Catalan independence referendum, 2017

v638sg7k1a92bx

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

There you go again conflating 'majority' with '2/3 majority'.... it is not the same thing as was pointed out to you on many many occasions. The 2/3 majority was put there specifically as a bulwark to Catalan independence. Imagine if we conducted politics on a 2/3 majority basis, very little would get done

Considering that it is article 56 of the Catalan statutes of autonomy that contains this provision. How did you come to the conclusion that this was a "bulwark" to independence?

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You keep saying that but I've pointed out the statutory requirements that allows for Catalan independence and you just screech about your feels.

FYI, self determination doesn't apply to Catalans or Catalonia. I know this is the cool, hipster, sjw buzz word that the twitterati like to use when talking about Catalonia but it's overused and doesn't apply.

Try again.

It's a pointless exercise debating with you, as you regurgitate the same points that are easily refuted again and again, which has in effect destroyed the thread. You have now proceeded to repeat another point roundly refuted i.e self-determination does not apply to Catalans, yet can't give any real reason, other than it's "not a country". Then this leads onto you trying to argue how Scotland is a country, therefore self-determination can apply to them, while Catalonia isn't, your definition of a "country" being based on your own parameters of course. But we've been over these points again and again. So I can only assume the reason you continually come on here to repeat the same things again and again, is to "win" (in your own head of course), which is almost as pathetic as the WWE meme's you post.

Can you provide a link showing a the word majority or "democratic majority" means having 2/3rd support? If not why are you taking posters to point on something they never said? So everyone can see how you're right and win?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Why is it pro independence advocates always ask for sources when they never provide any themselves?

Scotland is a country, Catalonia is not. Both the referendums in Scotland and Canada were conducted in accordance with the rule of law in those countries. Catalonian referendum was both unconstitutional under Spanish law and also broke the rules of the Catalonian statutes of autonomy.

Self determination only applies to colonised people and people under apartheid regimes. As a matter of international law you only become a state when recognised by other states which is why your comparison to Ireland's fight for independence and the whole bases for your argument has just fallen to pieces

NEXT!

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It's a pointless exercise debating with you, as you regurgitate the same points that are easily refuted again and again, which has in effect destroyed the thread. You have now proceeded to repeat another point roundly refuted i.e self-determination does not apply to Catalans, yet can't give any real reason, other than it's "not a country". Then this leads onto you trying to argue how Scotland is a country, therefore self-determination can apply to them, while Catalonia isn't, your definition of a "country" being based on your own parameters of course. But we've been over these points again and again. So I can only assume the reason you continually come on here to repeat the same things again and again, is to "win" (in your own head of course), which is almost as pathetic as the WWE meme's you post.

Can you provide a link showing a the word majority or "democratic majority" means having 2/3rd support? If not why are you taking posters to point on something they never said? So everyone can see how you're right and win?

As you were told previously. The right to self determination does not apply to Catalonia. The same way the right to self determine does not apply to people of Leinster. It's an established principal of international law, you don't just get to decide that you're a people and therefore have a right to self determination.

Why is it the posters who make the most unsubstantiated claims are always the ones who are looking for "links". Article 56 of the statute here it is, again, for the tenth time. https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/48089.pdf

Now, could you provide "links" to facts, not articles that link to other articles, that substantiate your claims???

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

As you were told previously. The right to self determination does not apply to Catalonia. The same way the right to self determine does not apply to people of Leinster. It's an established principal of international law, you don't just get to decide that you're a people and therefore have a right to self determination.

Why is it the posters who make the most unsubstantiated claims are always the ones who are looking for "links". Article 56 of the statute here it is, again, for the tenth time. https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/48089.pdf

Now, could you provide "links" to facts, not articles that link to other articles, that substantiate your claims???

Again, Leinster is not distinct culturally, or distinct on any other grounds for that matter. Catalonia is, which has been pointed out before, but you know this already. So why are you regurgitating false analogies? So Catalonia don't get to decide they are a people, but even Spain recognises them as distinct. So now you'll be disagreeing with Spain? If Catalonia don't have the right to self-determination, why do Spain in theory allow for their independence if certain criteria is met? If they were not a unique people or nation, they would not even be allowed independence in theory under any criteria.

You are asking for links to an argument you invented, which you shoehorned in like a child to try and "win". The poster originally said Catalonia don't get to vote for independence, which they don't, as the rest of Spain will also have a vote. That simple

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Again, Leinster is not distinct culturally, or distinct on any other grounds for that matter. Catalonia is, which has been pointed out before, but you know this already. So why are you regurgitating false analogies? So Catalonia don't get to decide they are a people, but even Spain recognises them as distinct. So now you'll be disagreeing with Spain? If Catalonia don't have the right to self-determination, why do Spain in theory allow for their independence if certain criteria is met? If they were not a unique people or nation, they would not even be allowed independence in theory under any criteria.

You are asking for links to an argument you invented, which you shoehorned in like a child to try and "win". The poster originally said Catalonia don't get to vote for independence, which they don't, as the rest of Spain will also have a vote. That simple

So do you know accept the fact about the 2/3 majority?

Catalonia is one of several regions of Spain. Leinster is also a region (province) of Ireland. I also don't accept the notion that Catalonia has this unique culture from Spain. Outside of the language, most people will struggle to come up with 3 significant differences between Spanish and "Catalan culture" which does not include some trivial point about they way the cook beef or the songs they sing.

If that's not good enough for you, what about Northern Ireland? Based on the same criteria that is used to justify Catalan independence you would by default be against the notion of a united Ireland. Based on your criteria, only the people of Northern Ireland are entitled to vote in a referendum for a united Ireland?

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So do you know accept the fact about the 2/3 majority?

Who exactly is disputing that this is the case. People are disputing the rights and wrongs of selectively making it a 2/3rds majority, no one is disputing the fact that as it stands, they need a 2/3rd majority. So when someone says Catalonia do not get a vote on independence, replying that they need a 2/3rd majority is totally mute and irrelevant, as they still would not have a vote for independence even if they obtained that 2/3rds majority. You beginning to follow?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Catalonia is one of several regions of Spain. Leinster is also a region (province) of Ireland. I also don't accept the notion that Catalonia has this unique culture from Spain. Outside of the language, most people will struggle to come up with 3 significant differences between Spanish and "Catalan culture" which does not include some trivial point about they way the cook beef or the songs they sing.

No, Catalonia is akin to Wales or Scotland, not Leinster. Language is one of the cornerstones of a unique culture, as at one point or another, this collection of people were indigenous to a certain place, who engaged primarily with themselves until populations grew. So yes, language is one of the most important identifiers of cultural uniqueness, but it's not the only thing of course. But again, this is a mute point. Spain already acknowledges Catalonia as a nation. So the question is, if they are a unique nation, why should they not be allowed to self-determine

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If that's not good enough for you, what about Northern Ireland? Based on the same criteria that is used to justify Catalan independence you would by default be against the notion of a united Ireland. Based on your criteria, only the people of Northern Ireland are entitled to vote in a referendum for a united Ireland?

The north is not relevant here, unless Catalonia gained independence and became partitioned. Most parallels with Ireland end at partition. But yes, those in the north should be the only one's allowed to decide. But you are mixing up your analogies. You think because we have a say on whether to accept the north, that this is the same as the rest of Spain having a say to hold onto Catalonia? The only parallel here is if the rest of the UK had a say in regards to holding onto the north, if the north had a vote. But the rest of the UK don't/won't, because that is not how true democracy works when a nation, or in the norths case a statelet, wants to self-determine

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Who exactly is disputing that this is the case. People are disputing the rights and wrongs of selectively making it a 2/3rds majority, no one is disputing the fact that as it stands, they need a 2/3rd majority. So when someone says Catalonia do not get a vote on independence, replying that they need a 2/3rd majority is totally mute and irrelevant, as they still would not have a vote for independence even if they obtained that 2/3rds majority. You beginning to follow?



No, Catalonia is akin to Wales or Scotland, not Leinster. Language is one of the cornerstones of a unique culture, as at one point or another, this collection of people were indigenous to a certain place, who engaged primarily with themselves until populations grew. So yes, language is one of the most important identifiers of cultural uniqueness, but it's not the only thing of course. But again, this is a mute point. Spain already acknowledges Catalonia as a nation. So the question is, if they are a unique nation, why should they not be allowed to self-determine



The north is not relevant here, unless Catalonia gained independence and became partitioned. Most parallels with Ireland end at partition. But yes, those in the north should be the only one's allowed to decide. But you are mixing up your analogies. You think because we have a say on whether to accept the north, that this is the same as the rest of Spain having a say to hold onto Catalonia? The only parallel here is if the rest of the UK had a say in regards to holding onto the north, if the north had a vote. But the rest of the UK don't/won't, because that is not how true democracy works when a nation, or in the norths case a statelet, wants to self-determine

Your post is littered with contradictions. Scotland and Wales are countries, Catalonia is not. Leinster is a province in Ireland, Catalonia is a region of Spain.

In the next paragraph you say that Catalonia is not comparable to N Ireland even though N Ireland is a country just like Scotland and Wales. You then say that the only people who should decide on a United Ireland are the people of N Ireland, so I as a citizen of the Republic have no say in the dismantling of the Republic???

You then say that that the rest of the UK has no vote in a United Ireland but fail to realise that the reason for this is because of the legally binding Good Friday Agreement of which ALL of the people on the island of Ireland voted for but yet you think that when it comes to actual independence that only the people of N Ireland should be entitled to vote in that the decision.

Additionally, the reason the GFA is legally binding is because the Irish and UK governments have guaranteed that agreement the same way the Spanish government has guaranteed the Spanish constitution. So you recognise the legally binding conditions of the GFA and not those of the Spanish constitution?

You still haven't told us how Catalonia is culturally different without mentioning language while forgetting that other regions of Spain also have different languages so again no links, no back up just high level political science student thesis answers. Catalonia has always been part of Spain, it was the Kingdom of Aragon (Catalonia) which formed the country of Spain as we know it today and those borders have not changed for 500 years.

While you're at it, may as well post the link that Spain recognises Catalonia as a nation.

I feel a WWE sleeper hold meme coming on.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Your post is littered with contradictions. Scotland and Wales are countries, Catalonia is not. Leinster is a province in Ireland, Catalonia is a region of Spain.

Because you say so? Why are Wales and Scotland a country, while Catalonia is not? Does Leinster have devolved status or recognition of any sort in anything? Are Leinster people culturally unique in anyway, compared to say people of Munster?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

In the next paragraph you say that Catalonia is not comparable to N Ireland even though N Ireland is a country just like Scotland and Wales. You then say that the only people who should decide on a United Ireland are the people of N Ireland, so I as a citizen of the Republic have no say in the dismantling of the Republic???

Northern Ireland is a statelet. You seem to think the word "country" actually means something here. It's ambiguous as it's a word that can be applied in several contexts i.e interchangeably with a sovereign state while at the same time a nation with no official standing. Your own criteria of what it means, means sweet fcuk all. The word country means nothing in an official sense.

And I never once said you should have no say on the dismantling of "the Republic". The point was Spain having a say on whether Catalonia leaves, and us having a say on whether to accept the north, are not like for like analogies. Hence the only parallel with Catalonia in relation to the north, is if the rest of the UK had a say on whether the north could leave.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You then say that that the rest of the UK has no vote in a United Ireland but fail to realise that the reason for this is because of the legally binding Good Friday Agreement of which ALL of the people on the island of Ireland voted for but yet you think that when it comes to actual independence that only the people of N Ireland should be entitled to vote in that the decision.

Additionally, the reason the GFA is legally binding is because the Irish and UK governments have guaranteed that agreement the same way the Spanish government has guaranteed the Spanish constitution. So you recognise the legally binding conditions of the GFA and not those of the Spanish constitution?

Tangent of irrelevant nonsense as the point has again gone over your head. I'll phrase it in a way that includes the word "GFA", even though the GFA is immaterial here since the same applied to Scotland. So why is there no clause in the GFA that allows the rest of the UK to vote on whether the north leaves the UK? Because even the UK recognises that this would be wrong, because denying self-determination is an affront to democracy in any right thinking persons head.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You still haven't told us how Catalonia is culturally different without mentioning language while forgetting that other regions of Spain also have different languages so again no links, no back up just high level political science student thesis answers. Catalonia has always been part of Spain, it was the Kingdom of Aragon (Catalonia) which formed the country of Spain as we know it today and those borders have not changed for 500 years.

I do not care what the details are that distinguish Catalan people from anyone else aside from language, as it hold little relevance. The core tenet of a culture is language, as it proves a people are historically distinct. If it didn't, they wouldn't be speaking this language. Why do you even need cultural differences, if a certain grouping of indigenous people simply see themselves as alien to others? Are you the ruler on how a certain grouping of people should see themselves?

And what does it matter if a nation had or hadn't any formal independence previously? Are they not allowed to seek it going forward? Should Ireland have never seeked it as we had never been one apart from under British rule?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

While you're at it, may as well post the link that Spain recognises Catalonia as a nation.

I feel a WWE sleeper hold meme coming on.

You don't know that Spain recognises nationalities within it's borders? Isn't that the whole point of Spain, a union/collection of a whole host of cultures and nations? If I knew that you knew so little on the subject, I would have never even engaged with you. So ye, go on, throw up your memes and further embarrass yourself. It's amusing if nothing else.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Because you say so? Why are Wales and Scotland a country, while Catalonia is not? Does Leinster have devolved status or recognition of any sort in anything? Are Leinster people culturally unique in anyway, compared to say people of Munster?

England, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland are the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. This is an objectionable fact. Catalonia is an autonomous community within the Kingdom of Spain. This,is also a fact, not just because I say so.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Northern Ireland is a statelet. You seem to think the word "country" actually means something here. It's ambiguous as it's a word that can be applied in several contexts i.e interchangeably with a sovereign state while at the same time a nation with no official standing. Your own criteria of what it means, means sweet fcuk all. The word country means nothing in an official sense.

Northern Ireland is a statelet and the word country has no meaning???
As explained above, N. Ireland is a country, an established fact. The word country does mean something, so does the word state and the word nation, none of these words apply to Catalonia.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

And I never once said you should have no say on the dismantling of "the Republic".
The point was Spain having a say on whether Catalonia leaves, and us having a say on whether to accept the north, are not like for like analogies. Hence the only parallel with Catalonia in relation to the north, is if the rest of the UK had a say on whether the north could leave.
Tangent of irrelevant nonsense as the point has again gone over your head. I'll phrase it in a way that includes the word "GFA", even though the GFA is immaterial here since the same applied to Scotland. So why is there no clause in the GFA that allows the rest of the UK to vote on whether the north leaves the UK? Because even the UK recognises that this would be wrong, because denying self-determination is an affront to democracy in any right thinking persons head.

Two points to address in that paragraph, the rest is just rambling.

1. This is what you said, your words not mine.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

But yes, those in the north should be the only one's allowed to decide.

2. The reason the rest of the UK doesn't vote in a referendum on a United Ireland is because Northern Ireland and Rep. of Ireland are two separate countries. The same way Scotland, England and Wales are countries. It has nothing to do with an "affront to democracy" as if you were involved in drafting the the GFA.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I do not care what the details are that distinguish Catalan people from anyone else aside from language, as it hold little relevance. The core tenet of a culture is language, as it proves a people are historically distinct. If it didn't, they wouldn't be speaking this language. Why do you even need cultural differences, if a certain grouping of indigenous people simply see themselves as alien to others? Are you the ruler on how a certain grouping of people should see themselves?

If that were the case, Australia and the United States would be part of England based on your assertion that the core tenet of culture is language. As far as your concerned, Catalonia should be an independent country on the basis that they speak a different language. Did you make this rule up while you were drafting the Good Friday Agreement?

The Golden Miller wrote: »

And what does it matter if a nation had or hadn't any formal independence previously? Are they not allowed to seek it going forward? Should Ireland have never seeked it as we had never been one apart from under British rule?

You don't know that Spain recognises nationalities within it's borders? Isn't that the whole point of Spain, a union/collection of a whole host of cultures and nations? If I knew that you knew so little on the subject, I would have never even engaged with you. So ye, go on, throw up your memes and further embarrass yourself. It's amusing if nothing else.

Spain has autonomous communities not nations, the rest of your post is just rambling and it's getting tiresome debunking these half baked posts.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

England, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland are the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. This is an objectionable fact. Catalonia is an autonomous community within the Kingdom of Spain. This,is also a fact, not just because I say so.


Northern Ireland is a statelet and the word country has no meaning???
As explained above, N. Ireland is a country, an established fact. The word country does mean something, so does the word state and the word nation, none of these words apply to Catalonia.

Define the word country. This should be fun. In-house classifications of what the UK calls it's constituent parts, differs from say a sovereign state being called a country. So on what basis is Scotland a country, but Catalonia is not? The UK could change the name "constituent countries", to counties, regions or something else tomorrow if it so wished. Define the word country, and tell us how Scotland fits that definition whereas Catalonia does not. In YOUR words.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Two points to address in that paragraph, the rest is just rambling.

1. This is what you said, your words not mine.

The people in the north are the only one's allowed to decide is they want to LEAVE THE UK. Is that simple enough for you to understand. After this, we will also have a say, on whether we accept the north. I never said we wouldn't. But we will have no say on them having a vote to leave the UK. Can you really not comprehend simple points?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

2. The reason the rest of the UK doesn't vote in a referendum on a United Ireland is because Northern Ireland and Rep. of Ireland are two separate countries. The same way Scotland, England and Wales are countries. It has nothing to do with an "affront to democracy" as if you were involved in drafting the the GFA.

The people of the north are allowed to leave if they choose, without the rest of the UK having a say to hold onto them. Same with Scotland. Because these days the UK believes in self-determination. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with your above "reasoning", which can only be described as gibberish

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If that were the case, Australia and the United States would be part of England based on your assertion that the core tenet of culture is language. As far as your concerned, Catalonia should be an independent country on the basis that they speak a different language. Did you make this rule up while you were drafting the Good Friday Agreement?

Language proves, that a people are culturally unique, as before populations grew into one another, those speaking a certain language lived amongst themselves primarily, in this case, being distinct from other Spanish people. Try not to let that hurt your brain, I'm aware all this is too abstract for you little brain to process. So regarding the above, cultures expanding their sphere of influence to other parts of the world, like to the US or Australia, is irrelevant to the point.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Spain has autonomous communities not nations, the rest of your post is just rambling and it's getting tiresome debunking these half baked posts.

Are you suggesting that Spain does not recognise other nationalities within it's borders?

"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all

— Second Article of the Spanish Constitution of 1978"

SO Spain does accept there are other nationalities within Spain that are distinct? If Catalonia is not a unique nation which differs from the rest of Spain, why are other nationalities recognised at all?

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Define the word country. This should be fun. In-house classifications of what the UK calls it's constituent parts, differs from say a sovereign state being called a country. So on what basis is Scotland a country, but Catalonia is not? The UK could change the name "constituent countries", to counties, regions or something else tomorrow if it so wished. Define the word country, and tell us how Scotland fits that definition whereas Catalonia does not. In YOUR words.

The people in the north are the only one's allowed to decide is they want to LEAVE THE UK. Is that simple enough for you to understand. After this, we will also have a say, on whether we accept the north. I never said we wouldn't. But we will have no say on them having a vote to leave the UK. Can you really not comprehend simple points?

The people of the north are allowed to leave if they choose, without the rest of the UK having a say to hold onto them. Same with Scotland. Because these days the UK believes in self-determination. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with your above "reasoning", which can only be described as gibberish

Language proves, that a people are culturally unique, as before populations grew into one another, those speaking a certain language lived amongst themselves primarily, in this case, being distinct from other Spanish people. Try not to let that hurt your brain, I'm aware all this is too abstract for you little brain to process. So regarding the above, cultures expanding their sphere of influence to other parts of the world, like to the US or Australia, is irrelevant to the point.

Are you suggesting that Spain does not recognise other nationalities within it's borders?

"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all

— Second Article of the Spanish Constitution of 1978"

SO Spain does accept there are other nationalities within Spain that are distinct? If Catalonia is not a unique nation which differs from the rest of Spain, why are other nationalities recognised at all?

As a matter of international law, you become a country by being recognised by other countries. How many countries have recognised Catalan independence?

Language proves nothing. Please give an example of where a country has been recognised on the basis of their language alone?

Catalonia is an autonomous region within Spain. They do not have their own distinct nationality, this is a basic fact that you cannot seem to accept. The reason they have that autonomy is because the Spanish constitution allows it to have that autonomy, that does not make them a nation.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

As a matter of international law, you become a country by being recognised by other countries. How many countries have recognised Catalan independence?

Language proves nothing. Please give an example of where a country has been recognised on the basis of their language alone?

Catalonia is an autonomous region within Spain. They do not have their own distinct nationality, this is a basic fact that you cannot seem to accept. The reason they have that autonomy is because the Spanish constitution allows it to have that autonomy, that does not make them a nation.

As a matter of international law, what other country recognises Scotland as a country? Define to me what you believe a country is, and how Scotland fits that definition but Catalonia does not?

Language proves a people are culturally distinct. If it didn't, why do Catalan people not speak Spanish only?

Spain recognises Catalonia as having a distinct nationality. It is in the constitution. I just highlighted it in bold incase you missed it. Why do you believe a recognised distinct people, recognised by Spain too, should not have the right to self-determination?

EagererBeaver

Lots of Catalan people speak only castellano or, speak it as their primary language ahead of Catalan.

This myth that you're not Catalan if you don't support independence needs to be disabused wherever it appears.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

As a matter of international law, what other country recognises Scotland as a country? Define to me what you believe a country is, and how Scotland fits that definition but Catalonia does not?

An easier question would have been "what countries do not recognise Scotland as a country?"

At what stage does the truth and facts not matter to you anymore? Scotland was an independent country before uniting with England and placing the crowns of the two countries into one head. The two countries were still distinct. Even today, Scotland issues it's own bank notes, enters international tournaments and events as a country.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Language proves a people are culturally distinct. If it didn't, why do Catalan people not speak Spanish only?

Just because a group of people or a particular region within a country speaks a different language does not give them the automatic right to self determination. There are multiple languages within different regions of India and Nigeria yet these people are still considered Indians and Nigerians.

Even in Ireland, the travelling community have their own language and although they are an internal minority, that does not give them the right to self determination.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Spain recognises Catalonia as having a distinct nationality. It is in the constitution. I just highlighted it in bold incase you missed it. Why do you believe a recognised distinct people, recognised by Spain too, should not have the right to self-determination?

You're misinterpreting the paragraph you referred to. Problem is that you've arrived at a conclusion (for whatever reason) that you think Catalonia should be an independent country and are trying to work backwards to shoehorn your arguments to fit that conclusion. The constitution is referring to people from other countries i.e. other nationalities living in Spain. The constitution recognises their nationality, it is not referring to the autonomous regions in Spain because those people are .... SPANISH. If you're interpretation of that text in the constitution was correct, don't you think that someone in Catalonia would have picked up on that before you pointed it out on boards???

If you won't take my word for it:

Anna Stilz, professor of politics at Princeton University: https://goo.gl/QiaVcY

“The right of self-determination is conventionally thought not to extend to internal minorities within a state. It’s conventionally thought only to apply to colonized people, people subject to overseas colonization, peoples who are subject to an apartheid government or peoples under military occupation.”

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

An easier question would have been "what countries do not recognise Scotland as a country?"

At what stage does the truth and facts not matter to you anymore? Scotland was an independent country before uniting with England and placing the crowns of the two countries into one head. The two countries were still distinct. Even today, Scotland issues it's own bank notes, enters international tournaments and events as a country.

So you are now setting your own parameters on what you believe a country is? Why are you so afraid to post a definition of what a country is, and outlining how Scotland fits that criteria and Catalonia does not.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Just because a group of people or a particular region within a country speaks a different language does not give them the automatic right to self determination. There are multiple languages within different regions of India and Nigeria yet these people are still considered Indians and Nigerians.

Even in Ireland, the travelling community have their own language and although they are an internal minority, that does not give them the right to self determination.

Do travelers not also believe they are Irish. What exactly do travelers want self-determination off? Rathkeale? You love your analogies that are not like for like.

How do you know what anyone considers themselves, particularly in Nigeria? So because a subset in Nigeria who are culturally unique may not want self-determination, Catalonia can't have it? Why do you continually pull up obscure analogies that have little to do with the topic? Why do you believe a people who are culturally distinct, in a democratic country, should not be allowed self-determination if there is clearly some agitation for it?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You're misinterpreting the paragraph you referred to. Problem is that you've arrived at a conclusion (for whatever reason) that you think Catalonia should be an independent country and are trying to work backwards to shoehorn your arguments to fit that conclusion. The constitution is referring to people from other countries i.e. other nationalities living in Spain. The constitution recognises their nationality, it is not referring to the autonomous regions in Spain because those people are .... SPANISH. If you're interpretation of that text in the constitution was correct, don't you think that someone in Catalonia would have picked up on that before you pointed it out on boards???

If you won't take my word for it:

Anna Stilz, professor of politics at Princeton University: https://goo.gl/QiaVcY

"it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities"

I got it wrong, really? So the constitution is referring to people from other countries having the right to self-govern themselves when they get to Spain, is it? Don't think so. Try harder

That link has nothing to do with the point we are discussing. If it has, could you point out which lines specifically refer to Spain refusing to acknowledge other nationalities such as Catalan. I take it that link is also where you get all you "facts", "only a colonised people have the right to self-determination" for example? Or, a state much be recognised by others to become a state itself? Someone else's opinion then? Great stuff. Hilarious that you had to misquote "state" for "country", to further an earlier point on what you believed a country to be

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So you are now setting your own parameters on what you believe a country is? Why are you so afraid to post a definition of what a country is, and outlining how Scotland fits that criteria and Catalonia does not.



Do travelers not also believe they are Irish. What exactly do travelers want self-determination off? Rathkeale? You love your analogies that are not like for like.

How do you know what anyone considers themselves, particularly in Nigeria? So because a subset in Nigeria who are culturally unique may not want self-determination, Catalonia can't have it? Why do you continually pull up obscure analogies that have little to do with the topic? Why do you believe a people who are culturally distinct, in a democratic country, should not be allowed self-determination if there is clearly some agitation for it?



"it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities"

I got it wrong, really? So the constitution is referring to people from other countries having the right to self-govern themselves when they get to Spain, is it? Don't think so. Try harder

That link has nothing to do with the point we are discussing. If it has, could you point out which lines specifically refer to Spain refusing to acknowledge other nationalities such as Catalan. I take it that link is also where you get all you "facts", "only a colonised people have the right to self-determination" for example? Or, a state much be recognised by others to become a state itself? Someone else's opinion then? Great stuff. Hilarious that you had to misquote "state" for "country", to further an earlier point on what you believed a country to be

Why is it so hard for you to provide any links whatsoever. If you want a websters definition of what a country is I'm sure you can at least google that yourself. To make it easier, why don't you post a link to back up your assertion that Catalonia is a nation, this is what you're hanging your hat on so surely you can give you piece of corroborating evidence? I suspect you won't and because you can't provide any argument as why Catalonia is a country (or nation) other than your botched attempt to interpret the Spanish constitution and some fluff talk about culture and language. Yes Irish travellers do consider themselves Irish just like the majority of people in Catalonia consider themselves Spanish.

Just give one example of why Catalonia should be an independent country considering that the majority of people living there want to remain part of Spain and you can't cite language, culture or your "feels".

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Why is it so hard for you to provide any links whatsoever. If you want a websters definition of what a country is I'm sure you can at least google that yourself. To make it easier, why don't you post a link to back up your assertion that Catalonia is a nation, this is what you're hanging your hat on so surely you can give you piece of corroborating evidence? I suspect you won't and because you can't provide any argument as why Catalonia is a country (or nation) other than your botched attempt to interpret the Spanish constitution and some fluff talk about culture and language. Yes Irish travellers do consider themselves Irish just like the majority of people in Catalonia consider themselves Spanish.

First results from a two second search:

Country: a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory


Nation: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory


They were hard to find. You had me on the ropes there for a minute. So back to point, can you point out how Scotland fits either criteria, while Catalonia doesn't? For the record, about posting evidence, the onus fell on you to provide proof, as you are the one disputing that a nation with no international recognition is a country, that being Scotland, while another nation with no international recognition isn't, Catalonia.

As for the Spanish constitution, why would it refer to "nationalities" from outside the country, when the context was self-government of the nations/regions? I expect you to address neither point once again, and go on a tangent of "fluff" talk.

Also, what makes you believe the majority of Catalan people consider themselves Spanish? Just making it up as you go again?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Just give one example of why Catalonia should be an independent country considering that the majority of people living there want to remain part of Spain and you can't cite language, culture or your "feels".

I never said it should be independent, I said any nation should have the right to self-determination i.e the choice at least. You have yet to give me any reason why they should not, except coming up with gibberish about equivalent nations like Scotland having a football team so it only applys to them and other such nonsense. What is this word "feels" you keep going on about? Something you and your 15 year old mates say to each other when you's fap over watching sweaty WWE actors roll around a ring?

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

First results from a two second search:

Country: a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory


Nation: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory


They were hard to find. You had me on the ropes there for a minute. So back to point, can you point out how Scotland fits either criteria, while Catalonia doesn't? For the record, about posting evidence, the onus fell on you to provide proof, as you are the one disputing that a nation with no international recognition is a country, that being Scotland, while another nation with no international recognition isn't, Catalonia.

As for the Spanish constitution, why would it refer to "nationalities" from outside the country, when the context was self-government of the nations/regions? I expect you to address neither point once again, and go on a tangent of "fluff" talk.

Also, what makes you believe the majority of Catalan people consider themselves Spanish? Just making it up as you go again?



I never said it should be independent, I said any nation should have the right to self-determination i.e the choice at least. You have yet to give me any reason why they should not, except coming up with gibberish about equivalent nations like Scotland having a football team so it only applys to them and other such nonsense. What is this word "feels" you keep going on about? Something you and your 15 year old mates say to each other when you's fap over watching sweaty WWE actors roll around a ring?

So Scotland has no international recognition? Despite the fact it was a country before it united with England to form the UK, despite the fact it is one of the four constituent countries that makes up the UK. What about England, is England also not a country? As a matter of interest which countries don't recognise Scotland as a country?

The term "nation" has various meanings, the reason that you are so eager to apply this definition to Catalonia is because if you get to label Catalonia as a nation then you think that the right to self determination automatically applies. As explained, the right to SD does not apply to a minority of people who make UDI as a result of fake referendums, Even Ban Ki Moon of the United Nations (that's the international body that recognises peoples right to SD in case you weren't aware) is on record saying that Catalonia cannot just decide it is an independent country http://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-independence-ban-ki-moon-2419635-Nov2015/

Even if we took your rudimentary definition of a nation, as of this point in time, Catalonia does not have it's own autonomous government so by your selective definition, Catalonia no longer meets your criteria. So again, you've shot yourself in the foot with your own comments.

Every poll, election and fake referendum tells us that the majority of people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain. The largest political party in Catalonia is a pro unity party, even pro independence advocates after the last election in December are conceding this and are now agitating for nation status.

At what stage are you going to keep flogging this dead horse? Just let it go, you lost, the facts aren't on your side and your now tripping yourself up with your own words.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So Scotland has no international recognition? Despite the fact it was a country before it united with England to form the UK, despite the fact it is one of the four constituent countries that makes up the UK. What about England, is England also not a country? As a matter of interest which countries don't recognise Scotland as a country?

So you ask for definitions, I supply them and now you ignore them because they don't suit what you believe a country to be? Explain to everyone, based on the definitions supplied, or any other definitions you find, how Scotland can be deemed a country and Catalonia cannot? Don't put words in my mouth either, I never said England or Scotland aren't countries, under certain contexts they are and also nations. Spain, just like the UK, is made up of various nations.

What other country recognizes Scotland as a state? And why do you keep talking about what Scotland used to be? Meath used to be a province, it's not anymore. That's the way it is.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The term "nation" has various meanings, the reason that you are so eager to apply this definition to Catalonia is because if you get to label Catalonia as a nation then you think that the right to self determination automatically applies. As explained, the right to SD does not apply to a minority of people who make UDI as a result of fake referendums, Even Ban Ki Moon of the United Nations (that's the international body that recognises peoples right to SD in case you weren't aware) is on record saying that Catalonia cannot just decide it is an independent country http://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-independence-ban-ki-moon-2419635-Nov2015/

Even if we took your rudimentary definition of a nation, as of this point in time, Catalonia does not have it's own autonomous government so by your selective definition, Catalonia no longer meets your criteria. So again, you've shot yourself in the foot with your own comments.

So on one hand you say Catalonia is definitely not a nation, and now your back tracking saying it has various meanings? But I'm the one tripping over myself? Your delusion is hilarious mate.

And it seems once again your confused. Having your own government was a prerequisite for being a country, not a nation. So why can Catalonia not be a nation because it does not have a government? Again, your tripping yourself up every second sentence. It's comical. You don't have a clue.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Every poll, election and fake referendum tells us that the majority of people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain. The largest political party in Catalonia is a pro unity party, even pro independence advocates after the last election in December are conceding this and are now agitating for nation status.

At what stage are you going to keep flogging this dead horse? Just let it go, you lost, the facts aren't on your side and your now tripping yourself up with your own words.

Here we go again. Tripping over yourself once more. Can't remember 5 minutes back. I never said they wanted independence, I said they should have the right to self-determination, so why are you waffling about independence? Trying to misrepresent what I'm saying again? So basically you've no idea if the majority want self-determination then? There's a surprise, not!

You're funny man, you're blend of arrogance and ignorance has all the hallmarks of a truly terrible poster, but an amusing one. I'll keep replying to you though, cause like a child you're desperate to get the last word in and "win". It's hilarious

v638sg7k1a92bx

I'm happy to post as much as necessary. The simple facts are that Catalonia is not a nation and is not a country. Everything I've posted I'm willing to back up, if you can give me examples of why Catalonia is a nation or a country I'm happy to hear them.

The only evidence you've posted to back up your assertion that Catalonia is a nation was the websters definition of the word nation.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Country: a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory

Nation: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory

Since Catalonia does not have its own autonomous government at this point in time your selective definition doesn't stand up to scrutiny either, bearing in mind that the majority of people living in Catalonia consider themselves Spanish and that their shared history, culture and language is Spanish.

I've explained to you why Scotland is a country and why Catalonia is not. I given the reasons as to why Catalonia is neither a country nor a nation but you seem to have fixated on the English dictionaries definition a the word nation. I've also explained and posted references to to why the right to self determination does not apply to Catalonia including one from an academic in Princeton University and another from the Secretary General of the United Nations.

So, with this in mind, can you please give me an example of why in your opinion Catalonia is a nation or a country and based on what criteria?

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I'm happy to post as much as necessary. The simple facts are that Catalonia is not a nation and is not a country. Everything I've posted I'm willing to back up, if you can give me examples of why Catalonia is a nation or a country I'm happy to hear them.

However, up until this point the only evidence you've posted to back up your assertion that Catalonia is a nation was the websters definition. Since Catalonia does not have its own autonomous government at this point in time your selective definition doesn't stand up to scrutiny either.

So can you please give me an example of why Catalonia is a nation or a country and based on what criteria.

Oxford: A large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.

How does Catalonia not fit this definition? The problem here is you have a set definition in your head of what a nation and country are, which are wrong, uninformed and contradictory definitions, when say compared to Scotland. I have now given you two definitions that Catalonia fits the bill for. Funnily enough, you've yet to give a definition to counter either of these two, or explain how Catalan people do not have common descent, language, history, culture in a particular territory. Are you ever going to address this directly instead of just repeating "no they aren't a nation". That doesn't really cut the mustard I'm afraid

For this whole thread you have failed to directly reply to the points made, instead giving tangents of information related to the topic but generally unrelated to the points being made at that time. For example, I've quoted the Spanish constitution showing you how they recognise other nationalities within their borders who govern themselves. Your only response has been some opinion of some American talking about something unrelated, immigrants moving into Spain basically. Even if her opinion was related to the topic, do you believe she is a higher authority on the subject than the people who wrote the Spanish constitution themselves? You still can't address these points, so prefer to sidetrack the debate with unrelated links. The Spanish constitution states it recognises other nationalities within it's borders and their right to govern themselves, that is a fact and something you still cannot address. So do you still refuse to accept the Spanish constitution recognises other nationalities within it's borders?

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Since Catalonia does not have its own autonomous government at this point in time your selective definition doesn't stand up to scrutiny either,

Didn't see these two points. So you accept Scotland wasn't a country for 200 years before devolution? Were we not a country before FG threw a government together?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

bearing in mind that the majority of people living in Catalonia consider themselves Spanish and that their shared history, culture and language is Spanish.

Of course Catalan people can partake in Spanish culture, just as we have with British culture. Irish is still a distinct culture on it's own merits too, just like Catalan culture is.

And you have evidence suggesting most people in Catalonia consider themselves Spanish?

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Didn't see these two points. So you accept Scotland wasn't a country for 200 years before devolution? Were we not a country before FG threw a government together?

As you've been told, Scotland and England were always countries. They united their countries under one crown and have always remained separate countries. Scotland is a country, issues it's own bank notes and is one of the legally recognised constituent countries of the United Kingdom. I'm not sure why you have such a hard time accepting this know fact.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Of course Catalan people can partake in Spanish culture, just as we have with British culture. Irish is still a distinct culture on it's own merits too, just like Catalan culture is.

They are not partaking in Spanish culture, it is their culture. Even if we accept that it was uniquely different over 500 years ago, it is so distilled into Spanish culture that you cannot come up with any discernible differences other than language and minor differences around food which are consistent differences in all parts of Spain and not just in Catalonia. So this label of Catalonia having a distinct culture so that it fits with your oxford definition of what is a nation doesn't apply. Any of the cultural differences that you mention are prevalent all over Spain which does not make Catalonia unique, consequently they don't have a unique culture and they currently don't have their own autonomy so your oxford definition does not apply.

None of what I'm saying here is considered controversial, even independence advocates are agitating for nationhood since their attempted coup has failed.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

And you have evidence suggesting most people in Catalonia consider themselves Spanish?

This has been discussed ad nausea on this thread that I cannot be bothered posting it here again. There is not one scintilla of real evidence that tells us that the majority of people in Catalonia want to be independent. The last elections in December prove that the majority of people want to remain part of Spain.

If you have any evidence to suggest that Catalonia is a nation (other than the oxford dictionary) or that the majority of people in Catalonia want to be independent I'm happy to hear them, but trying to rebut my posts by asking me to define what a nation is or to prove why Catalonia is not a country makes you sound like an evangelical asking an atheist to prove that God doesn't exist. The onus is on you to prove why Catalonia is a nation/country and to prove that the majority of people in Catalonia want to be independent not by asking me to prove a negative.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

As you've been told, Scotland and England were always countries. They united their countries under one crown and have always remained separate countries. Scotland is a country, issues it's own bank notes and is one of the legally recognised constituent countries of the United Kingdom. I'm not sure why you have such a hard time accepting this know fact.

But I've already stated Scotland is a country, just like Catalonia. They are two devolved government institutions, with certain levels of autonomy, within a sovereign nation, the UK and Spain. Just because Scotland prints a Scottish variant of a British bank note, does not make them anymore of a country than Catalonia. You are once again setting your own criteria of what you believe a country to be.

You asked me to supply you definitions of what a country is, and now ignore them because it doesn't suit your misguided view of what you believe a country to be. It is a nation with a government in a particular territory. That simple. That is the factual definition of what that word means and Catalonia fits that definition. What you consider a country to be, is neither here nor there. You cannot just make up your own meanings of what you want a word to be

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

They are not partaking in Spanish culture, it is their culture. Even if we accept that it was uniquely different over 500 years ago, it is so distilled into Spanish culture that you cannot come up with any discernible differences other than language and minor differences around food which are consistent differences in all parts of Spain and not just in Catalonia. So this label of Catalonia having a distinct culture so that it fits with your oxford definition of what is a nation doesn't apply. Any of the cultural differences that you mention are prevalent all over Spain which does not make Catalonia unique, consequently they don't have a unique culture and they currently don't have their own autonomy so your oxford definition does not apply.

None of what I'm saying here is considered controversial, even independence advocates are agitating for nationhood since their attempted coup has failed.

By the same token of your logic, Britishness not Scottishness, is Scotland's culture, seeing as they come under British sovereignty like Catalonia comes under Spanish sovereignty. Name some cultural differences between Scotland and the rest of Britain, apart from minor details?

Once again, you are placing your own criteria on what you believe a nation to be, ignoring what the word is actually defined as. Catalonia does actually have a history, indigenous people with a common decent, it's own language and customs. Whether Spain has subsumed some of this, the way British culture has subsumed some of Scottish culture, does not mean Catalan and Scottish culture is defunct. They are a thing believe it or not. Again, YOUR made up criteria of what a nation is, is neither here nor there.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

This has been discussed ad nausea on this thread that I cannot be bothered posting it here again. There is not one scintilla of real evidence that tells us that the majority of people in Catalonia want to be independent. The last elections in December prove that the majority of people want to remain part of Spain.

If you have any evidence to suggest that Catalonia is a nation (other than the oxford dictionary) or that the majority of people in Catalonia want to be independent I'm happy to hear them, but trying to rebut my posts by asking me to define what a nation is or to prove why Catalonia is not a country makes you sound like an evangelical asking an atheist to prove that God doesn't exist. The onus is on you to prove why Catalonia is a nation/country and to prove that the majority of people in Catalonia want to be independent not by asking me to prove a negative.

Again, I am talking about self-determination, not independence. If you state something as a fact, the onus is on you to provide proof. If you state as fact that the majority of Catalan people do not want self-determination then give evidence to show this, otherwise you are talking out your arse. That simple.

Seeing as Catalonia is defined as a nation under every criteria of every definition that exists, then the onus is on you to dispute otherwise. It is also designated as a nationality on the Statute of Autonomy, under the Spanish Constitution. I've given definitions of what the word means when asked. If you disagree with Spain and every definition of what the word means, then you should have no problem supplying us with a definition that fits your own personal criteria. This is hilarious altogether. You dispute something yet can't find one definition to back your assertion up. Spain and the actual meaning of the word are wrong of course, but Celia Late Troop OPINION is solid fact. You're endless hours of amusement mate

Catalonia may not be a country or nation in your eye's, but it is a country and nation under the criteria of what the words actually mean, not what you want the words to mean. Catalonia is also designated a nationality by Spain. So I'll ask again, are you disputing the Spanish Statute of Autonomy that Catalan is infact a distinct nationality? BTW, that's fact under Spanish law, not my opinion

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

But I've already stated Scotland is a country, just like Catalonia. They are two devolved government institutions, with certain levels of autonomy, within a sovereign nation, the UK and Spain. Just because Scotland prints a Scottish variant of a British bank note, does not make them anymore of a country than Catalonia. You are once again setting your own criteria of what you believe a country to be.

You asked me to supply you definitions of what a country is, and now ignore them because it doesn't suit your misguided view of what you believe a country to be. It is a nation with a government in a particular territory. That simple. That is the factual definition of what that word means and Catalonia fits that definition. What you consider a country to be, is neither here nor there. You cannot just make up your own meanings of what you want a word to be



By the same token of your logic, Britishness not Scottishness, is Scotland's culture, seeing as they come under British sovereignty like Catalonia comes under Spanish sovereignty. Name some cultural differences between Scotland and the rest of Britain, apart from minor details?

Once again, you are placing your own criteria on what you believe a nation to be, ignoring what the word is actually defined as. Catalonia does actually have a history, indigenous people with a common decent, it's own language and customs. Whether Spain has subsumed some of this, the way British culture has subsumed some of Scottish culture, does not mean Catalan and Scottish culture is defunct. They are a thing believe it or not. Again, YOUR made up criteria of what a nation is, is neither here nor there.



Again, I am talking about self-determination, not independence. If you state something as a fact, the onus is on you to provide proof. If you state as fact that the majority of Catalan people do not want self-determination then give evidence to show this, otherwise you are talking out your arse. That simple.

Seeing as Catalonia is defined as a nation under every criteria of every definition that exists, then the onus is on you to dispute otherwise. It is also designated as a nationality on the Statute of Autonomy, under the Spanish Constitution. I've given definitions of what the word means when asked. If you disagree with Spain and every definition of what the word means, then you should have no problem supplying us with a definition that fits your own personal criteria. This is hilarious altogether. You dispute something yet can't find one definition to back your assertion up. Spain and the actual meaning of the word are wrong of course, but Tickers OPINION is solid fact. You're endless hours of amusement mate

Catalonia may not be a country or nation in your eye's, but it is a country and nation under the criteria of what the words actually mean, not what you want the words to mean. Catalonia is also designated a nationality by Spain. So I'll ask again, are you disputing the Spanish Statute of Autonomy that Catalan is infact a distinct nationality? BTW, that's fact under Spanish law, not my opinion

A long post which doesnt say anything. It appears the only person on the planet that recognises Catalonia as a country is you. if you want to take the legal definition as opposed to the English dictionary, you become a state by being recognised by other states. No other state recognises Catalonia.

The Statutes of autonomy only exist because the Spanish constitution allows it to exist. If you're so intent of using the English dictionary definition of the word Country, Catalonia currently has no autonomy and therefore no sovereignty i.e. It doesn't meet your own definition of a country.

Even the most ardent independence supporters will tell you Catalonia is not a country. So since Catalonia doesn't fit the definition of a country legally or literally. Can you please tell us as the only person on the planet to recognise Catalonia as a country, on what basis is Catalonia a country and when did it become a country?

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

A long post which doesnt say anything. It appears the only person on the planet that recognises Catalonia as a country is you. if you want to take the legal definition as opposed to the English dictionary, you become a state by being recognised by other states. No other state recognises Catalonia.

Again, this is your problem, you can't seem to tell the difference between sovereign states and countries. You become a sovereign entity/state by being rocognised by others, not a country, seeing as country is a broader term. So again, you are using a definition of the word state, not country, as I already supplied you with the meaning of a country. Your terminology is all over the place.

Scotland has no international recognition of being a sovereign state, but it's still a country.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The Statutes of autonomy only exist because the Spanish constitution allows it to exist. If you're so intent of using the English dictionary definition of the word Country, Catalonia currently has no autonomy and therefore no sovereignty i.e. It doesn't meet your own definition of a country.

Of course Catalonia has autonomy, seeing as it's granted under the Spanish constitution. Being on a hiatus does not knock the institutions down. Unless you believe Scotland weren't a country until devolution.

And Scotland is only a "constituent country" because the UK allows it to be. So Spanish law is now meaningless because it doesn't suit what you want? Regardless of whether Spain allows Catalonia to have a nationality is neither here nor there, all that's relevant is that it's a FACT that Catalonia does have a nationality. SO again, your OPINIAN is a higher authority than Spanish law and the actual meaning of words?

No one said Catalonia had sovereignty. Just like Scotland has none. You do not have to have sovereignty to be a country or a nation though.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Even the most ardent independence supporters will tell you Catalonia is not a country. So since Catalonia doesn't fit the definition of a country legally or literally. Can you please tell us as the only person on the planet to recognise Catalonia as a country, on what basis is Catalonia a country and when did it become a country?

Again, you are making up your own definitions. You need recognition to be a sovereign state, not to be a country.

Once again, we are to believe Celia Late Troop OPINION is a higher authority than what words actually mean, and Spanish law recognized by international entities such as the EU.

All that we've learned from the rubbish in your posts, is that you think "sovereign state" and "country" mean the same thing, they don't. If they did, they would be called the same thing. This is very basic stuff man, yet it seems you still can't get your head around it

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Again, this is your problem, you can't seem to tell the difference between sovereign states and countries. You become a sovereign entity/state by being rocognised by others, not a country, seeing as country is a broader term. So again, you are using a definition of the word state, not country, as I already supplied you with the meaning of a country. Your terminology is all over the place.
Scotland has no international recognition of being a state, but it's still a country.

It's not my problem because the only person on the planet that recognises Catalonia as a Country is you and it was your strict oxford definition of the word "nation" and "country" which you used to justify Catalonia being a country and when I pointed out that the word nation can have a broader meaning, you then said:

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So on one hand you say Catalonia is definitely not a nation, and now your back tracking saying it has various meanings? But I'm the one tripping over myself? Your delusion is hilarious mate.

In the last week alone, we know that the legal definition of words can have different meanings and interpretations to the literal meaning of the word e.g. consent. But in this case it has been you insisting that we use the literal oxford definition. It's a silly argument, and I don't like getting into trenches over things like this but since you've dragged the debate down to the level of whether words meet the literal definition then I guess that's where we have to go. Either way you cut it, by the legal or literal definition, Catalonia is neither a country, state or a nation.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Of course Catalonia has autonomy, seeing as it's granted under the Spanish constitution. Being on a hiatus does not knock the institutions down. Unless you believe Scotland weren't a country until devolution.

The point is that you are the one insisting on using the literal definition from the English dictionary, if we use your basis and take a literal interpretation as you've insisted, then at this point in time Catalonia does not have autonomy. Therefore your literal interpretation does not apply.

But it just begs the questions as to how long you will refuse to accept certain known facts i.e. that Catalonia is not a Country, state of nation that your posts have descended into arguing over the oxford meaning of the word country rather than argue the merits of independence. My guess is that you've nowhere else to go on this argument than to try and drag it through the mud in the hope that I'll just give up or stop engaging.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

And Scotland is only a "constituent country" because the UK allows it to be. So Spanish law is now meaningless because it doesn't suit what you want? Regardless of whether Spain allows Catalonia to have a nationality is neither here nor there, all that's relevant is that it's a FACT that Catalonia does have a nationality. SO again, your OPINIAN is a higher authority than Spanish law and the actual meaning of words?

So are you cherry picking the parts of the Spanish constitution you agree with? I thought you had a problem with the Spanish constitution because according to you it doesn't allow Catalans their independence? So which is it, you either agree with the Spanish constitution or you don't???

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No one said Catalonia had sovereignty. Just like Scotland has none. You do not have to have sovereignty to be a country or a nation though.

Again, you are making up your own definitions. You need recognition to be a sovereign state, not to be a country.

Once again, we are to believe Tickers OPINION is a higher authority than what words actually mean, and Spanish law recognized by international entities such as the EU.

All that we've learned from the rubbish in your posts, is that you think "sovereign state" and "country" mean the same thing, they don't. If they did, they would be called the same thing. This is very basic stuff man, yet it seems you still can't get your head around it

These are not my definitions or opinions, I'm just stating know facts i.e. that Catalonia is not a Country, nation or a state. Again you refer to Spanish law "recognised by international entities" but why don't you recognise the Spanish law that says the referendum was illegal and that Catalonia is part of Spain, or why don't you recognise the international entity that is the UN who tell us Catalans don't have a right to self determination? Who are the international entities that recognise Catalonia as a country, state or a nation? This is the problem with your argument in that you want everything both ways.

If it this is all so basic, can you explain why Catalonia is a country as you've stated here:

The Golden Miller wrote: »

But I've already stated Scotland is a country, just like Catalonia.

Based on what you've said, can you provide just one document, reference, link, back of a cornflake box, anything showing:

1. What constitution or law recognises Catalonia as a country?

2. what "international entities" recognise Catalonia as a country?

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

It's not my problem because the only person on the planet that recognises Catalonia as a Country is you and it was your strict oxford definition of the word "nation" and "country" which you used to justify Catalonia being a country and when I pointed out that the word nation can have a broader meaning, you then said:



In the last week alone, we know that the legal definition of words can have different meanings and interpretations to the literal meaning of the word e.g. consent. But in this case it has been you insisting that we use the literal oxford definition. It's a silly argument, and I don't like getting into trenches over things like this but since you've dragged the debate down to the level of whether words meet the literal definition then I guess that's where we have to go. Either way you cut it, by the legal or literal definition, Catalonia is neither a country, state or a nation.

So you accept the word nation can have a broader term, yet refuse to accept Catalan is a nationality under any criteria, despite being recognised as such by Spain?

Country like nation, has a broader meaning than just a "sovereign state". You can not seem the comprehend the difference between the two.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The point is that you are the one insisting on using the literal definition from the English dictionary, if we use your basis and take a literal interpretation as you've insisted, then at this point in time Catalonia does not have autonomy. Therefore your literal interpretation does not apply.

But it does apply. It's recognised under Spanish law. Unless clutching at pedantry is your thing. Fine, Catalonia is not a country as it does not have a government, therefore Scotland was not a country between losing it's sovereignty until devolution

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

But it just begs the questions as to how long you will refuse to accept certain known facts i.e. that Catalonia is not a Country, state of nation that your posts have descended into arguing over the oxford meaning of the word country rather than argue the merits of independence. My guess is that you've nowhere else to go on this argument than to try and drag it through the mud in the hope that I'll just give up or stop engaging.

The only problem here, is you believed "sovereign state" and "country" to mean one and the same thing, and now can't fathom that they do not mean the one thing.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So are you cherry picking the parts of the Spanish constitution you agree with? I thought you had a problem with the Spanish constitution because according to you it doesn't allow Catalans their independence? So which is it, you either agree with the Spanish constitution or you don't???

I could ask you that question. You back up your points with the Spanish constitution when it suits, but refuse to acknowledge it when it doesn't suit, i.e Catalan being a nationality. So you accept Catalan is a unique nationality? Or are you going to continue to cherry pick what parts of the Spanish constitution you choose to acknowledge?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

These are not my definitions or opinions, I'm just stating know facts i.e. that Catalonia is not a Country, nation or a state. Again you refer to Spanish law "recognised by international entities" but why don't you recognise the Spanish law that says the referendum was illegal and that Catalonia is part of Spain, or why don't you recognise the international entity that is the UN who tell us Catalans don't have a right to self determination? Who are the international entities that recognise Catalonia as a country, state or a nation? This is the problem with your argument in that you want everything both ways.

I do recongise the referendum was illegal. I never once said otherwise. The UN only states oppressed people definitely have the right to self-determination, not that they can be the only one's to seek it.

Yes, Spanish law does state Catalonia is part of Spain, just as it recognises Catalan nationality. So do you now accept Catalan people are a distinct nationality?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If it this is all so basic, can you explain why Catalonia is a country as you've stated here:



Based on what you've said, can you provide just one document, reference, link, back of a cornflake box, anything showing:

1. What constitution or law recognises Catalonia as a country?

2. what "international entities" recognise Catalonia as a country?

Again, you are confusing "country" with "sovereign state". Can you provide just one document, reference, link, back of a cornflake box, anything to show that to be a country you need international recognition that Scotland does not have for example? No international entities recognise either Scotland or Catalonia as a country, as you do not need international recognition to be a country, you need international recognition to be a sovereign state. If that is what you are referring to, then no, no international entities recognise Catalonia or Scotland as sovereign states because they are not sovereign states. They are simply devolved institutions with certain levels of autonomy, who's ruling sovereign body, the UK and Spain, recognises their distinct nationality within their borders

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So you accept the word nation can have a broader term, yet refuse to accept Catalan is a nationality under any criteria, despite being recognised as such by Spain?

Country like nation, has a broader meaning than just a "sovereign state". You can not seem the comprehend the difference between the two.

Of course I can but you were the one posting the oxford definitions and using them as the basis for your argument.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

But it does apply. It's recognised under Spanish law. Unless clutching at pedantry is your thing. Fine, Catalonia is not a country as it does not have a government, therefore Scotland was not a country between losing it's sovereignty until devolution.

Very tiresome going over this word salad of definitions between, country, state, nation and nationality. The term nationality you are referring to is not defined in the Spanish constitution. Although it is thought to refer to the autonomous regions, nowhere in the constitution does it refer to any of them regions by name. Therefore, you cannot surmise that the term nationality automatically makes catalonia a nation because

1. The terms is not legally defined
2. It makes no reference to any of the nationalities by name

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The only problem here, is you believed "sovereign state" and "country" to mean one and the same thing, and now can't fathom that they do not mean the one thing.

Doesn't matter what I believe, I'm agnostic about the terms but you keep quoting them and referring to the oxford dictionary. The point is that none of the terms you refer to are applicable to Catalonia.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I could ask you that question. You back up your points with the Spanish constitution when it suits, but refuse to acknowledge it when it doesn't suit, i.e Catalan being a nationality. So you accept Catalan is a unique nationality? Or are you going to continue to cherry pick what parts of the Spanish constitution you choose to acknowledge?

I've just explained that nowhere in the Spanish constitution is the term nationality defined or does it reference Catalonia. If you can find the references I'll stand corrected.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I do recongise the referendum was illegal. I never once said otherwise. The UN only states oppressed people definitely have the right to self-determination, not that they can be the only one's to seek it.

But how can the wealthiest people in Spain who have voted 7 times in the last 6 years be oppressed?

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Yes, Spanish law does state Catalonia is part of Spain, just as it recognises Catalan nationality. So do you now accept Catalan people are a distinct nationality?

As I said, if you can show me the text that names Catalans as a nationality in the Spanish constitution then I will stand corrected. Just to give you a heads up, the text doesn't exist so no point in wasting your time.

Also, although the term "nationality" was originally understood to refer to Galicia, the Basque Country and Catalonia. The term is currently used in reference to Aragon, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, the Canary Islands and Andalusia. The rest of the autonomous communities and commonly know as regions.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Again, you are confusing "country" with "sovereign state". Can you provide just one document, reference, link, back of a cornflake box, anything to show that to be a country you need international recognition that Scotland does not have for example? No international entities recognise either Scotland or Catalonia as a country, as you do not need international recognition to be a country, you need international recognition to be a sovereign state. If that is what you are referring to, then no, no international entities recognise Catalonia or Scotland as sovereign states because they are not sovereign states. They are simply devolved institutions with certain levels of autonomy, who's ruling sovereign body, the UK and Spain, recognises their distinct nationality within their borders

I don't even know what to respond here other than why are you so fixated on Scotland. Let it go, Catalonia is not a country, state of nation.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Very tiresome going over this word salad of definitions between, country, state, nation and nationality. The term nationality you are referring to is not defined in the Spanish constitution. Although it is thought to refer to the autonomous regions, nowhere in the constitution does it refer to any of them regions by name. Therefore, you cannot surmise that the term nationality automatically makes catalonia a nation because

1. The terms is not legally defined
2. It makes no reference to any of the nationalities by name

In the same way "constituent country" is not legally defined as a country?

So all we know is Spain does recognise nationalities, just not which one's? So we can then assume it recognises all the regions as nationalities, unless it states otherwise. So not only now can you not prove that Catalan is not a nationality, you cannot prove that any of them are not nationalities. So for the sake of argument, they are all nationalities, and even better, regions on top of that, all enshrined by the Spanish constitution.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

But how can the wealthiest people in Spain who have voted 7 times in the last 6 years be oppressed?

Unsurprisingly, you missed the point here. I never said Catalan people are oppressed. The UN states "oppressed people must have the right to self-determination", no where does it state non-oppressed people can't also seek self-determination. Unless you believe the UK broke UN protocol by allowing the non-oppressed Scottish to have self-determination? Understand the point now?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I don't even know what to respond here other than why are you so fixated on Scotland. Let it go, Catalonia is not a country, state of nation.

The reason I bring up Scotland is you believe it's a country and nation, while you believe Catalonia is neither. Scotland has no formal international recognition as being a country or nation. What Scotland has is recognition from it's sovereign government that it is a "constituent country", in the same way Spain's nations have recognition that they are nationalities by their sovereign government. Now we either accept the sovereign governments position on both or we accept neither, as to pick one and ignore the other is a contradictory position.

Also I'll be pedantic now. Above in the post you said "nationalities" is an ambiguous term and not not legally defined by Spain. In much the same way, "constituent country" is ambiguous and not a legally defined term by the UK. "Constituent" means "part of", while "country" could mean the UK i.e part of the UK. So now you can't even prove the UK designates it's constituents as actual countries, just see's them as "part of (constituent) the UK" (country). If Scotland was just a country, it would just be called a country, not a constituent country.

And when talking about actual recognition of countries, placing your own criteria of printing monopoly money or having an international jam making team means sweet fcuk all. We either accept the sovereign governments position that Scotland is a constituent country, and Catalan is a recognised nationality, or we accept neither.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Of course I can but you were the one posting the oxford definitions and using them as the basis for your argument.

You clearly can't comprehend the difference between a "country" and "sovereign state". You tried to take the criteria of what a sovereign state needs to be recognised, which is recognition from other sovereign states, and tried to pass that off as the "lawful definition of a country". So clearly you don't know the difference. The reason the word "state" is used instead of "country", is because they are two different words with different meanings, and "country" is not applicable here because it has a broader meaning than "sovereign state". For example, "country" can refer to non-sovereign state's such as Scotland and Catalonia, because the word means..... "a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory". You do not have to be independent to also be a country