Catalan independence referendum, 2017

recedite

ilkhanid wrote: »

It certainly was a problem for Czechoslovakia! It lost important industrial areas..

Well you could go back even further in time and look at pre WW1 borders, and see that Prussia, Hungary, and Austria were large countries back then. But big chunks were taken by the allies and went into enlarging France, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia. That's why the contentious areas still had a German population.

At the end of the day its the people who live in a country that count. The land and the country should belong to them. If they are not happy, then borders should be moved, or else the people may have to move.

ilkhanid wrote: »

No the best alternative would be to treat the Rohynga as equals in Burma.

In an ideal world yes, but why do you think a Rohingia village can be burned by the Burmese army without harming any Burmese? Its because they don't mix with the Burmese. The Bengalis/muslims live in their villages and the Burmese/buddhists live in theirs. If they can't all live together in the same village, then why would you expect them to live in the same country?
It was a big problem for the troops back in WW2 because one lot supported the Japanese and the other lot supported the British. So if troops wandered into a village it was hard to know whether to expect food and lodging, or a machete to the neck.

Samaris

Do you think the Rohingya are deliberately keeping themselves aloof or have they had a little too much experience of their villages being burned, their people raped and murdered and their homes destroyed?

Like, on balance of evidence, do you really think that the Rohingya chose to be a hated, lied about subpopulation who had the sheer misfortune to be on land that the British wanted to apportion to British Indian settlers?

recedite

Samaris wrote: »

Do you think the Rohingya are deliberately keeping themselves aloof

I have never lived in that part of the world, but I'd say it would be a lot easier for a muslim to live in a buddhist village, than for a buddhist (or anyone who was not a muslim) to live in a muslim village.

Samaris wrote: »

Do you really think that the Rohingya chose to be a hated, lied about subpopulation who had the sheer misfortune to be on land that the British wanted to apportion to British Indian settlers?

They were the "British Indian" settlers. You have got that the wrong way round. The British encouraged them into Burmah, just as they brought them into Kenya and east Africa. As labourers and as a divide and conquer strategy to combat local anti-imperialist nationalism. Then when the Rohingia were armed to fight the Japanese, they used the weapons to massacre the Burmese instead.

The current generation are completely innocent of the mistakes of the past. But at the end of the day they are more suited to living in Bangladesh with their own ethnic group/culture/religion.
My point was about the plasticity of borders. This notion that a border once drawn, is sacrosanct. Its better to move a border to suit the people, than the other way round. Put a new border in, take one out; whatever works to keep the people happy.
Catalonia is just a less extreme version of that.

matthew8

ilkhanid wrote: »

Indeed. And that "cleansing" was a consequence of the German theft of those areas and their subsequent behaviour in the first place. One act flowed from the other, just like the expulsions of Germans from East Prussia and Silesia, many Serbs from the Krajina and Armenians from Azerbaijan.

Whatever about some of the areas the Germans were kicked out of, East Prussia certainly wasn't one they had stolen. It had been German for hundreds of years, so German that the expulsion from Konigsberg (Kaliningrad now) left hardly any people left, and they had to import a whole new (Russian) population.

recedite

Things getting a bit tense now, with less than 2 weeks to go.

Spain's paramilitary national police force have confiscated more than 1.3 million posters, flyers and pamphlets promoting the planned independence referendum by Catalonia's regional government.

An Ciarraioch

recedite wrote: »

Things getting a bit tense now, with less than 2 weeks to go.

Meanwhile, even while blocking media ads and prosecuting officials, the Spanish foreign minister accuses the Catalans of "acting like Nazis"!

https://mobile.twitter.com/business/status/910211063211335680

josip

I can't understand today's decision to detain Catalan officials.
I would have thought that such a move can only increase the percentage in favour of independence?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41331152

An Ciarraioch

Indeed - and blanket coverage with BBC, Guardian, Irish Independent, Examiner etc, so Madrid's international standing is taking a battering, also.

Flying to Barcelona on the 1st of October.  Booked ages ago, had no idea this was happening.  Should I expect any trouble?

An Ciarraioch

Can't imagine why tourists would be affected, just follow standard travel rules such as avoiding demonstrations, etc.

recedite

Deleted User wrote: »

Flying to Barcelona on the 1st of October. Booked ages ago, had no idea this was happening. Should I expect any trouble?

It'll be interesting anyway! I reckon the Guardia Civil (paramilitary police) will impose some kind of street curfew, and some of the tanks may come out of hiding to back them up. So I'm guessing travel out of the airport could be made quite difficult.

recedite

josip wrote: »

I can't understand today's decision to detain Catalan officials.
I would have thought that such a move can only increase the percentage in favour of independence?

Madrid's plan has changed. The plan is now to forcibly prevent the referendum.
So it doesn't matter what people's voting intentions are, if they don't get to vote.

Mancomb Seepgood

It's daft.If they had just ignored the referendum,it would have probably resulted in a big majority for independence on a low turnout,no one would take it seriously,and it would be back to business as usual.This kind of over-reaction by Madrid only makes a breach with Catalonia more likely,not less.

An Ciarraioch

Demonstrations tonight:

https://mobile.twitter.com/324cat/status/910578784922980354

EagererBeaver

Currently living in Barcelona, have been the last couple of years. Interesting times ahead.

What's apparent reading this thread is just how little a ****ing clue many seem to have. This whole situation is a complex mess.

I am the first to admit I know very little about the situation and probably wouldn't have known anything at all if it wasn't for the fact that I am flying there on the 1st.
I'm staying in Salou for the week.  What impact will the upcoming events likely have for me/if any?

EagererBeaver

Deleted User wrote: »

I am the first to admit I know very little about the situation and probably wouldn't have known anything at all if it wasn't for the fact that I am flying there on the 1st.
I'm staying in Salou for the week.  What impact will the upcoming events likely have for me/if any?

None whatsoever except maybe a bit of traffic or possibly some airport delays.

An Ciarraioch

Dáil debate on Catalonia today at 5, so Coveney will have to officially comment on the matter.

An Ciarraioch

Puigdemont article for the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/catalonia-bloack-catalonia-referendum-rights-mariano-rajoy-carles-puigdemont#comments

recedite

A good speech by Puigdemont there, taking the moral high ground by emphasising the peaceful and democratic nature of his stance.

I suspect his pleas to the European Commission will fall on deaf ears, but they are interesting in the light of earlier discussions on this thread about whether the EU had any separate responsibility to its citizens; that is separate to considering the interests of the EU member state supposedly representing them (Spain).

I believe the Spanish government has violated the European charter of fundamental rights. The EU itself is built on these values and is committed to guaranteeing the rights proclaimed in the charter and in the EU treaties. As an EU member state, Spain should respect that. If not, it is the European commission’s duty to intervene.

EagererBeaver

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Puigdemont article for the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/catalonia-bloack-catalonia-referendum-rights-mariano-rajoy-carles-puigdemont#comments

The standard propaganda piece. For the international stage, Puigdemont is only delighted to paint this as the big bad boys in Madrid oppressing and robbing the poor, downtrodden Catalans.

eire4

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Puigdemont article for the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/catalonia-bloack-catalonia-referendum-rights-mariano-rajoy-carles-puigdemont#comments

Have to wonder will the heavy handed Madrid approach stepped up in recent days with the arrests for example back fire on them and actually end up increasing support for Catalan independence.. Which seems a very silly policy IMHO as if they just let the Catalans do their thing and vote the vote would more then likely be a no at least according to previous polls I have seen and likely a solid double digit margin in favour of no. But now I would say Madrids approach will likely only strengthen support for independence.

An Ciarraioch

Eagerer - surely agreeing a vote would increase the likelihood of a No win, and put the issue to bed? That would also lessen the likelihood of any referendum in the Basque Country.

EagererBeaver

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Eagerer - surely agreeing a vote would increase the likelihood of a No win, and put the issue to bed? That would also lessen the likelihood of any referendum in the Basque Country.

Any vote that would declared to be "legally binding" would be illegal. No voters would refuse to accept it and still wouldn't turn out, so no gain for Rajoy doing that.

Other than the fact it could set a precedent, it's too simplistic to draw a line to the Basque question. Basque and Catalan nationalism are really two completely different kettles of fish.

feargale

Catalonia has as much, if not more right to independence than Ireland had in the early 20th century, if the Catalans should choose it. Can anybody demonstrate otherwise here? Aragon was independent of Madrid until 1479, and Catalonia regained its separate status for a time in the 17th century.
The days of holding a people against their will should be over. Madrid's response does not compare favourably with Westminster's treatment of Scotland, can only harden attitudes and may ultimately lead to war.

EagererBeaver

feargale wrote: »

The days of holding a people against their will should be over.

Your realise the people "being held against their will" constitute a minority of the Catalan population?

An Ciarraioch

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Your realise the people "being held against their will" constitute a minority of the Catalan population?

The "overall polls" (including voters from all parties) put Yes ahead more often than not, it would appear:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum%2C_2017

feargale

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Your realise the people "being held against their will" constitute a minority of the Catalan population?

Irrelevant. I said "if they choose." Any civilised government would allow them the chance to choose.

I don't presume to know what they will choose, but as sure as hell events of the last few days will not diminish the yes vote. Some people should pay more attention to Irish history. As was said a century ago, "jails are bad denationalisers."

An Ciarraioch

Spain's High Court brings charges of sedition against all demonstrators:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20170922/431465405340/fiscalia-denuncia-sedicion-referendum-1-o.html

A Little Pony

If it is the will of the people in Catalonia then so be it. Put it to the vote.