Opt-Out Organ Donation

howiya

biko wrote: »

Chuffed that only two people have spelled donor "doner" so far

I'm a donor myself but would not be in favour of the French option.
My organs are actually mine even when I am dead.
I personally have signed away the rights to them (or my family can) but I would hate for the government/HSE feel they can just barge in and take what they want from me without my expressed consent.

Under the current system here your family could override your expressed consent.

The French option still involves your consent

biko

I trust my family. I don't trust the HSE.

howiya

biko wrote: »

I trust my family. I don't trust the HSE.

Presumably the HSE would be conducting the transplant?

222233

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Yes but by asking them a YES/NO question you take people not being "bothered" out of the equation.
They have to pick an answer unlike the current system.
Even ask them face-to-face when applying for a Drivers Licence.

Is it not just more logical to assume that everyone will willingly take on the role of a donor but some people may choose opt-out?

I wonder if there are any statistics available regarding people's opinions on organ donation. I tend to assume everyone would want to be a donor (which I know is untrue), but are there more people who want to be donors or more people who don't?

jackofalltrades

osarusan wrote: »

Why the assumption that opting out would be costly or troublesome?

In France you have to send a letter by registered post at the moment.

Upon reaching 18, every person could get a donor card along with a letter which explains that they are now on the list of donors, and here is why being a donor is so helpful, but if they want to opt out, the can call this number/visit this website and have the ID code on the back of the card.

Why just put people on a list without asking them?
There's no need for it, when there are plenty of opportunities to ask them to opt-in.

bnt

Looks like opt-out organ donation is back on the table, at least:

Health Minister Simon Harris has proposed a new bill to establish an "opt-out" organ donation system in Ireland.

The Human Tissue Bill will put in place a system of “presumed consent” for organ donation to replace the current system that requires people to opt in if they wish to make their organs available for transplantation following their death.

El_Duderino 09

Great news. As long as it's simple to opt out then everyone benefits. Those who care enough to simply opt out get what they want, those who don't care won't mind either way.

Poor Uncle Tom

Vic_08 wrote: »

It's not fine, people die every day waiting for transplants while viable organs are left to rot in a pine box.

Those boxes haven't been pine in a hell of a long time...

weldoninhio

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Great news. As long as it's simple to opt out then everyone benefits. Those who care enough to simply opt out get what they want, those who don't care won't mind either way.

It's a farce. Hopefully someone with a brain in the Dail will stop this.

Poor Uncle Tom

biko wrote: »

Chuffed that only two people have spelled donor "doner" so far

I'm a donor myself but would not be in favour of the French option.
My organs are actually mine even when I am dead.
I personally have signed away the rights to them (or my family can) but I would hate for the government/HSE feel they can just barge in and take what they want from me without my expressed consent.

It would only be a matter of time before the HSE found a way to harvest everyones organs and sell them off, just because they could. Shower of Cu*ts, need the extra bonuses...

Capt'n Midnight

weldoninhio wrote: »

It's a farce. Hopefully someone with a brain in the Dail will stop this.

That's unlikely, unless you'd like to donate yours.

AudreyHepburn

I think it's a great idea personally - the shortage of available organs is nothing short of shocking.

My next of kin know my wishes and respect them but at the end of the day they are my wishes either way and I don't believe next of kin should have a say expect obviously in the case of a child.

maudgonner

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think it's a great idea personally - the shortage of available organs is nothing short of shocking.

My next of kin know my wishes and respect them but at the end of the day they are my wishes either way and I don't believe next of kin should have a say expect obviously in the case of a child.

They still will. Next of kin will be able to opt out under the system that has been discussed.

I think that's ok tbh. I'll be dead, it's my family that have to live with the consequences. So while I hope they would agree with my decision to have all my organs donated (I've discussed it with them and made it clear that it's something I feel strongly about), if that's not something they could handle then that's fine.

weldoninhio

I read somewhere that it's costing the state up to €500,000 a year to keep a person on dialysis while waiting for a donor. I'd be willing to sign up as an organ donor, as I'm sure many others would, for a fee of say €50k. Once there are organs ready to go, the length of dialysis is cut, so the savings would be made there to pay me. Doesn't seem like rocket science.

maudgonner

weldoninhio wrote: »

I read somewhere that it's costing the state up to €500,000 a year to keep a person on dialysis while waiting for a donor. I'd be willing to sign up as an organ donor, as I'm sure many others would, for a fee of say €50k. Once there are organs ready to go, the length of dialysis is cut, so the savings would be made there to pay me. Doesn't seem like rocket science.

I can see why you're not volunteering to be a heart donor anyway.

Peregrinus

weldoninhio wrote: »

I read somewhere that it's costing the state up to €500,000 a year to keep a person on dialysis while waiting for a donor. I'd be willing to sign up as an organ donor, as I'm sure many others would, for a fee of say €50k. Once there are organs ready to go, the length of dialysis is cut, so the savings would be made there to pay me. Doesn't seem like rocket science.

1. Nobody is going to pay you €50k now for the promise of organs when you die. Depending on when when and how you die, your organs may or may not be suitable for transplant. Nobody will give you any money until you actually deliver an organ.

2. The good news is that you don't have to die to donate a kidney and so get someone off dialysis. You've got two kidneys, and you can get by pretty well with just the one. So, if offered €50k for a kidney now, would you accept?

BBDBB

Im working hard to make sure my liver isn't usable to be fair

AudreyHepburn

weldoninhio wrote: »

I read somewhere that it's costing the state up to €500,000 a year to keep a person on dialysis while waiting for a donor. I'd be willing to sign up as an organ donor, as I'm sure many others would, for a fee of say €50k. Once there are organs ready to go, the length of dialysis is cut, so the savings would be made there to pay me. Doesn't seem like rocket science.

So you want a fee before you'll consider saving some-one's life? How heartless and selfish are you?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

They're no good to me if I'm dead so work away and take whatever they want as far as I'm concerned

judeboy101

I wont donate my organs because like blood transfusions, the government will profit of my gift. Private patients pay for their blood and will bo doubt pay for their organs (hse will use creative accounting).

Peregrinus

judeboy101 wrote: »

I wont donate my organs because like blood transfusions, the government will profit of my gift. Private patients pay for their blood and will bo doubt pay for their organs (hse will use creative accounting).

You're in a no-win situation here, judeboy. The state will also profit when the patient dies for want of the transplant organ that you could have provided but chose not to. They can stop treating him, and of course they'll avoid the cost of the transplant operation.

judeboy101

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're in a no-win situation here, judeboy. The state will also profit when the patient dies for want of the transplant organ that you could have provided but chose not to. They can stop treating him, and of course they'll avoid the cost of the transplant operation.

But they wont be profiting from my donation

ohnonotgmail

the milk of human kindness is really flowing through this thread.

Peregrinus

Either way, they'll be profiting from your decision. Your choice is whether to allow them to profit from your decision to save a life, or to allow them to profit from your decision to let someone die.

In other words, maybe the most important consideration here isn't the financial implications for the exchequer. Worth thinking about, anyway.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

judeboy101 wrote: »

But they wont be profiting from my donation

http://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/news/243666/offaly-boy-forced-to-wait-for-transplant-as-donor-liver-found-to-be-damaged.html

There's cases like this life and death situations, real people, small kids lives riding on people's donations. It's your body and your organs but the sole reason of not donating to get one over on the government is really petty when there seems people actually dying. Your organs will be left to decay in a wooden box in the ground, when they could give a child the chance to live a normal life.

Parchment

I cant imagine not wanting to donate your organs. Its such a wonderful act that can essentially give someone else life.

Cee-Jay-Cee

judeboy101 wrote: »

I wont donate my organs because like blood transfusions, the government will profit of my gift. Private patients pay for their blood and will bo doubt pay for their organs (hse will use creative accounting).

I'm assuming you equally would not be willing to receive an organ in the event of a medical emergency. You are such a selfish selfless person.

weldoninhio

Peregrinus wrote: »

1. Nobody is going to pay you €50k now for the promise of organs when you die. Depending on when when and how you die, your organs may or may not be suitable for transplant. Nobody will give you any money until you actually deliver an organ.

2. The good news is that you don't have to die to donate a kidney and so get someone off dialysis. You've got two kidneys, and you can get by pretty well with just the one. So, if offered €50k for a kidney now, would you accept?

I would.

weldoninhio

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

So you want a fee before you'll consider saving some-one's life? How heartless and selfish are you?

No, I am willing to save the govt money. €50k to save €450,000 seems a good deal.

Glenster

I don't know why you'd need permission.

1st of all you don't need to give permission because you're dead. You don't exist anymore.

And by giving family the veto are you not saying that they own your corpse? Are people allowed to own corpses?

judeboy101

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I'm assuming you equally would not be willing to receive an organ in the event of a medical emergency. You are such a selfish selfless person.

No problem accepting as I have private health insurance and will be charged handsomely by the HSE for the privilege

AudreyHepburn

judeboy101 wrote: »

But they wont be profiting from my donation

What a lovely person you are. I hope you, nor anyone you love, ever end up needing a donation.

AudreyHepburn

judeboy101 wrote: »

No problem accepting as I have private health insurance and will be charged handsomely by the HSE for the privilege

Double standards of the highest order there. On top of your selfishness.

AudreyHepburn

weldoninhio wrote: »

No, I am willing to save the govt money. €50k to save €450,000 seems a good deal.

It's selfishness and pettiness of the highest order, nothing more.

antodeco

They can have what they want, bar my eyes. No point wasting lungs, heart, kidneys, etc. In fact, in a way, you get to live on!

maudgonner

Glenster wrote: »

I don't know why you'd need permission.

1st of all you don't need to give permission because you're dead. You don't exist anymore.

And by giving family the veto are you not saying that they own your corpse? Are people allowed to own corpses?

Next of kin have a right to dictate what medical treatment you receive in the event that you are no longer capable of making your own decision. This isn't all that different.

I don't think someone can 'own' a corpse, but they do have the right to control what happens to it. There have been plenty of cases with arguments over where someone is buried or who gets the ashes after cremation.


Whether the body is a corpse at the time of donation is something that could be arguable anyway. At what point does a body become a corpse? For organ donation (non-live donation), while the donor has to be brain-dead their heart will be kept beating until it is harvested.

ohnonotgmail

Glenster wrote: »

I don't know why you'd need permission.

1st of all you don't need to give permission because you're dead. You don't exist anymore.

And by giving family the veto are you not saying that they own your corpse? Are people allowed to own corpses?

by saying that they dont need permission are you saying that the state owns your corpse after you die?

Armchair Andy

AudreyHepburn wrote:

What a lovely person you are. I hope you, nor anyone you love, ever end up needing a donation.

AudreyHepburn wrote:

Double standards of the highest order there. On top of your selfishness.

AudreyHepburn wrote:

It's selfishness and pettiness of the highest order, nothing more.

Why resort to insulting those who have a different opinion than yours?

Mine might need a good power washing before being passed on but whatever bits they can use have at em.

Only thing I ask is if they do find lungs that have been severely tarred from years of smoking, please don't do a dead foetus job on them and throw em in the bin. Lob em back into the coffin please, afford my children some respect should that kind of procedure ever come to light.

El_Duderino 09

weldoninhio wrote: »

It's a farce. Hopefully someone with a brain in the Dail will stop this.

I disagree but you didn't make an argument so it's hard to say any more.

I see 2 main groups involved. People who have strong feelings about what should happen to their organs after death and people who need organ transplants.

As long as the opt out is simple then neither group is significantly inconvenienced but one group stands to benefit significantly. I'd say the brains have already spoken on this issue.

Glenster

maudgonner wrote: »

Whether the body is a corpse at the time of donation is something that could be arguable anyway. At what point does a body become a corpse? For organ donation (non-live donation), while the donor has to be brain-dead their heart will be kept beating until it is harvested.

Can you donate your vital organs if you're still alive though? Surely you'd have to be medically dead before they could harvest your organs.

maudgonner

Glenster wrote: »

Can you donate your vital organs if you're still alive though? Surely you'd have to be medically dead before they could harvest your organs.

You can donate e.g. a kidney or a lobe of your liver when you're alive, known as a live organ donation.

As I said, for a non-live donation you need to be declared brain-dead, but your heart is kept beating (through artificial life support) to keep the organs healthy during the harvesting process, until the heart itself is harvested. That's my understanding of the process anyway, and my experience of it with an extended relative.

Glenster

maudgonner wrote: »

You can donate e.g. a kidney or a lobe of your liver when you're alive, known as a live organ donation.

As I said, for a non-live donation you need to be declared brain-dead, but your heart is kept beating (through artificial life support) to keep the organs healthy during the harvesting process, until the heart itself is harvested. That's my understanding of the process anyway, and my experience of it with an extended relative.

Its fairly cut and dry whether you're dead then isn't it.

osarusan

1. Sell kidney for €50,000.
2. Travel to poor country and buy new kidney for say €5,000.
3. Sell kidney in Ireland for €50,000 (sell the new kidney, always keep your own original kidney, that's the pro-tip here).
4. Repeat and repeat.
5. PROFIT!!!

I made one of those PROFIT!!! things and didn't even need a line of ?????

maudgonner

Glenster wrote: »

Its fairly cut and dry whether you're dead then isn't it.

Your question was whether you're dead, a corpse or not.

I don't know what the legal definition of a corpse is (or even whether there is one) , but in most jurisdictions there are two categories of legal death: brain-death and cardiopulmonary-death.

So not exactly cut and dried in the way you described. For organ donation brain-death is required. But whether you're a corpse at that point, I don't know. For example, I don't think death is declared until the heart is stopped. You'd need a lawyer to answer that one, thankfully I'm not a lawyer :pac:

Glenster

maudgonner wrote: »

Your question was whether you're dead, a corpse or not.

I don't know what the legal definition of a corpse is (or even whether there is one) , but in most jurisdictions there are two categories of legal death: brain-death and cardiopulmonary-death.

So not exactly cut and dried in the way you described. For organ donation brain-death is required. But whether you're a corpse at that point, I don't know. For example, I don't think death is declared until the heart is stopped. You'd need a lawyer to answer that one, thankfully I'm not a lawyer :pac:

Brain death is death. Universally and unchallengeably.

ohnonotgmail

Glenster wrote: »

Brain death is death. Universally and unchallengeably.

Death can be either brain death or pulmonary death. If somebodies heart stops beating and doctors cannot resuscitate then they are dead even though their brain may continue to function until it is starved of oxygen.

maudgonner

Glenster wrote: »

Brain death is death. Universally and unchallengeably.

No it isn't? You can't bury someone who's still on life support.

Richard Hillman

I have a donor card and think this is a good idea.

My one problem is that with most people having their organs removed after death, there will be a surplus on organs. Some charlatan government will probably see this as a money making exercise to flog off the organs abroad and anybody that disagrees with it will have Helen Lovejoy calling us racists.

maudgonner

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I have a donor card and think this is a good idea.

My one problem is that with most people having their organs removed after death, there will be a surplus on organs. Some charlatan government will probably see this as a money making exercise to flog off the organs abroad and anybody that disagrees with it will have Helen Lovejoy calling us racists.

As long as it isn't depriving an Irish person of organs I have absolutely no problem with my organs being donated to someone overseas.

Glenster

maudgonner wrote: »

No it isn't? You can't bury someone who's still on life support.

That's only because there's no mains access down there.