Catalan independence referendum, 2017

EagererBeaver

saabsaab wrote: »

At least you acknowledge that they are different. That was my objective.

In many ways it is different, yes. In many ways, it's the same. Like places all over the world. Dublin is different to Belfast. Dublin is different to Drogheda. James Joyce wasn't from Drogheda you know.

This. Means. Nothing.

saabsaab

EagererBeaver wrote: »

In many ways it is different, yes. In many ways, it's the same. Like places all over the world. Dublin is different to Belfast. Dublin is different to Drogheda. James Joyce want from Drogheda you know.

This. Means. Nothing.

James Joyce from Drogheda! Never heard that are you sure?


Besides Drogheda or Dublin don't want to break away from the rest of our republic. Not too sure about Belfast hopefully they will want to join us in the not too distant future.

EagererBeaver

How are you still not getting this?

ancapailldorcha

EagererBeaver wrote: »

How are you still not getting this?

Stop posting like this please or you will be banned from this forum.

saabsaab

I consider that the extract below is relevant in this debate.



'On February 22, the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) hosted the fourth and last debate of a series ‘What is Next for Spain and Catalonia?’. Moderated by Julio Crespo MacLennan, professors Montserrat Guibernau, Manuel Arias Maldonado and Fernando Vallespín spoke on normative and political issues around the right to self-determination in democracies. This post summarises the main points that were developed in the debate which are closely related with the current situation in Catalonia.
The right to self-determination in the international context
Guibernau started by recognising that the right to self-determination may not be applicable in plural democracies that respect minorities. However, she did not consider the Spanish case as an example of a plural democracy that respects minorities. According to Guibernau, the Catalans are a minority ignored in Spain and the behaviour of the central government towards the Catalan minority – with measures such as the application of article 155 and the imprisonment of some pro-independence politicians – would justify that the right of self-determination can be applied to the Catalan case. Therefore, she considered legitimate the aspiration to independence and believed it justified that this right does apply to Catalonia.'

bertie 56

saabsaab wrote: »

I consider that the extract below is relevant in this debate.



'On February 22, the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) hosted the fourth and last debate of a series ‘What is Next for Spain and Catalonia?’. Moderated by Julio Crespo MacLennan, professors Montserrat Guibernau, Manuel Arias Maldonado and Fernando Vallespín spoke on normative and political issues around the right to self-determination in democracies. This post summarises the main points that were developed in the debate which are closely related with the current situation in Catalonia.
The right to self-determination in the international context
Guibernau started by recognising that the right to self-determination may not be applicable in plural democracies that respect minorities. However, she did not consider the Spanish case as an example of a plural democracy that respects minorities. According to Guibernau, the Catalans are a minority ignored in Spain and the behaviour of the central government towards the Catalan minority – with measures such as the application of article 155 and the imprisonment of some pro-independence politicians – would justify that the right of self-determination can be applied to the Catalan case. Therefore, she considered legitimate the aspiration to independence and believed it justified that this right does apply to Catalonia.'

Thanks for the interesting document.
After having reading a bit about the subject , it seems that there is a broad consensus among international experts ( non-Spanish or Catalan ) on the question, and they arrive to the same conclusion : yes, according to some international laws that has been sign by Spain, the right to self-determination applies to the Catalan situation .
Talking about the behavior of the central government towards the Catalan minority, it is clear that everyday brings his lot of proves about the non-respect of the Catalans.


( Just for today :

- a new law that allow the Spanish State to fast shut down websites and servers hosting social media platforms without a judicial order ( law taking effect tonight 12.00 )

- The constitutional court in Madrid has issued a warning to Catalan regional parliament speaker Roger Torrent, that he faces criminal liability if he allows a voting of a resolution about the 9 political prisoners verdict. )



Interesting to know : in the past , Spain has already allowed a referendum of independence , under the right to self-determination .
Guinea Española became independent in 1968 after the victory of the independentists , and took the name of Guinea Ecuatorial

Few details about that :

- Guinea Española wasn't a colony at the time, but a province with autonomy .
- The minimum of votes was 50% to get the independence.
- Spain didn't vote, only the inhabitants of the place did.
- ( For those who are interested in the Galician politics : it was Manuel Fraga, Minister of Franco at the time , who signed the papers )

saabsaab

I didn't know about Guinea Española. A lot of overseas colonies got their independence as the European Empires broke up.

An Ciarraioch

Currently, if the polls are correct, next Sunday will see Vox win up to 60 seats, while the Catalan parties are on course to win more than half of the region's 48 seats in the Spanish parliament, so unlikely to see a calming of tensions in the foreseeable future:

bertie 56

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Currently, if the polls are correct, next Sunday will see Vox win up to 60 seats, while the Catalan parties are on course to win more than half of the region's 48 seats in the Spanish parliament, so unlikely to see a calming of tensions in the foreseeable future:

Welcome back, An Ciarraioch ! :-)

First poll from the prohibited period, so .
And Vox is still climbing ...
For the future, seeing the collapse of C's, it won't be easy for PSOE to attempt a coalition like they did last time ... ( and like last time, they promised they won't do it . :rolleyes: ).

bertie 56

Last poll in Catalonia . Small decline for the 2 independentists " veterans" , the overall number for the independentist side on the rise, thanks to the entrance of CUP in the game.

An Ciarraioch

Not entirely sure what this actually means in practice - the Spanish government introduces legislation to block the creation of a "digital Catalan republic" - in truth, since the creation of VPNs, national networks can easily be circumvented:

https://euobserver.com/political/146540?utm_source=euobs&utm_medium=email

saabsaab

As the influence of online based media increases and paper and TV reduce they see the danger of losing this battle. They obviously feel threatened by the new media that is difficult to control. See the great firewall of china!

An Ciarraioch

Vox propose a motion in the Madrid regional assembly calling on the national government to ban pro-independence parties, and it is passed with the support of C's and PP:

https://www.eldiario.es/madrid/politica/Vox-PP-Asamblea-Madrid-Espana_0_961004794.html

Probably the most effective way to actually increase turnout in Catalonia, the Basque Country, Galicia, Navarre and the Canaries, just for starters!

bertie 56

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Vox propose a motion in the Madrid regional assembly calling on the national government to ban pro-independence parties, and it is passed with the support of C's and PP:

https://www.eldiario.es/madrid/politica/Vox-PP-Asamblea-Madrid-Espana_0_961004794.html

Probably the most effective way to actually increase turnout in Catalonia, the Basque Country, Galicia, Navarre and the Canaries, just for starters!

No tact, no tactics, they just do politics like bulls ...


But it's not surprising, this was part of the Vox program .


I'm afraid that we'll have to get used to these type of news with the increasing place of Vox in the game.
( Their last idea : closing the Spain - Gibraltar frontier , after UK said that they close the case ( temporary ) on the extradition of Clara Ponsati from UK to Spain )


About putting the CDR or equivalent organizations with zero victims on the EU " terrorist black list " , that is a good way to make themselves look foolish in front of all EU .:rolleyes:

bertie 56

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Not entirely sure what this actually means in practice - the Spanish government introduces legislation to block the creation of a "digital Catalan republic" - in truth, since the creation of VPNs, national networks can easily be circumvented:

https://euobserver.com/political/146540?utm_source=euobs&utm_medium=email

The law text is talking about " public order, public safety and national security " as an excuse to block digital services .

That could be anything, from a referendum to a pacifist demonstration ( both has seen related websites closed already ) or whatever you want to put in ...



Yes , for a website/app, etc... it's possible to go around with a VPN, but that doesn't make the website/app... legal . The new law just widen the possibilities to make them illegal and faster to close down .


The restriction of use of data can as well block the use of the census data ( needed for another non-declared referendum , for example), and will block any idea of creating a new " Catalan ID " .



This law text is specifically design for Catalonia , and they don't hide it : “following the recent and serious events that have occurred in part of the Spanish territory...etc...”


As said the Generalitat , it's a " digital 155 " .


Or a " Digital Patriot Act " ?



PS : " The text also establishes that all servers that use data from the Spanish public administrations must be located in the EU instead of in 'digital paradises' - where digital traces are difficult to control."

Just now that the law is in vigor , a quick check :

Ministerio del Interior website ? : Hosted in Dallas - Texas- USA :-)

( Search " www.interior.gob.es " with https://www.site24x7.com/find-website-location.html

saabsaab

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs1SzLl4_yo


Protests in Catalonia Visit of Spanish King. Some comments mirror comments here.

Barna77

saabsaab wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs1SzLl4_yo


Protests in Catalonia Visit of Spanish King. Some comments mirror comments here.

Nothing new there

bertie 56

As said the Catalans : " No tenim rei " ( We have no king ).


According to a survey from the beginning of this year, only 12% of the Catalans wants a monarchy . ( and 76% wants a Republic ) .


Definitively another reason ( if needed ! ) of why Catalonia wants freedom from Spain :cool: ...

saabsaab

bertie 56 wrote: »

As said the Catalans : " No tenim rei " ( We have no king ).


According to a survey from the beginning of this year, only 12% of the Catalans wants a monarchy . ( and 76% wants a Republic ) .


Definitively another reason ( if needed ! ) of why Catalonia wants freedom from Spain :cool: ...

Agreed, no need for Kings (or Queens) in this day and age.

bertie 56

So election day today in Spain. Since the system is a bit different from the Irish one, here's a quick guide to understanding how votes translate into seats .


" How the Spanish general election works ? "


" On November 10, over 37 million people are registered to vote in the election. Yet, depositing their ballot at the polling station is just the start of the process, as how those votes translate into parliamentary seats depends on a system of proportional representation based on regional party lists and involving two parliamentary chambers."


https://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/how-the-spanish-general-election-works
( in ENG )

bertie 56

Here is a great article that gives details of where each party in this election stands on the matter of Catalan independence: from agreeing on a referendum to banning pro-independence parties :



" The eight main Catalan parties running in the November 10 election offer much scope for political division.
The pro-independence bloc of left-wing Esquerra, Junts per Catalunya and Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP) is matched by the right-wing triad of Ciutadans, People's Party and Vox, with the Socialists (PSC) also on the unionist side, and En Comú Podem standing in-within blocs.
ERC, JxCat, and CUP all favor self-determination and amnesty for the independence leaders sentenced to 9-13 years in jail for their role in the 2017 referendum, whilst PPC, Cs, and Vox wish to suspend Catalonia's autonomy through the invocation of the controversial Article 155 of Spain's constitution.
The PSC favors dialogue within the law but rejects a referendum, whilst ECP also favors heading to the negotiation table to come to a political pact which can lead to a referendum.
Here is a rundown of what each party in Catalonia stands for and can hope for in the election on November 10."



- Esquerra Republicana : further success expected after historic April election

- Junts per Catalunya: recognizing right to self-determination through dialogue

- CUP : self-determination from irreformable Spanish state


- En Comú Podem ( "Catalan Podemos" ) - release of leaders and stable dialogue the way forward


- PSC ( "Catalan PSOE ") - dialogue within the law ( still waiting for this to happen, though :rolleyes: )



- "Catalan PP" : road to redemption after worst election result ever


- Ciutadans ( "Catalan C's ") : immediate invocation of Article 155


- Vox: banning pro-independence parties

More details for each party can be found here :

https://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/self-determination-or-self-rule-suspension-catalan-parties-at-odds-ahead-of-general-election

( In ENG )
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About the turnout for this election at mid-day :

The turnout in Catalonia is 40,6% . down by 3% from April

In Spain as a whole, participation has decreased by 3.6% to 37.9%
.
In one of the voting station in Catalonia this morning, an old man with a cardboard sign around the neck : "I am going to vote, do not hit me"

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bertie 56

Now that the champagne hangover is passed, here is some numbers and reflections about Sunday elections.



In one sentence : Spain is again drifting towards more fascism, when Catalonia continues the rise towards independence.



Historic results for the independentists, with the highest level of votes for them in a Spanish general elections since the return of the democracy since the physical death of Franco.



Few results :


Congress :

Independentists : 1.642.063 votes - 23 seats ( going up since last election in April )

Unionists : 1.536.283 votes - 18 seats ( going down since last election in April )



Senate :


Independentists : 14 seats
Unionists : : 2 seats.


Excellent results too in Euskal Herria, with 0 seats for Vox - PP or C's .


After the wipe-out of C's ( from 57 to 10 seats ) , Albert Rivera , head of C's leaves politic ( the day after the politic has left him )



So once again, majority for the independentist side compares to the unionist side .

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

General discussion of Spanish Election here:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058029369

An Ciarraioch

Provisional coalition agreement between PSOE and Podemos - as the latter has a semi-autonomous Catalan branch that contains 7 of its 35 MPs, the new government could well begin dialogue with Catalonia:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/12/inenglish/1573562718_041862.html

bertie 56

Hello everybody,


For those interested with Catalonia, there is a talk tonight in Derry, and tomorrow in Dublin, with a Catalan firefighter who was present the day of the 2017 referendum.


That is one occasion to hear a first hand testimony of that day .







Please note that :



a) I don't have any connection with the event. I'm not member of the organization that set this talk, I never met them or talk to them ( and I won't be able to attend it myself ) .

b . As far as I know ( just saw their post on Twitter ) , it is a free event , open to everybody.

https://twitter.com/ANC_Ireland/status/1191851348842745856
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An Ciarraioch

European Court of Justice rules that Junqueras is legally an MEP, and can seek immunity from prosecution:

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/1112/1090288-catalan-movement/

bertie 56

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

European Court of Justice rules that Junqueras is legally an MEP, and can seek immunity from prosecution:

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/1112/1090288-catalan-movement/

Yes.

So far, it is just a first opinion , a " prelude to a full ruling " that will statute on the case in a few weeks / months , but it is already a very good news .

Apparently, the final judgement follows at 80% the first opinion, according to the past rulings.


This decision is showing to EU the dirty tricks of Madrid : using their courts to eliminate democratically elected political opponents .


Another article about that :


Spain was wrong to impede Catalan candidate from taking MEP seat, says top lawyer - Legal opinion favors Oriol Junqueras seeking immunity from prosecution.

" Spain had no legal right to block a Catalan candidate from taking his seat as a member of the European Parliament by setting additional bureaucratic requirements, a senior lawyer at the Court of Justice of the European Union said Tuesday."


" The opinion issued Tuesday included a clear rebuke of the Spanish government regarding steps that appeared to prevent a candidate who emerged victorious in the European Parliament election from taking his seat. "

https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-wrong-impede-catalan-candidate-from-taking-mep-seat-says-top-lawyer/

( in ENG )

bertie 56

So PSOE and Podemos had reached a preliminary agreement .


About Catalonia , the agreement is clear : everything should be " always within the frame of the Constitution " (exact sentence : “siempre dentro de la Constitución” ).


If we make the account :



PSOE (120) + Podemos (35) + Más País (3) + PRC (1) + PNV (7) + CC (2) + BNG (1) + Teruel (1) = 170.



That is the best scenario , if all these people agree . But even with that, it won't be enough , the absolute majority is = 176.


So far ( that I know of ), only PSOE , Podemos, Mas Pais, PNV agrees. And nobody on the right side.



Tonight , Junts per Catalunya, CUP, and ERC are against any support to Sanchez . Not even abstention for the second vote .


Unless Sanchez let go something big in the Catalan side, I don't see things happening anytime soon...


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Far from these offices negotiations, the situation in the streets/roads are turning into a big headache for Madrid .


Spain is nearly cut out of Europe by road, the only two motorways there is are blocked.



After having blocked the AP7 motorway at the Spanish/French frontier ( or North Catalonia/South Catalonia " frontier " ) for 30 hours, the Tsunami Democratic movement has now isolated Spain from the rest of Europe, cutting the 2 mains motorways ( the same AP7 , but in Girona ) , and the AP8 in Irun ( Euskal Herria ) , plus one national road crossing the frontier too.
Few other places in Barcelona , Sabadell and Tarragona are blocked too .
All these demonstrations has been without incidents or violence so far.

EagererBeaver

No mention from you Bertie about French riot police forcibly removing these twats from the roads?

bertie 56

EagererBeaver wrote: »

No mention from you Bertie about French riot police forcibly removing these twats from the roads?

Nothing much to say really ...

But since you want details :

The local French Mayor did some negociations yesterday evening between the demonstrators and the French Police .

They succeeded to an agreement : let pass the night quiet everybody and moving the morning after .
A stage being installed on the motorway, it was a night of concerts / singing, etc ... without any incidents with the police.



This morning , the French Police did push the demonstrators towards the South, across the frontier , but not very violently ( few pepper sprays / batons / dragging people on the floor ) . Honestly, and in my opinion, that was a pretty calm evacuation , compares to the BRIMO / CNP that we saw the last few days .
There was no rush, all this took hours...
Few people were arrested, but spent only few hours in the police station ( not days! )



Does this answer your question ?