Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

KrisW1001

I agree. I only favour the "turn left" option promoted by Cork City Council that would bring the line across the North Channel and link directly with Kent Station.

The "simple" option is a minor cost-saving that would dramatically reduce the ridership of both the light rail line and the Cork commuter rail service.

Markcheese

To be honest , kent IS the important part of the city side ,docklands is a nice extra ,

It makes midleton, cobh and mallow routes work better ,

KrisW1001

Docklands is the future of Cork City. Go have a walk around there sometime and see just how much empty space there is there.. I only hope the city holds its nerve and insists on proper long-term habitable apartments being built.

... but then, we are dealing with the organisation that granted planning to the Elysian without requiring rubbish chutes (yep, "modern city living" means bringing your dripping bin bags down 17 floors in the lift..)

Corkladddd!!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191300#Comment_122191300

Apartments designed by those who've never lived in apartments!

I'll continue to beat this drum but all apartment complexes need the following items in my view. Dedicated Storage Space (Bikes etc.), Integrated Waste Facilities, A common room for booking (social space) and a pick-up/drop off space for taxis and for moving!

Back on topic, I do think the docklands is necessary on the route and I'm not convinced that it only needs to be the current city side either, I think it needs to travel CPR or Monahan Road as I genuinely believe that we need to use the Luas to unlock the Stadium/Marina Park etc. as social spaces.

hans aus dtschl

Theoretically you could start by putting the tram down the docklands before anywhere else was completed, and expanding in either direction from there. It would be an inefficient way to run the project obviously but just saying it would be possible to unlock sustainable development in the docklands before anywhere else.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192606#Comment_122192606

But who would use it?

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193332#Comment_122193332

People living or working in the new developments, wanting to connect to or from Kent. I know it's only a short stretch, but the convenience (and you'd hope integrated ticketing) would make it desirable. Again, an obviously inefficient way to develop the network

namloc1980

Any light rail line that doesn't incorporate Kent would be a dreadful move.

cgcsb

There should really be a 3 line system, ballincollig to mahon via south docks, a Wilton to Kent line and a Douglas to Blackpool line with an airport branch. You can't serve everything with one line.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193559#Comment_122193559

I wouldn't see many people in the docklands area being that interested in heading to Kent. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying no one would be heading to Kent, but the vast majority would be heading to the City and onto UCC, etc.

The attraction of a connection to Kent would be more for commuters arriving into Kent to continue into the City Center, out to UCC, etc and vice versa.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193845#Comment_122193845

I beg to differ, Little Island is a big employment centre, and the docklands is expected to be something of an employment centre too!

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191300#Comment_122191300

I know this is off topic but rubbish chutes are not used anymore. They are a major risk in terms of spreading fire and people will throw anything down them and if there isn't a bin underneath, you can be left with an awful mess. People bring their rubbish bags down in the lift, that's how its done everywhere.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193828#Comment_122193828

A drawing from People Before Profit from a few years back with 3 lines!

https://pbpcork.org/cork-campaigns/light-rail/

KrisW1001

I stayed in a new-built high rise in Mebourne that had them, and Elysian is over a decade old now.. it was very much international practice when it was planned. There were other issues with Elysian: they basically took a midrise building and wedged another ten floors in it without considering the extra lift capacity that creates. Cork City really dropped the ball when they approved this one, and it will become a problem as it ages. The goal was "make the highest building in Ireland" and to hell with everything else…

Nothing built in Docklands should be over six stories, and as @Corkladddd!! says they need to look at how European cities do this and copy those proven patterns: that means secure lockable storage separate from your apartment, lots of closet-space inside, flexible multi-purpose rooms and high ceilings, plus mixed use ground floors and proper noise isolation. The vast majority of the 2-3 bed apartment stock in Cork is awful… basically student flatshares designed for buying to let. These aren't places to live in; they're for young adults to sleep in for a few nights in between weekend trips back home to mammy.

And that's the problem: for too long, the people making decisions about this thought that weekday accommodation is all apartments are for.

To get back on topic, there's no point in putting light rail stops into a residential neighbourhood unless people live close to them, and the very high rise "landmark" buildings that get put in redevelopments in this country (and others) work against that goal. They actually have density that's no better than filling the plot with midrise blocks, but midrise is much cheaper, more habitable and increases catchment for public transport stops (They don't have to be set so far back from the street, there are more street entrances per dwelling, lift journeys are quicker, etc. ).

OisinCooke

I agree with some points made about it being a shame to not extend south to Rochestown and Carrigaline but I think that that can be done as an extension once the ‘phase 1’ part is done.

Secondly, all trams serving Kent Station is a must and it would be huge foresight to not integrate suburban rail and tram. Just think how much more it will unlock the city if done.

I’m also presuming that once the tram takes over the greenway to Mahon, there will no longer be a greenway there…? I heard plans of a single line with passing loops at the stations for over 1 and a half kilometres between the Blackrock Rd and Mahon. That does not strike me in any way as a successful way to operate a high frequency suburban rail line. The corridor is well wide enough to fit both lines if the sloped embankments are turned into vertical retaining walls (similar to the Green Line Broadstone to Cabra) but I think there’s no sense in keeping the so called ‘greenway’ (more of a segregated cycle path at that stage) alongside the tram. The tram shouldn’t be compromised by a glorified cycle path…

Finally a second north-south line would be brilliant for the city too with a connection to the airport being a must. Similar to the route proposed earlier in this thread. If a third line is also built later on to ‘fill in the gaps’ of places not served by a tram I think that we have the chance now to design this well, even with all 3 lines linking in the one place. It would truly be a transport system to envy that of the ‘supposed’ capital…!

riddlinrussell

I would point out that by the time Cork gets a third tram line, it's very likely that Dublin would be on its 7th or 8th, and it's second metro at least, given how public transit forward successive governments would need to be for that to happen.

I'd say not all trams 'need' to serve Kent, especially if it is challenging location to do through running trams at. But having it as a spur terminal nearby to a multi tram interchange would be pretty good as long as it got the priority service pattern on its line, I'd envisage something similar to the red lines service to Connolly.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197444#Comment_122197444

Given the topography and the demographics, I think any North-South line needs to go from Carrigaline to the city centre via Douglas. You could possibly extend it to Ringaskiddy and Blackpool. Hollyhill and the airport would probably require tunnelling so will never happen excluding a demographic explosion and a total change in attitude to public transport.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197733#Comment_122197733

Yes my apologies I wasn’t suggesting that all lines should but that on the currently suggested line, all services should stop there, rather than only ones in certain directions. It is an important thing to link suburban rail and tram with this project so the effort should be made so that this happens.

Otherwise though yes, if it became a situation where all the lines linked in the one (not necessarily central) location then everywhere (including Kent) would only be one change away from everywhere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197808#Comment_122197808

Interesting point actually yes that could work too. Either way they are two large population centres that are in prime location for an extension of the first line or service by a separate line.

I don’t feel the airport would need any daft tunnelling though, at the very most a bridge over the N40 around Ballyphenane or the Tramore Valley Park would be enough and then a northern, off-road approach to the airport would mean that only 2 parking spaces may have to be shaved off the edge of the Holiday Blue car park to gain access to the terminal, and there is loads of green space in front of the terminal to build a stop.

Heartbreak Hank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188797#Comment_122188797

Would be cool if they used the Alfred St. short cut as part of this

https://oldphotosofcork.wordpress.com/2014/01/17/cork-city-railway-1975/geograph-3169203-by-theturfburner/

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9010887,-8.4649599,71m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

DylanQuestion

I'm currently on the train home from Dublin so I decided to get out the colouring pencils. I think the routes should be:

ROUTE 1 (Ballincollig - City Centre - Rochestown)

Ovens (Dell) - Ballincollig (Westfield) - Ballincollig (Shopping Centre/Primary Care) - Model Farm Road (Guide Dogs) - MTU (via new road) - CUH (via Bishopstown GAA) - Wilton Road (Dennehy's Cross) - College Road (UCC West, Brookfield) - College Road (UCC East, Boole) - Lancaster Quay (contraflow via Donovan's Road) - Washington Street (Courthouse) - Daunt's Square) - Patrick Street (Academy Street) - MacCurtain Street (Everyman Palace) - Alfred Street (AirCoach stop) - Railway Street (Kent Station) - Victoria Road (via new bridge over to Custom House Quay) - Centre Park Road (Marina Commercial Park) - Centre Park Road (Marquee Road junction) - The Marina (Pairc Ui Chaoimh) - Passage West Railway Greenway (Altantic Pond) - Greenway (Eden, Blackrock) - Greenway (Skehard Road) - Greenway (Mater Private Hospital) - Mahon Link Road (Mahon Point) - Jacob's Island - Rochestown Road (Monastery Road junction, terminus)

ROUTE 2 (Blackpool - City Centre)

Blackpool Train Station - N20 (Watercourse Road junction) - N20 (Carrol's Quay) - Lavitt's Quay - Patrick Street (Statue, terminus, tie in with Route 1)

ROUTE 3 (Airport - Douglas - City Centre)

Airport (Terminal) - Airport (Business Park) - Airport Road (Bull McCabe's) - Ballycureen Road - Grange Road - West Douglas Street (Douglas Village West) - West Douglas Street (Church Street junction, Douglas Village East) - South Douglas Road (Trabeg) - South Douglas Road (Capwell Road) - Capwell Road (St Finbarr's Hospital) - Southern Road - Infirmary Road (Cork College of FET, South Infimrary Hospital) - Angelsea Street (contraflow, City Hall) - Parnell Place (Bus Station, terminus, tie in with Route 1 via Mary Elmes Bridge)

ROUTE 4 (Passage West - Douglas)

Passage West (Cross River Ferry) - Passage West (Town Centre) - Cork Road (Pembroke) - Rochestown Road (Hop Island) - Rochestown Road (tie in with Route 1) - Rochestown Road (Rochestown Church) - Rochestown Park Hotel (via Church, tunnel under N28, grass area) - Douglas Court Shopping Centre (terminus)

ROUTE 5 (Carrigaline - Douglas)

Carrigaline - R609 (previously N28) - Maryborough Hill (Broadale) - Maryborough Hill (Hotel) - Douglas (Fingerpost Roundabout) - Douglas Court Shopping Centre (via Douglas Relief Road, terminus)

This would be extremely expensive, but I think it covers all areas of the city that need covering, as well as towns outside like Carrigaline and Passage. My aim was to have multiple routes that interconnect rather than one route that does it all. My rationale:

Route 1: It's all self explanatory until Model Farm Road (the Ballincollig Main Street/R608 is pretty wide so should be able to fit it with the removal of parking (THE HORROR!) and some road space). Model Farm Road is very windy, I think they'd be better off going through the greenbelt. This also removes the need to try get into and back out of MTU and back onto Model Farm Road. It can go straight into the campus, then through Bishopstown GAA (either via tunnel or CPO) to CUH. I think getting through Victoria Cross Road will be difficult due to the limited width of the bridge at its junction with Western Road. Therefore, I propose it goes onto College Road via Magazine Road. College Road would either be made Luas only, or else there will be Luas gates/priority lights. When it gets to Donovan's Road (Luas only), it would go down to Lancester Quay. This would require making part of College Road and some connecting streets cul-de-sacs, but I imagine there isn't much through traffic on the side streets. Moving the cycle lane to Dyke Parade/Sheare's Street allows for the Luas to run contraflow down Lancaster Quay, and use the bus lane to get back. Then it would replace the cycle lanes on Washington Street, which would move to Liberty Street/Castle Street. Turning at Finn's Corner is.. difficult, but let's pretend it's easy. Then it would follow the same route as discussed here (outbound MacCurtain Street, inbound Patrick's Quay), and I would bite the bullet and make Patrick's Bridge Luas only. Down MacCurtain Street, onto the bus lane part of Lower Glanmire Road, down Alfred Street and stop there for Kent. Rather than keep going down Alfed Street curved part and onto the quay, go right and down Railway Street (Luas only), then bridge across the Lee there. I think going to Victoria Road to get to Centre Park Road (both wide) is significantly easier than going over to Furlong Street given the amount of sites that separate Furlong Street and Centre Park Road. I would bite yet another bullet and make Centre Park Road Luas only. Then it will mostly follow the Greenway to Blackrock (getting from Centre Park Road to Blacrock is impossible any other way, unless they find a way to get onto Churchyard Lane). They might also use the greenway outbound and then Skehard Road and Boreenmana Road inbound. I would remove the greenway entirely, as greenway users can instead go down to Blackrock, Castle Road and onto the Loughmahon Walkway around Jacob's Island, and then over to Harty's Quay). I would then just bridge over from Jacob's Island to Rochestown Road, as I think it's a huge missed opportunity not to when you're that close.

Route 2: Given the width of the N20, I imagine this would be easy enough. Christy Ring Bridge is wide too, so the turn onto Lavitt's Quay should be easy. I think that Camden Place should be made two way to allow for cars coming from the west to go east, while also allowing for Lavitt's Quay between Emmett Place and Patrick Street to be made Luas only. This allows for a connection with Route 1. They could also continue down Merchant's Quay and connect to Route 3 if they wanted, depending on how they want to redevelop the bus station (maybe buy the warehouses behind that were supposed to be a hotel?)

Route 3: Airport Road is wide so this is easy. Ballycurren Road is relatively wide and is likely a future urban city expansion area. The junction with Grange Road is wide, and Grange Road is very wide for the most part. West Douglas Street being made Luas only would be difficult, but again, bullets need to be bit. South Douglas Road is quieter and wider than Douglas Road, and Capwell Road is a quiet street so Luases could share with cars, and would be easier than Evergreen Road which is a nightmare when it comes to cars. The previous Covid-19 testing area could be used as a stop for St Finbarr's Hospital. Southern Road would be a difficult one, but let's assume they figure it out like Finn's Corner. Infirmary Road is very wide, as is Angelsea Street and Parnell Place. This allows a connection the Bus Station, and Mary Elmes Bridge and Harley Street can be used to link to Route 1.

Route 4: R610 is wide for the most part, so an easy win. And the cross river ferry connects the South East City to the Cobh train line. Rochestown Road is wide so easy until you get to Rochestown Hotel, where it narrows significantly. I'd get rid of this headache by using the green area between the N40 and Rochestown Road to get to the hotel and then onto the shopping centre, where it can terminate (quick walk to Route 3).

Route 5: The detrunked N28, likely to be R609, allows for a Luas to rumble its way through the hills connecting Carrigaline to the urban city where it starts at Maryborough. Maryborough Hill is mostly wide, and the Fingerpost is being ripped out for Bus Connects. Douglas Relief Road is wide, and allows for a connection to Route 4 and Route 3 (and onto the city centre).

Whoo, my fingers are tired from typing all of that. Sorry for any typos, I'm not proof reading that!

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122294476#Comment_122294476

Very South side orientated no?

DylanQuestion

The northside is very hilly and has much more narrow roads. The North Ring and N20 are really the only viable roads I can think of that could fit light rail at a gradient that is okay (and I'm not even sure if the section of the North Ring by Silversprings would be too steep). The northside will also have heavy rail at Blarney (Park & Ride) and Blackpool train stations. Also, if you look at a map of the city's urban are, the northside is a lot smaller than the southside. The population of the two northside local electoral areas (a huge area, half rural) is 71k, while the southside's three local electoral areas' population is 115k, of a smaller and mostly urban area

I should add, I'd love to see an underground station added to the tunnel for a commuter rail stop at the Barracks, and I'd have a spur on the eastern rail line to go north at Dunkettle to Glanmire, with a park and ride.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295167#Comment_122295167

I like both the barracks and Glanmire ideas. Massive money obviously, but it's nice to dream. The problem with the barracks is the extreme cost. The problem with Glanmire is the fact that most of the housing and density is now in Riverstown unfortunately.

On your "Route 2" I disagree. Bus connects won't really use the N20 corridor because it's not populated enough, and the tram would suffer a similar fate. I'd prefer to beef up the links into Kilbarry station and do a big Northside Coach/Train/Bus transfer station there. A proper northside transport hub. Like a Paris-Style arrangement, where once you hit that station you are "in the city" properly. Shuttle bus from the West of the station should go through the centre of the industrial estates on the Old Mallow Road. Another should go directly to the one on Harbour View Road. Let integrated ticketing do the rest. Needs more platforms for the IC rail in Kilbarry though.

spacetweek

I like your Glanmire spur idea. Short and easy (except the N8 crossing), and serves Glanmire and Glyntown. Service frequency wouldn’t need to be too high as it’s a one-stop extension.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295167#Comment_122295167

Out of interest, how would they go about, or would it even be possible to retrofit a Barracks station to the tunnel…? Same with a Dublin Zoo station in the Phoenix Park Tunnel, is that something that would even be doable or has been done before elsewhere??

TheSunIsShining

The P&R seem like an incredibly obvious short-term win. But it's been years and years since they were first announced - as I recall there was to be one on the Ballincollig side of the city, Northside and the rail linked one in Dunkettle. But only Blackash was ever delivered. Personally I'd prioritise them as they can be delivered, put a token charge of say a euro or 2 euro on them - and get them going. I'd make them cheaper than the cost of parking for an hour in town as right now, if I just need to slip in somewhere for 20 mins, it's cheaper (ignoring opportunity and fuel costs) to look for a space in town rather than Blackash.

EnzoScifo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297759#Comment_122297759

You'd have to mine out the platforms, access tunnels and entrances for the station which would cost a bomb compared to the population density around St. Lukes/Old Youghal Road.

It is possible though. They are mining a station for the new Montreal REM from the existing rail tunnel at Édouard-Montpetit station. Although it will connect to a shallower existing metro station for ground level access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89douard-Montpetit_station#R%C3%A9seau_express_m%C3%A9tropolitain_station

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122294476#Comment_122294476

Why not have route 3, 4 and 5 link up somewhere around Douglas Village Shopping Center? I know its not a long walk but would make the whole thing more viable.

DylanQuestion

I’m not sure how they’d get there to be honest, given the disaster of the surrounding junctions

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122310859#Comment_122310859

Or even make Routes 4/5 one route, Passage West-Douglas-Carrigaline