Catalan independence referendum, 2017

bertie 56

marienbad wrote: »

For your info , I do read all posts and I never rush .

That is no answer , the tenor of your posts on this issue is that the publication drew it upon themselves .

All the rest is just your usual waffle and swamping the thread with links that have made the whole thing virtually unreadable .

I'm done with you .

Since you seem to have missed once again my answer ( "penultimate line" means " the one before last line " ), here it is :

Tickers question : SO you think it's ok to attack news organisations that don't bend to the will on the separatists?
My answer : To answer to the question before any twisted thoughts arrives : no.

It can't be clearer than that !

So no need really to bark , first, to get an answer to a question, for then after barking again because the answer doesn't suits.
If you only want answers that suits your taste , don't ask questions on the Politics forum.
Plain and simple.

About my posts, I acknowledge that they can be difficult to read sometimes.
But the subject is complicated, so the explanations can't be simple.

If it's too much for you , try that instead :
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=100891549

Have a nice day.

bertie 56

International exposure seems to be a possible solution to counteract the judicial hunt of the Catalan politics.
Strangely enough, things seems to move a bit fast in Spain since the political prisoners started a movement with international lawyers a couple of days ago ...

Is Spain fearing something there ?


From La Vanguardia:

" The Constitutional Court has admitted the appeal for amparo requested by the presidents of the associations ANC and Omnium, Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart , for possible infringement of fundamental rights due to their entry into prison for a crime of sedition. "

Original link here :
http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20180205/44566820505/tribunal-constitucional-recurso-amparo-jordi-sanchez-jordi-cuixart.html?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

In English ( auto):
https://translate.google.ie/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lavanguardia.com%2Fpolitica%2F20180205%2F44566820505%2Ftribunal-constitucional-recurso-amparo-jordi-sanchez-jordi-cuixart.html%3Futm_source%3DTwitter%26utm_medium%3DSocial&edit-text=&act=url

" recurso de amparo " is not a familiar law procedure around here.
See definition here :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurso_de_amparo

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v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Simple comparison .
" justify" ? see 4)

Twisting again...

from " a few Mossos on holidays " of the article, you conclude : "The Mossos " :P.
From "Brussels" in the article , you conclude " all around Belgium " .

Could be time to stop these gross falsifications , no ?

Other example of their work :
Escorting Arrimadas ( C's , unionists ) out of the Parliement few days ago :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_syiCsctGE
And I don't think the Mossos that day did all vote for her ,or did they ?:rolleyes:

I still have to see some stories where the Mossos hasn't defend someone from the unionists side, based on the fact that he was from the unionist side.

That is the problem : seeing the Catalan problem with Irish glasses

I think the problem is that you are only looking at the issue from an independence perspective.

Escorting Arrimadas in an official capacity as they would with any member of Parliament in Catalonia while working as elected representative is perfectly acceptable.

The Mossos are being investigated for shredding evidence relating to the misappropriation of funds to separatists while senior officers are in Belgium in an unofficial capacity on "holidays" acting as body guards to Carles Puidgemont, and you don't see any problem with this. The former commissioner of the Mossos is also under investigation.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

About my posts, I acknowledge that they can be difficult to read sometimes.
But the subject is complicated, so the explanations can't be simple.

The reason they are difficult to read is not the subject but the way you copy and paste irrelevant articles about unreleased prisoners and the charges they are being held on rather than talking about the reasons why Catalonia should be an independent country.

After all your posts, I still don't know why you believe that Catalonia should be an independent country. Why don't you outline your reasons in favour of independence rather than posting random links from all over the internet?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Escorting Arrimadas in an official capacity as they would with any member of Parliament in Catalonia while working as elected representative is perfectly acceptable.

So this is OK for you. Good . ( for me too, by the way, I find it normal ! )
Nice to see that you don't consider the Mossos as a " impartial police force " , who are " so open about their political affiliations " anymore.
I note your u-turn on that subject.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The Mossos are being investigated for shredding evidence relating to the misappropriation of funds to separatists while senior officers are in Belgium in an unofficial capacity on "holidays" acting as body guards to Carles Puidgemont, and you don't see any problem with this. The former commissioner of the Mossos is also under investigation.

I won't comment on pseudo-information coming from a paper that have been condemned unequivocally for " fake news ".

If you want to talk seriously about that , find us a proper link with proper facts ( how many Mossos ? Where ? When ? What are the " evidences " , etc, etc...) .
In Eng, Spa, Cat, whatever suits.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The reason they are difficult to read is not the subject but the way you copy and paste irrelevant articles about unreleased prisoners and the charges they are being held on rather than talking about the reasons why Catalonia should be an independent country.

After all your posts, I still don't know why you believe that Catalonia should be an independent country. Why don't you outline your reasons in favour of independence rather than posting random links from all over the internet?

You find that the political prisoners are an irrelevant subject ???

I think they are a key to understand the neo-fascist ways Spain is using to deal with the Catalan democratic rights !

I understand it is something embarrassing for you who defend the monarchist-unionist side .
Too late, the news is out now, and since there is a bit of international legal move around them, things seems to accelerate Spanish side.

The posts with links are not " opinion ones " , they bring information in the debate.
Surely not information at your taste, but that is the game...

Something else : if you find some posts or even the full thread " irrelevant ", no need to read them or worse, reply to them ....

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" talking about the reasons why Catalonia should be an independent country"

I like your sense of humor

4 months ago, 37 pages and 550 posts ago :

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105341244&postcount=1221



Time to move on, no ?

( without necessarily reverting to your second theme neither : " Alibaba , 2/3 , illegal-illegal-illegal " ) :rolleyes:

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

So this is OK for you. Good . ( for me too, by the way, I find it normal ! )
Nice to see that you don't consider the Mossos as a " impartial police force " , who are " so open about their political affiliations " anymore.
I note your u-turn on that subject.

I won't comment on pseudo-information coming from a paper that have been condemned unequivocally for " fake news ".

If you want to talk seriously about that , find us a proper link with proper facts ( how many Mossos ? Where ? When ? What are the " evidences " , etc, etc...) .
In Eng, Spa, Cat, whatever suits.

It's very serious, Independence leaders appear to be in collusion with the Mossos by shredding evidence, refusing to carry out judicial orders and providing personal security guards to Carles Puidgemenont while he is in Belgium.

Why is it that every news organisation that criticises independence you consider to be fake news and you take everything that pro independence websites tell you at face value and as "bringing information to the debate"? For example, you posted a number of articles from a .cat news website that said Spanish police were searching the sewers for Carles Puidgemont. When it was pointed out to you that this is done before every investiture not just in Barcelona but in other parts of Spain and also in other countries, you just ignored the facts and circled back to some other silly story and started to copy and paste, and post links to any story you can find that is critical of Spain.

You also posted an article from a French website that said Spanish police had crossed the border into Spain and were searching the cars of French citizens looking for Puidgemont in the boot of their cars. By any measure this would be considered a major diplomatic incident but no corroboration or evidence, just links and images. As any rational person would understand, Puidgemont is a very high profile person, people reading these posts are intelligent enough to know that he is not going to sneak back into Spain in the boot of a car or through the sewer system these are totally ridiculous stories that you are posting in an attempt to deflect away from giving us your reasons as to why Catalonia should be independent.

There are numerous accounts of bias in TV3 which is a state funded organisation way before this crisis started. El Pais is a private organisation and publicly stated that they are in favour of the Constitution and against independence, it's no secret what their position is. TV3 are state funded and pretend to be independent but in reality are just a propaganda machine for Puidgemeont and his supporters because all the senior executives in TV3 have been promoted and handpicked by independence politicians i return for political favours which is evident in their reportage.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

I like your sense of humor

4 months ago, 37 pages and 550 posts ago :

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105341244&postcount=1221



Time to move on, no ?

( without necessarily reverting to your second theme neither : " Alibaba , 2/3 , illegal-illegal-illegal " ) :rolleyes:

But you still haven't given us the reasons why Catalonia should be independent, you just sling mud and use labels like neo fascist.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

For example, you posted (...) that said Spanish police were searching the sewers for Carles Puidgemont. When it was pointed out to you that this is done before every investiture not just in Barcelona but in other parts of Spain and also in other countries, you just ignored the facts and circled back to some other silly story and (...)

Read the posts and stop the lies :

Second paragraph.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105998208&postcount=1705

with the letter of Torrent attached.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You also posted an article from a French website that said Spanish police had crossed the border into Spain and were searching the cars of French citizens looking for Puidgemont in the boot of their cars. By any measure this would be considered a major diplomatic incident but no corroboration or evidence, just links and images.

Read the French press and stop the lies :

https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/faits-divers-justice/polemique-quand-la-police-espagnole-fouille-des-voitures-en-territoire-francais-1517388550

https://www.lasemaineduroussillon.com/2018/01/31/espagne-guardia-civil-controlent-vehicules-territoire-francais/

http://www.leparisien.fr/international/les-douaniers-espagnols-traquent-puigdemont-en-france-03-02-2018-7538733.php

http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2018/01/31/des-fouilles-conduites-en-france-par-la-police-espagnole-pour-retrouver-puigdemont_a_23349026/

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

There are numerous accounts of bias in TV3 (...)

Impossibility of providing any links of this, despite asking.
So stop the lies.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Read the posts and stop the lies :

Second paragraph.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105998208&postcount=1705

with the letter of Torrent attached.

I read the second paragraph of what you posted and this is what it says:

bertie 56 wrote: »

Ah, and today is the 50's years birthday of Felipe 6 , King of Spain.
He is the third, after his father Juan Carlos 1 and , of course Franco, who is Head of the Spanish State without having being elected or even choose by the Spanish.
82 years now that it is like this...

This is just more waffle and nonsense with you posting about King Felipe of Spain, Franco and just rambling in general. Your posts just don't make any sense either logically or grammatically.

It was then pointed out to you that many countries have unelected heads of state including the Scandinavian ones which the separatists are trying to emulate and you ignored that fact and moved onto another random story.

bertie 56 wrote: »

with the letter of Torrent attached.

More rambling. Roger Torrent is a politician and speaker of the house, just because he decides to write a random letter to further his own political cause means absolutely nothing, he only represents one side of the debate. It is just a silly letter and nothing else. If Roger Torrent wrote a letter asking you to send him your wages every month would you do it? He is a nobody, his opinion is just another of the pro independence cult that believe everything they are spoon fed about Spain.

bertie 56 wrote: »

Read the French press and stop the lies :

https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/faits-divers-justice/polemique-quand-la-police-espagnole-fouille-des-voitures-en-territoire-francais-1517388550

https://www.lasemaineduroussillon.com/2018/01/31/espagne-guardia-civil-controlent-vehicules-territoire-francais/
a
http://www.leparisien.fr/international/les-douaniers-espagnols-traquent-puigdemont-en-france-03-02-2018-7538733.php

http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2018/01/31/des-fouilles-conduites-en-france-par-la-police-espagnole-pour-retrouver-puigdemont_a_23349026/

Impossibility of providing any links of this, despite asking.
So stop the lies.

These are all based off the same news story and just republished in different newspapers. They reports don't even categorically state that the Spanish police were searching cars and the articles also go on to say

The Spanish law enforcement agencies are authorized to carry out inspections on French territory in very specific configurations

Do you really think that France would stand idly by while Spanish national police searched the vehicles of French citizens within French borders and that the Spanish police don't already know where Puidgemont is 24 hours a day that they have to search the boot of a cars of French citizens within French borders??? Or do you really believe everything you read in the papers and everything Roger Torrent says.

Just give me 3 reasons why Catalonia should be an independent country.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

There are numerous accounts of bias in TV3 which is a state funded organisation way before this crisis started. El Pais is a private organisation and publicly stated that they are in favour of the Constitution and against independence, it's no secret what their position is. TV3 are state funded and pretend to be independent but in reality are just a propaganda machine for Puidgemeont and his supporters because all the senior executives in TV3 have been promoted and handpicked by independence politicians i return for political favours which is evident in their reportage.

bertie 56 wrote: »

Impossibility of providing any links of this, despite asking.
So stop the lies.

From the Wall Street Journal in January 2014 https://www.wsj.com/articles/catalan-tv-network-reflects-separatist-fervor-1388615902

TV3 was nonetheless criticized widely in Catalonia for its coverage of the last regional day, on Sept. 11, when Catalans formed a 400-kilometer (250-mile) human chain. TV3 aired interviews with boys and girls as young as 11 uttering separatist slogans while clad in the red, white and blue colors of the independence movement.

"Sometimes TV3 is worse than Soviet TV was," said Alfons Quinta, who was TV3's managing director in the 1980s and is now retired. "I watch Cubavisión, and it's no worse than TV3."

As for the Spanish language, it is rarely heard on TV3. José Miguel Guardia, a popular blogger, recalls that the only Spanish speaker in the network's first soap opera, produced more than 20 years ago, was a servant with little education.
Lower-class characters today account for most of those who speak Spanish in locally produced TV3 shows. Spanish-language movies are dubbed into Catalan.
TV3 employees say the predominance of Catalan reflects social reality.
But Mr. Guardia, who calls himself as a wavering member of the pro-independence camp, said that most Catalans speak Spanish at least as well as Catalan, if not better.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

There are numerous accounts of bias in TV3 (...) and pretend to be independent (...) which is evident in their reportage.

Who are you trying to fool ? Evident in their reportage ? Not knowing Spanish nor Catalan, you succeed to find something " evident in their reportage " ???
There is a name for this ( first Spanish lesson ) : hacer el payaso

For the rest :

numerous accounts

Impressive list !
One link of an old article from a Yankee ? Whose only " witness " was a guy working there 40 years ago ? ( language part = completely irrelevant for the subject )
You went far in time and in space to get this one ....

There is a name for this ( second Spanish lesson ) : ser tontolin

I was hoping something like :
- an recent official media survey ( like I posted )
- any judgment talking about disinformation ( like I posted )
- At least 10 proven facts , taken from TV3 ( like I posted )
...etc.etc...
well, something consistent, at least !

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I read the second paragraph of what you posted https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105998208&postcount=1705

And then you quote the last paragraph ....

And go at me "Your posts just don't make any sense ".

Obviously, the swap can't have been made by mistake : not at all at the same place or near, with the subjects being completely different.
Really no, not since it was the second time I was posting this quote.

Seeing that, I , once again, note that the debate doesn't interest you.

No care for reading the posts, no interest in the answers except for creating ruptures and lodging other disruptions .

Your target seems only to turn in circles,nothing new brought, back to questions already answered 50 pages ago but no, " I haven't got the answer for that, " etc, etc...

Since your target was killing the thread , fair play to you ...
It is surely the only thing you succeed here, so be proud, you did it.

There is a name for this too ( third Spanish lesson ) : trollear


In a way, nothing is surprising when reading one of your former post here :

Did everyone just see what I did to @The Golden Miller, it was like this... + image

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105112882&postcount=964

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v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

There is a name for this too ( third Spanish lesson ) : trollear

.

We attack the post not the poster.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Another article from October 2017 if the previous was was "too old" for you.

It's also from the guardian which I know you like because you've posted articles from them before. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/15/catalan-secession-incubated-media-cocoon.

The article points out that the pro Independence advocates often mix facts with emotions which is something that I've been stating on this thread over and over.

Their argument can be pursued in two ways. One, filled with the emotion that surrounds the independence vote; the other more reflectively. Let’s take the high road.

...but this mingling of fact and conviction crosses many borders

Barna77

I had to come back here to check what was said about Anna Gabriel's "escape"

So anti capitalism as she was , and she's looking for asylum in Switzerland.
If it wasn't true you'd think it was made up.
I'm guessing she'll go up to the highest mountain, as far as possible from any bank or anyone with a high personal income.

recedite

Puigedemont has been caught and arrested by German police, sparking mass unrest and street protests in Catalonia.

If there is one thing worse than a country that abuses the European arrest warrant system by issuing one for an opposition politician, its a country that is such a stickler for rules that it actually takes the warrant seriously.

Now we are seeing the EU at its dysfunctional worst.

Berwick

I hope he will be released from prison tomorrow.

recedite

Unlikely. The Germans will now follow a strict protocol, as designed to catch international criminals.

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

If there is one thing worse than a country that abuses the European arrest warrant system by issuing one for an opposition politician...

You think opposition politicians should have immunity from arrest warrants?

LuckyLloyd

recedite wrote: »

Puigedemont has been caught and arrested by German police, sparking mass unrest and street protests in Catalonia.

If there is one thing worse than a country that abuses the European arrest warrant system by issuing one for an opposition politician, its a country that is such a stickler for rules that it actually takes the warrant seriously.

Now we are seeing the EU at its dysfunctional worst.

Meh. I don't see the problem here tbh.

antamadan

It's a disgrace the way existing states think God made their borders and places like Catalonia MUST not be allowed a vote on independence

antamadan

And France's attitude to Corsica

Shannon_Bound

In my opionion the Breakup of Spain will never happen

antamadan

It's amazing really, that we got anywhere with the north. The EU really sees Ireland as a whole as a country. It's about the only place where existing borders are considered not cast in stone

v638sg7k1a92bx

antamadan wrote: »

It's a disgrace the way existing states think God made their borders and places like Catalonia MUST not be allowed a vote on independence

Places like Catalonia ARE allowed to vote on independence. What politicians are not not allowed do is make Unilateral Declarations of Independence when they don't represent the democratic majority of their own Catalan parliament or the people of Spain.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Places like Catalonia ARE allowed to vote on independence. What politicians are not not allowed do is make Unilateral Declarations of Independence when they don't represent the democratic majority of their own Catalan parliament or the people of Spain.

Catalonia are not allowed to vote for independence. Catalonia and Spain voting on Catalan independence is not Catalonia voting on Catalan independence. Although this distinction has been pointed out to you again and again, you seem to continually ignore it as you regurgitate the same soundbites like some boring drone

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Catalonia are not allowed to vote for independence. Catalonia and Spain voting on Catalan independence is not Catalonia voting on Catalan independence. Although this distinction has been pointed out to you again and again, you seem to continually ignore it as you regurgitate the same soundbites like some boring drone

Wrong again.

1. Generalitat with a 2/3 majority
2. Catalonia
3. All of Spain

The independence movement cannot get over the first hurdle because they don't have the democratic majority. Fact is that the majority of people in Catalonia and Spain want to remain part of Spain. Numerous polls have shown this and the last election in Catalonia proved it.

What part of this do the Independence advocates not understand, THEY DO NOT HAVE A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY!

It's also interesting that it is now the Mossos d'esquadra who are clashing with protesters. Remember on Oct 1 when people were crying and hugging each other about how the mossos were protecting the Catalans from the National police...

A Dub in Glasgo

There you go again conflating 'majority' with '2/3 majority'.... it is not the same thing as was pointed out to you on many many occasions. The 2/3 majority was put there specifically as a bulwark to Catalan independence. Imagine if we conducted politics on a 2/3 majority basis, very little would get done

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Wrong again.

1. Generalitat with a 2/3 majority
2. Catalonia
3. All of Spain

The independence movement cannot get over the first hurdle because they don't have the democratic majority. Fact is that the majority of people in Catalonia and Spain want to remain part of Spain. Numerous polls have shown this and the last election in Catalonia proved it.

What part of this do the Independence advocates not understand, THEY DO NOT HAVE A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY!

It's also interesting that it is now the Mossos d'esquadra who are clashing with protesters. Remember on Oct 1 when people were crying and hugging each other about how the mossos were protecting the Catalans from the National police...

Wrong again as you say. Even if they gain the 2/3rd's majority, they do not get a vote on independence. The whole of Spain does. That is not self-determination, in which you keep conflating that they do have. Is there something about basic English that you struggle to process, seeing as you reply to my points with tangents of information unrelated to what I said i.e the 2/3rds majority. They do not have, or cannot have, a vote to determine their independence, irregardless of anything else. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Wrong again as you say. Even if they gain the 2/3rd's majority, they do not get a vote on independence. The whole of Spain does. That is not self-determination, in which you keep conflating that they do have. Is there something about basic English that you struggle to process, seeing as you reply to my points with tangents of information unrelated to what I said i.e the 2/3rds majority. They do not have, or cannot have, a vote to determine their independence, irregardless of anything else. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

You keep saying that but I've pointed out the statutory requirements that allows for Catalan independence and you just screech about your feels.

FYI, self determination doesn't apply to Catalans or Catalonia. I know this is the cool, hipster, sjw buzz word that the twitterati like to use when talking about Catalonia but it's overused and doesn't apply.

Try again.