Catalan independence referendum, 2017

bertie 56

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

On another note, looks like Rajoy will be gone by Friday, with the PNV reportedly backing the motion of no confidence.

PNV said they will meet tomorrow morning to decide about that.
They've backed up Rajoy recently for the budget, despide their promise to keep pressure on Rajoy about the lift of Art.155 in Catalonia, so I wouldn't trust them much on that one neither ...
I'm pretty sure PNV have everything to loose with C's instead of the PP in terms of autonomy/budget for Basque Country ...


But , with PNV help or not, a good clean-up in Spain is more than welcome anyway !!! ...:D

bertie 56

For those interested by this motion of no confidence, here is a nice tool to see different possible combinations .

Censuròmetre de TV3 i Catalunya Ràdio

( scroll down until the interactive hemicircle, and click " Si ", " Abs " or " No " according to the parties ).


http://www.ccma.cat/324/calcula-els-possibles-resultats-de-la-mocio-amb-el-censurometre-de-tv3-i-catalunya-radio/noticia/2858581/#

Chips Lovell

Could be some unexpected movement on this issue. Rajoy is gone. Pedro Sanchez is now prime minister, with the two main Catalan parties backing the vote of no confidence. Sanchez is saying he's interested in dialogue.

EagererBeaver

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Could be some unexpected movement on this issue. Rajoy is gone. Pedro Sanchez is now prime minister, with the two main Catalan parties backing the vote of no confidence. Sanchez is saying he's interested in dialogue.

It'll be minor enough as Sanchez's position is so weak to start out. I'd be worried about him trying to overreach instead of calling elections.

Dialogue however, is always good.

An Ciarraioch

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Could be some unexpected movement on this issue. Rajoy is gone. Pedro Sanchez is now prime minister, with the two main Catalan parties backing the vote of no confidence. Sanchez is saying he's interested in dialogue.

It'll be minor enough as Sanchez's position is so weak to start out. I'd be worried about him trying to overreach instead of calling elections.

Dialogue however, is always good.

The Catalans know full well that he'll only last months, so presumably will prioritise a general amnesty, with an all-party committee on constitutional reform as the secondary goal.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

" Good" try, but flawed ...

Catalonia didn't have a referendum where the " Yes to stay in Spain " won.
Ireland did have a referendum where the " Yes " won.

What you call " No " in Catalonia is the majority.
What you call " No " in Ireland is the minority .

I'll pass on the details " no official census and zero democratic process " , " majority of TD's walked out in protest "

If you really want to see similarities, here we go :

- A majority of Ireland population wants to repeal the 8th.

- 80% of Ireland population wants a referendum about it.

- The President and part of the Govt refuses, arguing that " the 8th is THE LAW, it is written in the CONSTITUTION that everybody voted for , and we don't want to changed it."

- Nevertheless, a non-authorized referendum is organised .

- Pro-referundum people orders ballot boxes, set- up websites, organise a day for which every voter could attend the polling station, on the day of the vote the pro-referundum supporters sleep in the polling stations to protect them and the ballot boxes, and organise the vote with an official census and within a democratic process ( everybody registered in the polling census is able to vote, internationals observers are present ).

- Seeing that, the President and the Gvt send the Garda beating the voters, using non-authorized weapons, and hurting 1000+ of them, your Granny included ...
In Dublin, Cork, Donegal, Mullingar, etc....

It didn't happened this way in Ireland because , luckily for us, we are in a democracy that works.

Ask yourself why it did happen this way with Spain....:rolleyes:

You had a referendum in Catalonia and over 80% of the citizens voted in favour of the Spanish constitution. Again you completely miss the point and want to have everything both ways. The fundamental difference between the referendum in Ireland and the failed referendum in Catalonia was that in Ireland's case the rule of law was followed and the democratic process was upheld, whereas the independence parties in Catalonia couldn't pass legislation to call a referendum so they decided to make up their own rules as they go along.

In Ireland, we had a citizens assembly and Fine Gael had a democratic majority with the support of Fianna Fail to pass legislation to hold a referendum. The rule of law was followed every step along the way. Why do you find this so difficult to understand? The independence parties in Catalonia are unable to pass legislation in their own Parliament because they don't have the democratic majority so they attempt to make up their own rules and hold illegal referendums.

If you want to change that constitution or have a referendum on Independence then you need to pass legislation in your own parliament which Independence parties cannot do and which is a point which you seem to find very difficult to understand.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You had a referendum in Catalonia and over 80% of the citizens voted in favour of the Spanish constitution.

Your explanation clearly doesn't make sense .
It's exactly the same as saying " no rights to make a referendum on the 8th Amendment in Ireland since the majority of the population did vote for approving the Irish Constitution "



The referendum in Spain was 40 years ago, to approve a Constitution that did permit the country to go out of fascism and make his own way towards democracy.
Nothing to do with the 2017 independence referendum in Catalonia...

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

. The fundamental difference between the referendum in Ireland and the failed referendum in Catalonia was that in Ireland's case the rule of law was followed and the democratic process was upheld, whereas the independence parties in Catalonia couldn't pass legislation to call a referendum so they decided to make up their own rules as they go along.

In Ireland, we had a citizens assembly and Fine Gael had a democratic majority with the support of Fianna Fail to pass legislation to hold a referendum. The rule of law was followed every step along the way. Why do you find this so difficult to understand? The independence parties in Catalonia are unable to pass legislation in their own Parliament because they don't have the democratic majority so they attempt to make up their own rules and hold illegal referendums.

No. Once again... The Catalan Parliament didn't " make up their own rules " .
We talked about it already and I showed you proves of that multiples times...


But I acknowledge that you see now a " fundamental difference " between the referendum in Ireland and Catalonia. Once again, we had here a democratic process because the Irish State had a democratic answer to a political problem .
Not a police/military repression , judicial repression answer like we see in Spain.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If you want to change that constitution or have a referendum on Independence then you need to pass legislation in your own parliament which Independence parties cannot do and which is a point which you seem to find very difficult to understand.

Still ?

No. Once again... It is not that it's " difficult to understand ", it's just that it is not the reality of things.

We talked about it already and I showed you proves of that multiples times...




By the way, Spain has now a Prime Minister that recognize Catalonia as a Nation.;)
.
.
.
.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Your explanation clearly doesn't make sense .
It's exactly the same as saying " no rights to make a referendum on the 8th Amendment in Ireland since the majority of the population did vote for approving the Irish Constitution "

This makes no sense. The reason the majority of people in Ireland were able to vote in a referendum on the 8th amendment was because the government was able to pass legislation in the Dail by getting the required democratic majority to hold a referendum. This is something that Independence parties couldn't achieve because they cannot get the required majority in their own Parliament.

bertie 56 wrote: »

The referendum in Spain was 40 years ago, to approve a Constitution that did permit the country to go out of fascism and make his own way towards democracy.
Nothing to do with the 2017 independence referendum in Catalonia...


No. Once again... The Catalan Parliament didn't " make up their own rules " .
We talked about it already and I showed you proves of that multiples times...

The last referendum on Abortion in Ireland was in 1983 which was almost 40 years ago. Just because the last referendum in Catalonia was 40 years ago does not give a minority of people to decide to hold their own illegal referendum because they decide the rules don't suit them anymore.
Catalan citizens have the right to a referendum as outlined in the constitution and in the Catalan Statute of Autonomy that requires a 2/3 majority in the Catalan Parliament to hold any referendum on Independence. What they don't have a right to do is make up a law that says they only need a 50% majority and then attempt to pass that law with just a 50% majority. If that logic was to be accepted than any political party in theory could make up a law that says they only need a 25% majority, or a 10% majority to change any law which doesn't suit them.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

(...) Independence parties couldn't achieve because they cannot get the required majority in their own Parliament.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

(...) a minority of people to decide to hold their own illegal referendum because they decide the rules don't suit them anymore.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Catalan citizens have the right to a referendum as outlined in the constitution and in the Catalan Statute of Autonomy that requires a 2/3 majority in the Catalan Parliament to hold any referendum on Independence.

Reading again and again these same misstatements for the last six months, despite having explained and proved each of them wrong, I can only agree with what this Board moderator and this Board administrator told you already ...


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106784854&postcount=7410


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106784563&postcount=7385

bertie 56

More interesting than all that, here is an interview from Elsa Artadi, the new Catalan minister .
At the menu, her view about the new Spanish government, the future meeting between Torra and Sanchez, the priority on dialogue from the Catalan government, the future of the political prisoners, the ( once again ) boycott of dialogue from C's, the right to self determination of the Catalan people, and the building of the Republic.


In English here :
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/artadi-interview-independence-flexibly_276774_102.html

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Reading again and again these same misstatements for the last six months, despite having explained and proved each of them wrong, I can only agree with what this Board moderator and this Board administrator told you already ...


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106784854&postcount=7410


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106784563&postcount=7385

Those are all statements of facts, you haven't disproved anything other than repeat your own misstatements. I've directed you the article 56 of the Statute of Autonomy that requires a 2/3 majority and you continue to ignore this basic fact.

I haven't been suspended from this thread, you have.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Those are all statements of facts, you haven't disproved anything other than repeat your own misstatements. I've directed you the article 56 of the Statute of Autonomy that requires a 2/3 majority and you continue to ignore this basic fact.

Once again and again, the Catalan Parliament didn't need a 2/3 majority to pass the referendum law, as you wrongly think and wrongly spread the idea .


Another try :

The Catalan laws permit the adoption of a law in "lectura unica " ( single reading ) , with the majority of the Parliament vote.
The referendum law has been done this way . Fully legally.


As a prove of this legality, the Spanish Constitutional Court in Madrid , which is the " supreme interpreter of the Spanish Constitution as says Wiki " did validate this referendum law as legal at the unanimity of his members, the 29th of November 2017.


So, once again, the referendum law was legal regarding Catalan laws and Spanish laws.


One of the multiple news paper report on this decision ( link already given few months ago :rolleyes: ) :

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171129/433288859703/tc-avala-via-expres-parlament-cataluna.html




You can read the Spanish Constitutional Court decision here :
https://www.tribunalconstitucional.es/NotasDePrensaDocumentos/NP_2017_074/2017-4334STC.pdf




And if you think that the Spanish Constitutional Court has missed a point , you can contact them here :

C/Domenico Scarlatti, 6
28003 - Madrid
España
Teléfono: (34) 915 508 000

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I've directed you the article 56 of the Statute of Autonomy .

I let the Boarders make their own opinion on this one ( from last December... )
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105569328&postcount=1532

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I haven't been suspended from this thread, you have.

Yes, you are right . I got one day ban for having quoting a sentence of the charter, in this post :

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105558250&postcount=1518

The Golden Miller

bertie 56 wrote: »

Once again and again, the Catalan Parliament didn't need a 2/3 majority to pass the referendum law, as you wrongly think and wrongly spread the idea .


Another try :

The Catalan laws permit the adoption of a law in "lectura unica " ( single reading ) , with the majority of the Parliament vote.
The referendum law has been done this way . Fully legally.


As a prove of this legality, the Spanish Constitutional Court in Madrid , which is the " supreme interpreter of the Spanish Constitution as says Wiki " did validate this referendum law as legal at the unanimity of his members, the 29th of November 2017.


So, once again, the referendum law was legal regarding Catalan laws and Spanish laws.


One of the multiple news paper report on this decision ( link already given few months ago :rolleyes: ) :

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171129/433288859703/tc-avala-via-expres-parlament-cataluna.html




You can read the Spanish Constitutional Court decision here :
https://www.tribunalconstitucional.es/NotasDePrensaDocumentos/NP_2017_074/2017-4334STC.pdf




And if you think that the Spanish Constitutional Court has missed a point , you can contact them here :

C/Domenico Scarlatti, 6
28003 - Madrid
España
Teléfono: (34) 915 508 000







I let the Boarders make their own opinion on this one ( from last December... )
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105569328&postcount=1532








Yes, you are right . I got one day ban for having quoting a sentence of the charter, in this post :

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105558250&postcount=1518

It' funny engaging with tickers' gibberish now and again for the laugh, but should we all just agree to ignore his posts from now on and let him talk to himself?

An Ciarraioch

Meanwhile, just when you thought Basque Country devolution had been settled:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-44431122?__twitter_impression=true

bertie 56

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Meanwhile, just when you thought Basque Country devolution had been settled:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-44431122?__twitter_impression=true

Meanwhile, just when you thought Basque Country devolution had been settled ( Part 2 ) :

Some PP members are now talking about blocking the Basque Country part of the 2018 Budget they did defend and vote few weeks ago . Having the majority in the Senate, they are thinking to use that position to get revenge from the 5 PNV votes against them that was decisive in the ousting of Rajoy and Co.
( Sanchez did say publicly to PNV that he will maintain the Budget 2018 draft ).



Talking back about the 200km long civic demonstration, just a reminder that these peaceful demonstrations have existed since a good while now.

The only problem is that ETA was in the front news , and peaceful actions neglected from journalists or worse, associated with terrorism (" todo es ETA" ...).


Something that is shaking the Basque society now too is the result of the Altsasu Case trial . It is hard to interpret the sentences otherwise than seeing a far too-heavy punishment and a warning from the State.
( 51 MEP from 15 different countries expressed their support towards the accused people in July last year )





( Altsasu Case : briefly for those who don't know the story:

In Oct 16, 2 plain clothes Guardia Civil were molested in a bar of a small town in Basque Country by a group of young lads associated with the abertzale movement ( left Basque nationalism ) . One Civil Guard got a broken ankle in the fight.

After more than a year and a half of preventive jail , the youngsters trial opened under the charges of " terrorism ", which could bring the lads in jail up to 62 ( sixty-two ) years .

At the end, the Court dismissed the " terrorism " charges but maintain the other charges.
The sentence is the following : 8 young lads in jail , from 2 years to 13 ( thirteen ) years , with a total of 79 years of jail.
For a bar brawl...


Just to put this sentence in perspective : the trial of " La Manada" one month before ( April 18 ) , where 5 men ( one is Guardia Civil, one is an Army member ) has been found guilty of a collective sexual abuse of a 18 years old girl :

They got 9 ( nine ) years of jail...
.
.
.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Once again and again, the Catalan Parliament didn't need a 2/3 majority to pass the referendum law, as you wrongly think and wrongly spread the idea .

Another try :

The Catalan laws permit the adoption of a law in "lectura unica " ( single reading ) , with the majority of the Parliament vote.
The referendum law has been done this way . Fully legally.

As a prove of this legality, the Spanish Constitutional Court in Madrid , which is the " supreme interpreter of the Spanish Constitution as says Wiki " did validate this referendum law as legal at the unanimity of his members, the 29th of November 2017.

So, once again, the referendum law was legal regarding Catalan laws and Spanish laws.


One of the multiple news paper report on this decision ( link already given few months ago :rolleyes: ) :

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171129/433288859703/tc-avala-via-expres-parlament-cataluna.html

You can read the Spanish Constitutional Court decision here :
https://www.tribunalconstitucional.es/NotasDePrensaDocumentos/NP_2017_074/2017-4334STC.pdf

Yet again you are trying to completely mislead people in the hope of posting a random article on a completely separate issue in a different language in the hope that people won't understand it and take your word.
The article and link you posted to lavanguardia relates to the speed at which legislation was passing through the Catalan Parliaments, it has nothing to do with the issues we were discussing in terms of Article 56 and the Spanish Constitution. A totally disingenuous attempt to try and prove a point.

The relvelant legislation is Article 56 of the Catlana Statute of Autonomy which you can find the legal text of here https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/48089.pdf
That is the first hurdle that independence advocates need to overcome in which is get a 2/3 majority in their own Parliament as per Article 56. You can keep posting links to random articles from all over the internet about oppression and repression and impartiality of the judicial system. Do you not see the hypocrisy in your posts where you say that the Constitutional Court that deemed the referendum to be illegal, you are now saying has ruled in your favour. The same Constitutional Court which you also say has no impartiality? In previous posts you quote the Spanish Constitution where you think it recognises Catalonia as a nation but choose to ignore the same part of the Constitution that recognises Spain as an indissoluble Country and say that you have no allegiance to the Constitution? You continue on and on with these contradictions.

Case in point as follows:

bertie 56 wrote: »

And if you think that the Spanish Constitutional Court has missed a point , you can contact them here :

C/Domenico Scarlatti, 6
28003 - Madrid
España
Teléfono: (34) 915 508 000

Again you always want to cite the Constitutional Court when you think it suits you but then say you are being oppressed when the facts don't stack up.

It was the constitutional Court that determined that the Catalan referendum was illegal

here Spanish constitutional court suspends law on Catalan referendum - FT.com

Here Court blocks independence referendum - BBC News

here Why the referendum on Catalan independence is illegal - The Economist

Here Spain's top court has officially ruled that Catalonia's disputed independence referendum was illegal because a regional law that backed it was against Spain's constitution.

As I've asked numerous times, either you accept the findings on the Spanish Constitutional Court and the Constitution or your don't but you can't have everything both ways.


"And if you think that the Spanish Constitutional Court has missed a point, you can contact them here

C/Domenico Scarlatti, 6
28003 - Madrid
España
Teléfono: (34) 915 508 000"

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

More interesting than all that, here is an interview from Elsa Artadi, the new Catalan minister .
At the menu, her view about the new Spanish government, the future meeting between Torra and Sanchez, the priority on dialogue from the Catalan government, the future of the political prisoners, the ( once again ) boycott of dialogue from C's, the right to self determination of the Catalan people, and the building of the Republic.


In English here :
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/artadi-interview-independence-flexibly_276774_102.html

For the umpteenth time, the right to self determination does not apply to Catalonia. On your interpretation of self determination that would mean in an independent Catalonia, the majority of citizens living in Catalonia would have a right to self determination as Spaniards.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It' funny engaging with tickers' gibberish now and again for the laugh, but should we all just agree to ignore his posts from now on and let him talk to himself?

Which translates as, I couldn't argue with them on the facts so I'll attack them personally instead


Everything I've said has been a statement of fact, I'm sorry these facts don't agree with your confirmation bias.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Which translates as, I couldn't argue with them on the facts so I'll attack them personally instead


Everything I've said has been a statement of fact, I'm sorry these facts don't agree with your confirmation bias.

:pac::pac::pac:

Like the FACT you said Catalonia wasn't a nation, despite Spain accepting the Catalan statute that said it was?

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac:

Like the FACT you said Catalonia wasn't a nation, despite Spain accepting the Catalan statute that said it was?

We've been over this ad naseaum and you ran out of words to try and make a nation, state, country sound more intelligent and gave up. The Constitution supersedes any Catalan Statute, which at this point in time has zero authority because of Article 155 and even if Article 155 wasn't activated the Constitution still presides and nowhere in the Constitution does it refer to Catalonia by name as a nation. They're called Autonomous Communities which only exist because the Constitution allows them to exist. Sorry.

Like other posters, you want to cherry pick the parts of the Statute and Constitution that suit your side of the argument.

Next.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

We've been over this ad naseaum and you ran out of words to try and make a nation, state, country sound more intelligent and gave up. The Constitution supersedes any Catalan Statute, which at this point in time has zero authority because of Article 155 and even if Article 155 wasn't activated the Constitution still presides and nowhere in the Constitution does it refer to Catalonia by name as a nation. They're called Autonomous Communities which only exist because the Constitution allows them to exist. Sorry.

Like other posters, you want to cherry pick the parts of the Statute and Constitution that suit your side of the argument.

Next.

Yes, we were over it and you clearly don't know what any of those words mean. As for cherry picking what to accept in the constitution, you're hardly one to talk, are you? You see, I don't actually give one fcuk about the Spanish constitution, I've simply been debating this on your terms. YOU spent the thread referring to the constitution to back up your assertion's when it suited, then ignore the constitution when it doesn't.


The statute is enshrined by the constitution, which specifies Catalonia as a nation. You know what the word enshrined means? It's not a case of one superseding the other, they exist in tandem, one an extension of the other, officially accepted Spanish documents. Unless you now fail to recognise any official Spanish document? So you accept Catalonia is a nation, yes or no? Or if you want to be tedious on semantics over a temporary situation, do you accept Catalonia was a nation during a point in which you said it wasn't i.e last year, as a statute enshrined by the constitution accepted it was?

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Yes, we were over it and you clearly don't know what any of those words mean. As for cherry picking what to accept in the constitution, you're hardly one to talk, are you? You see, I don't actually give one fcuk about the Spanish constitution, I've simply been debating this on your terms. YOU spent the thread referring to the constitution to back up your assertion's when it suited, then ignore the constitution when it doesn't.


The statute is enshrined by the constitution, which specifies Catalonia as a nation. You know what the word enshrined means? It's not a case of one superseding the other, they exist in tandem, one an extension of the other, officially accepted Spanish documents. Unless you now fail to recognise any official Spanish document? So you accept Catalonia is a nation, yes or no? Or if you want to be tedious on semantics over a temporary situation, do you accept Catalonia was a nation during a point in which you said it wasn't i.e last year, as a statute enshrined by the constitution accepted it was?

Are we really going to do this again? If so, please show me where the Constitution specifies Catalonia as a nation. By specify, that means explicitly refer to Catalonia.

In the first sentence he says he doesn't give a fcuk about the Spanish Constitution and in the next sentence refers to the Constitution to try and prove a point.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Are we really going to do this again? If so, please show me where the Constitution specifies Catalonia as a nation. By specify, that means explicitly refer to Catalonia.

Why does the constitution need to, if it enshrines a statute that does, which is an extension of the constitution?

Unless you recognise no court rulings on anything as each case is not specifically referred to in the constitution? Or maybe you believe the Spanish court and institutions do carry legitimacy as they are ENSHRINED by the constitution? I must ask again, do you know what the word means?

If the constitution carry's legitimacy as it's recognised by the Spanish institutions, why do all official documents not carry legitimacy if recognized by the Spanish institutions? Are you discarding the legitimacy of the Spanish institutions, which recognise the constitution and other documents? We either recognise them all, or none, unless the Spanish institutions say otherwise once different documents come into conflict. The Spanish institutions accept that Catalonia is a nation, this was not called into question when they accepted the statute.

So I'll ask again. Is Catalonia a nation, in which you previously stated as a fact it was not? A yes or no answer will suffice.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Are we really going to do this again? If so, please show me where the Constitution specifies Catalonia as a nation. By specify, that means explicitly refer to Catalonia.

In the first sentence he says he doesn't give a fcuk about the Spanish Constitution and in the next sentence refers to the Constitution to try and prove a point.

You're obviously too slow to understand this point. You have heralded the constitution as the be all and end all. I never gave an opinion on it. So I took your consistency to task using that same constitution. That too hard for you to understand?

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Why does the constitution need to, if it enshrines a statute that does, which is an extension of the constitution?

Unless you recognise no court rulings on anything as each case is not specifically referred to in the constitution? Unless you believe the Spanish court and institutions do carry legitimacy as they are ENSHRINED by the constitution? I must ask again, do you know what the word means?

If the constitution carry's legitimacy as it's recognised by the Spanish institutions, why do all official documents not carry legitimacy if recognized by the Spanish institutions? Are you discarding the legitimacy of the Spanish institutions, which recognise the constitution and other documents? We either recognise them all, or none, unless the Spanish institutions say otherwise once different documents come into conflict. The Spanish institutions accept that Catalonia is a nation, this was not called into question when they accepted the statute.

So I'll ask again. Is Catalonia a nation, in which you previously stated as a fact it was not? A yes or no answer will suffice.

But it's you and independence advocates who says that you "don't give a fcuk about the Spanish Constitution" so I'll ask you, do you accept the Spanish Constitution and all it's institutions.

Another contradiction by pro Independence advocates changing their mind and making it up as they go along.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

But it's you and independence advocates who says that you "don't give a fcuk about the Spanish Constitution" so I'll ask you, do you accept the Spanish Constitution and all it's institutions.

Another contradiction by pro Independence advocates changing their mind and making it up as they go along.

I don't give a fcuk about Spain at all. Or France for that matter, or any other country. But you do. So I came here to query YOUR inconsistency on the matter. So if you personally DO recognise the Spanish institutions, and the constitution, why do you find it so hard to accept that Catalonia is a nation, seeing as it's accepted as such by the institutions and enshrined by the constitution? My opinion on this is neither here nor there. I originally interjected in the thread to ask YOU if Catalonia was a nation. So if YOU personally recognise the Spanish institutions, do YOU then accept that Catalonia is infact a nation? Yes or no?

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I don't give a fcuk about Spain at all. Or France for that matter, or any other country. But you do. So I came here to query YOUR inconsistency on the matter. So if you personally DO recognise the Spanish institutions, and the constitution, why do you find it so hard to accept that Catalonia is a nation, seeing as it's accepted as such by the institutions and enshrined by the constitution? My opinion on this is neither here nor there. I originally interjected in the thread to ask YOU if Catalonia was a nation. So if YOU personally recognise the Spanish institutions, do YOU then accept that Catalonia is infact a nation? Yes or no?

WRONG.

You are the one making the assertion that Catalonia is a nation. I've never said that Catalonia is a Country, nation or a state. The onus is on you to backup your statements. Looks like your trying to dig yourself out of a hole. Based on your argument, the nation of Catalonia could declare parts of France within it's territory because the Statute of Autonomy said so.

If you can't come up with facts then we'll just have to go down this road again.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

WRONG.

You are the one making the assertion that Catalonia is a nation. I've never said that Catalonia is a Country, nation or a state. The onus is on you to backup your statements. Looks like your trying to dig yourself out of a hole. Based on your argument, the nation of Catalonia could declare parts of France within it's territory because the Statute of Autonomy said so.

If you can't come up with facts then we'll just have to go down this road again.

That road? Your fapathon over grown sweaty men? I'm sure you go down that road every night mate.

Actually, you have repeatedly stated Catalonia was not a nation. Wants links? I picked you up on this point. Therefore I came onto ask you was Catalonia a nation, to debate that point. So how is it "WRONG"? You ain't the brightest, are you? The Spanish institutions accepted it was a nation, by enshrining the statute in the constitution that declares Catalonia a nation. If you support the Spanish institutions, do you now concede Catalonia is a nation. If you do not see Catalonia as a nation, are you now saying the Spanish institutions are wrong?

And before you sidetrack this back to me, I'm a big contradicting hypocrite. So we've clarified my huge flaws. So can you now give a straight answer to the straight question I'm asking you please. Is Catalonia a nation, yes or no?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Yet again you are trying to completely mislead people in the hope of posting a random article on a completely separate issue in a different language in the hope that people won't understand it and take your word.
The article and link you posted to lavanguardia relates to the speed at which legislation was passing through the Catalan Parliaments, it has nothing to do with the issues we were discussing in terms of Article 56 and the Spanish Constitution.

The article explain everything you should know ( by now ) about why the vote in the referendum law was legal. You obviously didn't even understand the title of it...:rolleyes:


You have difficulties to understand this simple article in Spanish, and yet it's been 8 months now that you are trying to explain us the meaning of some laws texts in Catalan ...

Right ! ...:D




Sorry for those readers here who are not familiar with Spanish / Catalan.

I post links in English whenever I can , but sometimes the article itself doesn't exist in English,or is too poor to be interesting or the automatic translation alters the meaning of it.

Recent links are often in English, since the Catalonia situation has been broadly put into the light internationally, but that is not the case for older news.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The Constitution supersedes any Catalan Statute, which at this point in time has zero authority because of Article 155 (...)

Just to update you on the situation in real life, article 155 has been lifted more than a week ago... :rolleyes: