Catalan independence referendum, 2017

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

It's very simple. Does anyone know which party has the most number of seats in the Catalan parliament?

You could make the effort to go and get the number :rolleyes:


Anyway, here it is :


C's : 36 seats .


I still fail to see what is the relation with the original question :

bertie 56 wrote: »

When was the last time Unionism won something in Catalonia ?

bertie 56

is_that_so wrote: »

Polls suggest that they do, in larger numbers.

Please show some facts ( trusted numbers , included margin of errors )
Thanks.

is_that_so wrote: »

The self-determination line here is clearly linked to an assumption that only Catalans live in Catalonia. Its already a minority by 10%-12%. That is falling with both internal migration and from outside the country.

Can you please define what you call " Catalans " ?

saabsaab

As with most countries I would suggest a Catalan is someone born within its borders?


At this stage after much comment going back and forth and not really getting anywhere I am going to put up a separate thread with a poll to see where those on boards are on this issue.

eire4

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The legal process to hold a referendum already exists so what exactly is there to negotiate? Just like we do in Ireland when we hold a referendum, it first needs to pass in the Dail before the referendum is put to the general population. The Generalitat which is the parliament in Catalonia needs to do the same and not decide that because they cannot pass legislation in their own parliament that they are going to break the rules and decide to hold a referendum anyway. A referendum that had zero oversight where they slept in the polling stations, kept the ballot boxes in their homes, where people could vote as many times as they wanted and could even vote online. Imagine the pro life politicians in the Dail decided that they wanted to hold another referendum on abortion and because they couldn’t get enough votes in the Dail they decided to hold a referendum anyway under the same circumstances I just described and then declare the results legally binding, would you think that would be acceptable?. What part of that do people not seem to get their head around? The route to independence already exists but it has to be done legally.

I must say very telling you ignore the first part of my post:

"I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "


As to the second part IMHO I again reiterate that what is needed is for the 2 sides to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the situation. Madrid's heavy handed approach has only inflamed the situation. The 2 sides need to come together and negotiate. It is interesting you focus on legal technicalities about a referendum when the only mention I made of having one was to mention that polls suggest it would be defeated so what are you afraid of and that it would likely strengthen Madrids hand in any negotiations if they held and defeated a referendum. But you fail to even address my actual opinion that the 2 sides need to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the situation. Again also very telling.

v638sg7k1a92bx

eire4 wrote: »

I must say very telling you ignore the first part of my post:

"I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "


As to the second part IMHO I again reiterate that what is needed is for the 2 sides to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the situation. Madrid's heavy handed approach has only inflamed the situation. The 2 sides need to come together and negotiate. It is interesting you focus on legal technicalities about a referendum when the only mention I made of having one was to mention that polls suggest it would be defeated so what are you afraid of and that it would likely strengthen Madrids hand in any negotiations if they held and defeated a referendum. But you fail to even address my actual opinion that the 2 sides need to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the situation as a step that badly needs to happen. Again also very telling.

Why do you think I'm obliged to reply your ill informed opinions? You talk about Madrid's heavy handedness but recent violence is down to the protesters, the police have been quite restrained. It's also a different government in Spain than it was two years ago, so a different government in Spain but same culprits in Catalonia and yet it's always Madrid's fault with no recognition, not even a mention, of the illegal actions of the independence advocates and politicians. You talk as if "Madrid" can wave a magic wand and give something that they don't have. As the current socialist president and the previous conservative president have said is that any discussions with the local government in Catalonia must be within the scope of the constitution which the people in Catalonia voted in favour of by 80%. What part of that seems unreasonable?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

You could make the effort to go and get the number :rolleyes:

Anyway, here it is :

C's : 36 seats .

I still fail to see what is the relation with the original question :

So that means they won.

You asked "when was the last time unionism won anything in Catalonia". C's won the most seats in Catalonia which means they won.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

At this stage after much comment going back and forth and not really getting anywhere I am going to put up a separate thread with a poll to see where those on boards are on this issue.

That was great.

saabsaab

Not heavy handed?



"Several people were injured as police baton-charged protesters on the concourse of Terminal 1, the main international terminal. Foam bullets were reported to have been fired and video emerged of national and the regional Catalan police beating demonstrators and attacking journalists.
Thirteen people received medical attention and more than 60 flights were cancelled.
Tsunami Democràtic later claimed to be trying to use cars to bring Madrid’s Barajas airport to a similar standstill.
On Monday morning, Catalonia’s former vice-president Oriol Junqueras was convicted of sedition and misuse of public funds and sentenced to 13 years in prison. He was also banned from holding public office for 13 years."

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

Not heavy handed?



"Several people were injured as police baton-charged protesters on the concourse of Terminal 1, the main international terminal. Foam bullets were reported to have been fired and video emerged of national and the regional Catalan police beating demonstrators and attacking journalists.
Thirteen people received medical attention and more than 60 flights were cancelled.
Tsunami Democràtic later claimed to be trying to use cars to bring Madrid’s Barajas airport to a similar standstill.
On Monday morning, Catalonia’s former vice-president Oriol Junqueras was convicted of sedition and misuse of public funds and sentenced to 13 years in prison. He was also banned from holding public office for 13 years."

It's a riot, what do you think is going to happen? But what has any of this got to do with Madrid?

saabsaab

Riot? 'beating demonstrators and attacking journalists'?


Madrid has nothing to do with this?

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

Riot? 'beating demonstrators and attacking journalists'?


Madrid has nothing to do with this?

They’re rioting in the streets, what are you talking about?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So that means they won.

You asked "when was the last time Unionism won anything in Catalonia". C's won the most seats in Catalonia which means they won.

Ermm , no .


It's worse even, when you consider that " Unionism " is C's and only C's , as you do in your example.



In this case , the result is :

Independentists : 2.079.340 votes - 70 seats

Unionists : 1,109,732 votes - 36 seats .


Still not good ...


And again , nothing changes, they stay a minority , as they are now.


Which mean that , in the Parliament , every vote they do, with or without their group : they loose !



You call that " winning " ? Ah well, if this can boost their ego, they will need some badly after the 10N ! ...:D

saabsaab

Those lines are Quoted from recent reports.



Irish people don't like empires and bullies. Even as a partitioned small nation, we strive to play our part in the world continuing to work always for the cause of true freedom and for peace and understanding between all nations


Posters here will know what I am talking about.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

Those lines are Quoted from recent reports.

Irish people don't like empires and bullies. Even as a partitioned small nation, we strive to play our part in the world continuing to work always for the cause of true freedom and for peace and understanding between all nations

Posters here will know what I am talking about.

What lines and what reports?

You do realise that Catalonia’s push for independence is based on a nationalist etho - linguistic superiority? Blaming all their problems on those people over there, where have we seen that before. Nothing to do with Ireland’s push for independence. This is a group of people who have made up notions that they are better than the rest of the people in Spain.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What lines and what reports?

You do realise that Catalonia’s push for independence is based on a nationalist etho - linguistic superiority? Blaming all their problems on those people over there, where have we seen that before. Nothing to do with Ireland’s push for independence. This is a group of people who have made up notions that they are better than the rest of the people in Spain.

What's " etho " for ? Ethology ? " scientific and objective study of animal behaviour " ?

bertie 56

saabsaab wrote: »

Not heavy handed?



"Several people were injured as police baton-charged protesters on the concourse of Terminal 1, the main international terminal. Foam bullets were reported to have been fired and video emerged of national and the regional Catalan police beating demonstrators and attacking journalists.
Thirteen people received medical attention and more than 60 flights were cancelled.
Tsunami Democràtic later claimed to be trying to use cars to bring Madrid’s Barajas airport to a similar standstill.
On Monday morning, Catalonia’s former vice-president Oriol Junqueras was convicted of sedition and misuse of public funds and sentenced to 13 years in prison. He was also banned from holding public office for 13 years."

Yes , heavy handed alright .

The sinister account 2 days ago was : 209 people in jail y 623 persons wounded .
As in 2017 the day of the referendum, a website keeps tracks of the main videos of the police(s) intervention .


( I post the link here not too promote violence or in a morbid purpose, but as information )

https://catalanrepression.github.io/

EagererBeaver

saabsaab wrote: »

Those lines are Quoted from recent reports.



Irish people don't like empires and bullies. Even as a partitioned small nation, we strive to play our part in the world continuing to work always for the cause of true freedom and for peace and understanding between all nations


Posters here will know what I am talking about.

You don't even know what you're talking about.

marieholmfan

saabsaab wrote: »

Those lines are Quoted from recent reports.



Irish people don't like empires and bullies. Even as a partitioned small nation, we strive to play our part in the world continuing to work always for the cause of true freedom and for peace and understanding between all nations


Posters here will know what I am talking about.

Well said.




If Catalonia must fight;
Catalonia will be right!

v638sg7k1a92bx

marieholmfan wrote: »

Well said.

If Catalonia must fight;
Catalonia will be right!

You could apply the same to Spain
If Spain must fight;
Spain will be right!

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You could apply the same to Spain
If Spain must fight;
Spain will be right!

Correction Spain will be wrong!


Funny how posters immediately recognized 'the bully' in my post.

saabsaab

bertie 56 wrote: »

Yes , heavy handed alright .



( I post the link here not too promote violence or in a morbid purpose, but as information )

https://catalanrepression.github.io/

Thanks for that link should be shown to the Irish public to inform them of what is going on. An EU state targeting journalists!

bertie 56

Good piece of journalism here ,in the Irish Times 2 days ago , that could explain some positions against the Catalan democratic movement .



" Spain’s reckoning with its past shows Francoism is far from dead .

Reburial of dictator’s remains has raised questions about the legacy of his regime "


" Ordinary Spaniards are seemingly as split as their politicians on the exhumation question. A poll published by El Mundo newspaper this week showed that 43 per cent of people were in favour and 36 per cent were against. The same study showed that attitudes tended to follow party lines: left-leaning voters were more likely to back the initiative, while those on the right were more likely to oppose it."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/spain-s-reckoning-with-its-past-shows-francoism-is-far-from-dead-1.4061491

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

Correction Spain will be wrong!


Funny how posters immediately recognized 'the bully' in my post.

You haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. You cannot put forward a single argument as to why you think Catalonia should be independent. Not one.

EagererBeaver

bertie 56 wrote: »

Good piece of journalism here ,in the Irish Times 2 days ago , that could explain some positions against the Catalan democratic movement

It's a very good article. Got nothing to do with Catalan independence though. This ongoing attempt to claim exclusive (or at least foremost) victimhood of Franco, his regime and the Civil War by Catalan nationalists is disgraceful.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Good piece of journalism here ,in the Irish Times 2 days ago , that could explain some positions against the Catalan democratic movement .

" Spain’s reckoning with its past shows Francoism is far from dead .

Reburial of dictator’s remains has raised questions about the legacy of his regime "

" Ordinary Spaniards are seemingly as split as their politicians on the exhumation question. A poll published by El Mundo newspaper this week showed that 43 per cent of people were in favour and 36 per cent were against. The same study showed that attitudes tended to follow party lines: left-leaning voters were more likely to back the initiative, while those on the right were more likely to oppose it."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/spain-s-reckoning-with-its-past-shows-francoism-is-far-from-dead-1.4061491

Interesting article but nothing to do with any points you're trying to make other than to suggest that people who don't agree with you are fascists.

bertie 56

EagererBeaver wrote: »

It's a very good article.

Thank you .

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Got nothing to do with Catalan independence though.

I've post it for few reasons :

- a bit of knowledge in the thread is sometimes missing . And it's always good to remember the basics.

- It comes from an Irish paper . Although you can find the exact same in a Catalan paper , this at least prevent the usual " Catalan paper = propaganda " too often heard here.
- The Catalan movement is dealing day after day with Spain and with the Spanish .This article is about the current legacy of the Francoism in Spain today .So, yes, it has everything to do with the Catalan movement, yes.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

This ongoing attempt to claim exclusive (or at least foremost) victimhood of Franco, his regime and the Civil War by Catalan nationalists is disgraceful.

I partially agree with you . No, the Catalans don't have the exclusivity . Everybody in Spain has been affected by Franco's fascism ( and still is today) at different level. It is the Catalans we are hearing talking about that now because Catalonia is " the big thing " in Spain at the moment.
But I remember perfectly hearing the same in Euskal Herria when it was " their turn " in the past ...

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Interesting article

Thank you.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

nothing to do with any points you're trying to make other than to suggest that people who don't agree with you are fascists.

Same answer to you than to EagererBeaver , adding this :


It's never good to put everybody in one same box . That's call Hispanophobia ( or Catalanophobia , that exists as well ! ).


As I said " that could explain some positions against the Catalan democratic movement " . I never " suggested that people who don't agree with me are fascists " as you say .

I sometimes met perfect democratic people who are against Catalonia Independence, who I'm able to talk with and even jokes, and I respect their positions, once they are honest . They are able to understand the Catalans position too , without rejecting everything that comes from Catalonia . No Catalanophobia here.



But sometimes too, I find the sneaky fascist that only dreams of a new " March 1938 in Barcelona " . And Spain has plenty of them ... You find them at every unionist demonstration, like last Sunday in Barcelona ( Vox , Falange , neo nazis , etc...) .

But at least these ones don't hide...



And in between you have the others. The ones who starts a sentence saying " I'm not fascist , but... " , finishing the sentence with a fascist argument.

The ones who don't condemn the Spanish fascist past, who abstain or vote against the "Historical Memory Law", who call Primo de Rivera " a victim " , etc, etc... And sadly, Spain has plenty of them too ( Cf the article cited ).

saabsaab

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. You cannot put forward a single argument as to why you think Catalonia should be independent. Not one.

The Catalans could give you many reasons and they have an historical and linguistic basis. That they want it is reason enough for me. Judging from your previous posts I don't expect that you would accept any given reason in any case.

bertie 56

On the digital front line , Madrid is now trying to get the advantage back .


The main Tsunami Democràtic website is not accessible anymore from Spain . ( still OK from abroad , and of course OK in Spain with a VPN ).

This doesn't affect much the Tsunami Democràtic actions, since their main system is with Telegram ( much harder to stop, apparently ).
GitHub, a Microsoft company, has published the Guardia Civil notice asking the shutdown.
You can read it here, along with other notices coming from Russia and China , 2 other " consolidated democracies ", as says Sanchez about Spain.
https://github.com/github/gov-takedowns


This close down has been asked for " terrorist reasons " . The application having around 350.000 users, can we decently think that's 5% of the Catalonia population ( including babies and unionists ) are terrorists ?

So, Tsunami Democràtic website down, but the Fundación Nacional Francisco Franco website still up and running ( and still receiving indirect public money ... )

saabsaab

bertie 56 wrote: »

On the digital front line , Madrid is now trying to get the advantage back .


The main Tsunami Democràtic website is not accessible anymore from Spain . ( still OK from abroad , and of course OK in Spain with a VPN ).

This doesn't affect much the Tsunami Democràtic actions, since their main system is with Telegram ( much harder to stop, apparently ).
GitHub, a Microsoft company, has published the Guardia Civil notice asking the shutdown.
You can read it here, along with other notices coming from Russia and China , 2 other " consolidated democracies ", as says Sanchez about Spain.
https://github.com/github/gov-takedowns


This close down has been asked for " terrorist reasons " . The application having around 350.000 users, can we decently think that's 5% of the Catalonia population ( including babies and unionists ) are terrorists ?

It does not surprise anyone. Target the journalists and then the other media. Not very democratic.