Planning ahead for new house - where to start?

FrankGrimes

We have just submitted planning permission and hope to be building a new house in roughly 9-12 months. I've always been a keen tech enthusiast but last few years with kids arriving have not been keeping up to date as much. I intend to put a lot of smart technology into the new house and I'd like to start the initial researching now, bought to get ahead of it and to keep an eye out for bargains in the interim.

I installed a CAT5 network in my house 10 years ago when renovating and it has been a great utility to have reliable high bandwidth around the house. I want to have a CAT6 network, need to learn how many locations to run it to (e.g. all sockets, switches, or rely on wireless for smart devices, network mainly for media).

In the past, home automation (other than X10) was largely for commercial installers, downside was cost, but upside was integration (e.g. sensors went into sockets/lights rather than retrofit add-ons). Nowadays seems more consumer-side focused and upside is cost is generally lower, but it seems more for retrofitting - e.g. smart sockets tend to plug in to existing sockets so are bulkier. Am I overlooking consumer options that can be easily integrated?

Obvious things I'd like to have will be media distribution around the house, wireless music (currently have Sonos and love it), lighting (experimenting with some Hue lights), sockets, switches, thermostats/central heating, video doorbell, voice control etc. Not sure I'll go with automated blinds/curtains, but would like to learn about options.

One thing I'd hope is available but I'm not familiar with, is a home security system that can integrate with your smart devices and be cloud-enabled. Having a motion sensor in a room that could be set to turn lights on when you're in Home mode, but could trigger the alarm when you're in Away mode, would be brilliant. Having ability to access, set alarm, review camera activity remotely would be great. Likewise, smoke and carbon monoxide alarms connected to smart cloud-system would be great. For smart devices like fridges, I'm guessing it's just a case of running an ethernet cable and/or relying on wireless. But I'm very interested in learning about what the relevant systems out there I should start researching are, and in particular if there's any advantage these days to building this stuff in when building the house as opposed to retrofitting.

Probably only scratching the surface of possibilities there, so I'm all ears for any ideas or suggestions for things to start considering. Are there any good blogs out there that keep updated guides on what the current options are for the various devices/use cases? I used to browse the relevant forums on boards and AV Forums but while they've a wealth of information, it can be a time consuming way to learn what the current options are, so any pointers or links to good places to start are much appreciated...have always wanted to get a house kitted out with lots of technology so hopefully the planning gods will be kind and we can get cracking soon enough!

17larsson

Look up Loxone. An Austrian system that sounds perfect for what you're after.
Instead of countless different devices and different apps for each one this is one system, one app and completely customisable and no need for replacing batteries every couple of years

Bluefoam

Wireless light switches
Smart sockets
Interactive ambient light sources.... Like hue led
Nest thermostats
Nest fire alarm
Arlo Q cameras... No subscription required
Roomba vacuum cleaner
Connected speakers throughout house with cast ability
Google Home hub
Nvidia shield
Nvidia spots throughout house
Ring Doorbell IFTTT
Harmony hub

Make sure there's strategically placed sockets and data connections...

wexfordman2

On the security side of it, look at the comfort alarm system by cytech, which interfaces to multiple smart home technologies, from x10 through to cbus, Velbus, zwave etc.

Had one now since 2000 and would recommend it.

Even if you go for a different system, having your security integrated to your automation is pretty much essential as far as I can advise, for many of the reasons you scoped out yourself including using security status and sensors to react accordingly.

eddiem74

I am in the process of retrofitting Fibaro devices into an existing house so have constraints. I am using Fibaro as I am trying to stick with one controller, app, etc as much as possible. Fibaro is Z-WAVE technology.

https://youtu.be/K35uFXoa5c0

https://youtu.be/R_I2p1Tq2QU

Regardless of what you think you need or want wire for everything while you have this great opportunity to do it, then you are future proofed for probably little extra cost in the scheme of things.

corcadorcha

Not to hijack thread but have similar question.
I hope to be in a similar position spin with a new build.
Cannot afford to install everything at start but wood love to have the essential wiring done during build.
I would also love to know where to run Cat6 or extra neutral or power.

I would love to keep as many options as possible open.
Any ideas would be great.
Thanks.

bk

I'd highly recommend running cat6 and as many drops as you can reasonably afford.

You could run just one drop per room and then have a switch at the end of each drop for multiple devices, but then that can look ugly and requires an extra power plug.

Also you might want to think about using separate cat6 drops to carry HDMI or 5.1 sound.

You'll also want to think where the drops go and may want to have multiple drops in a room, one on each wall, so that you don't have to run cat6 cables along the ground, etc.

I'm sure Stoner will be along with some recommendations on electrical recommendations.

The problem with all in one systems, is that they seldom do everything well and they tend to be scary expensive. As you say they are mostly for commercial usage and as such few of us have practical experience with them.

As for cloud connected security systems and their connection to other HA gear. For the most part they don't exist. The Home Security system world is for the most part way behind the rest of the consumer HA tech industry. They are understandably conservative.

I'd recommend at least for now, keeping your home security system and your HA tech largely separate.

Stoner

bk wrote:

I'd recommend at least for now, keeping your home security system and your HA tech largely separate.

I'd agree here. A security app can have your intruder alarm and CCTV on it

But I'd have them separate, the odd PIR doubling as a light PIR didn't really do it for me when I had it I wanted to point the PIRs at velux windows etc. rather than when I came out of the bathroom at night .

I'd pop in plenty of data points as above picking up the corners is important.

I'd wire speakers in speaker cabling though

A central point with power and data for routers

CCTV cameras in cat 6 too back to a secure position with an alarm pir near it .

Cat 6 as your doorbell cable too for future proofing

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

I'd highly recommend running cat6 and as many drops as you can reasonably afford.

You could run just one drop per room and then have a switch at the end of each drop for multiple devices, but then that can look ugly and requires an extra power plug.

Spot on, and its more hardware, and more power being used overall. Switches outside of your main hub should should be avoided, a good solution for if you happen to underestimate your requirements, but if you are building from scratch, dont design in additional switches in rooms if you can avoid it.

bk wrote: »

Also you might want to think about using separate cat6 drops to carry HDMI or 5.1 sound.

You'll also want to think where the drops go and may want to have multiple drops in a room, one on each wall, so that you don't have to run cat6 cables along the ground, etc.

I would also suggest that in the main tv rooms, that you try and add some form of duct so you can drop down additional cables later on if need be.

bk wrote: »

I'm sure Stoner will be along with some recommendations on electrical recommendations.

The problem with all in one systems, is that they seldom do everything well and they tend to be scary expensive. As you say they are mostly for commercial usage and as such few of us have practical experience with them.



As for cloud connected security systems and their connection to other HA gear. For the most part they don't exist. The Home Security system world is for the most part way behind the rest of the consumer HA tech industry. They are understandably conservative.

I think there are a few good examples of systems which have been out for a good while that are both reliable and affordable.

Comfort by cytech, (http://www.cytech.biz/) probably one of the most established agewise, and allowing a huge number of interfaces. It is not plug and play though and requires a decent level of logic to configure and program, but once done, is very stable and reliable.

IDRATEK also is well worth investigating (http://www.idratek.com/)

And I think it was bk mentioned loxone (https://www.loxone.com/enen/)

I have no affiliation with any of the above, apart from being a comfort user for nearly 20 years now with it interfacing to my velbus smart lighting (www.velbus.eu)

bk wrote: »

I'd recommend at least for now, keeping your home security system and your HA tech largely separate.

Perhaps if that is the approach, plan from the perspective of being able to integrate them at a later stage ?

wexfordman2

Stoner wrote: »

I'd agree here. A security app can have your intruder alarm and CCTV on it

And in some cases also your HA, for example, I log into the one app, to manage my security, look at my CCTV and control my lights/heating.

Stoner wrote: »

But I'd have them separate, the odd PIR doubling as a light PIR didn't really do it for me when I had it I wanted to point the PIRs at velux windows etc. rather than when I came out of the bathroom at night .

But then you end up doubling on pir's and door sensors everywhere dont you ? Would it no be better to only have to double up where there was a need to have sensors located in seperate areas for HA and security purposes (which would be rare enough I think ? ) ?

I will give you an example of my system, say the bathroom, which has a pir, and a door sensor. My lights are activated based on the following conditions

1) Its dusk
2) Either the PIR or door sensor is triggered.

Once the light is turned on, a countdown timer starts to count down to turn them off again (typically 3 mins), however, if the PIR is triggered when the door is closed, then the timer is paused, as there is obviously someone in the room (and you may have someone in the room and "sitting still" for more than 3 mins :-) )

The timer restarts when the bathroom door is opened again.

Stoner wrote: »

I'd pop in plenty of data points as above picking up the corners is important.

I'd wire speakers in speaker cabling though

A central point with power and data for routers

CCTV cameras in cat 6 too back to a secure position with an alarm pir near it .

Cat 6 as your doorbell cable too for future proofing

A cat 6 also to where you would like to locate control panels for your alarm system.

Stoner

this is something that we are going to have to disagree with.

For security reasons I'd keep them separate.

I wouldn't end up doubling up on many PIRs as discussed. I don't have or need that many intruder alarm PIRs .

Dual operation PIRs are great for lighting and cooling applications as they need to be mounted in the same position.

The lighting PIRs I have are in areas with no intruder alarm PIRs.
I dont have an intruder alarm pir in my toilets or utility room. I'd never ever need one. Any external door I have are covered by PIRs alright and it would be handy to have them turning on lights, but when I had it I didn't use it as it had not photo capabilities, but now you'd have a Google dusk to dawn input.


I must have a look at the system you have . Last time I looked only the Siemens panel was in anyway smart while still offering a system that could be certified by more than one company to an IS standard.

wexfordman2

Stoner wrote: »

this is something that we are going to have to disagree with.

For security reasons I'd keep them separate.

I wouldn't end up doubling up on many PIRs as discussed. I don't have or need that many intruder alarm PIRs .

Dylan operation PIRs are great for lighting and cooling applications as they need to be mounted in the same position.

The lighting PIRs I have are in areas with no intruder alarm PIRs.
I dont have an intruder alarm pir in my toilets or utility room. I'd never ever need one. Any external door I have are covered by PIRs alright and it would be handy to have them turning on lights, but when I had it I didn't use it as it had not photo capabilities, but now you'd have a Google dusk to dawn input.


I must have a look at the system you have . Last time I looked only the Siemens panel was in anyway smart while still offering a system that could be certified by more than one company to an IS standard.

The thing about the comfort system is that to really use the automation functions of it, you have to have access to program or yourself, you can get custom installers but better and more flexible to do it yourself.

It does fully comply to requirements, there are some registers installers in Ireland for it.

Your right about the pir in the bathroom, I put it in purely for light control TBH.

bk

From a purely logical perspective it certainly would seem to make a massive amount of sense to use your security system for HA tech. After all your security system comes with multiple PIR's, door and window contacts and knows when everyone is away. So it would make sense to use those sensors for the dual purpose of security and HA.

However, purely as a consumer, when I look at the options for integrating security systems with HA tech, the security systems seem to be WAY behind the consumer HA market.

The security systems I've looked at either have no integration at all or integration only with old standards like X10 or take an expert installer to set them up which will cost you €€€ or if you decide to DIY it, takes large amounts of time programming and setting up, with questionable results.

Given how much time and cost it takes to set up, if all you want to do is turn on a light when you enter a room, if it might not be easier to just buy a Hue motion sensor for £30 and spend the two minutes it takes to stick it up and set it up. Yes that may mean you now have two PIR's covering the same area *. That might feel like a waste, but it can be much cheaper then paying an installer to do it or the time it takes to DIY.

* Also the Hue motion PIR actually does a lot more then just motion that a typical security PIR does, it also does light levels, temperature, which could be handy.

From a consumer perspective, it just doesn't look like integrating security systems with HA tech is really worth the trouble.

However I'd love to see someone do a proper, modern, well integrated security system. Perhaps if someone like Philips, Nest, Netatmo were to buy a traditional security company and integrate it into their ecosystem. Our if iSmartHome or Smartthings were to add the necessary features (battery backup, LTE backup comms channel, etc.) to their products to turn them into a proper security system.

The security system market looks ripe for disruption IMO.

boopolo

Like you I am building a new home (already started) in The Philippines. I agree with the other OPs in that you should put as many CAT outlets as you can afford.
I will be using Homeseer as my main hub for control. I have it running on a PC at the moment for testing, I bought the licence at half price during Black Friday. You can also buy a standalone box if you do not have a PC running 24/7 or even run a limited version on a Raspberry Pi3.
I bought my hardware items from amazon to an address in Ireland and it is on it's way here. This consists of all Z-wave items dimmer units, switch units, (both fit behind switches in electrical boxes).  6 in 1 sensors and z-wave dongle (all items from Aelon Labs). I intend to get two amazon dots later.
Homeseer has many many addons. X10 is a free addon. (if you have some of them still)
I will use deep electrical boxes for a switches.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

From a purely logical perspective it certainly would seem to make a massive amount of sense to use your security system for HA tech. After all your security system comes with multiple PIR's, door and window contacts and knows when everyone is away. So it would make sense to use those sensors for the dual purpose of security and HA.

However, purely as a consumer, when I look at the options for integrating security systems with HA tech, the security systems seem to be WAY behind the consumer HA market.

The security systems I've looked at either have no integration at all or integration only with old standards like X10 or take an expert installer to set them up which will cost you €€€ or if you decide to DIY it, takes large amounts of time programming and setting up, with questionable results.

Given how much time and cost it takes to set up, if all you want to do is turn on a light when you enter a room, if it might not be easier to just buy a Hue motion sensor for £30 and spend the two minutes it takes to stick it up and set it up. Yes that may mean you now have two PIR's covering the same area *. That might feel like a waste, but it can be much cheaper then paying an installer to do it or the time it takes to DIY.

* Also the Hue motion PIR actually does a lot more then just motion that a typical security PIR does, it also does light levels, temperature, which could be handy.

From a consumer perspective, it just doesn't look like integrating security systems with HA tech is really worth the trouble.

However I'd love to see someone do a proper, modern, well integrated security system. Perhaps if someone like Philips, Nest, Netatmo were to buy a traditional security company and integrate it into their ecosystem. Our if iSmartHome or Smartthings were to add the necessary features (battery backup, LTE backup comms channel, etc.) to their products to turn them into a proper security system.

The security system market looks ripe for disruption IMO.

I would agree, you need to be able to access and program the security system yourself, otherwise it can work out expensive and even restrictive to get someone to install and even tweak it afterwards.

FrankGrimes

Wow, some really insightful input on this thread already, thanks to all - seems like there may be broad interest in a thread on how to start considering home automation options for a new house/renovation, wonder if there could be potential for a sticky?

Sounds like there are many options out there, which is great in terms of variety, but as I feared, can see this ending up sucking up a lot of hours cos I'm a researchaholic - had the luxury of doing that in days gone by, but less so now young kids have arrived. wexfordman2 - you don't happen to be same poster who was around about 10 years ago when I was researching renovating my first house and got some great advice on boards about how to install a CAT5 network?

I think I may need to find a happy medium between consumer products and a fully integrated system. Fully integrated sounds like it costs a bomb, e.g. quick glance at Loxone site showed over a grand for an intercom panel, whereas I think there are video doorbell consumer options out there for a couple of hundred. Consumer options bring advantage of lower cost for individual items, but need to gauge how it stacks up overall. Plus, the big concern is if you have lots of distinct consumer devices if you don't have a single way of controlling them and need to use lots of separate apps, you've diminished the value significantly.

So it's positive to hear that while standards have not yet converged, there at least seems to be some ability to control multiple devices from single apps (yonomi, IFTTT, others?) or controllers. So could I do something like get a Loxone Mini Server and use it for defining all my control logic and use its app for controlling devices, but rather than using Loxone devices exclusively, I could use say Hue lights, Nest thermostats etc.? That might be a sweet spot if so.

I love the Hue lights and the ability to set different shades of white (and colours in some places) - if you go with Loxone lighting do you get that same capability?

As a ballpark, what sort of price range should you have in mind for something like a fully-featured Loxone home automation setup for a 4-bed house? I don't have detailed budgets defined yet, but would guess €10K would be my upper limit, including alarm.

I'll continue to read up on some of the suggestions raised here and I guess once I know better what the possible capabilities out there are, I can then define the requirements for what I'm looking for and that would then make it easier to get more targeted advice for my given context. Though I do think this thread will serve as a good starting point for what will likely be an increasing volume of people looking to first learn about the HA possibilities and then figure out how to narrow down the many options to those most relevant for their scenario.

bk

The idea of one supplier and everything integrated into one system is again logically great, but again seems to fail the real world test.

Such systems tend to be horribly expensive and the results tend to be inferior compared to what you would get getting each piece from a separate company (for instance, no Luxone lights don't do RGB colours like Hue, you could of course mix Hue lights into Luxone switches, but now you are back to two apps/systems). Very much a case of a jack of all trades, master of non.

I think most of us have realised this and instead are focusing on cobbling together systems from the best company in each area (Philips Hue, Nest, Netatmo, LightwaveRF, Harmony Hub, etc.) and instead integrate them at a higher level with services like GHome, Amazon Alexa, IFTTT, Yonomi, HomeKit, Home Assistant, etc.

It sounds like a mess, but actually I've found the ones I use to work really well and be relatively easy to set up. Yes, it does mean I've separate apps for Hue, Harmony, Netatmo, Canary, etc. But I rarely use those apps beyond setup, usually I'm just giving commands to GHome and Alexa.

It is not perfect and this whole area continues to evolve quickly. But that is the state of play at the moment.

wexfordman2

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Wow, some really insightful input on this thread already, thanks to all - seems like there may be broad interest in a thread on how to start considering home automation options for a new house/renovation, wonder if there could be potential for a sticky?

Sounds like there are many options out there, which is great in terms of variety, but as I feared, can see this ending up sucking up a lot of hours cos I'm a researchaholic - had the luxury of doing that in days gone by, but less so now young kids have arrived. wexfordman2 - you don't happen to be same poster who was around about 10 years ago when I was researching renovating my first house and got some great advice on boards about how to install a CAT5 network?

I think I may need to find a happy medium between consumer products and a fully integrated system. Fully integrated sounds like it costs a bomb, e.g. quick glance at Loxone site showed over a grand for an intercom panel, whereas I think there are video doorbell consumer options out there for a couple of hundred. Consumer options bring advantage of lower cost for individual items, but need to gauge how it stacks up overall. Plus, the big concern is if you have lots of distinct consumer devices if you don't have a single way of controlling them and need to use lots of separate apps, you've diminished the value significantly.

So it's positive to hear that while standards have not yet converged, there at least seems to be some ability to control multiple devices from single apps (yonomi, IFTTT, others?) or controllers. So could I do something like get a Loxone Mini Server and use it for defining all my control logic and use its app for controlling devices, but rather than using Loxone devices exclusively, I could use say Hue lights, Nest thermostats etc.? That might be a sweet spot if so.

I love the Hue lights and the ability to set different shades of white (and colours in some places) - if you go with Loxone lighting do you get that same capability?

As a ballpark, what sort of price range should you have in mind for something like a fully-featured Loxone home automation setup for a 4-bed house? I don't have detailed budgets defined yet, but would guess €10K would be my upper limit, including alarm.

I'll continue to read up on some of the suggestions raised here and I guess once I know better what the possible capabilities out there are, I can then define the requirements for what I'm looking for and that would then make it easier to get more targeted advice for my given context. Though I do think this thread will serve as a good starting point for what will likely be an increasing volume of people looking to first learn about the HA possibilities and then figure out how to narrow down the many options to those most relevant for their scenario.

Hi frank, yep I think that night have been me ten years ago, under my original wexfordman account (I got all indignant around moderation in the afternoon hours forum and threw my rattler out of these pram cancelled my account. I'm older and wiser now though :-) )

Philips hue i think are amazing, and the implementation seems very simple, as you said, the ability to change colours etc is so straight forward.To do something like that outside of hue is doable but not as straight forward. I think you can do it in loxone and other systems but need some very specific modules to do it, but with hue it's just a lightbulb (an expensive one at that).

I think I am going to take the plunge and add some hue lamps to my setup, and my heating is definitely going to nest and moving away from comfort.

There is a plan afoot to get comfort to talk to smartthings, so that's probably the way I will get Alexa or google home talking to hue in a roundabout fashion.

What's missing from the plug and play, consumer devices such as hue and smart things, is a solution around manual control and local switching, I would be adamant to maintain full local control as well as smart control. Also missing is the ability to combine with a security system and use the same pirs and interact based in status of the alarm, although I will have that via comfort (let's classify comfort as a not so consumer friendly device that needs good technical grasp to configure ETc)

Phillips hue also i think needs to come up with a switch option that gives a like for like replacement, but also a solution where the option to install one hue device that will control a multiple of standard bulbs. For example, a room. With 7 gu10s is expensive to "hueify", but it could be possible to have one hue bulb dasiychained in series to the other non hue bulbs and as such one bulb controls the others in the same circuit.

I'm waffling now so I'll stop :-)


edit:- 10k to do this, I would say you could easily come within budget for that, particularly if you are going for self install setup.

Stoner

wexfordman2 wrote:

Phillips hue also i think needs to come up with a switch option that gives a like for like replacement, but also a solution where the option to install one hue device that will control a multiple of standard bulbs..

100 percent agree they need a switch and an inline options, I've had the same complaint from day 1

wexfordman2

Stoner wrote: »

100 percent agree they need a switch and an inline options, I've had the same complaint from day 1

The thing about switches, is that many of them require a nuetral, which is not present in a lot of houses though.

I have cat5 to all switches, must do a bit of searching to see if something can be done via this to philips hue.


On the subject of one bulb controlling all others, I wonder would it be possible to rewire a cluster of 7 gu10's, so that 6 of them are daisychained in series to one main hue bulb ? Too much load perhaps, and no dimming function ?

Stoner

wexfordman2 wrote:

The thing about switches, is that many of them require a nuetral, which is not present in a lot of houses though.

Many don't now the fibaro and lightwaverf ones don't so you could have momentary switches on MK grid system with two way communication on fibaro

wexfordman2 wrote:

On the subject of one bulb controlling all others, I wonder would it be possible to rewire a cluster of 7 gu10's, so that 6 of them are daisychained in series to one main hue bulb ? Too much load perhaps, and no dimming function ?

I've looked into it, and it's not possible imo. Popped it up on site where a guy did a teardown of the lamp he said as much too

Firstly if it was colour it would be more difficult. For white lamps the switching and dimming control cct would need to be looped off and connected to other lamps that operated under the same conditions
So where you usually have a D1 and D2 Control loop for dimming and switching, you'd have to locate the terminals on the Philips lamp and locate connection points on the other lamps the Philips lamps are always on and take a 0 percent signal as the off switch rather than on off control. Just like most DSI and dali units

.

I agree it sounds possible, I made similar noises but it all looked far from safe or cost effective when I looked into it. It's 25 pounds for a white lamp

boopolo

I would suggest that when you are building your house, you run a neutral wire to each switch. This will allow you the option of putting a z-wave micro switch or micro dimmer behind each of your normal light switches. They measure 50mm x51mm x 19mm. I  bought bunch (13) for 34 and 35 quid each before Christmas. Had to wait a while for the order to be fulfilled, but I wasn't in a hurry. Is see they are 38 and 48 quid each at the moment.
Another advantage of homeseer is that it will work if the internet goes down, unlike most of the other systems.

bk

boopolo wrote: »

Another advantage of homeseer is that it will work if the internet goes down, unlike most of the other systems.

Actually most of the biggest names in HA tech continue to work just fine if the internet goes down, Philips Hue, Logitech Harmony, Netatmo Thermostat, etc. all work just fine with no internet (obviously you lose remote access to them).

To be honest, I wouldn't buy a system that doesn't at least have some sort of local fall back mode if the internet is down.

boopolo

bk wrote: »

boopolo wrote: »

Another advantage of homeseer is that it will work if the internet goes down, unlike most of the other systems.

Actually most of the biggest names in HA tech continue to work just fine if the internet goes down, Philips Hue, Logitech Harmony, Netatmo Thermostat, etc. all work just fine with no internet (obviously you lose remote access to them).

To be honest, I wouldn't buy a system that doesn't at least have some sort of local fall back mode if the internet is down.

I mean a backbone control system, not the individual items. Samsung smart home and I think fibaro rely on internet, whereas homeseer really only needs internet if you want to control your home whilst at another location.

Shane732

Has anyone looked at Control4? I've often thought about having it installed, it's reasonably scale-able and integrates mainstream solutions like Hue, Sonos etc...

FrankGrimes

So I've been doing a bit of reading up since last posting here. One thing I found useful was reading this ebook. Not the best book ever, but for a few quid it was useful to get a good grounding in the basics. One thing that struck me was the author of this ebook opts substantially on the side of wireless rather than wired components. Wondering if that's similar for others here?

Based on my initial research to-date, I'm opting more towards going for individual components from different suppliers rather than a fully integrated system with a proprietary controller from one provider (e.g. Loxone). Reason being, it seems a high % of the same functionality can be achieved this way without tying yourself into a proprietary system which may involve cost, complexity (e.g. custom electrical wiring requirement with Loxone), and potentially lead to lock-in which may restrict future options.

I do like the sound of going z-wave for lighting as recommended in the ebook. The point that as you add devices the coverage improves seems a strong one if valid in practice. I very much like the idea of having light switches that are integrated (not Hue dimmers stuck to the wall) and intuitive to visitors, so z-wave seems to offer a lot of options for this that look well and are not excessively costly. For white lights, z-wave seems fine. I would add Hue lights where accent colours will actually be used (I have a few at home already and find after the first week, I only use colour in the living room). Sounds like only incremental wiring requirement for z-wave lighting is to run a neutral to each light switch, which shouldn't be an issue.

Haven't decided yet if I'll go for smart plugs for every socket, will decide after pricing it all up, but again z-wave would seem a decent and relatively straightforward option here, with the benefit of increasing coverage if I used them widely. 

Heating will ideally be underfloor heating, not yet sure if it'll be a gas boiler or air2water heat pump, either way sounds like if I get a multi-protocol hub, then hooking it up to Nest/Hive heating modules won't be an issue. 

Love the idea of using smart locks for external doors, hadn't thought about it, but that ebook really made them sound good and I was surprised to hear the battery life of z-wave is sufficient to not require the lock to be wired. 

I will still plan to install a CAT6 network and also run CAT6 additional cables to allow for HDMI-over-ethernet, but if I go with wireless options for the home automation devices, sounds like I don't need to run CAT5/6 to each socket, light fitting, or socket. I will still go ahead and run CAT6 wherever I think a smart device may potentially need it at some point in the future (e.g. fridge). Will also run in cables for external security cameras and wherever I want internal video monitors. 

On the security front, will keep an eye out for any developments on that front that integrate with home automation systems in the coming year, and go with a fully independent security system if needed. I'm still unclear as to whether motion sensors for home automation need cables run in, don't like the idea of having to go around with a ladder every so often to change batteries in Hue motion sensors. 

I'm guessing multi-protocol hubs like the Wink 2 and others similar will be available here by the time I get around to buying (best case 9-12mths). Just wanted to share my thoughts after my initial research to see if it resonates with others, or if based on your experience you would lean towards another approach, and anything that may steer me and others planning similar installations down the right path to learn more about the right solutions. 'Tis enjoyable stuff to research and play with all the same!

bk

FrankGrimes, I think everything you have written above is pretty sensible.

I agree that wireless zigbee/z-wave is the way to go. They use very small amounts of power and can often run years off batteries. Wireless is cheaper and easier to install, which means the market for wireless devices is far larger and more affordable then wired systems, which are largely going out of style.

BTW Hue uses Zigbee, which works exactly the same way as z-wave, it is also a mesh network.

I also wouldn't discount Hue White Ambiance bulbs. While I agree that you don't need Hue colour everywhere, I do find white ambiance with the different tones of white to be highly useful in almost every room.

Spot on with cat6, I don't think necessary for sockets, etc. But definitely need at least one drop per room for wireless AP's and preferably few more drops for video.

BoardsMember

Great post FrankGrimes, thanks. Am in similar situation, rewire pending and need to spec it soon. Think I'll do a single cat6 to all rooms for AP. Might also do a few drops from free to air into a few rooms. Thinking about witing everything back to a hub where I migjt have some network based storage so can pull movies etc from, not sure how to do this though.

bk

BoardsMember wrote: »

Thinking about witing everything back to a hub where I migjt have some network based storage so can pull movies etc from, not sure how to do this though.

Very easy. Get a Network Attached Storage (NAS) device that is powerful enough to run Plex Media Server and then use client devices on your TV's that run Plex Media Client (e.g. FireTV, Nvidia Shield TV, Playstation 4, etc.)

Alternatively for a cheaper option you can use a Nvidia Shield TV as both a server and client with just a big external HDD attached to it or using a cheaper lower power NAS running over the network.

Stoner

BoardsMember wrote:

Great post FrankGrimes, thanks. Am in similar situation, rewire pending and need to spec it soon. Think I'll do a single cat6 to all rooms for AP. Might also do a few drops from free to air into a few rooms. Thinking about witing everything back to a hub where I migjt have some network based storage so can pull movies etc from, not sure how to do this though.

Remember, if you bring all these cables back to somewhere like an attic you should have a smoke detector there too, you should have a smoke detector there anyway but it you have kit there it's even more risky

I've had various options for home shared storage. I installed a good few nas drives for people in their houses and I find them to be the best option. I've never found sticking a hard drive into a router or using any type of dual use PC to be reliable enough for use as a steady shared device in a household where you want less technical people to use it. It's fine if you are going to mess with it all the time and keep it on etc.

If you want to use Plex, Upnp devices or have a dnla server running or link Kodi to it then a NAS is the way to go IMO. So if you have your central hub location, pop the NAS here. You can get little combined multi sockets with a small UPS built in for a small enough cost.

Stoner

FrankGrimes wrote:

I do like the sound of going z-wave for lighting as recommended in the ebook. The point that as you add devices the coverage improves seems a strong one if valid in practice. I very much like the idea of having light switches that are integrated (not Hue dimmers stuck to the wall) and intuitive to visitors, so z-wave seems to offer a lot of options for this that look well and are not excessively costly. For white lights, z-wave seems fine. I would add Hue lights where accent colours will actually be used (I have a few at home already and find after the first week, I only use colour in the living room). Sounds like only incremental wiring requirement for z-wave lighting is to run a neutral to each light switch, which shouldn't be an issue.

I think you are on the right track here.

I wouldn't count Philips hue into an integrated system for a new build. They have no practical switching options compared to something like Fabaro. You can add it in but until they open up to having switches that go beyond being a remote control in a non standard shape stuck to a wall then you'd be mad to put something that's designed for retrofit by a novice into a proper new build.

So if you use neutrals at the light switches make sure the back boxes have plenty of space to add the inline switches and dimmers.

FrankGrimes

Stoner wrote: »

I think you are on the right track here.

I wouldn't count Philips hue into an integrated system for a new build. They have no practical switching options compared to something like Fabaro. You can add it in but until they open up to having switches that go beyond being a remote control in a non standard shape stuck to a wall then you'd be mad to put something that's designed for retrofit by a novice into a proper new build.

So if you use neutrals at the light switches make sure the back boxes have plenty of space to add the inline switches and dimmers.

Good advice, thanks for that. Totally agree theres no substitute for proper switches and Hue isn't there right now. Actually a bit surprised that it was relatively quick to research and figure out what the best options are for my setup, way more straightforward than they were a few years back. Am sure there'll be plenty of hours to put in to figure out what the best components (e.g. will now look at Fabaro) are for each scenario, but good to have a high-level understanding of the key concepts at this point.

FrankGrimes

bk wrote: »

Very easy. Get a Network Attached Storage (NAS) device that is powerful enough to run Plex Media Server and then use client devices on your TV's that run Plex Media Client (e.g. FireTV, Nvidia Shield TV, Playstation 4, etc.)

Alternatively for a cheaper option you can use a Nvidia Shield TV as both a server and client with just a big external HDD attached to it or using a cheaper lower power NAS running over the network.

What type of NAS would you suggest? Want to make sure that it's expandable for extra storage in future. That said, a lot of TV we watch is IP-based with smart client boxes around the house and that'll only increase in future. So wasn't quite sure about the emphasis some place on routing HDMI around the house, perhaps over cat6. Is it more a case of it's best to have options so run in extra cat6 to where distributing HDMI may be a useful option?

Also saw your post about running cat6 for adding access points in every room, very interesting. I was thinking of going for one of the new wireless mesh setups but would access points be best way to go? I want fast wifi with no blackspots and also want to set it uo for coverage in the garden and in a shes that'll have a gym room in it. If access points aren't hugely expensive, aren't too tricky to setup (reasonably techie but don't want to lose too many orecious hours) and gives best performance, I'll go for that particularly if I can design in ways to ensure they're discretely positioned out of sight.

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

What type of NAS would you suggest? Want to make sure that it's expandable for extra storage in future. That said, a lot of TV we watch is IP-based with smart client boxes around the house and that'll only increase in future. So wasn't quite sure about the emphasis some place on routing HDMI around the house, perhaps over cat6. Is it more a case of it's best to have options so run in extra cat6 to where distributing HDMI may be a useful option?

There are so many options for NAS's out there, it is hard to recommend without knowing your requirements.

For instance I've a QNAP T420, it is a 4 drive RAID array NAS, with 4 x 2TB HDD in RAID 5. It is pretty good, but an old NAS now and not powerful enough to run Plex server itself, instead I run Plex server on a mac mini and jsut store the video on the NAS.

This is the modern version of my NAS that I've had my eye on to upgrade to:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/QNAP-TS-453A-4G-Bay-NAS-Enclosure/dp/B017UKCHVM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1485993345&sr=8-1&keywords=qnap+nas

It is basically a PC in it's own right with 4 or 8GB of RAM and an Intel CPU, so plenty of power to run Plex. But expensive too. Note it also comes in 6 and 8 drive models for future expansion.

But I agree with you that I'm increasingly streaming, so I've held off on upgrading it for that reason, for now any way.

Yes, I'd run cat6 to give me options. Yes I'm doing more streaming nowadays with clients devices too. But streaming still isn't great for distributing, for instance no way can it handle Bluray from a PS3/4, it isn't great for streaming video from a satellite box (possible but I don't find it great), etc.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Also saw your post about running cat6 for adding access points in every room, very interesting. I was thinking of going for one of the new wireless mesh setups but would access points be best way to go? I want fast wifi with no blackspots and also want to set it uo for coverage in the garden and in a shes that'll have a gym room in it. If access points aren't hugely expensive, aren't too tricky to setup (reasonably techie but don't want to lose too many orecious hours) and gives best performance, I'll go for that particularly if I can design in ways to ensure they're discretely positioned out of sight.

Wireless access points over cat6 would definitely be the best way to go. Actually some of those new wireless mesh networks actually also support cat6 backhaul where available (Google Wifi, Eero) and when you use them with cat6 backhaul they get vastly better performance then when using wireless as backhaul.

This makes sense, because cat6 has vastly more bandwidth available then wifi does.

These wireless mesh networks are only a poor substitute for people who can't run cat6 and have no other way of getting better coverage. Using wireless backhaul, they are very much a less ditch attempt to get coverage, not the first thing to try.

Don't get me wrong, it is very good that these options are now available, but people shouldn't buy into the marketing. They aren't magic.

This is what people should do to improve wifi in order of preference:

1) A high quality 802.11ac router placed in a good location (center of house, up high). This solves 90% of peoples wifi problems in typical Irish homes.

2) Wireless Access Points hanging off cat5e/6. I'd recommend Ubiquiti WAP's.

Google Home and Eero using cat6 backhaul might be an easier to set up consumer option when they finally come available in Europe, at the moment it would be illegal to import and use them.

3) If you can't run cat6 then Netgear Orbi.

It is expensive and only consists of two units, but it gives way better performance then any of the other wireless mesh options, as it uses far more wireless backhaul. Also unlike the other options it is actually available in Ireland.

Even though it only has two units, it actually solves the problem most people have. That their modem is behind the TV or other external wall, which is typically a bad position for wifi routers. With the Orbi setup the idea is that you put one unit next to your modem and then the other unit in the center of your home and it uses lots of wireless backhaul to bridge the gap. It is a decent solution for people who definitely can't run cat6.

FrankGrimes

Brilliant advice bk, will definitely go for wireless access points on that basis. The ubiquit APs actually look quite discrete so not eye sores. One of the reviews mentioned POE - does that mean the Aps can be powered over ethernet and so no plug is required? Very, very handy if so as you just pick a spot on a wall and run in a cat6 and you're done (sounds like you need a POE-enabled switch so that it's sending power over those lines to those devices)? Guessing in most rooms location of the AP won't matter too much as it should easily cover the room unless it's significantly obstructed?
 
There seems to be 3 types of AP on Amazon - this consumer unit, this pro unit, and this long range unit. I see them as a great long-term investment, so getting a good few around the house would be worthwhile, but what's the best option for future-proofing?
 
Thanks for the NAS suggestion also - when you consider how many cheap backbone PCs there are out there, most NAS systems do seem overpriced but if they make the RAID configuration easy and are set-and-forget, I can see the value.
 

Came across the attached image of startup smart home companies on LinkedIn (not sure I'd include Sonos in a startup list though), so thought I'd share it summarises the type of devices well and may be worth keeping an eye on how some of the offerings from these companies turn out. Wonder if there's a similar type of summary graphic for established options, would be very helpful if so.

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Brilliant advice bk, will definitely go for wireless access points on that basis. The ubiquit APs actually look quite discrete so not eye sores. One of the reviews mentioned POE - does that mean the Aps can be powered over ethernet and so no plug is required? Very, very handy if so as you just pick a spot on a wall and run in a cat6 and you're done (sounds like you need a POE-enabled switch so that it's sending power over those lines to those devices)? Guessing in most rooms location of the AP won't matter too much as it should easily cover the room unless it's significantly obstructed?
 
There seems to be 3 types of AP on Amazon - this consumer unit, this pro unit, and this long range unit. I see them as a great long-term investment, so getting a good few around the house would be worthwhile, but what's the best option for future-proofing?

Yes, the Ubiquiti AP's are powered over ethernet. They actually come with a POE adaptor in the box, so no you don't need to buy a POE switch. Though if you eventually get multiple AP's then it would be neater to use a POE switch then multiple adaptors obviously.

The first one is 802.11n only. The second two are 802.11ac. I'd go with the Pro one, it supports the highest speeds.

FrankGrimes

Forgot to attach that image of smart home startups, have attached now, but have forgotten how to include an image inline.
I'll go for those pro Ubiquiti APs so, from reviews they seem excellent. Even better they can be run outdoors (with adequate shelter). I'll get one for the garden and the shed. House, if we get planning, would be 170sqm all roughly 20m long floor, with one upstairs room. Wonder would it need one AP upstairs, one in the bedroom area, one in the living area, or better to go overkill and put 4 into the house?
Had a look at Fibaro, looks like it's a full system with its own controller. What's the pros/cons of that controller vs something general like Wink 2 hub? Will look into it further, hopefull you can control Fibaro lights with another controller? Interesting Fibaro don't require neutrals to the light switches, though I'll have those run anyway.

BoardsMember

Just reading about Devolo as a provider of some home control products, and it is z-wave based. Rather than buying a devolo controller, I'm now starting to look at getting a "generic" one. This article might be useful to people: http://buildyoursmarthome.co/reviews/best-z-wave-controller/ It looks like the Samsung Smarthings is the one to go for, and would work with almost anything I might be considering.

Has anyone come across Devolo.

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

I'll go for those pro Ubiquiti APs so, from reviews they seem excellent. Even better they can be run outdoors (with adequate shelter). I'll get one for the garden and the shed. House, if we get planning, would be 170sqm all roughly 20m long floor, with one upstairs room. Wonder would it need one AP upstairs, one in the bedroom area, one in the living area, or better to go overkill and put 4 into the house?

I'd put the cat6 drops in place, but only buy one or two AP's to start with and see how that goes. You can add more then easily if you find you need it.

jimmy_t

KNX have launched a product aimed at the domestic market so this could be a whole house solution that wasnt cost effective before:



https://www.knx.org/knx-en/Landing-Pages/ETS-Inside/index.php

Hopefully somebody with more knowledge than me could provide better insight but looking at it quickly it looks like it has potential and maybe a better solution than something like loxone?

FrankGrimes

So I've been continuing to research things and am now at the point where I'd like to select the controller I'll go with as one of the tips I read was to acquire it ahead of time to do some playing around and testing with. I reckon we'll end up with a large number of devices and I'm now leaning towards going with the Homeseer Hometroller as it seems to be one of the most powerful controllers out there (from my albeit brief reading).


I was planning to have a NAS running for serving media and possibly for recording from IP cameras. Would it make more sense to just get a PC (I have one I won't be using any more) and install Hometroller on it and get a z-wave USB dongle? Could this take care of everything or is it simplest to just split it out and have a dedicated HA device to avoid any potential overheating issues/power on/off issues with having a PC running 24/7?

FrankGrimes

 Have also seen LED strip lights used in many recent builds and am intrigued about the possibility of using them indoors and outdoors. There's so many options of LED strips and ways of controlling them out there, it's hard to narrow it down. Should I go 24V or 12V? Which type are proven to be reliable outdoors for garden and driveway use (some of those claiming to be waterproof look quite flimsy)? I'm more likely to use shades of white, or very whitened colours, so is RGBW best option and does that have any implications for wiring/controller, or no different?
 
I've seen the Fibaro RGB controller and it looks like it works well for strip lighting smart control. Can you wire several strips into the one Fibaro controller, so all strips in one room that you want to come on/off at the same time (e.g. say all under-cabinet lights and a bookshelf in the kitchen)? Could see it getting pricey if individual controllers are needed. Have been browsing YouTube here and there for videos on strip lighting - there's any amount of them, so if anyone has a link to a guide you found quite informative, that'd be much appreciated.

eddiem74

FrankGrimes wrote: »

 Have also seen LED strip lights used in many recent builds and am intrigued about the possibility of using them indoors and outdoors. There's so many options of LED strips and ways of controlling them out there, it's hard to narrow it down. Should I go 24V or 12V? Which type are proven to be reliable outdoors for garden and driveway use (some of those claiming to be waterproof look quite flimsy)? I'm more likely to use shades of white, or very whitened colours, so is RGBW best option and does that have any implications for wiring/controller, or no different?
 
I've seen the Fibaro RGB controller and it looks like it works well for strip lighting smart control. Can you wire several strips into the one Fibaro controller, so all strips in one room that you want to come on/off at the same time (e.g. say all under-cabinet lights and a bookshelf in the kitchen)? Could see it getting pricey if individual controllers are needed. Have been browsing YouTube here and there for videos on strip lighting - there's any amount of them, so if anyone has a link to a guide you found quite informative, that'd be much appreciated.

I am using a Fibaro RGBW module in our main living room running 2 x 5M Led strip lights around the ceiling with a 150W Led driver.

From memory think it is these:

https://www.hiline-lighting.co.uk/gb/rgbw-led-strips/172-rgbw-led-strip-rgbww-30-24v-ip00-5060440710957.html

https://www.hiline-lighting.co.uk/gb/home/121-mains-dimmable-led-driver-24v-150w-ip20-5060440710421.html

Example from YouTube: https://youtu.be/HPSF2_yIOBQ

FrankGrimes

So I've been continuing the research as we work through the planning process. One question I have is can you extend a z-wave network regardless of what controller you are using? I want to ensure we have flawless coverage for z-wave all through what will be quite a long house. I know Homeseer have a Z-NET device that you can connect via ethernet and it'll extend the range of the z-wave network.

For the likes of parts of the house remote from the home controller, and the garden, driveway, and shed (all of which I have automation plans for), can you run ethernet cable and add a device (e.g. USB over ethernet) to extend the same z-wave network (rather than creating a 2nd network), or is that limited based on what controller you go for?

FrankGrimes

And on the LED strips topic, I spoke to a relative who is an electrician. He confirmed general approach is to go with LED drivers that are wired into the mains (rather than the ones which need a plug, which he described as more DIY-type).

And either way, you find where you want to put the driver in a place that can be concealed and then run electrical cable to the point where you want to bring it out of the wall, and then use more cable to join between any breaks you want to make in the strips of LED (e.g. different shelves). If you're going with a switch (rather than purely automated), another cable for that.

He also said one approach is to run standard mains cable back to the fuseboard and put the LED driver and dimmer module there so you have easy access to it, and it can then be split out at the far end and soldered to the LED strip where you need it. Has the advantage that should there be an issue and you need to move the driver or dimmer to the destination room at any point, you can do that and connect the mains cable directly to the fuseboard and to the driver at the other end.

Big advantage of this approach of putting the drivers and dimmer modules at the fuseboard location is you don't need to know exactly where you want to put every single LED strip when doing the first fix of cabling (if you were putting drivers and dimmers in the destination room, you'd need to know where you'd be hiding them. So just run the cable back to the fuseboard to, say, roughly the bath area, and then later when doing the tiling you can figure where exactly to bring the cable out from behind the tiles. So it gives a lot more flexibility and less need to plan every detail in advance. Should be particularly useful for the garden lights, just run plenty of cable back to the fuseboard and figure out how to use it later.

As I hadn't heard this approach before, I wanted to share it in case it's helpful for others and also to see if people have experiences with it and can confirm the pros and cons.

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

So I've been continuing the research as we work through the planning process. One question I have is can you extend a z-wave network regardless of what controller you are using? I want to ensure we have flawless coverage for z-wave all through what will be quite a long house. I know Homeseer have a Z-NET device that you can connect via ethernet and it'll extend the range of the z-wave network.

Interestingly Samsung have announced another one of those wireless * mesh wifi systems. But what is interesting and unique about this one, is that each one will also act as a smarthings hub and repeater.

That should give you excellent z-wave coverage if you are willing to use smarthings system.

No idea when it will hit Europe.

* As always I recommend using ethernet for backhaul for these devices, instead of wifi backhaul which is just terrible.

FrankGrimes

Interesting. I was just about to buy a couple of Ubiquity APs so I could get them setup etc and gain the benefit of eliminating dead spots in my current house and then take them with me to the new house. But if the Samsung one maya be the way to go as they give me zwave extension, I'd hold off.

But is a zwave extender necessary inside the house as I'll have minimum one zwave device in every room and as they are each supposed to repeat the network should I have good coverage anyway?

But are there other ways of extending a zwave network to remote locations like sheds (over ethernet) that are not in an AP/hub?

bk

FrankGrimes wrote: »

But is a zwave extender necessary inside the house as I'll have minimum one zwave device in every room and as they are each supposed to repeat the network should I have good coverage anyway?

Yes, Zwave is a wireless mesh technology, which means each devices naturally acts as a repeater for the next device along (unlike wifi). So if you have one in each room, then you are unlikely to need more.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

But are there other ways of extending a zwave network to remote locations like sheds (over ethernet) that are not in an AP/hub?

Yes dedicated Zwave repeaters exist, e.g.

http://aeotec.com/z-wave-repeater

In most cases they shouldn't be needed, but in the case like a shed, they could help reach it as they have slightly more powerful antenna.

BTW The Ubiquiti WAPs are excellent, while it is perhaps unfair to judge them before it is released, I doubt a cheap samsung consumer device would come anywhere close to the performance of the Ubiquiti's.

bk

More here:
http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/03/29/samsungs-new-router-built-smartthings-hub-supports-mesh-networking/

Roen

Only Zwave devices that are mains powered act as repeaters. Battery powered ones don't pass along anything.
If battery powered ones passed signal for others you could potentially end up in a situation where a few devices were relayed through one device.
You'd end up replacing the battery on that device frequently and losing contact with them all when your battery did run out.

From the zwave site

"Z-Wave is based on a mesh network topology. This means each (non-battery) device installed in the network becomes a signal repeater."

That said in a new build I assume you have the opportunity to wire in a few into sockets and light switches so you should be golden!

FrankGrimes

Thanks. I will likely have plenty of hardwired zwave devices so coveragein the house should be fine. I'll go ahead with the Ubiquity APs as I want best quality wifi coverage.

Will keep looking for info on how to best bridge to the shed. I'm not keen on the Homeseer UI but its znet extender would suit this scenario well and I also want a hub that is powerful but can run locally without internet if needed, so may reluctantly end up going that route if I don't find better ideas for extending the network to the shed.