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Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Let it go, Catalonia is not a country, state of nation.

    I don't know what " state of nation " could be :confused: , but there is an obvious lack of knowledge of the Catalonia close history , to say the least....

    To make it short, the Catalan Parliament , in their New Statute of Autonomy approved at the majority with the 2006 referendum, has declared that Catalonia is a nation, and the Spanish Constitutional Court, in 2010 accepted this point of the statute that defined Catalonia as a nation , as a cultural and historical term.


  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56



    I've just explained that nowhere in the Spanish constitution is the term nationality defined or does it reference Catalonia. If you can find the references I'll stand corrected.



    As I said, if you can show me the text that names Catalans as a nationality in the Spanish constitution then I will stand corrected. Just to give you a heads up, the text doesn't exist so no point in wasting your time.

    Once again, lack of knowledge about the basics...

    Extract of the " Estatuto de autonomia de Cataluna "

    " El Parlamento de Cataluña, recogiendo el sentimiento y la voluntad de la ciudadanía de Cataluña, ha definido de forma ampliamente mayoritaria a Cataluña como nación. La Constitución Española, en su artículo segundo, reconoce la realidad nacional de Cataluña como nacionalidad. "

    Article 2 of the Spanish Constitution 1978 :

    " La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas. "

    Hope you understand Spanish a bit.... :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,192 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Hope you understand Spanish a bit.... :rolleyes:

    Mod: Stick to English please.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,492 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Once again, lack of knowledge about the basics...

    Extract of the " Estatuto de autonomia de Cataluna "

    " El Parlamento de Cataluña, recogiendo el sentimiento y la voluntad de la ciudadanía de Cataluña, ha definido de forma ampliamente mayoritaria a Cataluña como nación. La Constitución Española, en su artículo segundo, reconoce la realidad nacional de Cataluña como nacionalidad. "

    Article 2 of the Spanish Constitution 1978 :

    " La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas. "

    Hope you understand Spanish a bit.... :rolleyes:

    Deleted my last post so as to not jump on your point bertie, so I hope you don't mind me providing the translation of the Statute so it's not ignored.

    Extract of the "Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia"

    " In reflection of the feelings and the wishes of the citizens of Catalonia, the Parliament of Catalonia has defined Catalonia as a nation by an ample majority. The Spanish Constitution, in its second Article, recognises the national reality of Catalonia as a nationality. "

    Article 2 of the Spanish Constitution 1978:

    " The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all. "


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Deleted my last post so as to not jump on your point bertie, so I hope you don't mind me providing the translation of the Statute so it's not ignored.

    Extract of the "Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia"

    " In reflection of the feelings and the wishes of the citizens of Catalonia, the Parliament of Catalonia has defined Catalonia as a nation by an ample majority. The Spanish Constitution, in its second Article, recognises the national reality of Catalonia as a nationality. "

    Article 2 of the Spanish Constitution 1978:

    " The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all. "

    And where does the constitution define a nationality or specifically name Catalonia? The whole time you were referring to the Spanish constitution and now you're pulling extracts from a completely separate document. I find it interesting that you want cherry pick which parts of the Spanish Constitution and Statute to try and support your argument when the reason why Catalonia has this crisis is because a group of politicians supported by a minority of people broke the rules of both the Constitution and the Statue of Autonomy. So why would you invoke those documents which they had total disregard for in an attempt to support your argument. Either you accept the Constitution and the Statute of you don't, again you seem to want everything both ways.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Once again, lack of knowledge about the basics...

    Extract of the " Estatuto de autonomia de Cataluna "

    " El Parlamento de Cataluña, recogiendo el sentimiento y la voluntad de la ciudadanía de Cataluña, ha definido de forma ampliamente mayoritaria a Cataluña como nación. La Constitución Española, en su artículo segundo, reconoce la realidad nacional de Cataluña como nacionalidad. "

    Article 2 of the Spanish Constitution 1978 :

    " La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas. "

    Hope you understand Spanish a bit.... :rolleyes:


    "La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española", patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas. "

    You accept the second half of the sentence but not the first part???


  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    "La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española", patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas. "

    You accept the second half of the sentence but not the first part???

    Since I don't have to swear allegiance to the Spanish Constitution, your question is out of context completely...

    I could say in the same way " You accept the first half of the sentence but not the second part " , but a discussion at this point is useless, since you have proved , once again in a ridiculous way, that you don't know at all what you are talking about... :rolleyes:


    Adéu !
    ( That mean " goodbye " in English... :p )


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Since I don't have to swear allegiance to the Spanish Constitution, your question is out of context completely...

    I could say in the same way " You accept the first half of the sentence but not the second part " , but a discussion at this point is useless, since you have proved , once again in a ridiculous way, that you don't know at all what you are talking about... :rolleyes:

    Adéu !
    ( That mean " goodbye " in English... :p )

    But you were the one who cited Article 2 of the Spanish constitution as the basis for Catalan nationality in your previous post???
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    [/B]Article 2 of the Spanish Constitution 1978 :

    " La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas. "

    Hope you understand Spanish a bit.... :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    In the same way "constituent country" is not legally defined as a country?

    So all we know is Spain does recognise nationalities, just not which one's? So we can then assume it recognises all the regions as nationalities, unless it states otherwise. So not only now can you not prove that Catalan is not a nationality, you cannot prove that any of them are not nationalities. So for the sake of argument, they are all nationalities, and even better, regions on top of that, all enshrined by the Spanish constitution.

    You're making the assumptions and the you ask me to disprove them? I don't know why you keep asking me to prove a negative, the onus is on you to prove that Catalonia is a nation, not for me to disprove something you believe to be true. That's like asking me to prove that God doesn't exist or prove that vitamin C does not cure cancer.
    Unsurprisingly, you missed the point here. I never said Catalan people are oppressed. The UN states "oppressed people must have the right to self-determination", no where does it state non-oppressed people can't also seek self-determination. Unless you believe the UK broke UN protocol by allowing the non-oppressed Scottish to have self-determination? Understand the point now?

    Bank Ki Moon, the General Sectary of UN, has told us that SD does not apply to Catalonia! How many times do you need to be told this?
    The prevention of illegal referendum was not an oppression of the right to self determination, it was stopping a minority of people trying to impose their own ideology on the majority of people in Catalonia by breaking their numerous laws and their own statue of autonomy and the Spanish constitution in the process. How do you not see the hypocrisy in crying that rights are being denied when they had no problem attempting to deny the majority of people in Catalonia those rights by holding illegal referendums and declaring the results legally binding and then making a UDI?
    The reason I bring up Scotland is you believe it's a country and nation, while you believe Catalonia is neither. Scotland has no formal international recognition as being a country or nation. What Scotland has is recognition from it's sovereign government that it is a "constituent country", in the same way Spain's nations have recognition that they are nationalities by their sovereign government. Now we either accept the sovereign governments position on both or we accept neither, as to pick one and ignore the other is a contradictory position.

    Also I'll be pedantic now. Above in the post you said "nationalities" is an ambiguous term and not not legally defined by Spain. In much the same way, "constituent country" is ambiguous and not a legally defined term by the UK. "Constituent" means "part of", while "country" could mean the UK i.e part of the UK. So now you can't even prove the UK designates it's constituents as actual countries, just see's them as "part of (constituent) the UK" (country). If Scotland was just a country, it would just be called a country, not a constituent country.

    And when talking about actual recognition of countries, placing your own criteria of printing monopoly money or having an international jam making team means sweet fcuk all. We either accept the sovereign governments position that Scotland is a constituent country, and Catalan is a recognised nationality, or we accept neither.

    You clearly can't comprehend the difference between a "country" and "sovereign state". You tried to take the criteria of what a sovereign state needs to be recognised, which is recognition from other sovereign states, and tried to pass that off as the "lawful definition of a country". So clearly you don't know the difference. The reason the word "state" is used instead of "country", is because they are two different words with different meanings, and "country" is not applicable here because it has a broader meaning than "sovereign state". For example, "country" can refer to non-sovereign state's such as Scotland and Catalonia, because the word means..... "a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory". You do not have to be independent to also be a country

    I couldn't make sense of that last paragraph. TLDR. Just another word salad of country, nation, state etc etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    The former French PM, Manuel Valls, looks like being C's candidate for Mayor of Barcelona:

    https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20180420/manuel-valls-estudia-oferta-ciudadanos-candidato-alcaldia-barcelona-6771272


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  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    The point of view of Pablo Echenique , MEP from Podemos ( non Catalan, non independentist ) about this news :

    " Manuel Valls was the creator of the most brutal labor reform under the orders of Hollande. Not only he did help to destroy the rights of the workers, they also f.cked up the French Socialist Party and through gasoline on the xenophobia of Marine Le Pen.

    Perfect for Ciudadanos."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Valls appears to think the independence movement has been killed off by the combined efforts of the Spanish monarchy and the EU Bureaucracy
    In an interview with the Spanish public broadcaster TVE, Valls said the secessionist movement had stalled, leaving Catalonia a fractured place. “The separatist project has been killed off by the response from King Felipe and Europe, but the [secessionist] ideas will carry on and the process will be a long one because society is very divided,” he said.
    Valls was France’s prime minister between 2014 and 2016. He staged an unsuccessful bid to become the presidential candidate of the French Socialist party at the 2017 election.
    Like Macron he appears to have ditched the French Socialist party and embraced something else; a sort of centre-right liberal elitism characteristic of Brussels mentality. These people denigrate nationalism. They despise democracy, which they call populism. They crave centralised EU power, and they carefully cultivate the right connections to ensure that they themselves are close to the heart of that power.

    Its a strange new mix that combines the internationalism of 20th century socialism, with the elitism of 19th century monarchy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    recedite wrote: »
    Valls appears to think the independence movement has been killed off by the combined efforts of the Spanish monarchy and the EU Bureaucracy
    Like Macron he appears to have ditched the French Socialist party and embraced something else; a sort of centre-right liberal elitism characteristic of Brussels mentality. These people denigrate nationalism. They despise democracy, which they call populism. They crave centralised EU power, and they carefully cultivate the right connections to ensure that they themselves are close to the heart of that power.

    Its a strange new mix that combines the internationalism of 20th century socialism, with the elitism of 19th century monarchy.

    Somewhat of a tradition of same in Catalan politics - there was a politician called Lerroux between the 1910s and 1930s who started out as vaguely leftist, before morphing over time into a right-wing centralist:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro_Lerroux


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Somewhat of a tradition of same in Catalan politics -
    It seems he stood out enough from the ordinary to be allocated his own new word; Lerrouxism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Interesting poll from yesterday , from the ( unionist Spanish ) newspaper El Periodico :


    Survey: Support for a referendum in Catalonia grows in Spain

    Spanish : 47 % of people agreed to allow a consultation of the Catalans about their independence.
    Catalonia : 79 % of people are asking the same.


    65% of the Spanish are asking for a dialogue solution for Catalonia , when only 30 % of them see the solution in the actions of the courts of justice ( what is currently happening )

    https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20180422/encuesta-cataluna-referendum-independencia-6774152

    Automatic translation :

    https://translate.google.ie/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elperiodico.com%2Fes%2Fpolitica%2F20180422%2Fencuesta-cataluna-referendum-independencia-6774152&edit-text=


  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Some reading in the Irish Times from last Monday .

    " I am a Catalan writer and I want independence for my country " , by Eduard Márquez

    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/i-am-a-catalan-writer-and-i-want-independence-for-my-country-1.3470951


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Some reading in the Irish Times from last Monday .

    " I am a Catalan writer and I want independence for my country " , by Eduard Márquez

    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/i-am-a-catalan-writer-and-i-want-independence-for-my-country-1.3470951
    The result was clear: more than ninety percent “YES” in favour of independence and more than nine hundred people injured.

    Pure nonsense. Do we really need to go over the details of the fake news illegal referendum again?


  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Talking about " fake news" , an interesting find in the UK Parliament website.

    It's a report from Transparency Toolkit, a US based non-profit organization, and talks about the treatment of information of the Spanish press ( El Pais mainly ) at the time of the Catalonia referendum.

    13 pages of facts, following this menu :

    1. Failure to Accurately Use Digital Analytics Tools
    2. Dubious Methodology
    3. One-Sided Analysis
    4. Exaggeration of Influence of Bots and Trolls
    5. Careless Analysis of Data from Questionable Sources
    6. Overstating the Influence of Assange on RT and Sputnik

    Part of the conclusion is the following :

    " In some cases, there may be a temptation to use groundless allegations of fake news to support political arguments. Disinformation is not a technique unique to Russia, Venezuela, or any one country or group. It is necessary to explore how claims of fake news can themselves be used as a manipulative tactic and understand the impact this has on society "

    Full report available here :

    http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/fake-news/written/80989.pdf


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Talking about " fake news" , an interesting find in the UK Parliament website.

    It's a report from Transparency Toolkit, a US based non-profit organization, and talks about the treatment of information of the Spanish press ( El Pais mainly ) at the time of the Catalonia referendum.

    13 pages of facts, following this menu :

    1. Failure to Accurately Use Digital Analytics Tools
    2. Dubious Methodology
    3. One-Sided Analysis
    4. Exaggeration of Influence of Bots and Trolls
    5. Careless Analysis of Data from Questionable Sources
    6. Overstating the Influence of Assange on RT and Sputnik

    Part of the conclusion is the following :

    " In some cases, there may be a temptation to use groundless allegations of fake news to support political arguments. Disinformation is not a technique unique to Russia, Venezuela, or any one country or group. It is necessary to explore how claims of fake news can themselves be used as a manipulative tactic and understand the impact this has on society "

    Full report available here :

    http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/fake-news/written/80989.pdf

    These are not facts but just more rambling and distraction from the real issue. Transparency Toolkit, a non profit organisation who nobody has ever heard of makes a submission to the UK parliament (which anyone can do) and we are supposed to take this submission as Gospel? This submission relates to the newspaper El Pais, which is a left wing publication.

    More distraction and fake news by pro independence advocates trying to bend over backwards and trawl the internet to come up with anything they can find to distract from the issue of their failed xenophobic attempt at nation building.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    @Tickers and bertie 56. If you can't have a discussion in a civil manner, I'll ban you both from posting in this thread. Stop taking swipes at each other.

    Also, let's ease up on the "fake news" thing too. Characterising legit news outlets or other people's posts as fake news is a form of trolling.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    These are not facts but just more rambling and distraction from the real issue. Transparency Toolkit, a non profit organisation who nobody has ever heard of makes a submission to the UK parliament (which anyone can do) and we are supposed to take this submission as Gospel? This submission relates to the newspaper El Pais, which is a left wing publication.

    More distraction and fake news by pro independence advocates trying to bend over backwards and trawl the internet to come up with anything they can find to distract from the issue of their failed xenophobic attempt at nation building.

    On a tangential point, El Pais has largely moved towards support for the PP in recent years, so El Diario has become the main left-wing media outlet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Just to put the Catalan independence movement in perspective.

    We've just had a referendum in which the Yes side won a majority, now imagine if the No side decided that they didn't like the result of the referendum and wanted to hold another referendum.

    Since they don't have enough TD's in the Dail to pass any legislation they decided that they would draft a piece of legislation that says they don't need a majority and held a vote in the Dail and passed the legislation among themselves because the majority of TD's walked out in protest.

    The No side the states that they now had the legal basis to hold a referendum so decided to put the wheels in motion by ordering ballot boxes, setting up websites, organising a day for which No voters could attend the polling station, on the day of the vote the No supporters slept in the polling stations, took custody of the ballot boxes, kept no official census and zero democratic process.

    On the day of the referendum, since the only people who will turn out would be the No side, the referendum passes with an 80% majority and they now declare that the 8th amendment is reinstated.

    If you consider that hypothetical scenario and apply that to what happened in Catalonia, it will give you an idea of how ridiculous the claims of the independence movement are especially when they try and argue that their democratic rights are being oppressed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Idle query. Have the Catalan's followed our lead in letting a Citizens Assembly define the parameters of the referendum?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Idle query. Have the Catalan's followed our lead in letting a Citizens Assembly define the parameters of the referendum?

    The parameters are already set out the Catalan Statutes of Autonomy which was drafted by... Catalans.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    The parameters are already set out the Catalan Statutes of Autonomy which was drafted by... Catalans.

    A bit like the parameters our "Citizens" Assembly being established by ... Yes politicians.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    A bit like the parameters our "Citizens" Assembly being established by ... Yes politicians.

    Not quite because the Catalan government is made up of a coalition of independence supporters. Before that Carles Puidgemont's party held the presidency in Catalonia for 23 years.

    The Catalan Parliament has been stacked with pro Independence advocates for years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    A bit like our Dail is stacked with YES-ministers?

    But in this instance the majority of people are in favour of remaining part of Spain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Just to put the Catalan independence movement in perspective.

    We've just had a referendum in which the Yes side won a majority, now imagine if the No side decided that they didn't like the result of the referendum and wanted to hold another referendum.

    Since they don't have enough TD's in the Dail to pass any legislation they decided that they would draft a piece of legislation that says they don't need a majority and held a vote in the Dail and passed the legislation among themselves because the majority of TD's walked out in protest.

    The No side the states that they now had the legal basis to hold a referendum so decided to put the wheels in motion by ordering ballot boxes, setting up websites, organising a day for which No voters could attend the polling station, on the day of the vote the No supporters slept in the polling stations, took custody of the ballot boxes, kept no official census and zero democratic process.

    On the day of the referendum, since the only people who will turn out would be the No side, the referendum passes with an 80% majority and they now declare that the 8th amendment is reinstated.

    If you consider that hypothetical scenario and apply that to what happened in Catalonia, it will give you an idea of how ridiculous the claims of the independence movement are especially when they try and argue that their democratic rights are being oppressed.


    " Good" try, but flawed ...


    Catalonia didn't have a referendum where the " Yes to stay in Spain " won.
    Ireland did have a referendum where the " Yes " won.



    What you call " No " in Catalonia is the majority.
    What you call " No " in Ireland is the minority .


    I'll pass on the details " no official census and zero democratic process " , " majority of TD's walked out in protest :D "





    If you really want to see similarities, here we go :


    - A majority of Ireland population wants to repeal the 8th.

    - 80% of Ireland population wants a referendum about it.

    - The President and part of the Govt refuses, arguing that " the 8th is THE LAW, it is written in the CONSTITUTION that everybody voted for , and we don't want to changed it."

    - Nevertheless, a non-authorized referendum is organised .

    - Pro-referundum people orders ballot boxes, set- up websites, organise a day for which every voter could attend the polling station, on the day of the vote the pro-referundum supporters sleep in the polling stations to protect them and the ballot boxes, and organise the vote with an official census and within a democratic process ( everybody registered in the polling census is able to vote, internationals observers are present ).

    - Seeing that, the President and the Gvt send the Garda beating the voters, using non-authorized weapons, and hurting 1000+ of them, your Granny included ...
    In Dublin, Cork, Donegal, Mullingar, etc....

    It didn't happened this way in Ireland because , luckily for us, we are in a democracy that works.


    Ask yourself why it did happen this way with Spain....:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    The Catalan government is made up of a coalition of independence supporters. Before that Carles Puidgemont's party held the presidency in Catalonia for 23 years.

    The Catalan Parliament has been stacked with pro Independence advocates for years.

    But in this instance the majority of people are in favour of remaining part of Spain.


    23 years in power as an independentist party , and this with a " majority" of people voting against you... Impressive achievement !




    Reminder :

    2017 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President.
    2015 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President.
    2012 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President.
    2010 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President
    ...

    Independence referendums ( 2009 , 2011, 2014, 2017 ) : Independentism won.
    ...Etc...
    ...Etc...




    So, " a majority of people are in favour of remaining part of Spain " ?


    Really ??? :rolleyes:


    By the way, when was the last time the unionism won something in Catalonia ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    On another note, looks like Rajoy will be gone by Friday, with the PNV reportedly backing the motion of no confidence.


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