Catalan independence referendum, 2017

eire4

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Why do you think I'm obliged to reply your ill informed opinions? You talk about Madrid's heavy handedness but recent violence is down to the protesters, the police have been quite restrained. It's also a different government in Spain than it was two years ago, so a different government in Spain but same culprits in Catalonia and yet it's always Madrid's fault with no recognition, not even a mention, of the illegal actions of the independence advocates and politicians. You talk as if "Madrid" can wave a magic wand and give something that they don't have. As the current socialist president and the previous conservative president have said is that any discussions with the local government in Catalonia must be within the scope of the constitution which the people in Catalonia voted in favour of by 80%. What part of that seems unreasonable?

And there we have it. Someone disagrees with your viewpoint and so they are ill informed. Very telling response and outlook.

Of course your not obliged to respond to me at all but you have once again chosen to do just that and once again you have chosen to completely ignore the first part of what I posted:

"I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "

Once again you ignore that.


I will say once again as I have said before the 2 sides need to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the current situation. You on the other had seem to have no interest in the 2 sides sitting down to talk and resolve their differences. Very sad that because that does indeed fit in with the obdurate and heavy handed approach we have seen from Madrid for some time now and as long as that remains the case we will likely only see more violence and problems which is not good for anybody.

As for the scope of any discussions they should be completely open with no preconditions. Interesting that you yourself support Madrid's heavy handed approach demanding pre conditions to any talks. So to answer your question the pre conditions from Madrid to talks are unreasonable.

bertie 56

eire4 wrote: »

( ... ) I will say once again as I have said before the 2 sides need to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the current situation.

I don't see it happening any time soon . Despite the calls of Torra and of the independentist crowd for starting dialogue ( see images of last mobilisation around the PSOE meeting in Barcelona yesterday ) , Sanchez has choose to make fun of the Catalan President :


"Ahora, aparentemente me ha salido un amigo nuevo que se llama señor Torra y me llama todos los días a la Moncloa. Me escribe cartas, me llama por teléfono..."


"Now, apparently I have a new friend named Mr. Torra and he calls me every day to Moncloa. He writes me letters, calls me on the phone..."



How pathetic and irresponsible !

EagererBeaver

saabsaab wrote: »

It does not surprise anyone. Target the journalists and then the other media. Not very democratic.

It's not journalism. It's not media.

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

It does not surprise anyone. Target the journalists and then the other media. Not very democratic.

Hipster millennials on their phones are not journalists.

saabsaab

EagererBeaver wrote: »

It's not journalism. It's not media.

Please explain. Reported in the Observer newspaper! What do you call media?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Hipster millennials on their phones are not journalists.

I'm a bit intrigued by the fact that you are now considering that El Pais journalists are "hipster millennials" .;)


Here is the denunciation of the violent arrest of one of them by the Spanish Police , made by one platform of the Council of Europe :


" On Friday, 18 October 2019, at 22:30, the Spanish National Police violently arrested the photographer Albert Garcia, while he was photographing another violent arrest for the Spanish daily "El Pais". Other journalists present heard the police shout "The camera!", before they arrested Albert Garcia. The journalist wore an armband clearly identifying him as a journalist. He was pushed to the ground and his hands were handcuffed behind his back. The police then threatened journalists who had gathered in front of the national police headquarters in La Verneda, Barcelona, to demand the release of Albert Garcia: "We are policemen and we can do what we want. We are the law". Albert Garcia was finally released at 03:30 in the morning."


https://www.coe.int/en/web/media-freedom/detail-alert?p_p_id=sojdashboard_WAR_coesojportlet&p_p_lifecycle=0&p_p_col_id=column-4&p_p_col_pos=2&p_p_col_count=3&_sojdashboard_WAR_coesojportlet_alertId=53547743



In total so far ( today's number ) 71 journalists has been hurt at doing their job covering the events.


‘The fully unprecedented number of attacks on journalists on Friday and the arrest of a photojournalist leads to think of a deliberate ploy against informants. These series of actions certify that what has been witnessed in the past few days is an unprecedented attack on the right to inform,” read the statement by Group Barnils.

https://www.spainenglish.com/2019/10/20/police-journalists-catalonia-riots/
( article from the 20th of Oct ).

EagererBeaver

saabsaab wrote: »

Please explain. Reported in the Observer newspaper! What do you call media?

The conversation was about tsunami democratic's method of organisation, primarily regarding using a particular app.

That's not the media.

Get it?

eire4

bertie 56 wrote: »

I don't see it happening any time soon . Despite the calls of Torra and of the independentist crowd for starting dialogue ( see images of last mobilisation around the PSOE meeting in Barcelona yesterday ) , Sanchez has choose to make fun of the Catalan President :


"Ahora, aparentemente me ha salido un amigo nuevo que se llama señor Torra y me llama todos los días a la Moncloa. Me escribe cartas, me llama por teléfono..."


"Now, apparently I have a new friend named Mr. Torra and he calls me every day to Moncloa. He writes me letters, calls me on the phone..."



How pathetic and irresponsible !

Sadly your probably right on that. I have seen no indication from Madrid that they are interested in sitting down with no pre conditions and negotiating with the Catalans to resolve the current situation which IMHO is exactly what is needed.

v638sg7k1a92bx

eire4 wrote: »

Sadly your probably right on that. I have seen no indication from Madrid that they are interested in sitting down with no pre conditions and negotiating with the Catalans to resolve the current situation which IMHO is exactly what is needed.

Resolve what exactly?

HalloweenJack

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Resolve what exactly?

There is a substantial group of Spanish citizens who feel that their voices aren't being heard. Surely the Government should give them a chance to address it?

After all, the current Government is running on a progressive campaign and they are likely to again be the biggest party in the upcoming general election. I don't think ignoring a section of your society who feel that their wishes aren't being addressed is progressive. Just repeating that something is illegal and refusing to budge on the matter isn't progressive.

v638sg7k1a92bx

HalloweenJack wrote: »

There is a substantial group of Spanish citizens who feel that their voices aren't being heard. Surely the Government should give them a chance to address it?

After all, the current Government is running on a progressive campaign and they are likely to again be the biggest party in the upcoming general election. I don't think ignoring a section of your society who feel that their wishes aren't being addressed is progressive. Just repeating that something is illegal and refusing to budge on the matter isn't progressive.

All I could see in that post was the progressive. “Oh yes, progressive is a cool word I’ll use that”

What about ignoring the section of society (the majority) in Catalonia who want to remain part of Spain or is that not progressive enough?

HalloweenJack

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

All I could see in that post wasn’t the progressive. “Oh yes, progressive is a cool word I’ll use that”

I live in Spain. I was watching the news last night and saw Sanchez talking about a progressive agenda in his campaign soeech. Its the word PSOE are using in their electoral campaign so they're the ones who think its cool.

What about ignoring the section of society (the majority) in Catalonia who want to remain part of Spain or is that not progressive enough?

Settle the matter by having a legally-binding vote on the issue. If the majority in Catalonia want to remain a part of Spain, that'll be that.

Even this crackpot Tory government gave Soctland a chance to decide on the issue. Why can't Spain do the same?

v638sg7k1a92bx

eire4 wrote: »

And there we have it. Someone disagrees with your viewpoint and so they are ill informed. Very telling response and outlook.

Of course your not obliged to respond to me at all but you have once again chosen to do just that and once again you have chosen to completely ignore the first part of what I posted:

"I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "

Once again you ignore that.


I will say once again as I have said before the 2 sides need to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the current situation. You on the other had seem to have no interest in the 2 sides sitting down to talk and resolve their differences. Very sad that because that does indeed fit in with the obdurate and heavy handed approach we have seen from Madrid for some time now and as long as that remains the case we will likely only see more violence and problems which is not good for anybody.

As for the scope of any discussions they should be completely open with no preconditions. Interesting that you yourself support Madrid's heavy handed approach demanding pre conditions to any talks. So to answer your question the pre conditions from Madrid to talks are unreasonable.

I just find it interesting that you advocate violence by protesters and then in the same breath say that everyone should sit down and talk. Very telling response.

v638sg7k1a92bx

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I live in Spain. I was watching the news last night and saw Sanchez talking about a progressive agenda in his campaign soeech. Its the word PSOE are using in their electoral campaign so they're the ones who think its cool.


Settle the matter by having a legally-binding vote on the issue. If the majority in Catalonia want to remain a part of Spain, that'll be that.

Even this crackpot Tory government gave Soctland a chance to decide on the issue. Why can't Spain do the same?

A legal vote and yet you say that all I talk about is legalities, do you not see the hypocrisy in your post?

A legal vote can be held but first a bill needs to passed in the Catalan parliament which is something they haven’t been able to do because they don’t have the required democratic majority. Comparisons between Scotland have been raised and slapped down numerous times in this thread.

HalloweenJack

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

A legal vote and yet you say that all I talk about is legalities, do you not see the hypocrisy in your post?

Where?

A legal vote can be held but first a bill needs to passed in the Catalan parliament which is something they haven’t been able to do because they don’t have the required democratic majority.

Have they tried it?

Comparisons between Scotland have been raised and slapped down numerous times in this thread.

Where?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I just find it interesting that you advocate violence by protesters

I don't see any of that in the Eire4 post

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What about ignoring the section of society (the majority) in Catalonia who want to remain part of Spain

I don't know how you can still spread these kind of lies , without having show one prove of that ...

bertie 56 wrote: »

And since you haven't answer to the question : when was the last time Unionism won something in Catalonia ?

And if you think that polls are saying the Truth ( I don't myself ) , here is the last one published :

" If tomorrow a referendum is made to decide on the independence of Catalonia, what would you do? "
Vote Yes : 58.6 %

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

A legal vote can be held but first a bill needs to passed in the Catalan parliament which is something they haven’t been able to do because they don’t have the required democratic majority .

Again spreading lies without any proves or fact, once again ...

Everything has been explain to you, and no, the Catalan Parliament needs only the simple majority, as they have now, to pass a referendum text.
Once again, it is this way they did in 2017 and this way has been declared legal regarding Catalan laws by the Tribunal Constitutional in Nov 2017.
(The text content was declared anti-constitutional regarding Spanish Law ).
Stop spreading lies without any proves or facts !

About the document of Joan Vintró that I gave to you , you fail to answer " which method could work or not " when I asked you.

bertie 56 wrote: »

So can you tell us :

Of the 3 possibilities that propose Joan Vintró , which one( s) could work ? ( taking in account that the document is old and some possibilities might have been tried already )

Since you seem ignorant at the answer, here it is :

None of the 3 solutions can work.

The 2 firsts legal solutions gives only a non-binding referendum, and need the good will of the Spanish politicians to be accepted : forget about these two !

The 3rd solution has been tried in 2014 in Catalonia ( all process explained already ), and couldn't work, block by Spanish laws ( and bad will of Spain ).

This has been explain to you many times already ...

I asked to you what would be a legal way , and you fail once again to give any answer to that .

bertie 56 wrote: »

If there is other " route to independence in a legal way " that you could think of too, let us know.
( For a change, some that doesn't need the full acceptance of the Spanish political class : it's too easy that way ... )

Unless you have an answer to that question, there is no point of repeating again and again " A legal vote can be held " . In fact, you just don't know !

Same as saying " Catalonia is not a nation " but not being able to give a definition of nation....
Same as the " Erbro " river, but not being able to give the name of the book...

bertie 56

New poll from today for the next Spanish elections .


PSOE and Podemos : about the same


Catalan Independentists : on the rise : 23 to 26 seats ( now 22 )


C's : down the ditch


PP / Vox : on a big rise .


Above all , the block C's + PP + Vox stays about the same .

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

I don't know how you can still spread these kind of lies , without having show one prove of that ...



And if you think that polls are saying the Truth ( I don't myself ) , here is the last one published :

" If tomorrow a referendum is made to decide on the independence of Catalonia, what would you do? "
Vote Yes : 58.6 %




Again spreading lies without any proves or fact, once again ...

Everything has been explain to you, and no, the Catalan Parliament needs only the simple majority, as they have now, to pass a referendum text.
Once again, it is this way they did in 2017 and this way has been declared legal regarding Catalan laws by the Tribunal Constitutional in Nov 2017.
(The text content was declared anti-constitutional regarding Spanish Law ).
Stop spreading lies without any proves or facts !

About the document of Joan Vintró that I gave to you , you fail to answer " which method could work or not " when I asked you.



Since you seem ignorant at the answer, here it is :

None of the 3 solutions can work.

The 2 firsts legal solutions gives only a non-binding referendum, and need the good will of the Spanish politicians to be accepted : forget about these two !

The 3rd solution has been tried in 2014 in Catalonia ( all process explained already ), and couldn't work, block by Spanish laws ( and bad will of Spain ).

This has been explain to you many times already ...

I asked to you what would be a legal way , and you fail once again to give any answer to that .



Unless you have an answer to that question, there is no point of repeating again and again " A legal vote can be held " . In fact, you just don't know !

Same as saying " Catalonia is not a nation " but not being able to give a definition of nation....
Same as the " Erbro " river, but not being able to give the name of the book...

You’ve been given article 56 of Catalan statute about a dozen times. You refuse to accept objectionable facts and repeat misinformation and misrepresentation with badly worded copied and texted posts.

There is no mandate for independence either democratically or politically, a simple fact that you cannot get around.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Spain's top court confirms that Catalonia independence referendum was illegal
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/spains-top-court-confirms-that-catalonia-independence-referendum-was-illegal-36234717.html

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You’ve been given article 56 of Catalan statute about a dozen times. You refuse to accept objectionable facts and repeat misinformation and misrepresentation with badly worded copied and texted posts.

Again with the same misinformation ... :eek:


The article 56.2 ( because it's the correct one , not " 56 " :rolleyes:) exist in the law,I gave you the link of it before , but it can be amended with the article 81.3 of the Reglament del Parlament ( you surely didn't know that this text existed ...)



It is what the Catalan Parliement did to pass the Referundum Law.


This 56.2 article has been , with others , suspended and therefore is not applicable the 6/09/17, before passing the Referundum Law.

The referendum was the 1/10/2017.


So there is no need of having more majority as there is now in the Catalan Parliement.
A simple majority is enough .


What block the process is the Spanish Laws, not the Catalans ones !!!


Even with 100% of independentists in the Parliement, a legal referendum won't be legal regarding the Spanish Laws .


So, everything is clear regarding the Catalan side ( they did it in 2017 and it was legal regarding Catalan laws) , but Spain will block anything related to a referundum straight away ( it's what they did in 2017 ).


Got it now ??? :rolleyes:

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Spain's top court confirms that Catalonia independence referendum was illegal
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/spains-top-court-confirms-that-catalonia-independence-referendum-was-illegal-36234717.html

Yes, I kind of knew that :rolleyes: . But that is with Spanish Laws .



Spain's Constitutional Court ( " top court " , as you call it ) confirm that the way the law passed was legal with Catalan laws:



https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/Constitucional-reglamento-Parlament-JxSi-CUP_0_713229236.html


https://www.ara.cat/politica/TC-declara-constitucional-reforma-reglament-Parlament_0_1915008642.html


Just to be sure you understand : Spanish laws and Catalan laws are different .






So your post confirm the opposite of what you are trying to say :



There is no legal way to have a referendum about Catalonia in Spain.



I agree with that .

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

There is no mandate for independence either democratically or politically, a simple fact that you cannot get around.

In Spain, sadly no, I'm afraid ...


But in plenty of democratic countries all around the world, they succeed to find a path that lead to a referendum and sometimes the independence .
Yes, I know, these are democratic countries , that is the main difference ... :rolleyes:

eire4

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I just find it interesting that you advocate violence by protesters and then in the same breath say that everyone should sit down and talk. Very telling response.

Haha nice try with the trolling. So you have gone from refusing to address this point:

"I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "

Once again you fail to address this above point.

Now as well you go for an outright lie claiming I advocated violence. I must say very telling indeed very telling. Previously I was according to you "ill informed" for the audacity of having an opinion that differs from you. Now you take it to another level with a lie. Very telling indeed.

Not only do I not advocate violence I in fact am steadfast in pushing for negotiations to resolve the current situation. The total opposite. I merely point out that a continued obdurate and heavy handed approach from Madrid will very likely lead to just more violence and problems which are not good for anybody. Thus the need IMHO for both sides to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the current situation.

This is what I said:

"I will say once again as I have said before the 2 sides need to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the current situation. You on the other had seem to have no interest in the 2 sides sitting down to talk and resolve their differences. Very sad that because that does indeed fit in with the obdurate and heavy handed approach we have seen from Madrid for some time now and as long as that remains the case we will likely only see more violence and problems which is not good for anybody."

v638sg7k1a92bx

eire4 wrote: »

Haha nice try with the trolling. So you have gone from refusing to address this point:

"I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "

Once again you fail to address this above point.

Now as well you go for an outright lie claiming I advocated violence. I must say very telling indeed very telling. Previously I was according to you "ill informed" for the audacity of having an opinion that differs from you. Now you take it to another level with a lie. Very telling indeed.

Not only do I not advocate violence I in fact am steadfast in pushing for negotiations to resolve the current situation. The total opposite. I merely point out that a continued obdurate and heavy handed approach from Madrid will very likely lead to just more violence and problems which are not good for anybody. Thus the need IMHO for both sides to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the current situation.

This is what I said:

"I will say once again as I have said before the 2 sides need to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the current situation. You on the other had seem to have no interest in the 2 sides sitting down to talk and resolve their differences. Very sad that because that does indeed fit in with the obdurate and heavy handed approach we have seen from Madrid for some time now and as long as that remains the case we will likely only see more violence and problems which is not good for anybody."

Once again, why are you asking me to prove a negative. That's like asking me to prove God doesn't exist and as I said, I'm not here to be subjected to a barrage of questions and interrogations as to "what isn't a nation" by people who are ignorant of the facts and who can't put forward one reason (not one) as to why Catalonia should be independent they try and instead try redirect the argument towards me to prove something which I never suggested because all their half baked argument were demolished so rather than put forward their own argument they want me to disprove something I never suggested. Sorry but it's a very old tactic that can be seen a mile away. If you believe that Catalonia is a nation, the onus is on you to prove that theory not for me to prove why Catalonia isn't a nation.

Your refusal to condemn the illegal actions of the independence politicians and advocates, who have now resorted to violence when all other attempts to subvert every legal process and parliamentary law has failed, is a dog whistle to the protesters to continue carrying out violence.

For example, where is your phoney outrage to comments like this

marieholmfan wrote: »

Well said.

If Catalonia must fight;
Catalonia will be right!

So while you're condemning the violence why don't you tell me what a nation is rather than what one isn't but you'll probably go on some long winded meaningless post about sitting down and having a cup of tea while refusing to condemn any actions by independence advocates up to this point and continue to blame "Madrid"

Next!

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Again with the same misinformation ... :eek:


The article 56.2 ( because it's the correct one , not " 56 " :rolleyes:) exist in the law,I gave you the link of it before , but it can be amended with the article 81.3 of the Reglament del Parlament ( you surely didn't know that this text existed ...)

It is what the Catalan Parliement did to pass the Referundum Law.

This 56.2 article has been , with others , suspended and therefore is not applicable the 6/09/17, before passing the Referundum Law.

The referendum was the 1/10/2017.


So there is no need of having more majority as there is now in the Catalan Parliement.
A simple majority is enough .


What block the process is the Spanish Laws, not the Catalans ones !!!


Even with 100% of independentists in the Parliement, a legal referendum won't be legal regarding the Spanish Laws .


So, everything is clear regarding the Catalan side ( they did it in 2017 and it was legal regarding Catalan laws) , but Spain will block anything related to a referundum straight away ( it's what they did in 2017 ).


Got it now ??? :rolleyes:

So just so I understand your point correctly, you still believe that the referendum on Octobet 1st was legal? A simple Yes or No.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So just so I understand your point correctly, you still believe that the referendum on Octobet 1st was legal? A simple Yes or No.

I'm not interested at trolling the thread, turning in circles with your 2 unique subjects ( " illegal-illegal-illegal " and "majority - minority " ).
I gave you all the facts to answer to that, along with my opinion multiple times .

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Your refusal to condemn the illegal actions of the independence politicians and advocates, who have now resorted to violence when all other attempts to subvert every legal process and parliamentary law has failed, is a dog whistle to the protesters to continue carrying out violence.

when Eire4 was saying :

eire4 wrote: »

Not only do I not advocate violence I in fact am steadfast in pushing for negotiations to resolve the current situation. "

What is the aim at making these kind of assertions on the forum ???

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

I'm not interested at trolling the thread, turning in circles with your 2 unique subjects ( " illegal-illegal-illegal " and "majority - minority " ).
I gave you all the facts to answer to that, along with my opinion multiple times .

What you have given is lies, misinterpretations and misrepresentations in an attempt to try and confuse or convince people who have little knowledge of the facts to try and give the impression that you know what you are talking about. You post links to Catalan websites, written in Catalan knowing that nobody is going to read the content and then try and use this as proof of the lies you are trying to prove. You say, Catalan laws are different to Spanish laws, Catalonia is part of Spain so therefore they are Spanish laws. Again another example of trying to mislead and misinform.
You say Article 56.2 was suspended, this is a lie
You say the independence "referendum" on October 1st was legal, this is a lie
You say the majority of people in Catalonia want independence, this is a lie

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What you have given is lies, misinterpretations and misrepresentations in an attempt to try and confuse or convince people who have little knowledge of the facts to try and give the impression that you know what you are talking about. You post links to Catalan websites, written in Catalan knowing that nobody is going to read the content and then try and use this as proof of the lies you are trying to prove. You say, Catalan laws are different to Spanish laws, Catalonia is part of Spain so therefore they are Spanish laws. Again another example of trying to mislead and misinform.
You say Article 56.2 was suspended, this is a lie
You say the independence "referendum" on October 1st was legal, this is a lie
You say the majority of people in Catalonia want independence, this is a lie

You post opinions .



I post facts and proves .


That is the difference...


Adéu !