Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

namloc1980

Local councillors really are useless aren't they. They think it's just a case of crayons on maps to design a preferred route.

I can see the Luas getting the same negative treatment that BusConnects is getting from these councillors.

Frostybrew

This is going to be a tough one to route between the city centre and Mahon Point. The Bishopstown area also poses challenges. Easiest route would be to follow the old railway line where the current greenway is presently. Docklands aside, this route avoids many of the residential areas in this area of the city; possibly too many for it to be effective.

More on street running may be necessary, possibly using parts of Boreenmanna Rd., Beaumont Quarry, Beaumont Drive, Church R., Skehard rd, Ringmahon Rd., then looping down to Mahon Point and returning on the R852. This would mean much repurposing of road space, but less disruption to existing buildings. The big advantage is it brings a much larger population access to the system. Getting from Boreenmanna Rd. to the docklands is going to be tricky though. It could be possible to cut through SMA lands to Blackrock Rd. and onto the docklands from there. This would require some demolition of buildings, which in the greater scheme of things is relatively minor, but would inevitably lead to uproar.

It's going to be far far more disruptive than anything Bus Connects has thrown up to date. Can easily see the motor industry/I don't want to lose half my front garden lobby declaring war on planners and city council. I can understand why it's cost 1.37m to date.

Chris_5339762

Forget about a Luas or Light Rail to Midleton.

As well as the current Cork Luas plans, lets have a second one to Carrigaline. That'd be a game changer.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119825569#Comment_119825569

We'll be doing very very well if we end up getting one line by 2040. Carrigaline for a rail line is a non-runner for at least 50 years.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827768#Comment_119827768

You may be right but it’s ridiculous. Carrigaline will be the biggest town in Ireland without a rail line at the next census. A North-South line (Carrigaline-Airport-Douglas-Blackpool-Apple) should have been proposed with the East-West one.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845076#Comment_119845076

Navan, Swords and Letterkenny would claim that title before carrigaline

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845257#Comment_119845257

Navan and Swords both have rail planned. Carrigaline will almost certainly overtake Letterkenny by the next census.

cgcsb

Having rail planned in this country is fairly worthless. The last 3 GDA transport strategies have been the same but worded differently because none of it has been built.

Heartbreak Hank

Anyone have any update on when the preferred route is to be announced?

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120215191#Comment_120215191

There was an article in the Echo before Christmas where the NTA were quoted as saying it would be early Q2, so April at the earliest.

whisky_galore

Any stop at the Event Centre?

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218632#Comment_120218632

Any go on at the event centre ?

Peregrine

Public consultation next month

marno21

High time.

Shall we commence predictions on where we reckon the heaviest objections will come from?

I suspect the area around CUH and the Docklands-Blackrock sections will prove particularly contentious.

IMO having this on your doorstep will actually increase property values which may reduce objections.

cgcsb

Hope it can move swiftly. So many transport projects are in limbo

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678769#Comment_120678769

The problem with the likelyhood of it going down the old railway line is that it will be on nobody's doorstep making access much more difficult. We won't get people out of cars unless it rivals them in convenience.

Hopefully we get a more creative design than what the artists impressions so far show.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678800#Comment_120678800

The issue there is there's very little routes from the Docklands to Skehard Road that run through any areas of any significant density, and if you ran it straight to Boreenmanna Road you'd miss the eastern section of Docklands.

IMO Docklands-Skehard Road is just a section that'll be underused in order to cater for significantly higher volumes of passengers at Mahon and Jacobs Island (along with a few coming from Rochestown via the Greenway no doubt).

TheChizler

Possibly, you'd have to bring it down through Blackrock to pick up the population and the scale of resistance to that would admittedly be huge. We'll see. I just hope there's some evidence of thought put in to it rather than picking the easy route.

EnzoScifo

Wilton road landlords homeowners, will kick up a stink about possibly losing their car parks front gardens again no doubt.

Heartbreak Hank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678825#Comment_120678825

The montage on the NTA's alignment map looks to me to show two tracks merging into one along the greenway - that would hardly be a runner would it?

Although I doubt they are planning to scrap the greenway either - some of it just opened.

LRT-Alignment-Map-P75.pdf (nationaltransport.ie)

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681853#Comment_120681853

In theory, a short stretch of single track either under the bridges along there or along that section would be feasible as it's quite a short stretch.

The alignment map shows the light rail alignment diverging from the greenway routing at Skehard Road and advancing to Mahon Point east of the Mahon Link Road, well away from the greenway (I know it's indicative so it'll be subject to change but the greenway is a lot lower than the Mahon Link Road so it'd be a significant challenge to route along the greenway south of Skehard Road).

Mefistofelino

I wouldn't pay a huge amount of attention to the routing shown on that map. It also shows it ploughing through several of the office blocks in Mahon as well as the Mater.

IIRC, there had been discussion previously about how the section from Atlantic Pond down to Mahon was going to be single track, with passing loops due to the available width and the requirement to maintain the greenway along that section. There are also other issues along that section to further complicate matters. IF the line is to follow the original rail route across Skehard Road, there is insufficient headroom to allow for that at present. However excavating may not be an option because the two large pumped headers for the Cork Main Drainage system are buried under the former rail bed as they run from the Atlantic Pond pumping station to the the header tank at Mahon (though I'm not sure at what point they veer off to the tank) so it looks like the entire road junction would have to be elevated.

Given that the greenway already functions for active travel with people commuting to the area by foot / bike / e-scooter, it seems odd to be inconveniencing those who have made some commitment to avoiding car use by turning that route into a construction site, followed by shared use with the rail system. Perhaps the rail should be using street space in the area? Inconvenience those who would still chose to drive

In the end, I wouldn't be too excited by this. Given that it involves transportation for the public, Terry Shannon and his ilk will block this at every turn.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680911#Comment_120680911

Yup ..

It may stand more chance of getting over the line in a joined up scheme though.. and there were plenty of homeowners who were objecting..

landlords who'd have been payed handsome compo, plus the added benefit of a light rail upping values would be less likely to complain ,

Also if it's an TII project its less likely to be torpedoed by councilors ..

its also possible that a poor bus lane would have been an excuse to increase car space and capacity , so that when an actual light rail ,or brt or decent bus route was to be proposed that planners would have to go back to the well and take another chunk of front garden..

cantalach

If the opposition to the Bus Connects project is any kind of clue as to how light rail routes will be received, this project is doomed. The attitude of the local councillors is frightening. One of the Labour councillors sent around an update a couple of weeks ago in which, amongst other things, he explained his opposition to the bus gates on the Douglas Road. Apparently, the bus gates would make it harder for parents to drive their kids to school. Try putting them on the bus maybe? Sorry if this appears to be off-topic but I think it is relevant because it illustrates the level of self-centredness and plain idiocy that pervades society.

cgcsb

Local councillors will likely be side lined for a TII project anyway

gooseman12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682328#Comment_120682328

I thought the same with busconnects and tii but given the level of watering down of the design on round 2 over there I really don't have much confidence the light rail will be any different

SierraTango

A few of the Bus Connects NIMBYs mention forgoing the bus routes and building the light rail... They do know its probably going to be a very similar route? Can't wait to read the batshit objections in the submissions.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689499#Comment_120689499

Exactly. And the level of disruption building on-street light rail is much greater than bus corridors due to the "utility diversion" phase of construction which is essentially absent when all you're putting down is tarmac.

cgcsb

Wish there was a preview of the route available. Will be fun to see how it's planned to navigate some of the bends and what potential there is for a future north-south line or additional spurs

Heartbreak Hank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689499#Comment_120689499

Yeah was thinking this too. I would say they will go with full underground metro at that point.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678784#Comment_120678784

Politicians and economic bureaucrats waiting for the economy to crash so they can cancel them all again. Same ol, same ol.

niloc1951

I've beat this drum before but having experienced traveling on Trambusses in Europe which are 'Efficient as a tram, flexible as a bus'. I still think they are the answer for a city the size of Cork. Providing the infrastructure to support Trambus routes would entail just a small fraction of the disruption and cost associated with that required for light rail.

Trambusses travel on open roads and dedicated lanes either through green spaces or on the roadside, they can be operated via multiple power sources such as overhead lines and/or battery or onboard CNG-powered generators.

Click https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-articles/23541/efficient-tram-flexible-bus/ for more information.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244460#Comment_119244460

That's a pretty low bar...

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791114#Comment_120791114

If there is any scope to water down a transport scheme it will be viscously exploited in the consultation process, as we have seen with busconnects in Cork. The same would happen with a trambus where dedicated lanes would be cut and shortened all over the shop to appease ferociously motivated anti change residents groups.

The best thing about a tram is that it’s all or nothing. No bus gates, no dedicated lanes between certain hours, no merging with traffic for just a few hundred metres, you either build it or you don’t.

Trams are used all over Europe in cities of a similar size or smaller than Cork, some examples include; Nancy, Tours, Brest, Castillion, Granada, Cadiz, Charleroi, Odense, Aarhus, Trondheim, Bergen, Lund, Norrköping, Lausanne, Tampere, Heidelberg, Linz and Innsbruck.

We have the plans, why not just proceeded and get it done? If we want to use a trolley bus we could try it on a North South line.

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791198#Comment_120791198

Most, if not all, of the cities listed, have legacy tram networks built in the late 19th. or early 20th. century. However, unlike ours, they were developed and extended to meet growing needs and changing technologies, not ripped up.

The disruption caused by re-installing the rails and other infrastructure in current times should not be underestimated.

Finally, Trambus corridors can be separated, if need be, from other traffic just like trams on rails. After all, a trambus is basically a tram on pneumatic tyres instead of steel wheels on rails.

namloc1980

A trambus would be killed immediately in Cork by local residents and councillors. We can see BusConnects being watered down massively as we speak. Light rail is the way to go on a dedicated corridor.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791499#Comment_120791499

Of the 18 networks I mentioned, 5 match your description; Norrkoping, Heidelberg, Linz, Innsbrook and Trondenheim. Lausanne has one line M2, that matches your description but another M1, that was built from scratch. Not sure if you can really count that one way or the other. Charleroi started building their system in 1976 from scratch. It’s technically the 20th century but the trams developed were modern.

The other 11 definitely do not match your description. The 3 French ones used some of what was left of land once used for rail (as the Cork one will) but all had been closed for at least 50 years when the current ones opened. The 3 Spanish, 2 Danish, Bergen, Lund and Tampere networks were all built completely from scratch.

namloc1980

Not sure why we have to constantly compare Cork to other cities.

The east west corridor for the Cork Luas has massive trip generators along the length of it: Ballincollig, MTU, CUH, UCC, city centre, Kent, Docklands, Pairc Uí Chaoimh, City gate, Mahon Point. Just get it built!

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120792334#Comment_120792334

Can I add, the money's also available. It would be a good investment.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791137#Comment_120791137

Dublin has one of the highest capacity tram systems in the world

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799000#Comment_120799000

Mainly because they are using trams along corridors that really should have significantly higher capacity.

bk

TramBuses are largely dead as a transport idea with the rise of EV battery buses. Other than cities that already have a tram bus network, no one is planning to build any new ones and even some of the cities with them are starting to replace them with EV buses.

EV buses can basically run off the same zero emission electricity as a TramBus, but without the cost of the overhead wires and obviously have greater flexibility on where they can go.

EV busses are starting to arrive in Ireland now and Cork will follow shortly.

The choice will be EV bus -> Tram/Luas -> Metro

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799898#Comment_120799898

Trambuses are available with three green drive platforms: battery-electric, hydrogen fuel cell, and trolly

A trolly/battery-electric combination option facilitates running and the charging of the batteries in suburban areas (where the installation of overhead wires is relatively inexpensive and less disruptive) and removes the need for that infrastructure in urban areas, the tram network in Saville utilises that option.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799000#Comment_120799000

It has the second longest trams. Crawling for km through the city centre. Undercapacity...

Ballincollig Blow In

Surprise, surprise.

It’s been delayed. Again. For the umpteenth time.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41177068.html

marno21

A spokesperson for the National Transport Authority confirmed additional work was required on the city centre section of the route following discussions with Cork City Council.

**** hell what have they been at for the last 3 years at all.

cgcsb

Translation Cork Council has demanded more cars

namloc1980

Is anyone actually surprised? The delays to critical transport infrastructure in Ireland is an absolute outrage and it happens again and again and again.

Pete_Cavan

Why should it be delayed for Cork City Council? They should be told to give their opinions during the consultation period, like everyone else, and any valid concerns will be addressed during the next stage of design development.

Also, central government should be telling all local authorities and state agencies that if they aren't going to work constructively with these projects, other exchequer funding to them will be looked at differently. You can’t expect the government to hand over money for your projects while you create problems for other agencies projects.

namloc1980

Stench of political interference off this.