Catalan independence referendum, 2017

ancapailldorcha

bertie 56 wrote: »

You post opinions .



I post facts and proves .


That is the difference...


Adéu !

No more snide comments please.

ancapailldorcha

Bertie 56, you do not need to announce the sending of PM's in thread. Post deleted.

bertie 56

Interesting article from today in vilaweb.cat about Tsunami Democràtic :


" Tsunami Democràtic: “We encourage non-violent mobilisation to defend basic rights”


Catalonia’s Tsunami Democràtic have answered VilaWeb’s questions explaining their take on the Spanish state’s attempt to block their communication lines with the population. Tsunami’s message is crystal clear: whatever happens, they are geared up to communicate with the people. They also reveal that they have received support from across the world and that over 40,000 people have already downloaded and validated their app using a QR code. Upcoming actions are slated for November 9, 11, 12 and 13, as well as December 18.

https://english.vilaweb.cat/noticies/tsunami-democratic-we-encourage-non-violent-mobilisation-to-defend-basic-rights/



In English .

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

You post opinions .

I post facts and proves .

That is the difference...

Adéu !

Actually very little if anything you have posted has been fact. You copy and paste from various pro Catalan and anti Spanish websites, with links to articles in Catalan.

I’ve quoted the actual Catalan statute of autonomy and the actual Spanish Constitution and you reply by saying that there was some other law that changed everything and then copy and paste the text from some random pro Independence website with zero credibility but where are these laws that have been changed. If a law has been changed or amended then that legislation should be publicly available for anyone to lookup. It instead you copy and paste random unrelated articles.

I post a link to the statute of autonomy and the you say it’s out of date, I post the same statute again showing you the date and you say that it’s an older version which has since been amended but it’s nowhere to be found on the Catalan parliamentary website but instead you post a link about an irrelevant article about a completely separate topic as if this is some type of proof.

Do you actually believe your own lies or are you so invested in the independence movement that it would be too traumatic for you to admit that everything that you’ve been told is a lie so you keep repeating the same falsehoods and lies.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Interesting article from today in vilaweb.cat about Tsunami Democràtic :


" Tsunami Democràtic: “We encourage non-violent mobilisation to defend basic rights”


Catalonia’s Tsunami Democràtic have answered VilaWeb’s questions explaining their take on the Spanish state’s attempt to block their communication lines with the population. Tsunami’s message is crystal clear: whatever happens, they are geared up to communicate with the people. They also reveal that they have received support from across the world and that over 40,000 people have already downloaded and validated their app using a QR code. Upcoming actions are slated for November 9, 11, 12 and 13, as well as December 18.

https://english.vilaweb.cat/noticies/tsunami-democratic-we-encourage-non-violent-mobilisation-to-defend-basic-rights/



In English .

Is this a repository?

Notice how they say they “encourage” but they don’t condemn the violence. A bit like other posters on here.

I encourage you not to attack the police.

saabsaab

eire4 wrote: »

Haha nice try with the trolling. So you have gone from refusing to address this point:

"I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "

Once again you fail to address this above point.

Now as well you go for an outright lie claiming I advocated violence. I must say very telling indeed very telling. Previously I was according to you "ill informed" for the audacity of having an opinion that differs from you. Now you take it to another level with a lie. Very telling indeed.

Not only do I not advocate violence I in fact am steadfast in pushing for negotiations to resolve the current situation. The total opposite. I merely point out that a continued obdurate and heavy handed approach from Madrid will very likely lead to just more violence and problems which are not good for anybody. Thus the need IMHO for both sides to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the current situation.

This is what I said:

"I will say once again as I have said before the 2 sides need to sit down and negotiate a resolution to the current situation. You on the other had seem to have no interest in the 2 sides sitting down to talk and resolve their differences. Very sad that because that does indeed fit in with the obdurate and heavy handed approach we have seen from Madrid for some time now and as long as that remains the case we will likely only see more violence and problems which is not good for anybody."

I agree. It seems the violence seems to be coming from the Spanish side. There is also a democratic deficit on this issue which Spain should resolve but I don't believe they want to, at least yet. Basically it seems to be one agrees with self determination or not. Scotland at least got their chance and may again.



The good thing about this thread even if confusing at times is that it helps keep the issue current at least on boards but may need to be discussed at a national level.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: There are quite a few accusations of lying, advocating violence and general bad faith arguments over the last few pages of this thread. Let's have an end to it please or I'll have to start issuing sanctions.

v638sg7k1a92bx

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Mod: There are quite a few accusations of lying, advocating violence and general bad faith arguments over the last few pages of this thread. Let's have an end to it please or I'll have to start issuing sanctions.

Agrees but in fairness I’ve been labelled a liar multiple times on this thread going back over two years and only in the last post did I refer what I consider to be intentional lies because it appeared to be fair game.

ancapailldorcha

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Agrees but in fairness I’ve been labelled a liar multiple times on this thread going back over two years and only in the last post did I refer what I consider to be intentional lies because it appeared to be fair game.

Report the posts please and do not discuss moderation on thread.

bertie 56

saabsaab wrote: »

I agree. It seems the violence seems to be coming from the Spanish side. There is also a democratic deficit on this issue which Spain should resolve but I don't believe they want to, at least yet. Basically it seems to be one agrees with self determination or not. Scotland at least got their chance and may again.



The good thing about this thread even if confusing at times is that it helps keep the issue current at least on boards but may need to be discussed at a national level.

Yes, definitively, the institutional violence of Spain, and the violence of the police forces is far heavier compares with the few actions of the youths saw in the streets in the last two weeks.



And the few violent actions are made by some one or two hundreds people , not all independentists. This number has to be put in comparison with the 300.00 to 750.000 people in the usual most important demonstrations, all of them peaceful .



And it's important to say : every political / civic organisations, etc...included Tsunami Democràtic has called for a non-violent movement. All of them, and often few times.


But Spain doesn't like that . As said Ramiro Garcia de Dios, a Spanish ex-judge :



"El que més preocupa al sistema són les lluites pacífiques. El sistema està encantat si hi ha violència perquè les pot sufocar amb l'aparell ultrarepressiu . Sense violència estàn perduts. "

" What worry the most the ( politic ) system is a peaceful struggle .

The system is delighted if there is violence because it can then stifle with the ultra - repression . They are lost without violence "

saabsaab

Watching this thread for a while now going back and forth. The whole Catalonian situation needs more mainstream media exposure than it's getting and I've learned quite quite a lot here.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Yes, definitively, the institutional violence of Spain, and the violence of the police forces is far heavier compares with the few actions of the youths saw in the streets in the last two weeks.



And the few violent actions are made by some one or two hundreds people , not all independentists. This number has to be put in comparison with the 300.00 to 750.000 people in the usual most important demonstrations, all of them peaceful .



And it's important to say : every political / civic organisations, etc...included Tsunami Democràtic has called for a non-violent movement. All of them, and often few times.


But Spain doesn't like that . As said Ramiro Garcia de Dios, a Spanish ex-judge :



"El que més preocupa al sistema són les lluites pacífiques. El sistema està encantat si hi ha violència perquè les pot sufocar amb l'aparell ultrarepressiu . Sense violència estàn perduts. "

" What worry the most the ( politic ) system is a peaceful struggle .

The system is delighted if there is violence because it can then stifle with the ultra - repression . They are lost without violence "

You are lost without violence because without violence you have nothing. You don’t have the legal, democratic, political or international support. That’s why you are desperate to stoke violence and attempt to provoke police into charging protesters so you can cry about how your rights are being oppressed and continue overusing the word repression.

The only people who win with violence are the independence demonstrators. Spanish authorities know this which is why they are at pains not to charge the crowds unless they come under attack themselves. Spanish authorities are not stupid, they know any escalation of violence only plays into the protestors hands.

Your movement has nothing left other than to resort to violence in an attempt to provoke police so that you make yourselves out to be victims.

saabsaab

Independence movements and those looking for self determination don't usually get international recognition until after they have achieved it. See Ireland's case. True democratic process is not available to the Catalan people at least the Scots got a chance. As for legal process that as I have said before is really a red herring.

bertie 56

saabsaab wrote: »

Watching this thread for a while now going back and forth. The whole Catalonian situation needs more mainstream media exposure than it's getting and I've learned quite quite a lot here.

I found that lately, since the announcement of the verdict, the media exposure is getting important . It needs definitively more, but some high quality papers are now reporting often and precisely what is the situation in Catalonia , in an objective way.



This, as well , is putting Spain and the unionists nervous . Their marketing tool " España Global " is a disaster in terms of number of reach and quality of the information.


They recently had to suppress one of their video after it went viral on the independentists medias . This video was made to explain the verdict .
You can see the video here :
https://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/espanya-global-retira-video-dibujos-animados-sentencia-proces_433770_102.html


In USA, since recently, they are paying 15.000 $ a month a private marketing company to try to improve their image.

That is not a good sign ...

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

I found that lately, since the announcement of the verdict, the media exposure is getting important . It needs definitively more, but some high quality papers are now reporting often and precisely what is the situation in Catalonia , in an objective way.



This, as well , is putting Spain and the unionists nervous . Their marketing tool " España Global " is a disaster in terms of number of reach and quality of the information.


They recently had to suppress one of their video after it went viral on the independentists medias . This video was made to explain the verdict .
You can see the video here :
https://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/espanya-global-retira-video-dibujos-animados-sentencia-proces_433770_102.html


In USA, since recently, they are paying 15.000 $ a month a private marketing company to try to improve their image.

That is not a good sign ...

Media exposure outside of Spain is a lot more muted compared to two years ago when the cops waded in and kicked lumps out of them. That’s where the media attention is, an image of cops beating protesters as they allegedly try to vote which is why independence protestors are desperate for violence to kick off.

People outside of Spain are more aware of the facts now than they were two years ago. The know that there is no basis for independence, even people who are in favour of independence cannot tell us why they should be independent of what is actually different about Catalonia then Spain. They’re also fatigued of nationalist movements with Trump and Brexit.

The independence movement has nothing left, they played their hand and lost. Their leaders are in jail and exiled. All they have now is to try and stoke violence or one of them throws themselves under a bus to make themselves a martyr. .

saabsaab

It is not in the Catalan interest to stoke violence and I believe no one here is suggesting it.


https://theculturetrip.com/europe/spain/articles/six-reasons-why-catalonia-is-different-from-spain/




By the way a quick link to differences between Spanish and Catalonians. Only a surperficial guide but what's the difference between Irish and British?

EagererBeaver

saabsaab wrote: »

It is not in the Catalan interest to stoke violence and I believe no one here is suggesting it.


https://theculturetrip.com/europe/spain/articles/six-reasons-why-catalonia-is-different-from-spain/




By the way a quick link to differences between Spanish and Catalonians. Only a surperficial guide but what's the difference between Irish and British?

Yeah, it's just a tad superficial alright. It's a travel guide ffs.

saabsaab

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Yeah, it's just a tad superficial alright. It's a travel guide ffs.

A travel guide to Catalonia not Spain there is a difference!

v638sg7k1a92bx

saabsaab wrote: »

A travel guide to Catalonia not Spain there is a difference!

Catalonia is still Spain btw. They haven’t got independence yet.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Media exposure outside of Spain is a lot more muted compared to two years ago when the cops waded in and kicked lumps out of them. That’s where the media attention is, an image of cops beating protesters as they allegedly try to vote which is why independence protestors are desperate for violence to kick off.

I correct your sentence : " That’s where the sensationalist media attention is, an image of cops beating protesters "

I can't tell you for these ones, I don't read that sort of press . But if you take high quality papers , as I was talking about previously , I still find good leading articles all around the world , and articles from media that hasn't cover the 2017 referendum ( a good bit in China now, where they use Catalonia to show that their own repression towards Hong-Kong  is restrained in comparison ).

Please note as well that the international media coverage is not only the English spoken world  .

( For good leading articles in Catalonia ( for abroad ) , see John Carlin or Tim Parfitt , for ex in English , or Jean Quatremer in French , for ex . )
   

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The independence movement has nothing left, they played their hand and lost. Their leaders are in jail and exiled.

I wouldn't say the game is finish .
In my opinion, it's just another round starting now.

The independence movement has the majority in the Parliament, and in the streets.
They still have there own laws, and ( I could make a post on that ) they have international laws protecting their self-determination.

European laws are there too protecting their rights, it's just a matter of time , in my opinion, to see the Spanish verdict smashed ( like it has happened already for cases of torture by the Spanish Police ) . 
For example today , the jailed Catalan leader Junqueras has taken European Parliament president Sassoli to EU court. And many more will come...

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The independence movement has nothing left,(...)   All they have now is to try and stoke violence or one of them throws themselves under a bus to make themselves a martyr. .

If it was the case as described, there will be some real violence happening now everyday .

And there is none .

No call from organizations or politics towards violence neither, but all the opposite .

The movement is, and has always been a pacific one.

Don't forget : it's always easier to be violent than non-violent, in this kind of complicated situations...

And don't forget neither the provocations in front ,the cover police or  like C's doing a march this afternoon in the " occupation camp " of Barcelona .

bertie 56

saabsaab wrote: »

A travel guide to Catalonia not Spain there is a difference!

Yes, I would be a bit disappointed if I'm buying a travel guide to Catalonia only to see the beaches of Marbella , Las Ventas or a page on the Asturian cider inside !


About this small guide : of course, it's not perfect, but there is no point neither at posting a PhD that nobody will read, so ...


And it still good to remember the use of the Constitution to erase democratic Catalan votes . That says a lot about the objective of the majority of the Catalans now !

EagererBeaver

saabsaab wrote: »

A travel guide to Catalonia not Spain there is a difference!

Yes, but "Gaudí was from Catalunya" (just one example from the article you chooe to share with us) isn't really an argument that anyone sensible would bring into a discussion about differences between Catalunya and the rest of Spain.

It is, literally, completely irrelevant.

EagererBeaver

bertie 56 wrote: »

Yes, I would be a bit disappointed if I'm buying a travel guide to Catalonia only to see the beaches of Marbella , Las Ventas or a page on the Asturian cider inside !


About this small guide : of course, it's not perfect, but there is no point neither at posting a PhD that nobody will read, so ...


And it still good to remember the use of the Constitution to erase democratic Catalan votes . That says a lot about the objective of the majority of the Catalans now !

I have Lonely Planet guides for Andalucía, the Basque Country, Galicia and Catalunya. What have any of them got to do with the question of independence? Nothing.

Different regions of a large country of nearly 50m people being, well, different isn't surprising. Great if you're going on holidays of course but I don't think any of us are here to discuss that. People can head to the Travel forum if they wish.

So why bother posting it saabsaab? Are you just googling "Catalonia" and linking to whatever you can find?

eire4

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Once again, why are you asking me to prove a negative. That's like asking me to prove God doesn't exist and as I said, I'm not here to be subjected to a barrage of questions and interrogations as to "what isn't a nation" by people who are ignorant of the facts and who can't put forward one reason (not one) as to why Catalonia should be independent they try and instead try redirect the argument towards me to prove something which I never suggested because all their half baked argument were demolished so rather than put forward their own argument they want me to disprove something I never suggested. Sorry but it's a very old tactic that can be seen a mile away. If you believe that Catalonia is a nation, the onus is on you to prove that theory not for me to prove why Catalonia isn't a nation.

Your refusal to condemn the illegal actions of the independence politicians and advocates, who have now resorted to violence when all other attempts to subvert every legal process and parliamentary law has failed, is a dog whistle to the protesters to continue carrying out violence.

For example, where is your phoney outrage to comments like this

So while you're condemning the violence why don't you tell me what a nation is rather than what one isn't but you'll probably go on some long winded meaningless post about sitting down and having a cup of tea while refusing to condemn any actions by independence advocates up to this point and continue to blame "Madrid"

Next!

Well I will give your credit instead of yet again refusing to address the following point:

"I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "

You this time go for obfuscation and insults. Talking about proving negatives, the existence or not of god and a barrage of question even though it is only one and then calling others "ignorant" for their audacity in having different views to yourself. The obfuscation then continues as you rail vociferously.

I merely pointed out your to quote from myself again:
"I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "

Your new response of obfuscation and insult once again I see as very telling.

Sadly your previous response to me included a rather egregious lie when you said I advocated violence when the exact opposite is the case. To quote what I said again:

"Not only do I not advocate violence I in fact am steadfast in pushing for negotiations to resolve the current situation. "


The 2 sides sitting down with no pre conditions to negotiate a resolution to the situation is what is needed to resolve things. I just do not believe a continued heavy handed approach from Madrid will bring things to a positive resolution. Negotiations with no preconditions are the key IMHO.

Finally I would say if you want to ask me a question I am happy to answer please however refrain from claiming you have some prescient knowledge of what I will say and indulging in more insults.

saabsaab

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I have Lonely Planet guides for Andalucía, the Basque Country, Galicia and Catalunya. What have any of them got to do with the question of independence? Nothing.

Different regions of a large country of nearly 50m people being, well, different isn't surprising. Great if you're going on holidays of course but I don't think any of us are here to discuss that. People can head to the Travel forum if they wish.

So why bother posting it saabsaab? Are you just googling "Catalonia" and linking to whatever you can find?

'even people who are in favour of independence cannot tell us why they should be independent of what is actually different about Catalonia then Spain'

It is very relevant in spite of your high handed dismissal. I was responding to this comment, that there is a difference between Spain and Catalonia, not least the fact that the Catalan people see themselves as separate. This was acknowledged in the past and probably still is by many Spanish people. Compare Ireland to Britain we have much in common (especially language) but we are separate and entitled to self determination like Catalonia.

EagererBeaver

saabsaab wrote: »

'even people who are in favour of independence cannot tell us why they should be independent of what is actually different about Catalonia then Spain'

It is very relevant in spite of your high handed dismissal. I was responding to this comment, that there is a difference between Spain and Catalonia, not least the fact that the Catalan people see themselves as separate. This was acknowledged in the past and probably still is by many Spanish people. Compare Ireland to Britain we have much in common (especially language) but we are separate and entitled to self determination like Catalonia.

I don't dispute out for a second but you reveal your true ignorance by simply lumping everything outside Catalunya as "Spain". Andalucía isn't Galicia. Cantabria isn't Aragon. The Basque Country isn't Valencia.

"Gaudí was from Catalonia" doesn't really help articulate that view in the slightest. It adds nothing to the debate whatsoever.

v638sg7k1a92bx

eire4 wrote: »

Well I will give your credit instead of yet again refusing to address the following point:

"I never said you did. I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "

You this time go for obfuscation and insults. Talking about proving negatives, the existence or not of god and a barrage of question even though it is only one and then calling others "ignorant" for their audacity in having different views to yourself. The obfuscation then continues as you rail vociferously.

I merely pointed out your to quote from myself again:
"I merely pointed out your constant barking at others for a definition of what a nation is. Yet when your asked for your own definition of what a nation is you refuse to answer. Funny that. "

Your new response of obfuscation and insult once again I see as very telling.

Sadly your previous response to me included a rather egregious lie when you said I advocated violence when the exact opposite is the case. To quote what I said again:

"Not only do I not advocate violence I in fact am steadfast in pushing for negotiations to resolve the current situation. "


The 2 sides sitting down with no pre conditions to negotiate a resolution to the situation is what is needed to resolve things. I just do not believe a continued heavy handed approach from Madrid will bring things to a positive resolution. Negotiations with no preconditions are the key IMHO.

Finally I would say if you want to ask me a question I am happy to answer please however refrain from claiming you have some prescient knowledge of what I will say and indulging in more insults.

Where is the heavy handed approach from Madrid, it's the Mossos d'Esquadra who are managing the situation in Catalonia, nothing to do with Madrid?

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Where is the heavy handed approach from Madrid, it's the Mossos d'Esquadra who are managing the situation in Catalonia, nothing to do with Madrid?

No, and the answer has been done already .
CNP and BRIMO.
CNP are the more numerous and the more violent and they get their orders from Madrid directly.
The BRIMO got their orders from Catalonia, but of course indirectly from Madrid too.
Just look what has happened to Trapero last time !
By the way , the resignation of Buch , Interior Minister of Catalonia, is something that a lot of people of Catalonia is currentlyasking.



And everybody knows that Catalonia is under threads of getting control by Madrid again with the article 155 .


So, everything to do with Madrid, yes !

saabsaab

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I don't dispute out for a second but you reveal your true ignorance by simply lumping everything outside Catalunya as "Spain". Andalucía isn't Galicia. Cantabria isn't Aragon. The Basque Country isn't Valencia.

"Gaudí was from Catalonia" doesn't really help articulate that view in the slightest. It adds nothing to the debate whatsoever.

At least you acknowledge that they are different. That was my objective.

Barna77

saabsaab wrote: »

https://theculturetrip.com/europe/spain/articles/six-reasons-why-catalonia-is-different-from-spain/




By the way a quick link to differences between Spanish and Catalonians. Only a surperficial guide but what's the difference between Irish and British?

1. Language.
And goes with a pic of a book in Spanish to learn Catalán. The irony

(Btw, maybe the advertising agencies up here, even RTÉ and BBC, should learn that NOT ALL Spain is flamenco)



Gaudí worked outside Catalonia too. Maybe Puigdemont now wants to claim the episcopal palace of Astorga as a Catalonian enclave in fascist Castille :pac: