Insulation above ceiling in attic room

vidapura

Bought a house, its a bungalow with an attic conversion.
Just found out that the the rooms in the attic don't have insulation on the stud walls or in the ceilings.

I am thinking of tearing the whole lot down at some stage but am wondering if there is a temporary fix I can do.

I can get into a crawlspace and put insulation on the other side of the stud walls.
(anyone know how much the stuff costs?)

But the head scratcher is how the hell to get insulation up the sloped sides and the onto the flat of the ceiling.

I'm thinking I'll just have to take down the ceilings and put up insulated plasterboard in its place?
But was wondering if I could avoid doin that ...

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated...

MicktheMan

Before you go tearing anything down, you could do worse than having a survey done to pinpoint what is at play in regards to the heat loss mechanisms. Nought worse than spending on insulation improvements and noticing no real improvement.

RobAMerc

micktheman is right - but you could get the insulation blown in

you need to make sure air can circulate too remember

Calahonda52

https://www.nsai.ie/S-R-54-2014-Code-of-Practice.aspx

Depending on future plans and your budget, don't dismiss external roof insulation, thus making all the space usable

aujopimur

You can fix shelter board to the existing ceiling, and rigid kingspan to the studs.

Calahonda52

aujopimur wrote: »

You can fix shelter board to the existing ceiling, and rigid kingspan to the studs.

While yes he/she can do that, its the wrong answer because, assuming the existing pb is skimmed, then the ceiling is vapour proof, on the cold side, which means moisture can't get through it, but it will condense out on the skim, which is a wonderful substrate for growing mould.

The basic science is important here which is that the vapour barrier needs to be on the warm side and then reduced resistance to moisture transmission as the buildup gets colder from inside to outside.

Similar considerations apply to the rigid

vidapura

Calahonda52 wrote: »

https://www.nsai.ie/S-R-54-2014-Code-of-Practice.aspx

Depending on future plans and your budget, don't dismiss external roof insulation, thus making all the space usable

External roof insulation??

Now thats a new one on me... whats it look like?
Would ye need planning then if the exterior appearance changed?

vidapura

MicktheMan wrote: »

Before you go tearing anything down, you could do worse than having a survey done to pinpoint what is at play in regards to the heat loss mechanisms. Nought worse than spending on insulation improvements and noticing no real improvement.

Thats great advice actually.. I was just going on how feckin cold it is up there...
But I do have guys coming round to power flush the heating system and they promised to bring a heat camera with them next trip.

So twill be interesting to see but I'd be pretty sure the heat is just flying out of the roof.

Calahonda52

PM sent

Its not cheap but if done right is a majorly beneficial job.
The roof profile would not change that much, especially if some of the insulation is fitted between the rafters

vidapura

Calahonda52 wrote: »

While yes he/she can do that, its the wrong answer because, assuming the existing pb is skimmed, then the ceiling is vapour proof, on the cold side, which means moisture can't get through it, but it will condense out on the skim, which is a wonderful substrate for growing mould.

Yep, the pb is skimmed.. so its very deceptive.. the rooms look great... its only when you spend time in them you realise how cold they are and then when yeh go into the crawlspace to investigate you notice the lack of insulation...

Now it gets more complicated cos they (previous owners) put polystyrene directly on the roof.. between the timbers and against the slates...
But then also put some mulchy stuff on the flat .. above the ceilings...
So you'd think it'd be warm..

But the whole thing is done wrong anyway.. the mulchy stuff goes all the way to the eaves and is preventing air coming in to circulate at the timbers.

As in.. its not done either of these two ways:


The soffit vents are currently blocked...so I have to pull stuff outta there..
So the rooms are going to get even colder cos the verticals are not insulated..

Water John

With the weather at night later in the week getting quite cold, it is an amatuer opportunity to see your heat loss.

Say your heating comes on at 7.30 am. Go out and look at the roof after an hour or two and see where it has thawed, where it is poorly insulated.

Calahonda52

:Before you start taking out the mulch stuff, maybe, maybe, there is a concrete "filler" between the roof rafters at the eaves, on top of the wall plate...
If so a few roof vents will sort the ventilation.
Any pictures of the mulch stuff.
Just wondering: how come it took ten posts to get this V 2.0
Now it gets more complicated cos they (previous owners) put polystyrene directly on the roof.. between the timbers and against the slates...
But then also put some mulchy stuff on the flat .. above the ceilings...
So you'd think it'd be warm..

from this in post 1 V1.0
Just found out that the the rooms in the attic don't have insulation on the stud walls or in the ceilings.

I am thinking of tearing the whole lot down at some stage but am wondering if there is a temporary fix I can do.

I can get into a crawlspace and put insulation on the other side of the stud walls.
(anyone know how much the stuff costs?)

But the head scratcher is how the hell to get insulation up the sloped sides and the onto the flat of the ceiling.


The reason I ask is that we wonder what will be the next release V3.0:D

vidapura

Apologies for the confusion.
I didn't really want to get into a really involved post too fast.
Didn't think people would want to hear all my woes to early.. heh..

Basically, what I have is a half arsed attic conversion job and am trying to see if there is a short term fix that I can put in place until I eventually rip the whole lot out and start again.
I suppose my main concerns right now are (a) make sure the insulation isn't going to cause damage to the roof timbers and (b) stop the attic conversion sucking heat out of the place up the stairs.

If you are still interested then I'll take a coupla photos and put them up.

I do appreciate the interest.

Thanks

Calahonda52 wrote: »

:Before you start taking out the mulch stuff, maybe, maybe, there is a concrete "filler" between the roof rafters at the eaves, on top of the wall plate...
If so a few roof vents will sort the ventilation.
Any pictures of the mulch stuff.
Just wondering: how come it took ten posts to get this V 2.0
Now it gets more complicated cos they (previous owners) put polystyrene directly on the roof.. between the timbers and against the slates...
But then also put some mulchy stuff on the flat .. above the ceilings...
So you'd think it'd be warm..

from this in post 1 V1.0
Just found out that the the rooms in the attic don't have insulation on the stud walls or in the ceilings.

I am thinking of tearing the whole lot down at some stage but am wondering if there is a temporary fix I can do.

I can get into a crawlspace and put insulation on the other side of the stud walls.
(anyone know how much the stuff costs?)

But the head scratcher is how the hell to get insulation up the sloped sides and the onto the flat of the ceiling.


The reason I ask is that we wonder what will be the next release V3.0:D

vidapura

I don't know why the bulletin board software has rotated these.. they were taken vertically...


Vertical walls no insulation:





The mulch..

paddylonglegs

I am in a similar situation when it comes to your setup, less the converted room in the attic.

I am in a bungalow, a stairs and landing was built with a standard door access to the attic. There is freezing cold air coming from the attic constantly.

I have been onto a company that have suggested spray foam (of sorts) to the inside of the roof, thus encasing the attic space and house space as one. This will mean heat escaping to attic but hopefully overall will get rid of the cold air flow.

This making sense?????

vidapura

Hi Paddy,
Have a look at the diagram I posted above.
I'm pretty new to this but what I'm reading says that you have to have some airflow over the roof timbers .. otherwise they'll rot.
Dry rot apparently...
So I'm a but suspicious of the whole idea of spraying.. how do the timbers breath then? Where is the air channel as per that diagram?

Though your situation might be easier sort than mine.
If there is nothing upstairs then shur just seal up the door with something like an old duvet in a plastic bag.. or tape or whatever... insulate and seal like..

I had a pulldown staighre in the last rented place, the hatch used to freeze the hall out of it... I put a cover like that (duvet in a bag) on top of the hatch and it made a huge difference.

In my case the second toilet is upstairs and I want to be able to get up and use it when necessary... the roof pitch doesn't allow for a door at the top of the stairs so I hung a curtain rail and a heavy curtain.. And that actually has improved things a good bit.. stops the cold air rolling down the stairs anyway..

But the rooms upstairs with ceilings and all already done.. well.. thats my problem.. cos they aren't insulated .. twill cost a lot to redo from scratch.. but I'll end up doing it eventually..

Water John

Good morning to check if heat is going out through your roof. Where has it thawed?

vidapura

Water John wrote: »

Good morning to check if heat is going out through your roof. Where has it thawed?

Heh,
It would be if there was any snow over this direction.
We were very lucky, just a few icy roads the other day but no snow.

Grassy Knoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057689755/insulation-above-ceiling-in-attic-room

I know this is an ancient thread, but I would be interested in hearing what you did. There is a world of poor attic conversions out there with bad insulation- I know I live in one !!

vidapura

Nothing!!!

So far...

Honest to god, I was driven nuts with all sorts of cowboys saying what they would do. And while I still had misgivings about doing anything to make things even worse.. I just didn't do anything. We stuck a door at the top of the stairs and sealed the attic area off.. used it for storage and left it at that.

Little door at the top of the stairs made a huge difference to temp downstairs BTW. All the heat doesn't just fly up and out..

We had all sorts of suggestions about what to do with the attic then.. Foam sprayers wanted to just shove foam in there with long nozzles etc... and I now find out that they would have shagged me roof cos my felt is the older type and it would have ruined it..

So, yeah. I finally, (last week !) got a proper engineer in and paid him to examine the roof and tell me clearly what to do.

We had decided, to hell with it, lets rip it all out and down and get a proper job done.

First step tho is to get the engineer in to make sure we wouldn't pull the roof down by ripping out the walls etc

The report says we wont .. but .. we learned that we need to get the purlins reinforced cos the previous eejits appear to have taken out trusses ...

So, once we rip it all out we will fix the trussing of the purlins and then get the insulation done properly.

I have 12.5cm deep rafters so recommendation is to put 60mm of rigid insulation in between them. Leaving an 50mm airgap at the back for an air channel to allow timbers to breath.

Then we will go across the face of the rafters with 50mm insulated plasterboard. So we end up with roughly 100mm of insulation.

Basically, we waited this long, so we are determined to just bloody do it right. Tear it all out and do it right, from scratch.

MicktheMan

What's your plan for air tightness?

vidapura

Me?

I don't really have one.. the house has an open fire and a stove so...

I am more worried about damp downstairs so looking at retro-fitting window vents.

And thinkin about a door or an insert stove on the open fire.

Would only love a heat recovery ventilation system but have to get the attic sorted some way first.

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792535#Comment_119792535

The reason I asked is because you say you want to do it right yet make no mention of airtightness whatsoever. Not understanding the importance of air tightness in a dormer conversion will, imho, lead to a sub-optimal result regardless of how well it is insulated.

The Continental Op

Thanks for the update OP, its always nice to hear how things turned out even if it was just adding a door.

vidapura

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805906#Comment_119805906

Ahh yeah, I did say I want to do it right.. but I'm still learning what that means exactly😀

If you have some good info to share in relation to air tightness and the importance of it in this context then I would really appreciate it.

Thanks 😃

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119813122#Comment_119813122

I cannot emphasise enough the importance of air tightness in general in our climate but it is especially important in dormer houses. This information comes from decades of testing houses for heat loss mechanisms. Simply put, convection heat loss (aka air leakage or draughts) is the number one reason why our housing stock loses heat quickly once the heating is turned off.

Conduction heat loss (which insulation addresses) comes a distant 2nd.

The lightbulb moment for most people is the air tightness test itself when it becomes very evident what is happening in their house.

The good news in a diy context is that the solutions are eminently diy'able once the basics are understood and the results will be tangible and real.

This video is an example of good airtight detailing in general (no connection).

vidapura

Thats a good video alright.

The builder I have was talkin about a membrane alright.. will have to dig into him to find out if its the same thing.

I suppose if we make it airtight the next question is about ventilation eh? Don't want to have the place get damp either.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792535#Comment_119792535

Just FYI you can get single room HRVs for any openings you have. They'll set you back a few hundred euro a pop but overall you'd spend more on a centralised system.

vidapura

Oh yah, was lookin at them in the local hardware alright.. nice idea.. but I'm a little bit dubious about the noise of them.

Have a bit of a condensation problem in a bedroom and was lookin at giving that option a go. Bout €250 a pop it looks like.

Thanks, yah, all going in the melting pot for now.. had been lookin more at a centralised system too cos some of them seem to come with a cooling option these days..

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845481#Comment_119845481

Yeah cooling is a big plus, was looking at fan assisted rads with extra piping for cooling with a heat pump but I don't think I fancy the extra outlay/work involved. As for the HRVs you can control them, I have some on order and will have humidity sensors on the way too and will automate the whole lot in Home Assistant. Really depends on how deep into it you want to go. If you can get a centralised system then that's the obvious winner.

vidapura

Hmm, I had n't thought about using things like Home Assistant for this stuff at all.

Are there individual HRV's that can be controlled with wifi or whatever? If so please post a link I'd be very interested.

I have kitchen lights controlled with Sonoff inline switches.. could probably do similar with the HRVs..if they don't draw too much current.. yah.. hadn't even entered my mind.

Great stuff, thanks!

TimHorton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119825972#Comment_119825972

Hi Mick , I have 2 Cold Bedrooms at the north end of my Bungalow , The house is 16 years old and has standard 50mm insulation in 100 mm Cavity. There are no windows on the north end so I intend to Drywall with Insulated Polyiso all external walls. How do I improve Airtightness ? Sockets/Light fitting all standard with Double Glazing, I would like to take it room by room and Improve Attic Insulation too.

MicktheMan

"How do I improve Airtightness ?"

Hi Tim, the short answer is to understand air tightness! (I've seen too many botched jobs done by people who (kind of) knew "what" to do but not "why" they were doing it because they never experienced the test nor had it explained to them on site.)

I assume from this question that you have never experienced an air tightness test before, so the first port of call is to have the house tested maybe as part of an overall heat loss survey and be present during the test. A good tester should not only give you a test result but should take the time to go through and explain the different leakage types and their impacts, available solutions (both long and short term), what materials to use and how to use them etc. This will not only educate you on air tightness but will arm you with all the information and knowledge you'll need to do a proper job.