Catalan independence referendum, 2017

v638sg7k1a92bx · 14-10-2019 8:44pm

Are the riot police at the airport the Mossos or national police?

EagererBeaver · 14-10-2019 8:45pm

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Are the riot police at the airport the Mossos or national police?

Both, predominantly Mossos.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 14-10-2019 8:48pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Both, predominantly Mossos.

How things have changed, last time out they were "protecting" the protesters. Crying shoulder to shoulder with the firemen.

EagererBeaver · 14-10-2019 9:16pm

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

How things have changed, last time out they were "protecting" the protesters. Crying shoulder to shoulder with the firemen.

I think part of it is how closely the organisers kept their cards to their chest. Telegram only came alive with the details of the plans this morning. After the announcements of the sentences just before 10am the initial reaction was largely disorganized, primarily consisted of young people and there was a comparatively tame police reaction.

Then the airport "takeover" was launched and was clearly well planned and I think it caught the cops off guard.

Hector Savage · 15-10-2019 9:12am

It's a real shame whats happening here, these protestors are destroying Catalunya.
They want chaos, they want the country to burn.
They are happy with this sentence - it gives them the excuse they crave for carnage.

I hope they will be out by Christmas like it's been reported.

marieholmfan · 15-10-2019 10:06am

Suggesting that people being bombed might be ok is well below standard. Do not do it again here.

EagererBeaver · 15-10-2019 4:37pm

Catalonia’s separatists were jailed for sedition, but brought down by hubris

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/15/catalonia-separatists-jailed-sedition-hubris?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

A thoughtful, considered take on things.

A Dub in Glasgo · 16-10-2019 11:11pm

Looks like the EU is ignoring the repression going on in a EU country to concentrate on repression that is going on is an Asian country

https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/1184573500570456065

The Golden Miller · 17-10-2019 12:01am

Hector Savage wrote: »

It's a real shame whats happening here, these protestors are destroying Catalunya.

It's a nation, give it the choice of self-determination, then get on with it one way or another. Bully's and fascists though, prefer to keep their foot on people's neck's

Hector Savage · 17-10-2019 9:52am

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It's a nation, give it the choice of self-determination, then get on with it one way or another. Bully's and fascists though, prefer to keep their foot on people's neck's

read the guardian article above for the truth.
These people have no interest in voting or democracy, they just want to declare independence based on their illegal referendum from 2017 - which pro remain people ignored as it was illegal - so of course it 'won'

Now however the mask has slipped and we see the thugs burning the city they say they love.

Irony.

Mod Note: keep the language civil

Hector Savage · 17-10-2019 9:53am

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Looks like the EU is ignoring the repression going on in a EU country to concentrate on repression that is going on is an Asian country

https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/1184573500570456065

No repression going on here, none at all.

Stop peddling lies

eire4 · 17-10-2019 4:24pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

No repression going on here, none at all.

Stop peddling lies

Sure looks like the Spanish government is behaving like a repressive bully rather then engaging in talks to solve the issues between Catalonia and Spain.

The Golden Miller · 17-10-2019 6:37pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

read the guardian article above for the truth.
These people have no interest in voting or democracy, they just want to declare independence based on their illegal referendum from 2017 - which pro remain people ignored as it was illegal - so of course it 'won'

Now however the mask has slipped and we see the thugs burning the city they say they love.

Irony.

This has all come about because they are denied the right to self-determination. Do you not believe they should have the right to self-determination?

Also, you obviously agree with the repressive approach Spanish authorities have taken in handling all this?

Mod Note: keep the language civil

Hector Savage · 17-10-2019 7:16pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

This has all come about because they are denied the right to self-determination. Do you not believe they should have the right to self-determination?

Also, you obviously agree with the repressive approach Spanish authorities have taken in handling all this?

Who wants self determination ?
Not the majority, it's a very loud minority of people that just want to declare independence ...
Should we give in to any whim, what about if a bunch of lads from Laois wanted independence from IReland ???

The referendum was illegal, they even broke the rules of their own parliament.
The only repressive approach Spain has had was on 1/10/17 - which was farcical I admit.

LAst night gangs of masked thugs were throwing bottles and molotov cocktails at the MOSSOS (the Catalan police) and shouting PUTA ESPANA PUTA POLICIA ... all the time - these people want to see carnage, they want a war, they couldn't give a **** about democracy or voting they just wanna declare their own made up country.

Mod Note: keep the language civil

Achasanai · 17-10-2019 7:24pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

Who wants self determination ?
Not the majority, it's a very loud minority of people that just want to declare independence ...
Should we give in to any whim, what about if a bunch of lads from Laois wanted independence from IReland ???

I would imagine if the bunch of lads from Laois had their own language, identified as a separate nation throughout history, and actually were independent in the past, then it might be an idea to hold a free and fair referendum.

Catalonia has as much right to determine their own path - if they so wish - as we had back in 1919.

is_that_so · 17-10-2019 7:28pm

eire4 wrote: »

Sure looks like the Spanish government is behaving like a repressive bully rather then engaging in talks to solve the issues between Catalonia and Spain.

Technically there is no government, just an acting one until the election. The PSOE did put out feelers.

is_that_so · 17-10-2019 7:30pm

Achasanai wrote: »

I would imagine if the bunch of lads from Laois had their own language, identified as a separate nation throughout history, and actually were independent in the past, then it might be an idea to hold a free and fair referendum.

Catalonia has as much right to determine their own path - if they so wish - as we had back in 1919.

Fair is fine but not off what was deemed an illegal referendum. In a legal referendum the numbers are not there for it to pass.

The Golden Miller · 17-10-2019 7:31pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

Who wants self determination ?
Not the majority, it's a very loud minority of people that just want to declare independence ...

And you know this because? Why was there a referendum on anything ever? Surely no referendum ever passed because the status quo at the time was right all along, ye?

Hector Savage wrote: »

Should we give in to any whim, what about if a bunch of lads from Laois wanted independence from IReland ???

Except that's not the same analogy, is it? You are aware of the idea of nationhood, no? Like is this groundhog day? The same false analogies are given and easily disputed again and again

is_that_so · 17-10-2019 7:33pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

And you know this because?

The proportion of people who identify as exclusively Catalan is in the high 30s.

The Golden Miller · 17-10-2019 7:36pm

is_that_so wrote: »

The proportion of people who identify as exclusively Catalan is in the high 30s.

So the answer to an entirely different question settles the matter then!

is_that_so · 17-10-2019 7:40pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So the answer to an entirely different question settles the matter then!

It's an answer to your question. Do with it what you will. Recent polls have also shown a decline in support for independence. You seem to be looking for someone to spar with and that's not me!:)

The Golden Miller · 17-10-2019 7:44pm

is_that_so wrote: »

It's an answer to your question. Do with it what you will. Recent polls have also shown a decline in support for independence. You seem to be looking for someone to spar with and that's not me!:)

So only the people who identify solely as Catalan will vote for independence? If only these things were black and white

Maybe people don't want independence, maybe they just want to have the choice, ye know? Who knows? But I guess even that's alot to ask for in a supposedly western democracy

is_that_so · 17-10-2019 7:53pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So only the people who identify solely as Catalan will vote for independence? If only these things were black and white

Maybe people don't want independence, maybe they just want to have the choice, ye know? Who knows? But I guess even that's alot to ask for in a supposedly western democracy

They would certainly be more likely to vote for it. You can extrapolate from the referendum poll result, which was at about 90% in favour IIRC.
A poll in July had total support at about 47%, so that's likely to be very few of the others. I agree it's not black and white but it is mostly about money and that joke about Catalans is true! Many of those in Catalonia resent the large contributions to equalisation, themselves, Madrid and the Balearics being the biggest funders of it. Apart from "issues" with the feckless south, they claim they don't get enough services funded out of central coffers fro what they contribute. I reckon they have a case in that. I think a deal around greater autonomy and retaining more funds would have more hope of success.

The Golden Miller · 17-10-2019 8:01pm

is_that_so wrote: »

They would certainly be more likely to vote for it. You can extrapolate from the referendum poll result, which was at about 90% in favour IIRC.
A poll in July had total support at about 47%, so that's likely to be very few of the others. I agree it's not black and white but it is mostly about money and that joke about Catalans is true! Many of those in Catalonia resent the large contributions to equalisation, themselves, Madrid and the Balearics being the biggest funders of it. Apart from "issues" with the feckless south, they claim they don't get enough services funded out of central coffers fro what they contribute. I reckon they have a case in that. I think a deal around greater autonomy and retaining more funds would have more hope of success.

We'll never know as they are continually denied the right to self-determination. Maybe over 50% don't want independence, but I'd wager over 50% would at least like the choice, particularly after what has happened in the last couple of years.

Hector Savage · 17-10-2019 9:16pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So only the people who identify solely as Catalan will vote for independence? If only these things were black and white

Maybe people don't want independence, maybe they just want to have the choice, ye know? Who knows? But I guess even that's alot to ask for in a supposedly western democracy

They don;t want the choice, the vote - they want to declare independence and f*ck everyone else.

People who dare want to stay part of spain are having dog**** shoved in their letterboxes ... these people are extremists.

Just look at these guys
https://youtu.be/MNqm_WK8O-g

Tell me they are peaceful protestors...

The Golden Miller · 17-10-2019 9:21pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

They don;t want the choice, the vote - they want to declare independence and f*ck everyone else.

People who dare want to stay part of spain are having dog**** shoved in their letterboxes ... these people are extremists.

As I asked before, how do you know what people want?

You seem to only selectively reply to me

Who said they were all peaceful protesters? On the topic, want to see violence from the Spanish state?

Hector Savage · 17-10-2019 9:23pm

Where do you live anyway ?
Ireland and you safely watching this from a one sided view ?

The Golden Miller · 17-10-2019 9:28pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

Where do you live anyway ?
Ireland and you safely watching this from a one sided view ?

Why should I answer anything you ask, when you've yet to address anything I ask?

Why should a nation not have the right to self-determination?

Hector Savage · 17-10-2019 9:29pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Why should I answer anything you ask, when you've yet to address anything I ask?

Why should a nation not have the right to self-determination?

Cataluna is not a nation

The Golden Miller · 17-10-2019 9:33pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

Cataluna is not a nation

Yet in the last statute, Spain recognises it's a nation. Look at the last mod note too.

Also: "a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory."

How does it not fit the above definition, or indeed any definition of a nation? Are you even aware of what a nation is?

I'll ask again, why should a nation not have the right to self-determination?

Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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