Catalan independence referendum, 2017

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Again, your post is incomprehensible.

Yes, it's a bit more complex than the usual " illegal-illegal-illegal " unionist rant, isnt it ?


My question is simple :


Can a legislation text be pass in single majority in the Parliement ?
if yes, which one ?

If yes, what are the legal requirements ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Yes, it's a bit more complex than the usual " illegal-illegal-illegal " unionist rant, isnt it ?


My question is simple :


Can a legislation text be pass in single majority in the Parliement ?
if yes, which one ?

If yes, what are the legal requirements ?

If you want a legal opinion then go and see and solicitor but the onus is on you to change the laws if you don’t like them not for me to prove a negative.

The reality is that article 56 requires a 2/3 majority to pass any legislation on independence. This is an objectionable fact that you cannot get around no matter how hard you try to explain.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

If you want a legal opinion then go and see and solicitor but the onus is on you to change the laws if you don’t like them not for me to prove a negative.

The reality is that article 56 requires a 2/3 majority to pass any legislation on independence. This is an objectionable fact that you cannot get around no matter how hard you try to explain.

Retreating again, then ...


By answering this simple question, you will show us that you have a bit of knowlegde in Catalan Laws, and you have enough background to judge that " the Parliement broke the rules", as you said. This will show us that you understand the way a legal text can be pass in the Parliement.



So, can you tell us this ?


Can a legislation text be pass in single majority in the Parliement ?
if yes, which one ?

If yes, what are the legal requirements ?

saabsaab

I have a better idea of what Catalonia is dealing with trying to get self-determination peacefully from Madrid. Refusal to accept that this won't disappear.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

I have a better idea of what Catalonia is dealing with trying to get self-determination peacefully from Madrid. Refusal to accept that this won't disappear.

Self determination doesn’t apply to Catalonia. Spain’s constitution, like any other European constitution, doesn’t recognise the right to self determination of regions.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Retreating again, then ...


By answering this simple question, you will show us that you have a bit of knowlegde in Catalan Laws, and you have enough background to judge that " the Parliement broke the rules", as you said.

This will show us that you know a bit more than ONE article I gave you, and that you understand the way a legal text can be pass in the Parliement.

It will show us that you are well aware of the existence of a law text named Reglament del Parlament . ( Do you ??? )


So, can you tell us this ?


Can a legislation text be pass in single majority in the Parliement ?
if yes, which one ?

If yes, what are the legal requirements ?

Just so I understand the question. Are you saying the referendum on Oct 1 was legal, the results binding and you want me to prove otherwise?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Self determination doesn’t apply to Catalonia. Spain’s constitution, like any other European constitution, doesn’t recognise the right to self determination of regions.

Another easy excuse to kill democracy ... :rolleyes:



There is examples of European countries that don't have the right to self determination written in their Constitution, but nevertheless recognize this right for their population, and act accordingly ( that mean organizing a referundum and respecting the results ) .


Why can't Spain do the same ? Is it a " consolidated democracy " as said Sanchez ?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Just so I understand the question. Are you saying the referendum on Oct 1 was legal, the results binding and you want me to prove otherwise?

No.
Read again.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Another easy excuse to kill democracy ... :rolleyes:



There is exemples of European countries that don't have the right to self determination written in their Constitution, but nevertheless recognize this right for their population, and act accordingly ( that mean organizing an official referendum and respecting the results ) .


So it's not a question of Constitution or law texts, but a question of political will and respect of democracy.

And sadly, Spain has currently none of the two...

But you refused to respect democracy when you held an illegal referendum and declared independence.

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Self determination doesn’t apply to Catalonia. Spain’s constitution, like any other European constitution, doesn’t recognise the right to self determination of regions.

That is the nub of your argument stripped away of all talk of legalities. If this is Madrid's view, Catalans will have to fight for their nation, like Ireland 100 years ago.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

That is the nub of your argument stripped away of all talk of legalities. If this is Madrid's view, Catalans will have to fight for their nation, like Ireland 100 years ago.

It you’re ignoring that the majority of people in Catalonia and Spain want to Catalonia to remain part of Spain.

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

It you’re ignoring that the majority of people in Catalonia and Spain want to Catalonia to remain part of Spain.

The Dail in 1919 ignored the will of a majority in Britain too!

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

But you refused to respect democracy when you held an illegal referendum and declared independence.

That is not true, and I don't think that the Catalans have any lessons on democracy to receive from a partisan of a country which :


- have as an head of state a not-elected person

- have currently 9 political prisoners in jail
- use police force against citizens who wants to exercise their civics rights ( voting and protesting )

- have the highest number of artists in jail in the world ( 2017 data)
- bribes foreign countries to achieve political goals ( Lithuania 2017 )
- bribes universities to prevent them to host talks ( EU - 2018 )
-never condemn their fascist past and still hold in their government nostalgics from this period.
- refuses any form of dialogue with their political opponents

- refuses any democratic solutions to a political problem
- allows a fascist party in a Court that judge democratic persons ( the opposite of Nuremberg ! :eek: )
- etc.etc...


A bit of decency, please !... :rolleyes:

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

It you’re ignoring that the majority of people in Catalonia and Spain want to Catalonia to remain part of Spain.

It is not up to the people of Spain to decide of the destiny of the Catalans.


The same way that only the Scots decided on their destiny in their referendum , not the full UK.
Or that Brexit has only be decided by the UK citizens, not the full Europe.


And as shown and proved already, the majority of the Catalans wants to leave Spain .

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

It is not up to the people of Spain to decide of the destiny of the Catalans.


The same way that only the Scots decided on their destiny in their referendum , not the full UK.
Or that Brexit has only be decided by the UK citizens, not the full Europe.


And as shown and proved already, the majority of the Catalans wants to leave Spain .

You can keep repeating the same old tired nonsense but the majority of people in Catalonua want to remain part of Spain and Yes it is up to the people of Spain to decide if you want to change the borders of their country.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

The Dail in 1919 ignored the will of a majority in Britain too!

How do you know, most people in Britain know very little about Ireland and look what Ireland has been through for the last 100 years, not a good example to follow.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

That is not true, and I don't think that the Catalans have any lessons on democracy to receive from a partisan of a country which :


- have as an head of state a not-elected person

- have currently 9 political prisoners in jail
- use police force against citizens who wants to exercise their civics rights ( voting and protesting )

- have the highest number of artists in jail in the world ( 2017 data)

- bribes foreign countries to achieve political goals ( Lithuania 2017 )
- bribes universities to prevent them to host talks ( EU - 2018 )
-never condemn their fascist past and still hold in their government nostalgics from this period.

- refuses any form of dialogue with their political opponents

- refuses any democratic solutions to a political problem

- allows a fascist party in a Court that judge democratic persons ( the opposite of Nuremberg ! :eek: )
- etc.etc...


A bit of decency, please !... :rolleyes:
.
.
.

You should report all those crimes to the Mossos. How oppressed.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You can keep repeating the same old tired nonsense but the majority of people in Catalonua want to remain part of Spain

Please state that you are here offering an opinion , and don't present this opinion as a "fact".

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Yes it is up to the people of Spain to decide if you want to change the borders of their country.

No, it never happens like this, and there is no cases in Europe recently that had proceed that way . That is, once again, an anti-democratic trick to prevent the right of self-determination of the Catalans .

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You should report all those crimes to the Mossos.

For your information, it's not the Mossos who are dealing with this type of complains .:rolleyes:

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

How oppressed.

Easy to say from the comfort of your home, enjoying all the freedom you can have .



You forgot that civil rights defenders ( like the Catalans are now for their rights ) had to fight years and years , often violently against their institutions for all the basic rights you benefit now !



Are you spitting on their memory the same way you make laugh of the Catalans ?



( Think of that next time you'll go voting with your family...):)

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

For your information, it's not the Mossos who are dealing with this type of complains .:rolleyes:

But don't worry and be patient , you will hear back about that when the European Court of Human Rights will take care of that ...


Easy to say from the comfort of your home, enjoying all the freedom you can have .

You forgot that civil rights defenders ( like the Catalans are now for their rights ) had to fight years and years , often violently against their institutions for all the basic rights you benefit now !

Are you spitting on their memory the same way you make laugh of the Catalans ?

( Think of that next time you'll go voting with your family...):)

Yes all those privileged Catalans in Pedralbes having their right oppressed.

But I suppose that’s easy for you to say sitting in the West of Ireland.

bertie 56

Here some interesting data about the current situation in Catalonia.


( poll from Òmnibus - Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió - September 2019 - 1200 representatives persons in Catalonia )


Please note that these numbers are just a poll, and therefore should not considered as the truth, but more as an idea, a tendency .


About the political incarcerations:
There is a clear consensus: only 18% of Catalans consider the jail of their politicians to be just, 14% do not see it clear and more than two-thirds of Catalans believe imprisonment is unfair .



About the imprisonment of political prisoners , by political parties :
Only two hard-line Spanish nationalist parties, the Partido Popular y Ciutadans, support the imprisonment of political prisoners judged by the Supreme Court. In the pro-independence parties, there is virtual unanimity against imprisonment, as was predictable. But the most surprising fact is the position of the leftist unionist parties. 92% of the voters of the Commons and 58% of PSC voters consider imprisonment to be unfair.



About the self- determination :


There is a broad consensus in favor of self-determination. This consensus, of course, includes all the independentists, but also a significant portion of unionists. In other words, most Catalans want to decide through a referendum.

Only 21.2% of Catalans oppose a referendum. More than two thirds go for it. And if we exclude 11% who have no opinion formed, the favorable percentage is 76%.

The question was : "A referendum should be made in Catalonia for Catalans to decide what relation do they want between Catalonia and Spain ' Here you can see the results:




Per political parties :



It is worth noting that a large number of voters of unionist parties are in favor of a referendum. For example, less than 10% of the Communs are opposed and between 50% -50% of the socialist voters.





Conclusion : The Catalans are overwhelmingly opposed to the jail and exile of their elected politicians, and they are also overwhelmingly favorable to a referendum on self-determination

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Please state that you are here offering an opinion , and don't present this opinion as a "fact".





No, it never happens like this, and there is no cases in Europe recently that had proceed that way . That is, once again, an anti-democratic trick to prevent the right of self-determination of the Catalans .

There is no right to self determination in Spain. Self determination is a legal concept that doesn’t apply to Catalonia but that’s another inconvenient fact you choose to ignore.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Here some interesting data about the current situation in Catalonia.


( poll from Òmnibus - Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió - September 2019 - 1200 representatives persons in Catalonia )


Please note that these numbers are just a poll, and therefore should not considered as the truth, but more as an idea, a tendency .


About the political incarcerations:
There is a clear consensus: only 18% of Catalans consider the jail of their politicians to be just, 14% do not see it clear and more than two-thirds of Catalans believe imprisonment is unfair .



About the imprisonment of political prisoners , by political parties :
Only two hard-line Spanish nationalist parties, the Partido Popular y Ciutadans, support the imprisonment of political prisoners judged by the Supreme Court. In the pro-independence parties, there is virtual unanimity against imprisonment, as was predictable. But the most surprising fact is the position of the leftist unionist parties. 92% of the voters of the Commons and 58% of PSC voters consider imprisonment to be unfair.



About the self- determination :


There is a broad consensus in favor of self-determination. This consensus, of course, includes all the independentists, but also a significant portion of unionists. In other words, most Catalans want to decide through a referendum.

Only 21.2% of Catalans oppose a referendum. More than two thirds go for it. And if we exclude 11% who have no opinion formed, the favorable percentage is 76%.

The question was : "A referendum should be made in Catalonia for Catalans to decide what relation do they want between Catalonia and Spain ' Here you can see the results:




Per political parties :



It is worth noting that a large number of voters of unionist parties are in favor of a referendum. For example, less than 10% of the Communs are opposed and between 50% -50% of the socialist voters.





Conclusion : The Catalans are overwhelmingly opposed to the jail and exile of their elected politicians, and they are also overwhelmingly favorable to a referendum on self-determination

You’re getting the words self determination and self delusion mixed up.

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You’re getting the words self determination and self delusion mixed up.

I predict that without the release of the political prisoners and debate there will be civil unrest in Catalonia perhaps mass non-cooperation with Madrid and a consequent greater crackdown on activists. This may lead to violent counter reactions (perhaps wanted by Madrid) to impose greater direct control. After a period of great unrest the parties will try to agree on a settlement. Sounds familiar to Irish ears. Is it too much to hope for a settlement without the violence and upheaval.

v638sg7k1a92bx

There’s no shortage of monarchies in Europe

bertie 56

saabsaab wrote: »

I predict that without the release of the political prisoners and debate there will be civil unrest in Catalonia perhaps mass non-cooperation with Madrid and a consequent greater crackdown on activists. This may lead to violent counter reactions (perhaps wanted by Madrid) to impose greater direct control. After a period of great unrest the parties will try to agree on a settlement. Sounds familiar to Irish ears. Is it too much to hope for a settlement without the violence and upheaval.

Spot on, I agree with that.


2 precisions :


- The crackdown on activists has started. Over 200 people has been arrested so far .
There is now a fear that the charges will include " terrorism ", the same charge they are applying to the pacific movement " Tsunami Democràtic " , or lately with 7 members of the CDR - Comitès de Defensa de la República - who has been charged under terrorism too .

I bet this will be a remake of the " Alsasua case " ( where some youths got up to 13 years of jail for a pub brawl , with the " terrorism " charge in the prosecution , in Basque Country )


And that could lead either in a cycle of action -> reaction , or provocation -> repression -> mobilization.


- About the violence :

You say " violence perhaps wanted by Madrid " .
I say " violence obviously wanted by Madrid " .

To be honest, I don't think Madrid has any interest at keeping the mobilization peacefull .
The history of management of conflicts by Spain shows that Madrid is always more comfortable when there is violence in front .

They will have then the perfect excuse to decapitate again the Catalan Government with the 155 article.

In the streets, now that everybody has a camera in their pocket, it's easy to prove the undermining work of undercover Police forces to provoke and spread violence . That is a known fact now.

The behavior of the Police ( CNP & BRIMO ) is well documented too , and shows that " something has to happen ".

Everybody with a bit of experience of "heated demonstrations " will say the same : the mess starts when the police wants it .

In the rare cases when the Police force hasn't intervened much ( one week ago during the week-end ) the things went smoothly .


Hope the constructive dialogue arrives before it's too late...
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.
.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

There is no right to self determination in Spain. Self determination is a legal concept that doesn’t apply to Catalonia but that’s another inconvenient fact you choose to ignore.

Self -determination is a RIGHT , recognized at international level.

Same as being able to vote peacefully or being able to take your seat when democratically elected.
It surprises no one here that Spain don't respect it.
:rolleyes:

bertie 56

The third European Arrest Warrant has arrived in Belgium from Spain, asking for the extradition of Puigdemont.

The process has been delayed since Spain, for the second time, got the Warrant refused for the reason of it being written in Spanish :rolleyes: ( only the 3 Belgium official languages or English are accepted ).


Coming with the Arrest Warrant were the first threads against Belgium :



" The acting vice-president of the Spanish government, Carmen Calvo, has threatened Belgium saying that her executive “will not understand” that they don’t extradite Catalan exiled president Carles Puigdemont to Spanish justice. If they don’t, Spain will take “decisions” that might affect the “day to day collaboration between Spain and Belgium”.


https://english.vilaweb.cat/noticies/spanish-government-threatens-belgium-if-they-dont-extradite-puigdemont/ ( ENG )



https://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/spain-warns-belgium-it-will-take-decisions-if-it-fails-to-hand-over-puigdemont ( ENG )


https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20191029/471271656954/gobierno-belgica-carles-puigdemont-euroorden-entrega.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_content=politica ( SPAN )

johnnyskeleton

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You’re getting the words self determination and self delusion mixed up.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

There’s no shortage of monarchies in Europe

Mod note:

If you want to engage in debate, please refrain from these one liners and engage with other posters!

eire4

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I never said Catalonia is a nation so why do you expect me to prove it?

As for a referendum on independence, they could have a legal referendum tomorrow but first need to pass a bill in the Catalan parliament with a 2/3 majority. This is what they have been unable to from the start and which kicked off the whole crisis because independence politicians have consistently broken their own laws.

I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that.

Beyond that I have consistently said that I believe the 2 sides need to sit down and negotiate and come to a resolution through negotiations. Sadly Madrid currently and for some time has seemed more interested in taking a heavy handed approach which has just inflamed the situation. As for any referendum polls suggest that it would be defeated so what are you worried about. A defeated referendum would significantly strengthen Madrid's hand in any negotiations that will hopefully come to pass sooner rather then later.