Catalan independence referendum, 2017

bertie 56

About the Spanish Constitution, it's a text that is violated everyday ( often by the " rule of law " lovers ! ) and nobody gives a damn about it ( specially the " rule of law " lovers ! )
So, bragging about " non-respect of the Constitution " , meh ...:rolleyes:

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

There are different divisions in every police force but it is still the same police force. Cherrypicking again - this part of the Mossos good, this part of the Mossos bad. What will be next?

Well, it's pretty easy : some Mossos are kicking you, while some others are protecting you.

That is a fact.
Sometimes at the same time and place, like 2 days ago in the Autovia 83 .
And unfortunately, no, it's not cherrypicking, since you don't choose which ones will be around .

is_that_so

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

There may be no legal case but you could definitely argue a democratic case.

This kind of heavy handedness never works in the long run.

Not when you run an illegal referendum. The numbers are not there for independence, most people are not Catalan or do not see themselves as prmarily Catalan.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Well, it's pretty easy : some Mossos are kicking you, while some others are protecting you.

That is a fact.
Sometimes at the same time and place, like 2 days ago in the Autovia 83 .
And unfortunately, no, it's not cherrypicking, since you don't choose which ones will be around .

Like I said cherrypicking.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Like I said cherrypicking.

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to have it.

But it won't change the facts , as I wrote them above.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Where is the democratic case, the majority of people want to remain part of Spain. (...) .

No, that is a wrong statement.




It's been 24 years now that the independentists parties wins everything.



Could you explain me how this happens, if , as you say " the majority of people want to remain part of Spain " ???



Reminder :

2017 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President.
2015 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President.
2012 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President.
2010 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President
...

Independence referendums ( 2009 , 2011, 2014, 2017 ) : Independentism won.
...Etc...
...Etc...



By the way, when was the last time the unionism won something in Catalonia ?

eire4

is_that_so wrote: »

Technically there is no government, just an acting one until the election. The PSOE did put out feelers.

It is still a government and their reaction has been repressive just as the prison sentences were repressive. If they want to solve the issues between Spain and Catalonia then they need to actually sit down and talk and hammer out an agreement over negotiations. But so far they have preferred to take a heavy handed approach.

is_that_so

eire4 wrote: »

It is still a government and their reaction has been repressive just as the prison sentences were repressive. If they want to solve the issues between Spain and Catalonia then they need to actually sit down and talk and hammer out an agreement over negotiations. But so far they have preferred to take a heavy handed approach.

The sentences are the judiciary not the government and it wasn't this government that responded. An acting government really just keeps the country ticking over. Sitting down and talking works both ways, without preconditions.

eire4

is_that_so wrote: »

The sentences are the judiciary not the government and it wasn't this government that responded. Sitting down and talking works both ways, without preconditions.

I am well aware that the Judiciary are not the government that is why I said the sentences were repressive as well.

"It is still a government and their reaction has been repressive just as the prison sentences were repressive"

The reality is Spain is facing its biggest crisis since the end of the Franco's right wing fascist regime in the 1970's. Yet the response of Madrid since the start of this crisis has been a heavy handed one and that seemingly is not changing at all. I hope that this ends and that the Spanish and the Catalans can sit down and negotiate and come to an amicable resolution because continuing with the heavy handed approach will make everyone a loser IMHO.

EagererBeaver

bertie 56 wrote: »

It's been 24 years now that the independentists parties wins everything.

Except the popular vote?

Are you going to clarify that the policy of the largest of those parties didn't become seccessionist until the last ten years?

Do you really want to be clamouring about the electoral success of Jordi Pujol and Artur Más?! Is that supposed to be something people should be proud of or respect? Most independistas would prefer Pujol's name was wiped from history and never spoken of again.

Hector Savage

THey are smashing footpaths up right now with pickaxes, filling shopping trolleys with the rubble and using them as ammo dumps v the police.

This is not good and I can't see it ending.

But hey, it's all peaceful protests.

Time to start looking for jobs in Holland or Norway....

bertie 56

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Except the popular vote?

Sorry, I don't get your sentence .

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Are you going to clarify that the policy of the largest of those parties didn't become seccessionist until the last ten years?

Well, CUP and ERC , that represent the majority in the independentist side, has always been pro-independence .
The predecessors of JxCat have moved quite recently towards a pro-independence position, that is true.
And if you have a close look at the numbers, you will realize that, the more independentist they are , the more votes they got.
That clearly shows that there is a demand in Catalonia for becoming independent , stronger every time.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Do you really want to be clamouring about the electoral success of Jordi Pujol and Artur Más?! Is that supposed to be something people should be proud of or respect? Most independistas would prefer Pujol's name was wiped from history and never spoken of again.

I would say that if people now are not proud or respectful about Pujol and Más , it is not because of their positions on the independence at the time .
That said, proud or not proud today , it doesn't matter really for what I was talking about ,which was the numbers of votes in the independentist side.

ancapailldorcha

Bertie 56, no more image dumps please.

bertie 56

I was posting some images and explanations about the massive turnout demonstration that has happened today in Barcelona.



You'll find plenty of them in Twitter " Catalans for yes " for example ( channel in English ), and discussions on Reddit.com.


Bona nit !

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

No, that is a wrong statement.




It's been 24 years now that the independentists parties wins everything.



Could you explain me how this happens, if , as you say " the majority of people want to remain part of Spain " ???



Reminder :

2017 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President.
2015 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President.
2012 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President.
2010 elections : Independentists parties were the majority- Independentist President
...

Independence referendums ( 2009 , 2011, 2014, 2017 ) : Independentism won.
...Etc...
...Etc...



By the way, when was the last time the unionism won something in Catalonia ?

These are local elections and the “referendums” you refer to are not referendums which is why the majority of Catalans who want to remain part of Spain choose not to turn out for these phoney referendum but you know all this and still wilfully choose to ignore these facts because it doesn’t suit your dogma of this man made idea of Catalonia which didn’t exist 20 years ago.

If pro independence support was so strong in Catalonia, why is it that they can’t pass legislation in their own parliament because they don’t have the required majority?

All this was covered last time but you still choose to ignore the facts and keep repeating the same same old tired arguments that have no credibility and contradict themselves.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

These are local elections

No, they were the regional ones :rolleyes:

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

the “referendums” you refer to are not referendums which is why the majority of Catalans who want to remain part of Spain choose not to turn out for these phoney referendum

Every registered voter of Catalonia was invited to vote, and there is no law in Spain or Catalonia that invalidate a referendum based on the turnout.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

(...) it doesn’t suit your dogma of this man made idea of Catalonia which didn’t exist 20 years ago.

No, the " Catalanism " as it is called , is around one century old in his modern politic form.
But his origins are back from far earlier than that.
You probably don't know about Lluís Companys , President of Catalonia, shot by the Spanish fascists for having declaring the Catalan Republic in 1934 ?

That is 85 years ago .
A bit more than 20, then...
A good book on that : https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9780312126117

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If pro independence support was so strong in Catalonia, why is it that they can’t pass legislation in their own parliament because they don’t have the required majority?

As you said : " All this was covered last time but you still choose to ignore the facts and keep repeating the same same old tired arguments that have no credibility and contradict themselves."
See https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107265445&postcount=1909 for a memory refresh.


All this doesn't answer my question :

bertie 56 wrote: »

By the way, when was the last time the unionism won something in Catalonia ?

Achasanai

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Exactly, which is why the argument for Catalonian independence is a reduction to absurdity based on the arguments put forward above.

If it's a reduction to absurdity for Catalan independence, then it would have to be for pretty much any nation. Catalonia was previously a nation, has had aspirations to be a nation again at various points in its history, and has its own language. The same can't be said for 'residents on your street' (like the 'group of lads in Laois' argument used previously) as they won't have their own language (unless are they making up their own language?), have never been an independent nation before, and have never had a history of aspiring to become a nation.



Catalonia ticks many more of the boxes than Ireland did prior to its independence, and yet I imagine the vast majority of ye have no problem with Ireland consider itself (and, y'know, existing as) an independent nation.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Achasanai wrote: »

If it's a reduction to absurdity for Catalan independence, then it would have to be for pretty much any nation. Catalonia was previously a nation, has had aspirations to be a nation again at various points in its history, and has its own language. The same can't be said for 'residents on your street' (like the 'group of lads in Laois' argument used previously) as they won't have their own language (unless are they making up their own language?), have never been an independent nation before, and have never had a history of aspiring to become a nation.



Catalonia ticks many more of the boxes than Ireland did prior to its independence, and yet I imagine the vast majority of ye have no problem with Ireland consider itself (and, y'know, existing as) an independent nation.

This has been covered extensively on this thread that it’s getting too repetitive but the main issue you have is that you don’t have the democratic or legal majority. It’s that simple Catalonia has been part of Spain for over 500 years, this man made nationalist idea a of an independent Catalonia wasn’t around 20 years ago.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

No, they were the regional ones :rolleyes:






Every registered voter of Catalonia was invited to vote, and there is no law in Spain or Catalonia that invalidate a referendum based on the turnout.



No, the " Catalanism " as it is called , is around one century old in his modern politic form.
But his origins are back from far earlier than that.
You probably don't know about Lluís Companys , President of Catalonia, shot by the Spanish fascists for having declaring the Catalan Republic in 1934 ?

That is 85 years ago .
A bit more than 20, then...
A good book on that : https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9780312126117


As you said : " All this was covered last time but you still choose to ignore the facts and keep repeating the same same old tired arguments that have no credibility and contradict themselves."
See https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107265445&postcount=1909 for a memory refresh.


All this doesn't answer my question :

An invitation to vote in an illegal referendum?

When was the last time unionism won something in Catalonia? What a childish ridiculous question but to answer on those terms, they don’t need to win anything because they are winning every day and you are losing. Spain is a united country, Catalonia is not a country or a nation or a state.

Achasanai

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

This has been covered extensively on this thread that it’s getting too repetitive but the main issue you have is that you don’t have the democratic or legal majority. It’s that simple Catalonia has been part of Spain for over 500 years, this man made nationalist idea a of an independent Catalonia wasn’t around 20 years ago.

It may have been covered extensively, but I was responding to a post you made on the subject. And if it was covered so extensively, I'm afraid the arguments made about people on your street/a group of lads in Laois don't amount to much. If they're repeated, and people disagree, then people will reply.



All nationalist ideas are man-made (unless you have examples of non-man made nationalist ideas - I'm all ears), but Catalonia has a greater argument than some of the European states that are in existence (including ourselves). As for whether there wasn't an idea of an independent Catalonia around 20 years ago, there was certainly a movement towards autonomy, which is developing towards a push for independence (sound familiar? There was a similar move for autonomy - home rule - in Ireland, which eventually developed towards a push for full-blown independence). Before this arbitrary 20 year period you mention? I think the move towards independence may have been impacted directly by the whole fascist Franco government.


Legal and democracy 'concerns' were also expressed in the early part of the 20th century in Ireland. It was very difficult for Catalonia to develop a legal or democratic mandate with regards to independence during Franco's rule as it was quite simply illegal. The political situation post-Franco means that the legal problems are still there (can Catalonia have a legal referendum on independence?) and the democratic nature of the argument is seemingly growing with the election of pro-independence parties and the referenda (flawed as they are).

v638sg7k1a92bx

Achasanai wrote: »

It may have been covered extensively, but I was responding to a post you made on the subject. And if it was covered so extensively, I'm afraid the arguments made about people on your street/a group of lads in Laois don't amount to much. If they're repeated, and people disagree, then people will reply.



All nationalist ideas are man-made (unless you have examples of non-man made nationalist ideas - I'm all ears), but Catalonia has a greater argument than some of the European states that are in existence (including ourselves). As for whether there wasn't an idea of an independent Catalonia around 20 years ago, there was certainly a movement towards autonomy, which is developing towards a push for independence (sound familiar? There was a similar move for autonomy - home rule - in Ireland, which eventually developed towards a push for full-blown independence). Before this arbitrary 20 year period you mention? I think the move towards independence may have been impacted directly by the whole fascist Franco government.


Legal and democracy 'concerns' were also expressed in the early part of the 20th century in Ireland. It was very difficult for Catalonia to develop a legal or democratic mandate with regards to independence during Franco's rule as it was quite simply illegal. The political situation post-Franco means that the legal problems are still there (can Catalonia have a legal referendum on independence?) and the democratic nature of the argument is seemingly growing with the election of pro-independence parties and the referenda (flawed as they are).

I think your attributing that post to the wrong person but in any event the comparison has merit because what independence protesters did was call a “referendum” where the only people who voted were the ones in favour of independence. So in effect it is the same thing as the neighbours in Laois calling a referendum whereby the only people who will vote will be the neighbours on that road. That’s the whole crux of this thread

As for the arbitrary 20 years, you can go back 500 years and the borders of Spain haven’t changed. Also, Catalonia has never been a nation and if it was to become one, will it include the parts of France that are in Catalonia?

In terms of the legal basis for independence, the legal basis already exists but first they need to pass a 2/3 majority in the Catalan parliament to allow for a vote on independence which they haven’t been able to do. So not only are they in breach of the Spanish constitution, they are in breach of their own parliamentary laws but decided to bull on through and hold an illegal referendum that had zero democratic oversights where the ballot boxes were ordered from Ali express, stashed in their homes and then slept in the polling stations. They then took the phoney results, declare independence and then make themselves out to be victims. The whole thing is a nonsense.

You’re also forgetting that Spanish constitution is often referred to the Catalan constitution because three of the seven contributors who drafted it were from Catalonia AND the Spanish constitution was passed with over 80% majority in Catalonia.

Finally, to compare British Imperialism and Ireland’s fight for independence with modern day Spain were in Catalonia they enjoy highest livings standards and autonomy than anywhere else in the country is ridiculous.

EagererBeaver

I'm not making any judgment on whether or not Catalunya is a nation, but when exactly was it previously one?

marieholmfan

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I'm not making any judgment on whether or not Catalunya is a nation, but when exactly was it previously one?

It is literally a group of people with the same language , religion and culture or as Leopold Bloom said it is the same people in the same police.

The Catalans are learning that freedom must be bought with blood.

is_that_so

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I'm not making any judgment on whether or not Catalunya is a nation, but when exactly was it previously one?

Before the Spanish war of Succession in the early 18th century but that was at a time when Spain was still full of kingdoms.

EagererBeaver

marieholmfan wrote: »

It is literally a group of people with the same language , religion and culture or as Leopold Bloom said it is the same people in the same police.

The Catalans are learning that freedom must be bought with blood.

There are millions of people in Catalunya who don't speak Catalan, or don't speak it as a first language and prefer not to.

What does religion have to do with nationhood? (Most modern day Spaniards and Catalans are non-religious and there are huge numbers of Muslims, or of Muslim descent.)

v638sg7k1a92bx

is_that_so wrote: »

Before the Spanish war of Succession in the early 18th century but that was at a time when Spain was still full of kingdoms.

So I’ll ask again. When was Catalonia a nation?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

When was the last time unionism won something in Catalonia? What a childish ridiculous question but to answer on those terms, they don’t need to win anything because they are winning every day and you are losing. Spain is a united country, Catalonia is not a country or a nation or a state.

The numbers of voters are the only sure and recognize way to determine who thinks what. (A poll can give an idea , but that is all it can give )

Nothing childish or ridiculous there.
The fact is ( and it is a recognize and official fact ), unionism hasn't won any important election in Catalonia for a long time now.

Unionism is just a minority in Catalonia , the numbers are there to prove it .
This is a fact.


The independantists are the majority in Catalonia, it is a FACT.


And Catalonia is not a country or state yet, but is already a nation

( see post https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107312485&postcount=1911 for a memory refresh ) .

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

(...) unionism (...) : they don’t need to win anything because they are winning every day and you are losing.

Yes. You need to win an election/referendum to pretend that you are a majority.

( Well, it works like this in a democratic country anyway ... )


The only thing I see that the unionism " side " is winning these days, is the international attention , to politicians, press, and people.( Read the press abroad ! ) And I don't see them very happy about it...

Politicians and citizens in Europe, slowly but surely, starts reacting now after seeing how this country treats their citizens( again ! ) with jail, police baton and refusal of dialogue .

What a win ! :rolleyes:

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

The numbers of voters are the only sure and recognize way to determine who thinks what. (A poll can give an idea , but that is all it can give )

Nothing childish or ridiculous there.

The fact is ( and it is a recognize and official fact ), unionism hasn't won any important election in Catalonia for a long time now.

Unionism is just a minority in Catalonia , the numbers are there to prove it .

This is a fact.


The independantists are the majority in Catalonia, it is a FACT.


And Catalonia is not a country or state yet, but is already a nation

( see post https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107312485&postcount=1911 for a memory refresh ) .



Yes. You need to win an election/referendum to pretend that you are a majority.

( Well, it works like this in a democratic country anyway ... )


The only thing I see that the unionism " side " is winning these days, is the international attention , to politicians, press, and people.( Read the press abroad ! ) And I don't see them very happy about it...

Politicians and citizens in Europe, slowly but surely, starts reacting now after seeing how this country treats their citizens( again ! ) with jail, police baton and refusal of dialogue .

What a win ! :rolleyes:

There are no political parties in Catalonia who are campaigning for a united Spain because Spain is already a united country so how can they win something they already have. Which is why your question “when was the last time unionism won something in Catalonia?” is a silly childish question.

The reality is that the total pro independence parties make up less than 50% of the electorate. A basic simple fact that you refuse to accept.

As for international attention, the opinion has swayed against pro independence parties since 2017 because people are more aware of the facts and the illegal activities of independence movement and their leaders. People are also wary of nationalist movements like Brexit and the one in Catalonia that attempts to demonise others as being the cause of their problems.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

There are no political parties in Catalonia who are campaigning for a united Spain because Spain is already a united country so how can they win something they already have. Which is why your question “when was the last time unionism won something in Catalonia?” is a silly childish question.

Here two you surely don't know, then : C's and PP .
And a third one that you will surely hear about in a month time : Vox.
That makes three.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The reality is that the total pro independence parties make up less than 50% of the electorate.

Nope. Get your numbers right ...

bertie 56

After a week of demonstrations, and the disproportionate use of violence by the Police , here is the toll :


- 579 people got hurt , one is between life and death, another one in intensive care after being run over by a police van.

- 4 people lost an eye , due to the extensive illegal use of the prohibited rubber bullets by the police.

- 179 people arrested and detained, one of them being a journalist ( from El Pais ).

- 21 people ( more ! ) are in jail.



Freedom of press :



58 journalists has been hurt so far , despite wearing clear Hi-vi vests with " PRESS " signs on them. Some testimonies and videos show clearly that these signs doesn't prevent the kicks of police batons.

One photo-journalist ( El Pais ) has been violently arrested Thursday doing his job.
He was taking pictures of a violent beating of a young man by the police at the time. Some colleagues around him weren't able to avoid the arrest, despite showing that he was a journalist on duty. We don't know yet if the pictures has been erased by the police in his camera .
( For more information * : Google search : ccma.cat - key words : detingut-un-fotoperiodista-de-el-pais-mentre-cobria-els-aldarulls-a-la-via-laietana )

A complain has been made by the European Federation of Journalists and the International Federation of Journalists to the Council of Europe about the journalists situation .
(for full report * : Google search : media.cat - key words : recompte-agressions-periodistes-protestes-sentencia )



Freedom of expression - rights to demonstrate :


The website of Tsunami Democratic has been closed this week by the Spanish High Court for " terrorism."

Tsunami Democratic is the online platform that coordinate the demonstrations in Catalonia since Monday ( although being older than that )

Their veto is civil and non violent disobedience from the beginning ,and the movement is now made of 330.000 members , growing every day...

It has been lauched this Monday at a big scale by a video of Pep Guardiola ( Manchester City soccer trainer ) and ask for a dialogue between Catalonia and Spain , rejecting the violence. The video has been seen by more than 1.3M people . ( Search* Google with key words : "Pep Guardiola - tsunami" ).


A new mirror site has opened instantaneously identical at the previous one , and still with a chapter of non-violence and a link to dowload the app. ( that is the first " terrorist " web site that I see with a chapter on non-violence , by the way ! ).( Search* Google with key words " tsunami democratic github " )


Alerted on this abusive website closure, the European Commission has urged the Spanish authorities to "find the balance" between "guaranteeing freedom of expression and maintaining public order and security" after the Spanish National Court has ordered the closure of the website of the Democratic Tsunami.


More information on Democratic Tsunami , with the title : " Catalonia has created a new kind of online activism. Everyone should pay attention"

( in English, with a nerd / tech part : Search * Google wired.co.uk - key words " barcelonia-riots-catalonia-protests-news ".)


Freedom of expression again, the Communidad of Madrid has asked today to the Spanish Government the ban of all Madrid demonstrations on solidarity with Catalonia and in favor of dialogue.


Dialogue : After a call Monday, a call yesterday and a call today form Torra to propose to sit around a table , Sanchez still hasn't pick up the phone yet. ( and it's not a metaphor ...)









( * to conform with the new rules of the " Politics " forum about link posting , I won't post anymore the full link , but enough to find it . Please drop me a PM if you can't find one or more of those : no problem for me to give them fully in PM . Sorry about that ).