HAP Tenant - Tenant not paying rent contribution

fowlersleftpeg

I have a tenant in a house for almost 7 years now and she is a single mother of 2 in receipt of HAP payment. On occasion over the years when she was a rent allowance recipient the rent had been late (by up to 2 weeks sometimes) and sometimes she has contacted me to let me know 'the social welfare didnt lodge the money this month and she'll pay double next month'. usually she did, at times i had to pay it to avoid defaulting on the mortgage and she would pay 2 months arrears.
Since moving to the HAP scheme, the council pay 1170 of the 1200 rent and the tenant must lodge the additional €30 herself to my account. For each of the last 7 months I have had to chase her up to lodge the €30. Ok, its not a massive amount but the amount shouldnt matter....!?
I am fed up having to chase this month on month and since mid Dec have been unable to contact the tenant on any of the normal phone numbers she has previously been contacted. Very soon she will be €60 in arrears. As she is in receipt of HAP, do I have any recourse in this situation at all ? . Why should i be expected to cover her shortfall so as i dont default on the mortgage ??

Any advice appreciated !

ED E

Report her to the DSW. She's in breach of her terms. They'll give her a bollicking and hopefully that'll be the end of that.

Mrs OBumble

ED E wrote: »

Report her to the DSW. She's in breach of her terms. They'll give her a bollicking and hopefully that'll be the end of that.

If they cannot contact her, they may also stop paying their share. And then you would be back looking for advice about what to do with her stuff even though technically the tenancy hasn't ended.

4ensic15

Serve a 14 day warning letter.

ED E

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If they cannot contact her, they may also stop paying their share. And then you would be back looking for advice about what to do with her stuff even though technically the tenancy hasn't ended.

A quick test there is to turn on delivery reports on your phone and send her a message. If its received she's just ignoring you.

Gatling

Seems to a have a history of the same cash payment issues ,
Id be thinking of time for a new tenant

Sleeper12

It's slightly less than 7 Euro per week. This would wreak my head more than someone owing hundreds. I'd feel like she's taking the p##s.

Nomis21

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It's slightly less than 7 Euro per week. This would wreak my head more than someone owing hundreds. I'd feel like she's taking the p##s.

If she is a HAP tenant, this means that you should be getting the full amount of the rent paid directly to you direct from the council. The tenant will pay their contribution of the rent directly to the council on a weekly basis directly from their benefit. If the tenant needs to pay you 30 Euro per month on top of what she pays to the council, this would be an amount agreed by you with the tenant and if this 30 euro pushed the rent total above the legal limit of the maximum rent level for your area, then it would be an illegal payment unless it was for services other than rent.

Graces7

Nomis21 wrote: »

If she is a HAP tenant, this means that you should be getting the full amount of the rent paid directly to you direct from the council. The tenant will pay their contribution of the rent directly to the council on a weekly basis directly from their benefit. If the tenant needs to pay you 30 Euro per month on top of what she pays to the council, this would be an amount agreed by you with the tenant and if this 30 euro pushed the rent total above the legal limit of the maximum rent level for your area, then it would be an illegal payment unless it was for services other than rent.

Well and neatly said. I had thought the same. HAP cannot be subverted in the way the OP avers.

fowlersleftpeg

The 30 brings the rent almost up to the market amount for the area and still below the maximum rent level.

Graces7

Nomis21 wrote: »

If she is a HAP tenant, this means that you should be getting the full amount of the rent paid directly to you direct from the council. The tenant will pay their contribution of the rent directly to the council on a weekly basis directly from their benefit. If the tenant needs to pay you 30 Euro per month on top of what she pays to the council, this would be an amount agreed by you with the tenant and if this 30 euro pushed the rent total above the legal limit of the maximum rent level for your area, then it would be an illegal payment unless it was for services other than rent.

Is that allowed? It is not with Rent Allowance.

Gatling

Graces7 wrote: »

Is that allowed? It is not with Rent Allowance.

You can top up HAP legally ,
It's actually likely to replace rent supplement in the future

Nomis21

fowlersleftpeg wrote: »

The 30 brings the rent almost up to the market amount for the area and still below the maximum rent level.

The maximum rent that your tenant can pay on the HAP scheme is decided by your county council. It has nothing to do with your estimation of the average or maximum rent for your area.

Your tenant should not be paying you ANY money directly to yourself. Be careful.

If the county council discovers that you are receiving extra money from your tenant over and above the rent payable to you by them, the County Council may decide to discontinue all payments to you.

Nomis21

Gatling wrote: »

You can top up HAP legally ,
It's actually likely to replace rent supplement in the future

Are you saying that the tenant can legally make top-ups direct to the Landlord on the HAP scheme?

Do you have any online reference for that?

Graces7

Gatling wrote: »

You can top up HAP legally ,
It's actually likely to replace rent supplement in the future

OK.I am apparently allowed to stay on rent supplement although the region i am moving to has HAP because of my age and I read also that those already on rs can do the same?

The_Conductor

Nomis21 wrote: »

If she is a HAP tenant, this means that you should be getting the full amount of the rent paid directly to you direct from the council. The tenant will pay their contribution of the rent directly to the council on a weekly basis directly from their benefit. If the tenant needs to pay you 30 Euro per month on top of what she pays to the council, this would be an amount agreed by you with the tenant and if this 30 euro pushed the rent total above the legal limit of the maximum rent level for your area, then it would be an illegal payment unless it was for services other than rent.

It depends entirely on the manner in which the local authority operate- they do not operate the HAP or the HAS schemes in a standard manner, unfortunately (and despite instruction from the Department to do so).

In most cases the tenant will pay their portion of the rent directly to the local authority (or council) who will then pay the entire sum to the landlord- however, there are a few local authorities who continue to operate as the landlord has outlined.

As to it being an illegal payment if it pushed the total over the legal maximum level for the area- the answer is- it depends. In some local authorities over half of all HAP and HAS payments are excluded from the local limits- on the grounds the scheme limits are so far divorced from local market rates for the areas concerned.

The correct course of action for the landlord in this instance is to serve a 14 day notice of arrears to the tenant (full details are on the RTB's website).

Graces7

The_Conductor wrote: »

It depends entirely on the manner in which the local authority operate- they do not operate the HAP or the HAS schemes in a standard manner, unfortunately (and despite instruction from the Department to do so).

In most cases the tenant will pay their portion of the rent directly to the local authority (or council) who will then pay the entire sum to the landlord- however, there are a few local authorities who continue to operate as the landlord has outlined.

As to it being an illegal payment if it pushed the total over the legal maximum level for the area- the answer is- it depends. In some local authorities over half of all HAP and HAS payments are excluded from the local limits- on the grounds the scheme limits are so far divorced from local market rates for the areas concerned.

The correct course of action for the landlord in this instance is to serve a 14 day notice of arrears to the tenant (full details are on the RTB's website).

It sounds a very complicated system that also seems unfair to the tenant? Having to find extra cash atop what she is paying already to the council? Or do the reduce that to compensate ?

Mrs OBumble

Graces7 wrote: »

It sounds a very complicated system that also seems unfair to the tenant? Having to find extra cash atop what she is paying already to the council? Or do the reduce that to compensate ?

Many would say that uts more fair, because it lets the tenant trade off higjer rent in a better location vs lower rent with higher travel costs.

Graces7

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Many would say that uts more fair, because it lets the tenant trade off higjer rent in a better location vs lower rent with higher travel costs.

Interesting slant. But am thinking of how they calculate her need and entitlement and ability to pay? Allowing then for this? Or are they unaware? I mean she will surely have to list this payment when she is means tested?

Sleeper12

Graces7 wrote:

Interesting slant. But am thinking of how they calculate her need and entitlement and ability to pay? Allowing then for this? Or are they unaware? I mean she will surely have to list this payment when she is means tested?

You did read that the tenant only pays 30 euro per month while the state are paying 1070 rent for her. I don't begrudge her this at all but I can't see how this is unfair on her?

The_Conductor

Graces7 wrote: »

It sounds a very complicated system that also seems unfair to the tenant? Having to find extra cash atop what she is paying already to the council? Or do the reduce that to compensate ?

Thats just it though- depending on how the scheme is administered- the tenant pays their share to either the local authority or council- or the landlord- not both. It suits the landlord if the tenant pays the local authority- as this means they don't have to chase the tenant for their share of the rent- the local authority then pays the rent in full to the landlord.

It is not the case that the tenant pays both the local authority and the landlord- they pay one or the other- not both.

In the OP's case- the tenant is paying a token 30 Euro contribution towards the rent- or rather- they are supposed to be, but have decided not to (for whatever reason). It should not be the case that the landlord has to chase the tenant for the rent- its not good for anyone- tenant or landlord.

Graces7

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You did read that the tenant only pays 30 euro per month while the state are paying 1070 rent for her. I don't begrudge her this at all but I can't see how this is unfair on her?

No; she s paying as well to the council from her social welfare payment. That is what I am talking about. They deduct that at source to avoid a tenant defaulting as they could on rent allowance.

So this E30 a month is apparently arranged between her and the landlord?

Nothing to do with HAP. social welfare etc. In addition to what is stopped from her welfare payments.

That was whY i asked if they took this extra payment into account when they calculated her contribution.

And to a single mother of 2 that can be hard to find.

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

And to a single mother of 2 that can be hard to find.

Pity about her, she is getting a 1200 euro apartment for 30 euro a month and is better off than a lot of people who are working. She should be issued notice of arrears immediately as she is behind with her rent. If she doesn't pay up she be then issued notice of eviction.

Why any LL takes on HAP or rent allowance is beyond me when you read story after story like this.

TresGats

It should not be hard to find the equivalent of one euro per day to prevent her and her children from becoming homeless.
Could she not set up a direct debit for that amount out of her 260 per month Childrens allowance?
I would go forward with notice of arrears, and nip this kind of thing in the bud.

Turtle_

Graces7 wrote: »

No; she s paying as well to the council from her social welfare payment. That is what I am talking about. They deduct that at source to avoid a tenant defaulting as they could on rent allowance.

So this E30 a month is apparently arranged between her and the landlord?

Nothing to do with HAP. social welfare etc. In addition to what is stopped from her welfare payments.

That was whY i asked if they took this extra payment into account when they calculated her contribution.

And to a single mother of 2 that can be hard to find.

Where did the OP say the tenant is paying the council and the OP? I only see her saying that the rent is 1200, of which the council pay 1170 and the tenant pays 30. Maybe the op says what you're suggesting elsewhere and I've missed it? I don't think it's fair to assume that it's deducted at source when the scheme is operated differently from council to council.

Nomis21

Deduction at source of tenant's contribution is a cornerstone of the HAP scheme.

Tenant is paying about 26 Euro rent contribution a week to her County Council taken at source from her social welfare.

If this money is not paid for any reason then the Landlord will not be paid by the Council either.

Lumen

Turtle_ wrote: »

Where did the OP say the tenant is paying the council and the OP? I only see her saying that the rent is 1200, of which the council pay 1170 and the tenant pays 30. Maybe the op says what you're suggesting elsewhere and I've missed it? I don't think it's fair to assume that it's deducted at source when the scheme is operated differently from council to council.

It's also possible that the tenant is paying both a contribution to the council (which the landlord wouldn't necessarily know about) and a top-up to the landlord (which the council wouldn't necessarily know about).

Graces7

Nomis21 wrote: »

Deduction at source of tenant's contribution is a cornerstone of the HAP scheme.

Tenant is paying about 26 Euro rent contribution a week to her County Council taken at source from her social welfare.

If this money is not paid for any reason then the Landlord will not be paid by the Council either.

Thank you. I was sure that was the case.

fowlersleftpeg

Update and context to some of the posts on the thread:
The tenant is on the HAP and I do not know if the tenant is paying a contribution at source or not. I maintained the same monthly rent from 2010 - 2016 (despite supplementing it by a further 30% to meet rising interest rates at times) and increased it in Feb 2016. I agreed with the tenant to accept HAP (she asked to go that route) when she was on RS for the previous 6 yrs and agreed on a rental amount with her also. I advised her that if the HAP wasnt meeting the amount then she could opt to top it up (€30) or stay on RS or look elsewhere and i would give her adequate time to find alternatives. She wanted to stay and said she would pay the extra.
Incidentally, the council had recommended I evict her in favour of a different housing list family as she has 2 boys and 'doesnt require a 3 bed house as the kids are the same gender'. I was unwilling to 'evict' her under that logic.
Happy to take HAP, happy to keep same family in the property, unwilling to see family possibly homeless due to silly 'council rules'.

I managed to visit the property earlier this week and spoke with the tenant who assured me she had forgotten to pay the €30 and i quote 'I know its only €30 but the principal is more important and its my mistake'. I was happy with that and she paid the arrears the following morning. Her phone had smashed in early Dec and Santa for the kids was more important than replacing it, hence i was unable to get in contact.
Maybe I am too soft....Maybe I'm gullible...maybe I just understand the difficulties some people go through.
Either way, rent is up to date and it'll likely stay that way for another x number of months. I hope

Thanks for all the posts !