My idea -would you/others use this service?

zig

Hi folks,

I've mentioned this to a few people and heard some positive responses but said I would get the opinions of a wider more objective audience (ie not friends).

Basically the idea is a service that helps people buy or sell their cars online with the help of a more experienced person, thus taking the hassle/fear out of it themselves.

Supposing Im an experienced trader who knows his stuff about buying/selling cars.

If someone wants to BUY a car they contact me:

1. I could do the whole lot for them, briefly find out what kind of car they are looking for, rough budget, engine size etc and I could do the digging online by checking all the known sites, make some calls and even arrange some viewings. I could join the buyer in the viewings and help look for anything that might be wrong with the car, or the other way around I could tell them its a very good deal. I could even help them haggle a little.

2. I could offer a lesser package of not doing all the car searching and just join them for the viewing and do the above.

We could have money agreed beforehand. Perhaps I have a flat fee + a cost for each viewing + perhaps commission if I can help get the car for cheaper than expected.

If someone wants to SELL a car they contact me:

1. I could do the whole hog, call out , take the photos, write up a description after chatting to them and put up the ads in certain places. Take the calls and then join the seller for the viewings/sales to give them a bit of a hand with dealing with haggling etc

2. Similar to the above. I could do a bit less work and simply join the seller for when they are trying to sell the car, or even just do a bit of consultancy with them in terms of what they should expect money wise for the car.

3. Like the above, the fee could be agreed before hand in different ways.


The whole idea of this would be to take the hassle out of the buyer/seller. The process would have to be simple for them.

I got this idea because at times I have felt like I wanted this service. Buying or even selling a 3/4K used car can be intimidating, and if not intimidating, just a pain in the arse because of the hassle involved.

But Im not sure would others use a service like this.

EDIT: I've elaborated on the idea more specifically here.

JamboMac

Not really, how would it be cost effective for me buying a car. If I'm buying a second hand car which the vast majority would be paying less then 10,000. If you charge 50 quid for each viewing plus whatever and could want to view 10 cars your putting 500+ on top, you would have to be a very effective negotiator to make it close being worthwhile.

chocksaway

And if the car you pick out turns out to be a lemon what happens then?

zig

JamboMac wrote: »

Not really, how would it be cost effective for me buying a car. If I'm buying a second hand car which the vast majority would be paying less then 10,000. If you charge 50 quid for each viewing plus whatever and could want to view 10 cars your putting 500+ on top, you would have to be a very effective negotiator to make it close being worthwhile.

Yep good point, this would be a problem if it turned into that. Whats the point in paying more you may as well go to a dealer instead and get a guarantee.

And if the car you pick out turns out to be a lemon what happens then?

While this would be inevitable at some stage I wouldnt let this stop the idea. It would be pretty bad luck and unless you actually take the car to a garage where they can get into the engine then this could never be guaranteed not to happen. Id like to think its far less likely to happen though if you have experience in looking at the basics at least. But even a qualified mechanic on the roadside couldnt make that guarantee.


Overall the pitch for this would be about taking the hassle out of it, either from a buying or selling perspective, and still being more cost effective than going to a dealer. Its not often people go to a dealer to sell their car and feel they got a very decent price!

PARlance

You are solving a problem but I'm not sure if it's big enough to make a viable business from it. You'll be in the cheap car market and I'm not sure the fees people would be willing to pay would be worth your time.

On the buying side: the NCT has taken a lot of worry out of it (even though it's just a basic test, most people will be sufficiently reassured by it).

PhoenixParker

I could see maybe a version of selling 1 working.

Meet someone at their workplace. Take car for valet clean, photograph, drop back car. Then you write blurb and put up ad on agreed sites. Owner takes it from there.

Not sure you could do it efficiently enough to make it profitable at an achievable price though. If you could garner enough work in a tight geographic area maybe.

Dades

What kind of experience do you have with cars?

You'll need to be able to walk the walk if you're claiming expertise.

Mrs OBumble

Ive used kind of the lesser from of the buying service overseas.

I viewed the car and then contracted the AA to do a full inspection for me.

Paid some thing like fifty euro for each assessment.

zig

Dades wrote: »

What kind of experience do you have with cars?

You'll need to be able to walk the walk if you're claiming expertise.

Well, there's a bit more to this idea than i mentioned above. (Ive added an edited note in the OP)

I didnt bring it up cause I thought it would confuse things and I was more interested in just seeing would people even use a service like that in the first place. But Ill talk a bit more about it because it may make the business a bit clearer.

To answer your question, the person providing the service would have a profile with referels, feedback and testimonials. They would be people who are very experienced in doing this and enjoy it. They could either be or not be qualifed mechanics. Off the top of my head I know several people that enjoy buying/selling cars.

Im a software/web app developer. My actual real final idea would be to build a platform to allow mechanic/trader types to have an account and have access to posts from people looking for this service, whether these people are looking to buy or sell.

They could pay the site for access to these, maybe 1 or 2 euro per ad that they get can fully see or something (i havent even thought money yet) . They would obviously make alot more from each ad than the money theyve put in.

It does add a bit more to the idea...

1. None of these guys would be doing this full time, it would be a side earner for people in their local area, thus taking the pressure/cost/time off them in terms of investment of themselves, advertising themselves or just looking for work. Perhaps a nice way of earning €80 on a Tuesday evening! That kind of thing.
2. Yes its a cheap money market but the market itself is huge in my opinion. In 2014 I believe 365000 used car transactions occured (im going by this). If you could even be working with 2 or 3% of that market that is still alot of transactions.
3. There is a level of risk alright and trust required. But I believe that hasnt stopped other services in the past. Look at Ebay, Uber, services like that require that the vast majority of people are legit and just want to do it properly.
   

Digital_Guy

zig wrote: »

Well, there's a bit more to this idea than i mentioned above. (Ive added an edited note in the OP)

I didnt bring it up cause I thought it would confuse things and I was more interested in just seeing would people even use a service like that in the first place. But Ill talk a bit more about it because it may make the business a bit clearer.

To answer your question, the person providing the service would have a profile with referels, feedback and testimonials. They would be people who are very experienced in doing this and enjoy it. They could either be or not be qualifed mechanics. Off the top of my head I know several people that enjoy buying/selling cars.

Im a software/web app developer. My actual real final idea would be to build a platform to allow mechanic/trader types to have an account and have access to posts from people looking for this service, whether these people are looking to buy or sell.

They could pay the site for access to these, maybe 1 or 2 euro per ad that they get can fully see or something (i havent even thought money yet) . They would obviously make alot more from each ad than the money theyve put in.

It does add a bit more to the idea...

1. None of these guys would be doing this full time, it would be a side earner for people in their local area, thus taking the pressure/cost/time off them in terms of investment of themselves, advertising themselves or just looking for work. Perhaps a nice way of earning €80 on a Tuesday evening! That kind of thing.
2. Yes its a cheap money market but the market itself is huge in my opinion. In 2014 I believe 365000 used car transactions occured (im going by this). If you could even be working with 2 or 3% of that market that is still alot of transactions.
3. There is a level of risk alright and trust required. But I believe that hasnt stopped other services in the past. Look at Ebay, Uber, services like that require that the vast majority of people are legit and just want to do it properly.
   

Definitely think it's one that's worth testing at least. You could simply trial it as a service before investing time and possibly money on design and development, marketing, etc. That would give you a good indication of interest in a super MVP-type way.

It's a huge market as you say and I would say there are thousands of people out there who are surely put off by or have trouble with the whole car-buying and selling process. Sure the girl who sits beside me in work only said last week that she has been trying to sell her Mini for ages to no avail - and she needs to sell it to buy a new car she wants!

She has it up on Facebook and has had all her friends share it, and so on. I am sure she would be happy to spend a small amount to have someone virtually own the process of selling it for her. In fact women probably find the process more intimidating than men, and so there could be an angle there too (even though it would obviously be applicable to everyone).

Dades

The idea could have legs. There are services like this in the UK. Might be difficult to get off the ground without some cash injection, mainly for marketing and promotion.

Are those scammers still about that call you with "buyers" for your car (which they only pass on when you subscribe to their service)? The second hand car market is rife with chancers.

ironclaw

I looked at doing this and I have the same background as you OP. Exactly this idea. I've a long history with cars, I'm not a mechanic but I'm soundly mechanically minded and I've been asked to do a number of inspections for people. Couple of stumbling blocks:

- The human cheapskate element. You generally have two buyers in the Irish car market. The person who believes that if they deal with a garage, any garage, then the car is in top notch condition. The fall down? A lot of used car dealerships work out of a portacabin and their stock is dreadful and cheap for a reason. You then have the person who just wants 'a car'. They don't care what car it is, they just want 4 wheels and to go from A to B. They also want it for as cheap as possible.

You'd be surprised how many Irish motorists fall into this category and neither of them will pay you for your services as they don't see it as necessity. I'd say 90% of people buy a second hand car purely on what the Ad tells them, the NCT sticker in the window and what the seller says. The word 'SIMI' means 'nothing could possible go wrong' to a lot of people. I'm a rarity when I bring a car to my own mechanic to be looked over before I part with cash.

Assuming you got someone to pay for your services, and that will be a very hard sell I can assure you, and have a car inspected, you need to consider:

- Your time. Assuming you worked in Dublin, it could take you 45 mins to an hour to move between jobs (Assuming you had schedule back to back, remembering most people buy a car after work so they will want to meet after office hours potentially) Its then maybe 45 mins to an hour to properly look over a car and go for a test drive (Which you will need to do and have insurance to do), and then perhaps 30 mins to 45 mins to your next job. Assuming you got that down to 1.5 to 2 hours all in per job, you're costs start to skyrocket as you need to cover the costs of maybe only having one or two jobs per day. I'd say you'd need to be charging over 100EUR to even consider doing it on time alone. This problem becomes even greater if you want to cover more of the country or if you employ agents.

- Extras: You can't just sell an inspection service, you need to value add e.g. MotorCheck, HP Check etc. People need to think: This lad will solve all my problems.

- Consistency: If you have multiple people (or garages) doing the same job, they all need to be of the same standard and working to a common sheet. I bounced the idea off a few local mechanics and they would just be too busy to look over a car on most days, perhaps one or two a day, either at the start of end or end of the working day. No good for you. Also, looking over a Toyota Corolla is very different to looking over a M3. You need expertise for every form of car and you need to know the quirks of each e.g. This engine, also present in the XYZ, has these problems at this mileage.

- Indemnity: You're going to pick a lemon at some stage, or someone will lemon a car you advised on. You'll need watertight protection and some insurance to cover the inevitable frivolous suit.

- Competition: AA and RAC (Amougst others) will do an inspection for a consumer, on a ramp, for similar money. You could partner with some garages perhaps a '3 inspections and 1 mechanic' deal if someone wasn't sure on the car they wanted, and you brought the car they decided on to a mechanic for them.

- Speed: Used cars sell fast. You need to be able to take a call and go see someone very, very quickly.

- Trust: AA and RAC have more trust that you and always will. You could have a 'Recommended by XYZ App' on the Ad and it could come to mean something, but you're brand is very precious and the money to do that will be mindboggling.

I do like your idea of taking photos for clients and publishing them. If you were handy with a valet rag and were willing to drop out to someone's place of business to do so, that could work. Then again, you face again the issues with time. If you worked around the city center, you could also work off a bike, get fit etc to cut costs, but then again, you should never photograph a car in the rain, so factor that into your thoughts especially given Irish weather.

A few years ago, we made some demo videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSesqXlYTIJvR84oAq9IXYQ for an App we developed at the time. It was a good lesson for me and the App later became something else, but the ground work was there. If you want to chat over the idea, I'd love to talk to you. Its possible, but its needs work.

James Bond Junior

http://m.m6motors.ie/car-sourcing.php

Being done here but these guys have a garage proper too.

Cianos

I disagree with the point about people not wanting to spend more money when they're not spending a lot on the car in the first place.

Just because their budget might be lower than others, it's probably still a lot of money to them.

It's not about budget and value, in my opinion it's about risk aversion - you could argue that they're more risk averse than someone who has the money to splash out on a much more expensive car. Someone who only has a budget of €1500 to spend on a car will want to get the best value they can out of their limited budget, and if it takes another €100 to make that much more likely, then it's an attractive service to avail of.

ironclaw

Cianos wrote: »

I disagree with the point about people not wanting to spend more money when they're not spending a lot on the car in the first place.

Just because their budget might be lower than others, it's probably still a lot of money to them.

It's not about budget and value, in my opinion it's about risk aversion - you could argue that they're more risk averse than someone who has the money to splash out on a much more expensive car. Someone who only has a budget of €1500 to spend on a car will want to get the best value they can out of their limited budget, and if it takes another €100 to make that much more likely, then it's an attractive service to avail of.

I've seen people drop 10k on a car in a portacabin dealership because they assume its a 'bricks and motar' place then its reputable when it was infact a Del Trotter outfit (See the million horror stories here on Boards). Likewise I've seen people buy an M3 with only the most basic of checks when a specialist is absolutely required. A quick trawl though DoneDeal will dig up the dregs of this industry to the point I don't even use it any more. Any car I've inspected for someone from Donedeal has been a lemon or very much close to it, you rarely find a diamond in the private market here in Ireland.

You also then have the critical point where people are comfortable parting with cash to a private seller with no come back. This is in my experience is generally in the 8 to 10kEUR range, maybe rising in the enthusiast market between known sellers and buyers. You certain don't have Joe Soap parting with that type of cash at the kerbside unless they know what they are doing.

All these factors limit your market for this idea. Your points are valid, but the sell on this idea to the average buyer would be immense. Most people bring their uncle or brother or sister for positive reinforcement 'Oh, it has an NCT and I've been driving for 15 years and it feels fine' so they buy it. Its a rarity for someone to bring a mechanic. Any time I've sold a car, I think a mechanic came once.

You can never underestimate the cheap nature of people when it comes to buying cars. Even if they spend 200EUR on the OPs service, their saving could be 2000EUR in repairs. Its a valuable service but would be nigh impossible to sell as most buyers are gamblers e.g. Would never happy to me mentality.

antoinolachtnai

What has been said above is basically right. I think a lot of the reason people buy cheap crappy cars is because they like gambling on buying cheap crappy cars. They also like complaining about them when they've bought them.

Lots of people don't do this by the way. They buy from a well known dealer. These are by and large sensible people and not necessarily any better off than the people who buy cheap crappy cars. They know they will pay a premium above the 'done deal' price and that the well known dealers aren't perfect either and that they are after all buying a second hand car. However, they know that it gives them a much better chance.

The question is, which customers are you trying to attract? It is hard to convert cheap-and-crappy customers into being responsible, sensible customers who pay for a service such as yours. On the other hand, it is also hard to convince sensible, conservative customers that it is a good idea for them to buy for themselves on the open market with your support. So you are stuck somewhere in the middle.

ironclaw

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The question is, which customers are you trying to attract? It is hard to convert cheap-and-crappy customers into being responsible, sensible customers who pay for a service such as yours. On the other hand, it is also hard to convince sensible, conservative customers that it is a good idea for them to buy for themselves on the open market with your support. So you are stuck somewhere in the middle.

This beautifully sums it up. How do you convince someone who wants it so cheap they'll forgo a mechanics inspection (€50 cash) to part with said cash for you to do the same? And likewise, how do you convince someone who is buying from a dealership, and assumes all business are honest, to part with more cash for you to tell them what they assume they already know?

Honestly, I think its an impossible sell.

Cianos

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What has been said above is basically right. I think a lot of the reason people buy cheap crappy cars is because they like gambling on buying cheap crappy cars. They also like complaining about them when they've bought them.

I really disagree with this. Nobody just buys a cheap car for a laugh, they do it because that's all they have to spend. There might be a subsection of people who buy cars as a hobby and like taking a gamble on something interesting, but the vast majority of people want something reliable to get them from A to B and that has a good chance of getting through the next NCT.

I think these type of people would like to have an extra level of reassurance when it comes to what to buy because it can be an absolute minefield. I'd also argue that these buyers are more risk averse because their budget means more to them. Someone with a small disposable income is going to feel it much more if they've wasted €1500 on a car and would be happy to pay €100 or whatever to make that a lot less likely.

Digital_Guy

Cianos wrote: »

I really disagree with this. Nobody just buys a cheap car for a laugh, they do it because that's all they have to spend. There might be a subsection of people who buy cars as a hobby and like taking a gamble on something interesting, but the vast majority of people want something reliable to get them from A to B and that has a good chance of getting through the next NCT.

I think these type of people would like to have an extra level of reassurance when it comes to what to buy because it can be an absolute minefield. I'd also argue that these buyers are more risk averse because their budget means more to them. Someone with a small disposable income is going to feel it much more if they've wasted €1500 on a car and would be happy to pay €100 or whatever to make that a lot less likely.

I agree. What's €50 or even €100 when you are shelling out thousands for a car? There is one thing people want when buying a used car - (re)assurance. They want to feel their money is being invested wisely, and so a solution that is geared towards this could do very well. Even through targeting a niche market such as women seeking that reassurance and older people. 95% of car buyers may never avail of your service, but the other 5% could help ensure you do quite well.

Especially as your reputation grows and word of mouth spreads that the service does a nice job for the small sum you pay. It's the kind of thing that could play out well on social media and forums such as Boards.

ironclaw

Digital_Guy wrote: »

I agree. What's €50 or even €100 when you are shelling out thousands for a car? There is one thing people want when buying a used car - (re)assurance. They want to feel their money is being invested wisely, and so a solution that is geared towards this could do very well. Even through targeting a niche market such as women seeking that reassurance and older people. 95% of car buyers may never avail of your service, but the other 5% could help ensure you do quite well.

Especially as your reputation grows and word of mouth spreads that the service does a nice job for the small sum you pay. It's the kind of thing that could play out well on social media and forums such as Boards.

I don't know what it is about the car market, but this goes out the window. Many people believe an NCT is a copperfast gaurentee of a good car. Its not. Its means the car, for 20 mins in a test center, passed a fairly easy test to pass. Nothing more. Likewise a Motorcheck, people just don't want to pay for them and very few people can really understand them.

Check out the threads here and on forums e.g. '50EUR for tyres', 'Service cost 100EUR' and the next words: 'I was ripped off'

Honestly, I'm not sure if its an Irish mentality or world wide, but the vast majority of people have absolutely no idea how a car works and certainly don't want to spend money on it. Its an even larger problem now as your 3000EUR car, might cost 700EUR to tax and another 1500EUR to insure. So whilst 100EUR seems nothing in the cost of the car, I agree, for many people its another expense they just don't see as necessary.

This idea is possible, but speaking from years in the car game, its going to be the hardest sell of your life. And one mess up, just one car that slipped by your checks, and your rep is gone.

Assuming you got it up and going, you are going to have issues of expansion. How are you going to cover Joan in the middle of no where Donegal? Or James in the city center of Cork who wants to meet at 5:30pm on Wednesday night? How do you ensure both clients get equal service and you indemnify equally?

I'd love to work with anyone who is willing to progress this idea. It can work but it needs serious money behind it and some major twists worked out.

zig

Hey Ironclaw,

Some interesting points and insights. It seems you have much more knowledge of the car buying/selling market than I have. I like the videos too btw!!

But just some observations that I'd be interested to get your thoughts on...


1. The problem to be solved that you are highlighting isnt the same as the problem Im talking about:

You are very very focused on a problem that Im not necessarily highlighting as the main problem, just a part of it. You are taking it as if the problem thats getting resolved is the security of buying a good car second hand and the issue of inspections. I agree for the most part that NCT and Dealers resolves a big part of that for the people that dont mind spending a bit more, and that the remainder of the market is too tight to spend anything more. You seem to be ALL about the inspection.

Whereas really my main focus is on the actual hassle. The idea is based on the following assumptions:

1. There is a massive market in buying/selling used cars
2. The reason this is is that the people NEED cars. Just like insurance, not because everyone loves cars.
3. Just because people need cars doesnt necessarily mean they are interested in cars. In fact the vast majority of people simply arent. They find the process annoying, frustrating, intimidating or boring. They are willing to pay that bit more for someone to own that problem.

That said everything you are saying is helpful, because it has lead me to focus on that area even moreso than before.

I personally dont enjoy buying or selling cars and I genuinely would pay for someone to deal with that issue for me when needed, even if it meant the service provider ends up at a dealers with me to buy the car. But at least I wouldnt have had to do much other than liase with the service provider by phone etc.


2. The business idea is different to what you are imagining it to be

In my second post I elaborated more on the business idea itself. Your focus seems to be on the ownership of the actual service itself, i.e. owning a business that provides this service.

Whereas Im actually not talking about owning a business that provides the service, but instead talking about owning a platform that connects people that would be willing to provide this service with people who want it.

IMO this resolves alot of your arguments about travel time/costs/extra add ons and loads of more of the business elements of it. Because in my view , the people on the site providing the service would

1. Not be doing it full time so can work on the same hours as the customer etc

2. Only taking business that suits them, i.e. not taking a 2 hour return journey just to look at a car. So I would see it that when someone posts an ad looking for help in Donegal then only people in Donegal would obviously respond with interest.

3. Again because its not full time, they have no overheads. Its a side earner for them and they dont even need to invest on marketing to sell themselves. All they need to do is build up a good reputation on the site.


I guess as a summary I would say the idea is to connect poeple with a passion for cars/buying/selling with people that arent.

I wouldnt have even limited the idea to cars but when I thought about it a bit more I figured there is nothing else really in the second hand buying/selling market that people would want this service for. I imagined electronics like TVs but really i dont feel there is a problem to be resolved there like there is with cars.

Del2005

zig wrote: »

Hey Ironclaw,

Some interesting points and insights. It seems you have much more knowledge of the car buying/selling market than I have. I like the videos too btw!!

But just some observations that I'd be interested to get your thoughts on...


1. The problem to be solved that you are highlighting isnt the same as the problem Im talking about:

You are very very focused on a problem that Im not necessarily highlighting as the main problem, just a part of it. You are taking it as if the problem thats getting resolved is the security of buying a good car second hand and the issue of inspections. I agree for the most part that NCT and Dealers resolves a big part of that for the people that dont mind spending a bit more, and that the remainder of the market is too tight to spend anything more. You seem to be ALL about the inspection.

Whereas really my main focus is on the actual hassle. The idea is based on the following assumptions:

1. There is a massive market in buying/selling used cars
2. The reason this is is that the people NEED cars. Just like insurance, not because everyone loves cars.
3. Just because people need cars doesnt necessarily mean they are interested in cars. In fact the vast majority of people simply arent. They find the process annoying, frustrating, intimidating or boring. They are willing to pay that bit more for someone to own that problem.

That said everything you are saying is helpful, because it has lead me to focus on that area even moreso than before.

I personally dont enjoy buying or selling cars and I genuinely would pay for someone to deal with that issue for me when needed, even if it meant the service provider ends up at a dealers to buy the car.


2. The business idea is different to what you are imagining it to be

In my second post I elaborated more on the business idea itself. Your focus seems to be on the ownership of the actual service itself, i.e. owning a business that provides this service.

Whereas Im actually not talking about owning a business that provides the service, but instead talking about owning a platform that connects people that would be willing to provide this service with people who want it.

IMO this resolves alot of your arguments about travel time/costs/extra add ons and loads of more of the business elements of it. Because in my view , the people on the site providing the service would

1. Not be doing it full time so can work on the same hours as the customer etc

2. Only taking business that suits them, i.e. not taking a 2 hour return journey just to look at a car. So I would see it that when someone posts an ad looking for help in Donegal then only people in Donegal would obviously respond with interest.

3. Again because its not full time, they have no overheads. Its a side earner for them and they dont even need to invest on marketing to sell themselves. All they need to do is build up a good reputation on the site.


I guess as a summary I would say the idea is to connect poeple with a passion for cars/buying/selling with people that arent.

I wouldnt have even limited the idea to cars but when I thought about it a bit more I figured there is nothing else really in the second hand buying/selling market that people would want this service for. I imagined electronics like TVs but really i dont feel there is a problem to be resolved there like there is with cars.

Are you going to provide any indemnity for the people doing the work? Because you can be sure if anything goes wrong people will sue or "Talk to Joe"

If people aren't willing to give their usual mechanic €50 to inspect a car before they buy it what makes you think that they'll pay a stranger?

The reason why the vast majority of people have trouble selling their cars is because they over value them, so you are going to charge them to tell them to drop the price.

Digital_Guy

Del2005 wrote: »

Are you going to provide any indemnity for the people doing the work? Because you can be sure if anything goes wrong people will sue or "Talk to Joe"

How would it be any different from a mechanic doing a job on a car, saying it's fine and something happening later? Plus I think people appreciate that you can't *guarantee* that something is perfect, no-one can - not even the manufacturer. You will always get a few unreasonable people I am sure, but that is the same in every industry - it doesn't make the idea a non-runner. Far from it.

Del2005 wrote: »

If people aren't willing to give their usual mechanic €50 to inspect a car before they buy it what makes you think that they'll pay a stranger?

Some people are I am sure? And these could be the same people who would be likely to be interested in availing of such a service.

Del2005 wrote: »

The reason why the vast majority of people have trouble selling their cars is because they over value them, so you are going to charge them to tell them to drop the price.

Some will but they may still sell them for the price they want. I wouldn't agree really, plus this service is for people who dislike the whole buying / selling process, not necessarily those who find it difficult per se. You can find it straightforward enough to sell a car at a reasonable price, you just might not like the process / effort involved.

zig

Del2005 wrote: »

Are you going to provide any indemnity for the people doing the work? Because you can be sure if anything goes wrong people will sue or "Talk to Joe"

No I dont think so, they are not being hired by me. This is something that could easily be covered in the Terms and Conditions. Its like asking are Done Deal going to provide indemnity for people being screwed over.

Digital_Guy

zig wrote: »

Hey Ironclaw,

Some interesting points and insights. It seems you have much more knowledge of the car buying/selling market than I have. I like the videos too btw!!

But just some observations that I'd be interested to get your thoughts on...


1. The problem to be solved that you are highlighting isnt the same as the problem Im talking about:

You are very very focused on a problem that Im not necessarily highlighting as the main problem, just a part of it. You are taking it as if the problem thats getting resolved is the security of buying a good car second hand and the issue of inspections. I agree for the most part that NCT and Dealers resolves a big part of that for the people that dont mind spending a bit more, and that the remainder of the market is too tight to spend anything more. You seem to be ALL about the inspection.

Whereas really my main focus is on the actual hassle. The idea is based on the following assumptions:

1. There is a massive market in buying/selling used cars
2. The reason this is is that the people NEED cars. Just like insurance, not because everyone loves cars.
3. Just because people need cars doesnt necessarily mean they are interested in cars. In fact the vast majority of people simply arent. They find the process annoying, frustrating, intimidating or boring. They are willing to pay that bit more for someone to own that problem.

That said everything you are saying is helpful, because it has lead me to focus on that area even moreso than before.

I personally dont enjoy buying or selling cars and I genuinely would pay for someone to deal with that issue for me when needed, even if it meant the service provider ends up at a dealers with me to buy the car. But at least I wouldnt have had to do much other than liase with the service provider by phone etc.


2. The business idea is different to what you are imagining it to be

In my second post I elaborated more on the business idea itself. Your focus seems to be on the ownership of the actual service itself, i.e. owning a business that provides this service.

Whereas Im actually not talking about owning a business that provides the service, but instead talking about owning a platform that connects people that would be willing to provide this service with people who want it.

IMO this resolves alot of your arguments about travel time/costs/extra add ons and loads of more of the business elements of it. Because in my view , the people on the site providing the service would

1. Not be doing it full time so can work on the same hours as the customer etc

2. Only taking business that suits them, i.e. not taking a 2 hour return journey just to look at a car. So I would see it that when someone posts an ad looking for help in Donegal then only people in Donegal would obviously respond with interest.

3. Again because its not full time, they have no overheads. Its a side earner for them and they dont even need to invest on marketing to sell themselves. All they need to do is build up a good reputation on the site.


I guess as a summary I would say the idea is to connect poeple with a passion for cars/buying/selling with people that arent.

I wouldnt have even limited the idea to cars but when I thought about it a bit more I figured there is nothing else really in the second hand buying/selling market that people would want this service for. I imagined electronics like TVs but really i dont feel there is a problem to be resolved there like there is with cars.

Agree, ironclaw you make some interesting points but I think you may be over-thinking it and focusing on certain aspects you strongly feel won't work (as well as missing the core proposal of the website). The idea is multi-faceted and even if one aspect wouldn't work that well then there are many other angles that could.

Fundamentally it would be about presenting a 'helper' solution to a targeted audience and building the platform to enable it. It would be up to a given mechanic / expert to decide if paying to avail of the solution makes sense for them (financially and time-wise, etc.).

Del2005

Digital_Guy wrote: »

How would it be any different from a mechanic doing a job on a car, saying it's fine and something happening later? Plus I think people appreciate that you can't *guarantee* that something is perfect, no-one can - not even the manufacturer. You will always get a few unreasonable people I am sure, but that is the same in every industry - it doesn't make the idea a non-runner. Far from it.



Some people are I am sure? And these could be the same people who would be likely to be interested in availing of such a service.



Some will but they may still sell them for the price they want. I wouldn't agree really, plus this service is for people who dislike the whole buying / selling process, not necessarily those who find it difficult per se. You can find it straightforward enough to sell a car at a reasonable price, you just might not like the process / effort involved.

The garage will have insurance, a person doing a nixer won't and I know plenty of people who have had expensive bills when the nixer they where doing went wrong. Plenty of posts on this site show that people do think that when you pay for something then you are guaranteed that it's perfect, read through consumer issues and motors.

People are still buying cars without an NCT on the promise that it'll fly through. They are not going pay for any type of inspection.

Are you expecting this person to deal with the hundreds of time wasters calling at all hours offering to swap the €5k car they are trying to shift for a iPhone?

They will also need to get a trade policy, which is hard to get, as even if they have "driving other cars 3rd party extension", it's difficult for mechanics to even get this, it won't cover the car they are driving and most likely would void the policy as they are getting paid.

ironclaw

They find the process annoying, frustrating, intimidating or boring. They are willing to pay that bit more for someone to own that problem.

You are not solving the problem though. Joe Blogs still has to go on Carzone or DoneDeal, find a car and go see it. Ok, they can employ one of your contractors to come along and have a look for them, but that person needs to be paid. Will someone pay for each and every car they go and see? Unlikely. I inspect maybe 3 or 4 cars for people until they decide on the one they want. Its very rare for someone to find and buy the first car they see, in fact I actively discourage it as it leads to impulse buying which is a receipe for disaster. You also have the issue of speed in the market place. A car on DoneDeal, keenly priced and ready to go could be up at 9am and sold by 6pm, some buyers won't be willing to risk hanging around, no matter how much you tell them that there is literally 1000 Ford Focus's of the same style and spec for sale today.

Can you flesh out how you are owning the problem for the buyer? You are adding a security blanket for sure but you are not taking away from the overall minefield.

I guess as a summary I would say the idea is to connect poeple with a passion for cars/buying/selling with people that arent.

Ok, this was actually the angle I had for the idea. Kinda like a social network for car sales. You have a few problems here:

- You can't guarantee the level or quality of service. One person is all it takes to destroy any good will you have built up. You could get a guy who thinks he knows it all about cars but literally hasn't a breeze. I'm good on Audi, VW and Toyota, but I can't for a second say I'm any good at Honda or Mercesdez. Ok, I could put this on my profile but ultimately I'm not qualified in the professional sense and I could easily lie about my proficeny.

- How do you stop Joe's brother who owns a car garage from using the service as a sales channel? They could just recommend cars from the same garages or group of garages. The car game is a 'whos who' and its cut throat, this will happen.

You could, and you should in my view, restrict this idea to car garages or verified mechanics only e.g. A garage is listed as a 'drop in' center for car inspections which a buyer can book and bring the car to. This would go a long way to leveling the quality of the service but still doesn't assure it. Not every garage is equipped to deal with every make or brand of car e.g. A simple Toyota Yaris versus the absolutely required sub frame inspection on the BMW M3 for certain years.

You do have a market here but I think you need to standardise it and own the branding of it e.g. A standard report card, a standard pricing structure and restrict to qualified individuals only. You then need to cover yourself and the mechanics. You can't assume indemnity with Terms & Conditions. For example, we operate a number of booking system websites but we are still liable for persons who use the services of our operators. You can easily insure however and you'd need to watertight this with contracts to your operators.

I'm sure independant mechanics would love a little bit of extra business and this can work, I'd just go into this with eyes wide open as the car game is not as simple as you may think.

Lastly, I second Del2005 above. They are very valid points.

Digital_Guy

ironclaw wrote: »

You are not solving the problem though. Joe Blogs still has to go on Carzone or DoneDeal, find a car and go see it. Ok, they can employ one of your contractors to come along and have a look for them, but that person needs to be paid. Will someone pay for each and every car they go and see? Unlikely. I inspect maybe 3 or 4 cars for people until they decide on the one they want. Its very rare for someone to find and buy the first car they see, in fact I actively discourage it as it leads to impulse buying which is a receipe for disaster. You also have the issue of speed in the market place. A car on DoneDeal, keenly priced and ready to go could be up at 9am and sold by 6pm, some buyers won't be willing to risk hanging around, no matter how much you tell them that there is literally 1000 Ford Focus's of the same style and spec for sale today.

Can you flesh out how you are owning the problem for the buyer? You are adding a security blanket for sure but you are not taking away from the overall minefield.



Ok, this was actually the angle I had for the idea. Kinda like a social network for car sales. You have a few problems here:

- You can't guarantee the level or quality of service. One person is all it takes to destroy any good will you have built up. You could get a guy who thinks he knows it all about cars but literally hasn't a breeze. I'm good on Audi, VW and Toyota, but I can't for a second say I'm any good at Honda or Mercesdez. Ok, I could put this on my profile but ultimately I'm not qualified in the professional sense and I could easily lie about my proficeny.

- How do you stop Joe's brother who owns a car garage from using the service as a sales channel? They could just recommend cars from the same garages or group of garages. The car game is a 'whos who' and its cut throat, this will happen.

You could, and you should in my view, restrict this idea to car garages or verified mechanics only e.g. A garage is listed as a 'drop in' center for car inspections which a buyer can book and bring the car to. This would go a long way to leveling the quality of the service but still doesn't assure it. Not every garage is equipped to deal with every make or brand of car e.g. A simple Toyota Yaris versus the absolutely required sub frame inspection on the BMW M3 for certain years.

You do have a market here but I think you need to standardise it and own the branding of it e.g. A standard report card, a standard pricing structure and restrict to qualified individuals only. You then need to cover yourself and the mechanics. You can't assume indemnity with Terms & Conditions. For example, we operate a number of booking system websites but we are still liable for persons who use the services of our operators. You can easily insure however and you'd need to watertight this with contracts to your operators.

I'm sure independant mechanics would love a little bit of extra business and this can work, I'd just go into this with eyes wide open as the car game is not as simple as you may think.

Lastly, I second Del2005 above. They are very valid points.

The drop-in booking system for garages sounds interesting, but would sellers want the bother of it? Having to go in and spend half an hour maybe, waiting for the buyer to hear from the mechanic as to whether the car is good to - when they could be out meeting other buyers who are keen to just get the deal done?

Or more to the point, also risking having the sale fall through if the mechanic points out some faults!

ironclaw

Digital_Guy wrote: »

The drop-in booking system for garages sounds interesting, but would sellers want the bother of it? Having to go in and spend half an hour maybe, waiting for the buyer to hear from the mechanic as to whether the car is good to - when they could be out meeting other buyers who are keen to just get the deal done?

Or more to the point, also risking having the sale fall through if the mechanic points out some faults!

You have a few problems here:

- Like you said, a seller can choose his buyer. You'll choose the path of least resistance. Do you want someone who's going to take up an hour of your time or someone who will give you a wad of cash outside the local Tesco's in the car park? I personally refuse to buy a car that a seller won't let me officially inspect. I work on a two stage system, I view the car and if I am happy, I get it to my mechanic as soon as possible, securing with a deposit if needed. A lot of people buy on sight.

- A dodgy car seller won't bring a car to a mechanic anyway. And likewise, there can be a militant element to some car sellers so if you cost them a sale, you could see a reprisal. Far fetched perhaps but if a garage got a name for rubbishing cars, you have may be a push back from the market.

- A garage would be clearing a time for a seller which may show up late or not show up at all e.g. Buyer is a tyrekicker or the seller gets spooked. This happens a lot. I've lost count of the times I've jumped in the car to turn up only for the seller to pull out. You need to cover this in your terms and conditions, likewise if its not the fault of the buyer e.g the seller doesn't show up. Even though their contract is with you, they'll try get their money back from you as they didn't get the benefit of their service.

I'll also close on another point: price. My mechanic works in the tow industry with the insurance companies on a call out basis. This can be worth up to 250EUR for some call outs, plus the possible benefit of repair work as a follow on. So you have to ask yourself, what mechanic would want to look at a car for 50 to 100EUR, when they could get a call out for 250EUR or more? Or likewise, just take another car into their shop and work on it for another hour in the evening? You'll have a hard time convincing a mechanic in such circumstances to forego their other work as the opportunity cost to them is enormous. Now, you could argue they can pick and choose jobs as they wish e.g. You set up a 'tender' system where a buyer signals they need a check up and the mechanics 'bid' on the business, but it wouldn't surprise me if a tow or similar came in to the shop they'd drop your client in favour of the great money.

Things to consider I feel.

zig

You've raised some good points Ironclaw that has put a bit of a sting in alright.

I felt they were owning the problem by being the guys who do the Donedeal/Carzone/Even Dealer sites browsing on your behalf. So the person could just receive a few recommendations based on their basic requirements like (family car, 1.4, NCTd) etc, like a consultant per say.

But now on reflection I dont even know if THAT is even that viable. Its not much different to a wanted section on donedeal or adverts.ie

I had also thought about collusion between the service provider and garages etc alright. I had hoped this is where reputation/testimonials would come into it.

Hmmmm, Im starting to think perhaps only the selling side is viable or worth looking at (if even).

Regarding standardizing/owning the brand etc, my issue there is that its a little too far from my field and passion/interest to actually create and oversee a service for it myself and fully own and resolve the problem.

Thanks for your input, for now Im going to have more of a think about the selling side and look at the potential there. Its FARRRR more straight forward and defined.