this deontology, apparently... Sad !!!
- Toni Comin did lodge a justice complain for " disclosure of private content " towards the TV show .
( I don't know the position of boards,ie about this kind of stuff, but Barna77 , feel free to go ahead if you feel like . I won't go this route myself ...
)
The ( public ) answer of Puigdemont has been the following :
" I am a journalist and I have always understood that there are limits, such as privacy, which should never be violated. I am human and there are times that I am also in doubts . I am also the President and I will not overcome myself or I will not go back, by respect of the commitment of the citizens and the country. We continue ! "
Fair play to him for two reasons :
- he didn't deny the messages ( he could easily have ! )
- he didn't lodge any judicial complain ( he could have as well, being the first victim of this leak )
The information is already in the public domain by a Catalan publication so again your suggestions as to Spanish media bias don't stand up to scrutiny. Not sure why you are so virtuous, you didn't seem so conflicted when you were disclosing the details of a Spanish judge who had their CV and level of English publicly doxed online. Was that person not entitled to the same privacy you now want everyone to observe?
Here is the link https://www.elnacional.cat/ca/politica/puigdemont-suposat-missatge-comin-sacrificat-ana-rosa-quintana_234312_102.html and the messages here.- Tornem a viure els últims dies de la Catalunya republicana...
- El pla Moncloa triomfa. Només espero que sigui veritat que gràcies a això puguin sortir de la presó tots. Perquè si no, el ridícul històric és històric...
- Suposo que tens clar que això s'ha acabat. Els nostres ens han sacrificat, almenys a mi. Vosaltres sereu consellers (espero i desitjo) però jo ja estic sacrificat tal com suggeria Tardà.
- No sé el que em queda de vida (espero que molta!), però la dedicaré a posar en ordre aquests dos anys i a protegir la meva reputació. M'han fet molt de mal, amb calúmnies, rumors, mentides, que he aguantat per un objectiu comú. Això ara ha caducat i em tocarà dedicar la meva vida a la defensa pròpia.
Anyone interested can copy and paste into Google translate to give you a general idea of the messages but what he's saying is that "Monclao" which is like the Spanish White House has won. But what's embarrassing for Puidgemont is that from the way he is texting he is portraying himself like Jesus who has just been betrayed by Judas. Just goes to show how deluded he is. He's like the David Koresh of politics.
I really wish more people outside of Spain were more familiar with the nuances and the FACTS about this independence movement. The reason why @bertie_56 won't post the details of the message here is because independence advocates have been desperate to try and influence international opinion regarding the situation in Catalonia. They have a bunch of volunteers whose job is to post on online forums and twitter in an attempt to spin international opinion towards their version of events. It really is concerning they way they are attempting to nation build. Indoctrinating in schools, control over media organisations, blaming Madrid for all of the problems in Catalonia with the mantra "Madrid is robbing you" they actually use this term over and over, and they way Puidgemont refers to himself as a modern day Jesus.
It's very frustrating for people in Spain who are familiar with the actual situation to have to try and dispel this notion that these are an oppressed minority who are having their rights trampled when it has been the exact opposite! For years up until this point Madrid was walking on egg shells around Catalonia for fear of being called a fascists. Catalonia is the most autonomous region in the democratic world whose citizens have voted 7 times in the last 5 years!0 -
" public domain " is a legal term that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
The Spanish judge CV hasn't been disclosed, it is freely available on the European Court of Human Rights website ( policy of transparency ) . It is legal to post details of it.
The content of the texts messages is private, they have been stolen without the consent of the sender, nor the receiver . It is illegal to post details of it.
Legal / illegal : that is the difference...
By the way, the second Spanish judge , now choosen ( the one from the Opus Dei ) , had lied on her CV too. ( CV available legally on line too ... )Celia Late Troop wrote: »Did the other half of Catalonia have a choice when he decided to hold an illegal referendum to break up the country of Spain and appoint him president of this new country?
Yes. Twice. Regional elections 2010 and 2015 , where independists parts made a clear caimpaing for a referundum, and for declaring independence if the referundum is yes.
In both elections, the independentits won ( majority ).
So, yes, people had the choice.
People had the choice too in the referundum ( legal according to Catalan laws )
Unionists did boycott it : their fault !Celia Late Troop wrote: »Catalonia is the most autonomous region in the democratic world whose citizens have voted 7 times in the last 5 years!
How many times they had their voices respected ???
Statute of Autonomy : rejected
Elections 2015 : out, with MPs in jail
Elections 2017 : results not respected...
Here is a list of some laws that have been approved at a majority by the Parliament of Catalonia and rejected by Spain :
People outside Spain get information and are now slowly stopping at buying the lies ...
Old numbers, not up to date .Celia Late Troop wrote: »
The new report is here :
https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index
Spain risks being downgraded from a “full democracy” to a “flawed” one over its handling of Catalonia’s secession crisis, a research group that compiles an influential annual democracy ranking warned this morning.The country’s score dropped from 8.30 to 8.08 in the Economist Intelligence Unit’s (EIU) 2017 Democracy Index due to “its attempt to stop by force Catalonia’s illegal referendum on independence on October 1 and its repressive treatment of pro-independence politicians.”
Spain is at 0.8 point to be a " flawed " democracy . 2018 starts good in the way to get it...
https://www.justreadonline.com/2018/01/31/spain-risks-downgrade-to-flawed-democracy-over-catalonia/0 -
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" public domain " is a legal term that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
The Spanish judge CV hasn't been disclosed, it is freely available on the European Court of Human Rights website ( policy of transparency ) . It is legal to post details of it.
The content of the texts messages is private, they have been stolen without the consent of the sender, nor the receiver . It is illegal to post details of it.
Legal / illegal : that is the difference...
By the way, the second Spanish judge , now choosen ( the one from the Opus Dei ) , had lied on her CV too. ( CV available legally on line too ... )
You're suddenly very enthusiastic to uphold the rule of law and very particular over what is legal and illegal. Maybe you could apply this to the "referendum" on October 1st. Again you seem oblivious to the double standards.Yes. Twice. Regional elections 2010 and 2015 , where independists parts made a clear caimpaing for a referundum, and for declaring independence if the referundum is yes.
In both elections, the independentits won ( majority ).
So, yes, people had the choice.
People had the choice too in the referundum ( legal according to Catalan laws )
Unionists did boycott it : their fault !
I'm sorry but democracy, your favourite word, doesn't work that way and these were not referendums on independence. Unionists didn't vote because they knew that it was a pointless exercise because it was not legally binding and Madrid only allowed the referendum to proceed to appease indepes and after some late concessions by Catalonia acknowledging that this would not be legally binding. You know this but choose yet again to misrepresent.How many times they had their voices respected ???
Statute of Autonomy : rejected
Elections 2015 : out, with MPs in jail
Elections 2017 : results not respected...
Here is a list of some laws that have been approved at a majority by the Parliament of Catalonia and rejected by Spain :
People outside Spain get information and are now slowly stopping at buying the lies ...
If the Generalitat passes legislation that contradicts the Constitution then it's going to be rejected. From the list you posted, 17 of those pieces of legislation are since 2015 and were passed by the indepes knowing that they contradicted the constitution and would be rejected so that the indepes could use this as ammunition to say that they are being oppressed. Most rational people know that your description of Spain, a Western European Democracy, as a type of fascist dictatorship stifling the rights of Catalan citizens and references to Franco is nonsense. Nobody sees this picture that you are painting which is why not one country has supported Catalan independence.Old numbers, not up to date .
The new report is here :
https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index
Spain risks being downgraded from a “full democracy” to a “flawed” one over its handling of Catalonia’s secession crisis, a research group that compiles an influential annual democracy ranking warned this morning.The country’s score dropped from 8.30 to 8.08 in the Economist Intelligence Unit’s (EIU) 2017 Democracy Index due to “its attempt to stop by force Catalonia’s illegal referendum on independence on October 1 and its repressive treatment of pro-independence politicians.”
Spain is at 0.8 point to be a " flawed " democracy . 2018 starts good in the way to get it...
https://www.justreadonline.com/2018/01/31/spain-risks-downgrade-to-flawed-democracy-over-catalonia/
So you accept that Spain is still considered a full democracy of which there are only twenty in the world, but then in the same breath you suggest that your rights are being oppressed. Almost every one of your statements is either a double standard or contradicts a statement that you previously made.0 -
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Seeing from the Spanish side, surely... It's their way of doing , using the Constitutional Court for politics .Celia Late Troop wrote: »I think the only people who confused are independence supporters. It's perfectly clear that the referendum on Oct 1st and subsequent UDI were illegal.
It is what happens now since they couldn't get what they wanted with the votes the 21D ....:rolleyes:
By the way, saying " UDI illegal " is a pleonasm, seeing from SpainCelia Late Troop wrote: »17 pieces of legislation in 2 years. What parliament has ever gone through that much legislation in that short period of time. Those bills were drafted so quickly and shoddy because the Generalitiat knew there wasn't a chance it wouldn't pass the constitution.
Could you share here your information ( facts )you have about the content of these bills and why are they shoddy ? ( facts ).
Thank you.
I think you misunderstood the signification of the legal term " preemptive ".Celia Late Troop wrote: »b Nothing preemptive or arbitrary about it.
You mean " threats" , am I correct ? ( that is the definition given anyway...)Celia Late Troop wrote: »They were told in advance what would happen and what the charges would if they pressed ahead with making a UDI.
Like the PP Spokesperson Pablo Casado who did say publicly about Roger Torrent ( President Parliament ) : "He has 2 children, he knows what might happen...." if he allows President Puigdemont to be sworn ?
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Celia Late Troop wrote: »The independence movement appear to be engaged in a war of words and images as opposed to engaging in the merits of their independence. .
Engaging in the merits of their independence : I think that has been done for the last years in Catalonia.
The political parties there had convinced enough people of the merits of the independence for being now for the second time in majority at their own Parliament.Celia Late Troop wrote: »They don't want to address the uncomfortable objectionable facts including the legitimacy of the referendum, their role and that of Puidgemont in this crisis and that they share a large portion of the blame for stepping outside the rule of law and the constitution which already provides the means for Catalan independence.
Newspapers, Internet, radios and TVs in Catalonia are talking about all this everyday for the last 6 months now !Celia Late Troop wrote: »Many opponents to independence accept that the response from Government on Oct 1st was an ill judged use of force but that was an error in tactics rather than principle.
Can you please send proves of that ?
Thanks.Celia Late Troop wrote: »However, the narrative from Catalonia since has been to portray themselves as victims and to double down and refuse to accept any responsibility for their role in this crisis and to engage in an online war of words and images to label their opponents as fascists and oppressors in an attempt to de-legitimatise their opponents rather than address the facts.
Facts :
Copy of the first appeal of the Spanish Suprem Court for the release of the political prisonner Oriol Junqueras , now in preventive jail for 93 days ( release denied )
https://www.ara.cat/2018/01/05/auto_desestima_apelacion_Junqueras.pdf?hash=1d979dcd0af490d8e3f5d54736eae3f4ec04d8c1
“It's true that there is no evidence that the defendant has personally committed any specific violent acts. There is also no evidence that he gave direct orders to commit violence.”
Copy of the second appeal of the Spanish Suprem Court ( release denied )
https://cdn27.hiberus.com/uploads/documentos/2018/02/02/_autodeniegalibertadforn_4e755e2e.pdf
" El investigado, en expresión de su legítima libertad ideológica, 1 mantiene lógicamente su ideario soberanista, lo que, aún siendo constitucionalmente válido, no supone que deba renunciarse a evaluar que el convencimiento que mantiene posibilita una reiteración del delito que resultaría absurda en quien profese la ideología contraria"
" ( Oriol Junqueras ) , in expression of his legitimate ideological freedom, 1 logically maintains his sovereignty ideology, which, while being constitutionally valid, does not mean that he should reject evaluating that the conviction he maintains makes possible a repetition of the crime that would be absurd in the person who professes the contrary ideology.
Conclusion of that : This democratically re-elected MP is in preventive jail without trial for the last 3 months , without having being violent or promoting violence, and kept in jail for ideologic resons .
( both words of the Suprem Court of Spain, not mine...)
Lately, he got 15 days forbidden of " yard " ( out of the cell ) , to have pass a 5 min phone call to a friend ( allowed ) , which was lately used by a radio .
Important to note that during this time, he was in electoral campaign ...
Celia Late Troop wrote: »the constitution which already provides the means for Catalan independence.
Are you saying that El Pais is wrong ?
No constitutional text endorses self-determination ( not a .cat link )
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/09/16/actualidad/1505570870_834567.htmlCelia Late Troop wrote: »Just look at the response from @bertie_56 on this thread which has just been to data dump as many anti Madrid/PP/Guardia Civil articles he can find from .cat websites without addressing the numerous contradictions in his statements throughout this thread. most rational people don't accept the version of events that indepes are trying to portray.
No need to go personal .
I post links coming from Catalonia,yes. Is that not the subject of the thread ? Are the Catalan people not the best placed to talk about their country ???
I post as well from other media .
The problem is to get articles in English, they are few in Spain, a lot in Catalonia .
As proved before, they are more reliable and more objective than the Spanish press.
Not my fault.
So far, not one of my links has been proven wrong.Not one.
They call be call "dump" if wanted , but they are not " opinion " ones, but factual ones, saying facts that is always double-checks.
Yes, I read Spanish press, but I always doubt of their objectivity , specially when it is about Catalonia.
Just hearing Rajoy talking about the Spanish press few days ago, and you get the whole picture :
" "Quiero reconocer con agradecimiento la actitud de la mayoría de medios de comunicación en defensa de la unidad nacional"
"I want to acknowledge with appreciation the attitude of most media in defense of national unity"
That says everything...
Talking about fake news, from the Guardian ( not a .cat link )
Between Bashar al-Assad and the Chinese State media, we found Alfonso Dastis, Spanish foreign minister .
Classy !
( I failed to see the same about Catalan politicians... :rolleyes:)
How Trump's 'fake news' gave authoritarian leaders a new weapon
(...) But by co-opting “fake news” to describe any form of negative media coverage, Trump has helped countries from Venezuela to Syria to Myanmar explain away atrocities and human rights abuses. Here are some examples.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/25/how-trumps-fake-news-gave-authoritarian-leaders-a-new-weapon
Make me think of this one :
" However, many of the images we've seen have been proven to be fake, not all of them but many of them "
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105106207&postcount=916
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They have convinced a sizeable minority but not enough for independence.Engaging in the merits of their independence : I think that has been done for the last years in Catalonia.
The political parties there had convinced enough people of the merits of the independence for being now for the second time in majority at their own Parliament.
You’re posts are too long, very difficult to undertsnad and full of contradictions. This is not a game of Monopoly, getting yourself elected as a member of parliament is not a “get out of jail card”.Facts :
Copy of the first appeal of the Spanish Suprem Court for the release of the political prisonner Oriol Junqueras , now in preventive jail for 93 days ( release denied )
https://www.ara.cat/2018/01/05/auto_desestima_apelacion_Junqueras.pdf?hash=1d979dcd0af490d8e3f5d54736eae3f4ec04d8c1
“It's true that there is no evidence that the defendant has personally committed any specific violent acts. There is also no evidence that he gave direct orders to commit violence.”
Copy of the second appeal of the Spanish Suprem Court ( release denied )
https://cdn27.hiberus.com/uploads/documentos/2018/02/02/_autodeniegalibertadforn_4e755e2e.pdf
" El investigado, en expresión de su legítima libertad ideológica, 1 mantiene lógicamente su ideario soberanista, lo que, aún siendo constitucionalmente válido, no supone que deba renunciarse a evaluar que el convencimiento que mantiene posibilita una reiteración del delito que resultaría absurda en quien profese la ideología contraria"
" ( Oriol Junqueras ) , in expression of his legitimate ideological freedom, 1 logically maintains his sovereignty ideology, which, while being constitutionally valid, does not mean that he should reject evaluating that the conviction he maintains makes possible a repetition of the crime that would be absurd in the person who professes the contrary ideology.
Conclusion of that : This democratically re-elected MP is in preventive jail without trial for the last 3 months , without having being violent or promoting violence, and kept in jail for ideologic resons .
( both words of the Suprem Court of Spain, not mine...)
Lately, he got 15 days forbidden of " yard " ( out of the cell ) , to have pass a 5 min phone call to a friend ( allowed ) , which was lately used by a radio .
Important to note that during this time, he was in electoral campaign ...
Are you saying El Pais is correct? Another one of your contradictions. You’ve been posting for the last number of pages that El Pais cannot be trusted as a news source and now you’re asking me if I think El Pais is wrong???Are you saying that El Pais is wrong ?
No constitutional text endorses self-determination ( not a .cat link )
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/09/16/actualidad/1505570870_834567.html
You were the one who gave us the link to Joan Vintró, Professor of Constitutional Law. Institute of Public Law. University of Barcelona where he writes in his paperThat said, and without saying that everything is wrong in this article, is El Pais a paper someone could trust to get proper information about Catalonia ?
I let people judging by themselves:
"Two full pages of lies ..."
The 12 of November 17 , "El País" published on the cover this headline: "One week watching only TV3 " ( Catalan Public television ) . Inside, on two full pages, an extensive critical article about TV3 and its news.
Few weeks later, "El País" is condemned to publish a correction for a critical article on TV3 , both in their online page and the paper ... Two full pages of correction...
A judge from Barcelona considers that the newspaper used inaccurate data for an article . This, according to TV3, damaged the image of the Catalan public television.
Link of the article is here ( in Catalan )
http://www.ccma.cat/premsa/la-justicia-condemna-el-pais-a-publicar-la-rectificacio-que-li-exigeix-tv3-per-larticle-una-semana-en-la-burbuja-de-tv3/nota-de-premsa/2830997/
That is just one of a multiple example regarding El Pais - ABC - La Razon . And I don't talk about OK Diario !!!
http://idpbarcelona.net/docs/blog/legality_referendum.pdfAs explained above, it is clear that the call for a referendum on the collective future of Catalonia linked to the beginning of a constitutional amendment is possible within the constitutional framework and the law.
So which version of events do you accept, the article you gave us by El Pais who you said cannot be trusted as an unbiased source, or do you accept what Joan Vintró has said in the link that you provided?0 -
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https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106034235&postcount=1727Celia Late Troop wrote: »They have convinced a sizeable minority but not enough for independence.Celia Late Troop wrote: »You’re posts are too long, very difficult to undertsnad and full of contradictions. This is not a game of Monopoly, getting yourself elected as a member of parliament is not a “get out of jail card”.
Seing " contradictions" here seems to be linked with the difficulties to understand the point.
By the way, isn't " contradiction" a new catch-all term coming from here ?:rolleyes:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106030451&postcount=1724
Anyway , to make it more simple then :
Oriol Junqueras, now in preventive jail for 95 days, was MP before being in jail , and has been reelected MP while being in jail.
His release has been asked twice.
In the two papers denying the release , it was written :
- the MP hasn't been violent, or asked people to be violent.
- The MP stays in jail because he didn't renounced his ideology.
Quim Forn is in the same situation, except that in the mean time, he did renounce to his MP seat.
He still stay in preventive jail too , for the same reasons.
(This is the resume , more precisions were given in the previous post )Celia Late Troop wrote: »Are you saying El Pais is correct? Another one of your contradictions. You’ve been posting for the last number of pages that El Pais cannot be trusted as a news source and now you’re asking me if I think El Pais is wrong???
You failed to see here the irony of my question. Doesn't matter...Celia Late Troop wrote: »You were the one who gave us the link to Joan Vintró, Professor of Constitutional Law. Institute of Public Law. University of Barcelona where he writes in his paper
http://idpbarcelona.net/docs/blog/legality_referendum.pdf
So which version of events do you accept, the article you gave us by El Pais who you said cannot be trusted as an unbiased source, or do you accept what Joan Vintró has said in the link that you provided?
Since I have to precise it ! : Joan Vintró 0 -
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Seing " contradictions" here seems to be linked with the difficulties to understand the point.
By the way, isn't " contradiction" a new catch-all term coming from here ?:rolleyes:
[/url]https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106030451&postcount=1724
The contradictions are coming from your own words.Anyway , to make it more simple then :
Oriol Junqueras, now in preventive jail for 95 days, was MP before being in jail , and has been reelected MP while being in jail.
His release has been asked twice.
In the two papers denying the release , it was written :
- the MP hasn't been violent, or asked people to be violent.
- The MP stays in jail because he didn't renounced his ideology.
Quim Forn is in the same situation, except that in the mean time, he did renounce to his MP seat.
He still stay in preventive jail too , for the same reasons.Catalan government “designed an army,” https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/02/02/inenglish/1517562826_520341.html
Yes, very peaceful.You failed to see here the irony of my question. Doesn't matter...
Since I have to precise it ! : Joan Vintró
So then you agree that the means to Catalan independence is already contained within the Spanish constitution?0 -
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Celia Late Troop wrote: »Yes, very peaceful.
As said already, with link provided, the words of " non-violent " are not mine, but the ones of the Spanish Suprem Court :
“It's true that there is no evidence that the defendant has personally committed any specific violent acts. There is also no evidence that he gave direct orders to commit violence.”
About the El Pais article :
I don't know if this story of army is true or not ( no proves so far ), but if it is true , few reflexions :
- they are creating a new country, nothing abnormal to plan for its defense . I see already some newspapers article title if they wouldn't have planned it :
" Catalonia can't even defend themselves "...
- An army itself is not a problem. The problem is always what is the use of it.
Good to see that one of the "arguments" of the unionists is debunked ( if needed ! ) :
"The report notes that Catalan officials were also trying to find ways to remain a part of the European Union "
We all knew that for long time now, so thanks for this link that shows it...Celia Late Troop wrote: »So then you agree that the means to Catalan independence is already contained within the Spanish constitution?
No need to twist the things...
The Spanish Constitution has to be changed , that's all.0 -
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