Catalan independence referendum, 2017

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

...(and please note that I do not include in that description any "second and third generation Arabs" that have successfully integrated into European/Spanish/Catalan culture; these are all valued citizens.
On the other hand, you living among the Catalans, are in danger of acting as part of some Fifth Column which seeks to undermine their culture from within.

I'm puzzled as to how anyone can ever get to be a second or third generation valued citizen if any member of the first generation is reflexively condemned as a fifth columnist.

recedite

Its quite possible to move to another country because you like what that country stands for, and have the intention of integrating.

It can also work the other way. There are loads of examples in the UK of second and third generation British Asians who have adopted islamic styles of dress and become sympathetic to radical Islamists, while their own parent's generation always dressed in western clothes and enjoyed going to the pub for a pint with the locals.

An Ciarraioch

recedite wrote: »

Its quite possible to move to another country because you like what that country stands for, and have the intention of integrating.

It can also work the other way. There are loads of examples in the UK of second and third generation British Asians who have adopted islamic styles of dress and become sympathetic to radical Islamists, while their own parent's generation always dressed in western clothes and enjoyed going to the pub for a pint with the locals.

The upsurge in dual citizenship shown in last year's Census suggests we are at least tentatively moving towards successful integration - certainly if someone takes the trouble to pursue this, they're highly likely to learn the language and play roles in their new communities.

An Ciarraioch

And now the Basques are joining in:

https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/basque-leader-urges-madrid-allow-independence-votes-162831188.html

A Little Pony

EagererBeaver wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

If it is the will of the people in Catalonia then so be it. Put it to the vote.

But it's not? It's the minority of the population.

I want a united Ireland like, but I accept that my view is the minority opinion in the six counties.

Put it to the vote then. Let the people in that region decide. It happened in Scotland and they decided to remain in the UK. I have my own doubts on just how it would function as a country outside of Spain.

EagererBeaver

recedite wrote: »

A lot of Europeans find the actions of the Madrid govt. baffling, but we should remember that Franco's fascists were never defeated. They just mellowed over time. The current generation of islamo-fascists that have infiltrated Europe are no better than those 1930's fascists (and please note that I do not include in that description any "second and third generation Arabs" that have successfully integrated into European/Spanish/Catalan culture; these are all valued citizens.

On the other hand, you living among the Catalans, are in danger of acting as part of some Fifth Column which seeks to undermine their culture from within.

This is amazing. You actually don't have a ****ing clue what you're on about pontificating about Franco and fascism.

Rajoy heads up a PP minority government and is thus in no position to push through this radical right wing agenda you appear to think they possess. PSOE, Podemos and C's all oppose Catalan independence as well.

I support their right for self determination, but it had to be both democratic and legal. There appears to be this idea that this is "democracy in action" when in reality, the pro independence Catalan Govern (which is made up of several parties with significantly differing political views on other topics apart from independence) have run roughshod over their own parliamentary rules, the statute of autonomy that gives them legitimacy and the Constitution that was approved by an overwhelming majority of the population. There is nothing democratic about this referendum at all.

recedite

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I support their right for self determination, but it had to be both democratic and legal....
.. There is nothing democratic about this referendum at all.

A referendum is, by definition, democratic.

Can you roughly sketch out your ideas for any possible alternative road map open to them that would have been "both democratic and legal"?

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

A referendum is, by definition, democratic.

Well, do you consider the referenda conducted by Adolf Hitler democratic?

josip

EagererBeaver wrote: »

This is amazing. You actually don't have a ****ing clue what you're on about pontificating about Franco and fascism.

Rajoy heads up a PP minority government and is thus in no position to push through this radical right wing agenda you appear to think they possess. PSOE, Podemos and C's all oppose Catalan independence as well.

I support their right for self determination, but it had to be both democratic and legal. There appears to be this idea that this is "democracy in action" when in reality, the pro independence Catalan Govern (which is made up of several parties with significantly differing political views on other topics apart from independence) have run roughshod over their own parliamentary rules, the statute of autonomy that gives them legitimacy and the Constitution that was approved by an overwhelming majority of the population. There is nothing democratic about this referendum at all.

Eagerer, I have a very simplistic view of the quest for independence based on mainstream media, some history I may not remember correctly and a very interesting fiction novel set in the time that Franco was putting locals in the prison up on the hill. Can you perhaps correct any of the following things I thought to be correct please? (genuine question)

1. Most Catalans don't/didn't like Franco
2. Many Catalans associate the Madrid government with a continuation of Franco's rule.
3. Catalans contribute more financially than they take from Spain's budget.
4. Catalonia is thus subsidising the other regions (may not be the only region subsidising).
5. According to the constitution Catalonia cannot legally have a referendum and leave Spain unless a majority of the other regions agree.
6. Why would any of the regions agree to Catalonia leaving if it's going to impact them negatively financially.
7. Their isn't any way Catalonia can ever legally leave Spain.
8. If this was happening at an individual level where somebody agreed to join a religious organisation and some years later they wanted to leave, but weren't allowed to by the other members. If the other members continued to coerce them into contributing a percentage of their income annually, would that be fair?

LeinsterDub

recedite wrote: »

A referendum is, by definition, democratic.

Can you roughly sketch out your ideas for any possible alternative road map open to them that would have been "both democratic and legal"?

Referendums, unless very carefully crafted and targeted are often highly undemocratic. Biases or loaded wording , unfair campaigning and gerrymandering are all major issues to name a few

EagererBeaver

recedite wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I support their right for self determination, but it had to be both democratic and legal....
.. There is nothing democratic about this referendum at all.

A referendum is, by definition, democratic.

Can you roughly sketch out your ideas for any possible alternative road map open to them that would have been "both democratic and legal"?

This is the most ridiculous thing you've come out with yet. Puigdemont insists that the result is binding, despite the fact a majority of the electorate will boycott it or, because of the way it has been organised and Madrid's attempt to stop it, will be unable to participate.

The solution here, as always, is dialogue and time.

EagererBeaver

Hope this answers your q's.

josip wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

This is amazing. You actually don't have a ****ing clue what you're on about pontificating about Franco and fascism.

Rajoy heads up a PP minority government and is thus in no position to push through this radical right wing agenda you appear to think they possess. PSOE, Podemos and C's all oppose Catalan independence as well.

I support their right for self determination, but it had to be both democratic and legal. There appears to be this idea that this is "democracy in action" when in reality, the pro independence Catalan Govern (which is made up of several parties with significantly differing political views on other topics apart from independence) have run roughshod over their own parliamentary rules, the statute of autonomy that gives them legitimacy and the Constitution that was approved by an overwhelming majority of the population. There is nothing democratic about this referendum at all.

Eagerer, I have a very simplistic view of the quest for independence based on mainstream media, some history I may not remember correctly and a very interesting fiction novel set in the time that Franco was putting locals in the prison up on the hill. Can you perhaps correct any of the following things I thought to be correct please? (genuine question)

1. Most Catalans don't/didn't like Franco Correct
2. Many Catalans associate the Madrid government with a continuation of Franco's rule. incorrect. Those few that do spout bull**** propaganda. I don't recall that their kids were taught in Catalan, they flew the senyera or had autonomy under Franco
3. Catalans contribute more financially than they take from Spain's budget.
4. Catalonia is thus subsidising the other regions (may not be the only region subsidising). true to both, but as always, the economics of the matter can't just be simplified thus. Puigdemont has completely whiffed on the EU question. Catalunya trades more with Aragon than with the whole of France. It's not simply a question of "taking back control"
5. According to the constitution Catalonia cannot legally have a referendum and leave Spain unless a majority of the other regions agree. I'm not sure if the regional governments have to endorse it. The national population certainly do to bring about constitutional change
6. Why would any of the regions agree to Catalonia leaving if it's going to impact them negatively financially. Politics - Podemos don't support independence but wants the referendum to go ahead. To set precedent would be another option.
7. Their isn't any way Catalonia can ever legally leave Spain. Well there is, as discussed above, so not sure why you threw this one in. At this particular time however? No, most likely not
8. If this was happening at an individual level where somebody agreed to join a religious organisation and some years later they wanted to leave, but weren't allowed to by the other members. If the other members continued to coerce them into contributing a percentage of their income annually, would that be fair? Several things wrong with this analogy, primarily the fact that the "person" isn't a majority of the Catalan population.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, do you consider the referenda conducted by Adolf Hitler democratic?

Yes, in the early ones anyway when everyone was allowed to vote.
You can't just label something as undemocratic because you don't like the party that gets a good result (though protesting the result of a democratic vote does seem to have become a thing recently)

lawred2

recedite wrote: »

Yes, in the early ones anyway when everyone was allowed to vote.
You can't just label something as undemocratic because you don't like the party that gets a good result (though protesting the result of a democratic vote does seem to have become a thing recently)

that remains within the realms of democracy

recedite

Does anyone know whether Madrid succeeded in gaining control of the Mossos d'Esquadra?
The situation is unclear, but it seems that the majority of officers are unhappy about any transfer of control.
I think there was supposed to be a meeting about it today.
http://www.ccma.cat/324/els-mossos-desquadra-no-accepten-posar-se-sota-la-coordinacio-de-lestat/noticia/2810620/

An Ciarraioch

The website of the ANC (pro-indy civic group) has reportedly been shut down by the Guardia Civil:

https://mobile.twitter.com/catalannews/status/912427719941599232

FTA69

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The website of the ANC (pro-indy civic group) has reportedly been shut down by the Guardia Civil:

https://mobile.twitter.com/catalannews/status/912427719941599232

This is utterly disgusting.

recedite

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

D debate on Catalonia today at 5, so Coveney will have to officially comment on the matter.

Dail "debate" here (its not very long).
Looks like Coveney evaded it.
But Helen McEntee was there. The official govt. position as put forward by FG seems to be to stand back and not to comment on anything that Madrid does.

FG wrote:

I believe it is for all Spanish citizens to determine for themselves, using their democratic institutions and legal safeguards, their preferred constitutional and political arrangements.I do not consider it either appropriate or helpful that Ireland would enter the debate.

Sinn Fein are not surprisingly a bit more pro-Catalan;

SF wrote:

Clearly, the idea of standing idly by and watching what is unfolding in Catalonia is unacceptable. The Minister of State's response is deeply disappointing. I do not think it reflects the views of people in Ireland. Yesterday, we saw heavily armed police try to frustrate attempts to have a democratic referendum and to stop a democratically-elected government from carrying out its electoral mandate.

Here's Coveney a few years ago sneaking around with Sutherland outside a Bilderberg meeting. These kind of guys seem to gain power and influence by supporting whichever status quo best suits the banksters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO5K_bxxNQc

CroFag

What is going on now in Catalonia, it's not very clear how the police intends to stop the people from attending the referendum poling-stations?

An Ciarraioch

CroFag wrote: »

What is going on now in Catalonia, it's not very clear how the police intends to stop the people from attending the referendum poling-stations?

Plan appears to be to ask owners of the polling stations to hand over ballot boxes and papers:

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/mossos-owners-polling-stations-details-referendum_195402_102.html

An Ciarraioch

And now, the polling stations themselves are to be blocked off:

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/public-prosecutor-mossos-close-polling-stations-referendum_195453_102.html

FTA69

The dockers have already shown fantastic spirit by refusing to service the thousands of Guardia currently moored at the dock. Hopefully other workers join suit and the people of Catalonia take the streets if necessary in order to exercise their right to vote. The reaction from the Spanish state is ridiculous now and the concern of democrats anywhere.

recedite

The Madrid govt. seems intent on getting the Mossos to do their dirty work for them. The optics will be much better if the Guardia and whoever else is on board those ships can stay out of sight, and then depart on Oct. 2nd without really being deployed. At the same time, the very fact that they are there is being used as an intimidation tactic.

Samaris

This is a really...well, it seems to be a really stupid way of dealing with this.

What does this do? All it appears to indicate is that Catalonia is -SPANISH- and will -REMAIN SPANISH- regardless of what the people think about it. That sort of heavy-handedness just boils resentment up. Prior to all this, the people wanted a referendum by a large margin, but actually seemed more inclined to stay in Spain. They just wanted the chance to have a say and settle things for a bit.

Now? God knows. But this is the sort of thing that leads to civil unrest and worse. People are extremely bloody-minded and generally don't take well to being strong-armed.

An Ciarraioch

I'd imagine the turnout will be higher than the BBC predicts (55-60%, perhaps), but the logistical challenges seem real enough:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41398627

recedite

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

I'd imagine the turnout will be higher than the BBC predicts (55-60%, perhaps), but the logistical challenges seem real enough:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41398627

The problem here is that we are not talking about "turnout" in the normal sense of the word; as in the people who are bothered to vote.
We are talking about the % of people that will actually succeed in voting, bearing in mind that ballot papers have been confiscated, websites shut down, public officials arrested and detained, the advertised polling centre buildings are being closed, and armed paramilitary police will be roaming the streets with orders to prevent the people from voting.

In that scenario, it is hard to see how the Catalan govt. can achieve a high enough turnout to give the referendum result a proper democratic legitimacy. Which is exactly what the Madrid govt. is aiming for.

On a side note, I think Tweety Pie is going to get himself a bad name in Barcelona
The paint job on that cruise ship/troop ship pictured in the link is truly bizarre, given the menacing purpose for it being there.

The Golden Miller

recedite wrote: »

The paint job on that cruise ship/troop ship pictured in the link is truly bizarre, given the menacing purpose for it being there.

I suppose it's to distract the wider world from the heavy handed nature of the Spanish government with a bit of cuddly humour, to show they aren't the bad guys here

An Ciarraioch

Schools are forming a network in a bid to ensure polls open:

https://escolesobertes.eu

recedite

More calls from Catalonia for help to the European Commission, but still falling on deaf ears.

Barcelona Mayor Colau, who is against secession but wants a referendum to be held on the issue, called on the EU to “defend the fundamental rights of Catalan citizens against a wave of repression from the Spanish state.”

Arcade_Tryer

recedite wrote: »

In that scenario, it is hard to see how the Catalan govt. can achieve a high enough turnout to give the referendum result a proper democratic legitimacy. Which is exactly what the Madrid govt. is aiming for
.

Turnout aside, this referendum is tainted before it even starts. Any result should not be taken seriously. The whole fiasco is making a mockery of modern democracy, and all sides share the blame. At the moment, expect a Yes vote given the fanatical nature of the secessionists; can those wishing to vote No in this farce even rely on the sanctity of a secret ballot?