fitness for kids

jamboambo1

Anyone know a good gym in South Dublin that has classes for kids while i use the gym myself. The only one i know of is David Lloyd Riverview . Is this any good? worth the money?
Are there any other gyms that have this facility?

Brian?

What ages are the kids?

Would gymnastics interest them?

dar100

I see a lot of kids lifting weights etc!! Young children shouldn't be doing this as their bodies are still developing

Not saying this is the case here, just my thoughts

Brian?

dar100 wrote: »

I see a lot of kids lifting weights etc!! Young children shouldn't be doing this as their bodies are still developing

Not saying this is the case here, just my thoughts

I am sorry, but that's a complete myth. There is nothing wrong with kids doing resistance training at all.

My kids are in gymnastics and do all sorts of bodyweight exercises that are no different than lifting weights. Resistance training is resistance training.

Mellor

dar100 wrote: »

I see a lot of kids lifting weights etc!! Young children shouldn't be doing this as their bodies are still developing

There's no science to back that up I believe. Gymnastics, wrestling, football (in all it's forms), etc are all similar forms of resistance training. And millions of kids around the world are involved. If it stunned growth, we'd know about it.

jamboambo1

It's not weights i want her to do . She's only 6 and i am mainly looking for somewhere that does group activities with the kids while i use the gym.ie dodgeball, games etc
David Lloyd seem to kids activities but was wondering if there was somewhere else that offered that facility

Brian?

jamboambo1 wrote: »

It's not weights i want her to do . She's only 6 and i am mainly looking for somewhere that does group activities with the kids while i use the gym.ie dodgeball, games etc
David Lloyd seem to kids activities but was wondering if there was somewhere else that offered that facility

For a child of 6, I really recommend gymnastics. At that age there is no parental involvement, your time is your own while they are in the class. It's a phenomenal sport to build strength and balance. My 6 year old trains 1.5 hours twice a week and his level of fitness is frightening sometimes.

Alf Veedersane

I think the OP is more interested in a gym that has kids facilities so the kids have something to do while he works out...rather than a facility where his kids can do fitness training. Well, that's how I read it...

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I think the OP is more interested in a gym that has kids facilities so the kids have something to do while he works out...rather than a facility where his kids can do fitness training. Well, that's how I read it...

Indeed he is. But, gymnastics gives him 1.5 hours to do whatever he wants with, most sports for a 6 year old expect the parents to hang around and be involved. I don't think I made that clear.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

Indeed he is. But, gymnastics gives him 1.5 hours to do whatever he wants with, most sports for a 6 year old expect the parents to hang around and be involved. I don't think I made that clear.

Out of interest, what age did your kids start gymnastics at?

unknownlegend

Brian? wrote: »

Indeed he is. But, gymnastics gives him 1.5 hours to do whatever he wants with, most sports for a 6 year old expect the parents to hang around and be involved. I don't think I made that clear.

That's interesting to hear. I've recently had a kid myself, and while it may be several years away, I'd like to know how to introduce my kid to something like gymnastics. Seems a good way to gently get them interested in fitness and the routine of it, while enabling me to get a workout done. Fair play. Something I must read up on.

As to the OP, I'm a Westwood member and they have a kids area separate from the main gym area. I've never paid more than a casual glance, but there seems to be treadmills, mats etc and they do classes. See their website for details.

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Brian? wrote: »

Indeed he is. But, gymnastics gives him 1.5 hours to do whatever he wants with, most sports for a 6 year old expect the parents to hang around and be involved. I don't think I made that clear.

Out of interest, what age did your kids start gymnastics at?

My older son laid the foundations when he was 14 months. He developed his rough motor skills very early and walked at 8 months. He did classes while we lived in the US that were largely agility, balance and grip strength exercises.

Both started actual gymnastics when they were around 2. The first year is basically play with the parents involved for 45 minutes. Then they move up to an hour class with no parental involvement at 3ish.

My 6 year has actually jumped ahead of his age group and train with 7-8 year old twice a week for 1.5 hours.

I've never had to push the kids towards it, they both love it and the coaching in our club is excellent. I'm hoping they keep it up.

RayCun

Brian? wrote: »

I am sorry, but that's a complete myth. There is nothing wrong with kids doing resistance training at all.

My kids are in gymnastics and do all sorts of bodyweight exercises that are no different than lifting weights. Resistance training is resistance training.

Bodyweight resistance is different from lifting weights. Kids shouldn't do real weight training until they pass the stage of peak growth velocity.

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

Bodyweight resistance is different from lifting weights. Kids shouldn't do real weight training until they pass the stage of peak growth velocity.

Why not?

RayCun

cc87 wrote: »

Why not?

Potential damage to the growth plates at the end of their bones.

(I'm an athletics coach. I've been told this by several different tutors on training courses )

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

Potential damage to the growth plates at the end of their bones.

(I'm an athletics coach. I've been told this by several different tutors on training courses )

A landing from a one meter height puts 7 times bodyweight through lower limb joints. Which far outweighs the forces put through a body during a squat. Should they not land as well??

Came across this earlier, I like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Mge4aqsSw

RayCun

cc87 wrote: »

A landing from a one meter height puts 7 times bodyweight through lower limb joints. Which far outweighs the forces put through a body during a squat. Should they not land as well??

That type of plyometrics would be kept to older athletes.
Yes, I know a gym dismount could involve a drop like that, but a kid would not do dismount after dismount, and would often practice with a soft mat.

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

That type of plyometrics would be kept to older athletes.
Yes, I know a gym dismount could involve a drop like that, but a kid would not do dismount after dismount, and would often practice with a soft mat.

How about jumping out of a tree, over a wall or off a piece of equipment in the playground?

And landing isn't plyometric.

Brian?

RayCun wrote: »

Bodyweight resistance is different from lifting weights. Kids shouldn't do real weight training until they pass the stage of peak growth velocity.

I am willing to accept I'm wrong. But how is lifting weights different from bodyweight resistance? They both place stress on the body in the same way through increased resistance.

Brian?

RayCun wrote: »

That type of plyometrics would be kept to older athletes.
Yes, I know a gym dismount could involve a drop like that, but a kid would not do dismount after dismount, and would often practice with a soft mat.

I've seen kids do many many dismounts like that in session.

RayCun

cc87 wrote: »

How about jumping out of a tree, over a wall or off a piece of equipment in the playground?

Doing that repeatedly is not a good idea.

That video says so - strength training is important in adolescent and pre-adolescent athletes, but it should be kept to bodyweight training, under the supervision of a qualified coach.
Hypertrophy should wait until after PGV , and starting power development too early is a bad idea.

RayCun

Brian? wrote: »

I am willing to accept I'm wrong. But how is lifting weights different from bodyweight resistance? They both place stress on the body in the same way through increased resistance.

How is a one k run different from a 10k run? They are both aerobic , endurance events after all.

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

Doing that repeatedly is not a good idea.

That video says so - strength training is important in adolescent and pre-adolescent athletes, but it should be kept to bodyweight training, under the supervision of a qualified coach.
Hypertrophy should wait until after PGV , and starting power development too early is a bad idea.

And eventually in order to allow progression to take place, that bodyweight training will have to progress to external loading as well. Otherwise the athlete will not continue to progress. Of course this progression can take place through both additional loading or through exercise complexity but progression is necessary.

If I'm working with an 11 year old who will not go through PHV until 15, I do him a disservice by only allowing him to perform bodyweight exercises for almost 4 years.

Brian?

RayCun wrote: »

How is a one k run different from a 10k run? They are both aerobic , endurance events after all.

Are you saying kids shouldn't run 10k as well? It's the only way your analogy works.

With the greatest respect, if you can't back up you assertion that they are different without resorting to one liners like this it doesn't look like you have a any back up.

I know conventional wisdom has been that kids should stay away from resistance training as it stunts growth etc., but this wisdom has changed recently. There is no data to show it's true, in fact data shows that the earlier strength training is started the greater benefit when it comes to bone density etc. .

Brian?

RayCun wrote: »

How is a one k run different from a 10k run? They are both aerobic , endurance events after all.

I have another point on this actually. Take pull ups. My 6 year old does pull ups as part of his gymnastics training. The time is coming where he will be able to complete 20 wide grip pull ups, it will happen before puberty, but once he is at this point he's no longer building strength by doing pull ups. It's an endurance exercise and not a strength exercise once it reaches that point.

Is it your contention that he continues to do pull ups without adding any extra resistance? What if he puts on some fat, the pull ups are harder because he's fatter and therefore the resistance is increased. Does he have to stop doing pull ups?

RayCun

cc87 wrote: »

And eventually in order to allow progression to take place, that bodyweight training will have to progress to external loading as well. .

Yeah, when he's old enough. What sport are you training him for?

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

Yeah, when he's old enough. What sport are you training him for?

Ah so age is a factor now? What age is old enough?

Why does the sport matter?

RayCun

Brian? wrote: »

Are you saying kids shouldn't run 10k as well? .

Yes, I am. And that is also the opinion of athletics Ireland. At 14, for example, the longest races in competition are 3-4k cross country, 1500 on the track. Athletes are not supposed to race 10k until they are 16 or 17 (I can get the exact age from the juvenile competition booklet in the morning if you like)

RayCun

cc87 wrote: »

Ah so age is a factor now? What age is old enough?

Why does the sport matter?

Peak growth velocity is a factor.

I'm curious.

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

Peak growth velocity is a factor.

I'm curious.

Yes PHV is a factor but if I have someone that is 2 years pre-PHV and completely competent in any exercise I ask of him in the gym, why should I not place an amount of resistance into those exercises? Many athletes go through PHV without it having any effect upon them in terms of "adolescent awkwardness" or growth-related pains (Osgoods, severs etc)

Right now soccer previously rugby, tennis and a few others. All mainly youth athletes from 5/6 years of age and up.

Brian?

RayCun wrote: »

Yes, I am. And that is also the opinion of athletics Ireland. At 14, for example, the longest races in competition are 3-4k cross country, 1500 on the track. Athletes are not supposed to race 10k until they are 16 or 17 (I can get the exact age from the juvenile competition booklet in the morning if you like)

What about the rest of my post?

RayCun

Speaking of backing up our arguments. .. as I've said, I'm an athletics coach. I've done athletics leader, assistant coach, and level one courses, as well as endurance -specific courses, most of them discussing the same long-term athletic development model the video above talked about. Three different coaching Ireland accredited tutors have made the same point (also in that UK athletics video ) about younger athletes developing strength through bodyweight training.

RayCun

cc87 wrote: »

Right now soccer previously rugby, tennis and a few others. All mainly youth athletes from 5/6 years of age and up.

Why are you spending so much time in the gym at that age, at that point in their athletic development?

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

Why are you spending so much time in the gym at that age, at that point in their athletic development?

You must know how much time they are in the gym for at that age to make that statement??

Brian?

RayCun wrote: »

Speaking of backing up our arguments. .. as I've said, I'm an athletics coach. I've done athletics leader, assistant coach, and level one courses, as well as endurance -specific courses, most of them discussing the same long-term athletic development model the video above talked about. Three different coaching Ireland accredited tutors have made the same point (also in that UK athletics video ) about younger athletes developing strength through bodyweight training.

That's all grand, I admire that you're heavily involved in coaching. I'm not trying to be awkward and I genuinely not trying to get at you personally, but I don't understand your point about bodyweigth training. Whenever someone tells me people should do X, the first thing I ask is why do X? I need to understand the why.

Fat kids will be using far more weight that slim kids when doing bodyweight training for example. Why not increase the external resistance for the slim child to build his strength in line with the fat child? What about the question I asked about pull ups earlier?

There is an orthodoxy to your posts I don't quite get, I am questioning it. Back up is actual data, not what you've been taught.

Mellor

RayCun wrote: »

Bodyweight resistance is different from lifting weights.

How is it different? From a physiological stand point, in terms of stress on the body.

How do the stress in a press up differ from, the equivalent loaded bench press. Or pull up vrs pull down. (just picking these as basic moves.

If a kid can do the simple stuff, should they progress to advanced stuff like L-Sit presses, planch work etc?

RayCun wrote: »

Speaking of backing up our arguments. .. as I've said, I'm an athletics coach. I've done athletics leader, assistant coach, and level one courses, as well as endurance -specific courses, most of them discussing the same long-term athletic development model the video above talked about. Three different coaching Ireland accredited tutors have made the same point (also in that UK athletics video ) about younger athletes developing strength through bodyweight training.

Just because athletic Ireland advocate it doesn't necessarily mean its correct. Those types of organisations, particularly in Ireland, have a habit of going with outdated hearsay rather than latest information. Look at the recommendations my Safefood and similar official bodies, or even look at the typical middle aged GP's advice on exercise and diet.

Don't get my wrong, I think there is an advantage to bodyweight exercises, particularly for young uncoordinated people. But for completely different reasons.

Growth plate injuries are much more likely to happen when playing sport or bodyweight training than when lifting weights. Running, jumping, falling, etc cause great force impacts on the body. So why don't advice against doing any sport at all until they are finished growing?

RayCun

cc87 wrote: »

You must know how much time they are in the gym for at that age to make that statement??

If they're 11 years old, and they've done all the bodyweight training possible so that you have no choice but to introduce weights for progression, they must be spending a lot of time in the gym

RayCun

Brian? wrote: »

Fat kids will be using far more weight that slim kids when doing bodyweight training for example. Why not increase the external resistance for the slim child to build his strength in line with the fat child? What about the question I asked about pull ups earlier?

Fat kids will typically be able to do far fewer reps than slim kids.

Brian? wrote: »

There is an orthodoxy to your posts I don't quite get, I am questioning it. Back up is actual data, not what you've been taught.

Whereas it looks to me that your position is "I like weight training. Weight training is good. Therefore it is good for kids too."

I have told you why I have this position - it's something I have been told repeatedly, by experts. Why do you hold your position?

Brian?

RayCun wrote: »

Fat kids will typically be able to do far fewer reps than slim kids.

Initially yes. But they'll gain strength.

Whereas it looks to me that your position is "I like weight training. Weight training is good. Therefore it is good for kids too."

I have told you why I have this position - it's something I have been told repeatedly, by experts. Why do you hold your position?

I hold my position because of lack of evidence to the contrary, you hold yours based on the word of people you believe are eminent In the field. I challenge your experts then. Can you name them so I can research myself?

Mellor

RayCun wrote: »

I have told you why I have this position - it's something I have been told repeatedly, by experts.

If people are just parroting each other says and what they are told. They aren't experts.

Experts back up their claims on data, research and evidence.

RayCun

Mellor wrote: »

Just because athletic Ireland advocate it doesn't necessarily mean its correct.

Experts, what do they know? :rolleyes:

Do you think Athletics Ireland (and UK Athletics, who produced the video posted earlier) are not interested in making athletes the best they can possibly be?

The first coach to tell me this was a throwing coach. Shot putters spend a lot of time in the gym, it's a power-based event. But he was very clear, bodyweight training is plenty until they are older.

I've heard the same thing from people with recent degrees, who work as physiotherapists and strength and conditioning coaches. This is not all old wives tales.

RayCun

Brian? wrote: »

I hold my position because of lack of evidence to the contrary, you hold yours based on the word of people you believe are eminent In the field. I challenge your experts then. Can you name them so I can research myself?

So you're saying you have no evidence to support your position.

I don't want to drag people's names into an online argument, but the UKA video posted earlier about youth physical development seems to match this article
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Fulltext/2012/06000/The_Youth_Physical_Development_Model___A_New.8.aspx

Rhodri S. Lloyd is the program director for the Sport Strength and Conditioning degrees at the University of Gloucestershire.
Jon L. Oliver is a lecturer in Sport and Exercise Physiology at Cardiff Metropolitan University.

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

So you're saying you have no evidence to support your position.

I don't want to drag people's names into an online argument, but the UKA video posted earlier about youth physical development seems to match this article
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Fulltext/2012/06000/The_Youth_Physical_Development_Model___A_New.8.aspx

I can assure you if you bring Jon Oliver and Rhodri Lloyd into this, it will not support your viewpoint.

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

If they're 11 years old, and they've done all the bodyweight training possible so that you have no choice but to introduce weights for progression, they must be spending a lot of time in the gym

From U6-U10, we have 60minutes contact a week which is split into 2 30minute sessions. One will be some form of multimove sessions, which usually is an obstacle course that involves lots of different elements incl. jumping/landing, balance/proprioception, hanging, climbing, crawling etc. The second 30min is a different sport of some kind, so far we have had martial arts, basketball, rock climbing, rugby and various athletics.

At U11-14, we have a 30min gym based session and 60 minutes of pitch based work spread across 3 days. We also have the option of doing additional work with either early developers or those who we feel would benefit from additional work in general. For example, we have a 12 year that can back-squat 60kg for 5 reps with no difficulty.

At U15/16, we 2 30min gym sessions and 90 minutes pitch work across 5 days and additional time for players we see would benefit from it.

I have yet to see a load related growth plate injury on any kind in any of organisations I've worked for. The only growth-plate injury I have seen is a Salter-Harris type 2 fracture which was a contact injury.

What seems excessive to you here??

ronnie085

cc87 wrote: »

RayCun wrote: »

So you're saying you have no evidence to support your position.

I don't want to drag people's names into an online argument, but the UKA video posted earlier about youth physical development seems to match this article
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Fulltext/2012/06000/The_Youth_Physical_Development_Model___A_New.8.aspx

I can assure you if you bring Jon Oliver and Rhodri Lloyd into this, it will not support your viewpoint.

How so? The only evidence I've seen in this thread is that video posted and raycun who has actually done some coaching courses, both supporting bodyweight training. Everybody else is just shouting down with no facts. Myself I'd rather be conservative with anything to do with children's development, is there need for anything more than bodyweight training for any sports at that age, probably not, plus the vast majority of kids just involved in sports for the fun, why take the risk, however small of causing harm.

cc87

ronnie085 wrote: »

How so? The only evidence I've seen in this thread is that video posted and raycun who has actually done some coaching courses, both supporting bodyweight training. Everybody else is just shouting down with no facts. Myself I'd rather be conservative with anything to do with children's development, is there need for anything more than bodyweight training for any sports at that age, probably not, plus the vast majority of kids just involved in sports for the fun, why take the risk, however small of causing harm.

Because I am very aware of their opinions, their work and, more than likely, far more aware of their research than RayCun is.

Completing coaching courses, gaining qualifications etc, is just a starting place.

Another good video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6UyH72Hxs

Doesn't seem to be working
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a6UyH72Hxs

ronnie085

cc87 wrote: »

ronnie085 wrote: »

How so? The only evidence I've seen in this thread is that video posted and raycun who has actually done some coaching courses, both supporting bodyweight training. Everybody else is just shouting down with no facts. Myself I'd rather be conservative with anything to do with children's development, is there need for anything more than bodyweight training for any sports at that age, probably not, plus the vast majority of kids just involved in sports for the fun, why take the risk, however small of causing harm.

Because I am very aware of their opinions, their work and, more than likely, far more aware of their research than RayCun is.

Completing coaching courses, gaining qualifications etc, is just a starting place.

Another good video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6UyH72Hxs

Doesn't seem to be working
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a6UyH72Hxs

I don't know anything about them, apart from a quick Google, CVS look fairly impressive, only half the story I know. General rule though, just because you don't agree with somebody's research and opinion doesn't make it wrong. Video looks interesting,will have a proper look later

Mellor

RayCun wrote: »

Experts, what do they know? :rolleyes:

Do you think Athletics Ireland (and UK Athletics, who produced the video posted earlier) are not interested in making athletes the best they can possibly be?

The first coach to tell me this was a throwing coach. Shot putters spend a lot of time in the gym, it's a power-based event. But he was very clear, bodyweight training is plenty until they are older.

I've heard the same thing from people with recent degrees, who work as physiotherapists and strength and conditioning coaches. This is not all old wives tales.

Safefood is also a panel of "experts". I suppose you agree with their archaic advice too. :rolleyes:

Athletics is made up of specific disciplines. It's hardly surprising that the best way to improve a specific discipline is actually do it. That would apply to a lot if sports. The fact it's may not be optimal for athletics doesn't mean it's inherently bad.

Are you familiar with Dan John. A renowned throwing coach. He has written extensively about the benefits of weight training for school children. I'd imagine he has the results to back it up.

I've heard it from lots of people. But I've seen little actual evidence to back it up. That's surprising for something that's so widely known.

Mellor

ronnie085 wrote: »

General rule though, just because you don't agree with somebody's research and opinion doesn't make it wrong.

I don't think cc87 was dismissing their research and opinion but rather pointing out that their research contradicts rather than backs up what Ray was saying.
At least that's how I read it.

A quick google of Rhodri S Lloyd and Jon Olivier turns up the following paper.

Position statement on youth resistance training: the 2014 International Consensus wrote:

From a public health perspective, it is noteworthy that traditional fears and misinformed concerns that resistance training would be harmful to the developing skeleton have been replaced by reports indicating that childhood may be the opportune time to build bone mass and enhance bone structure by participating in weight-bearing physical activities.
Fears that resistance training would injure the growth plates of youths are not supported by scientific reports or clinical observations, which indicate that the mechanical stress placed on the developing growth plates from resistance exercise, or high strain eliciting sports such as gymnastics or weightlifting, may be beneficial for bone formation and growth.

RayCun

Mellor wrote: »

I don't think cc87 was dismissing their research and opinion but rather pointing out that their research contradicts rather than backs up what Ray was saying.
At least that's how I read it.

A quick google of Rhodri S Lloyd and Jon Olivier turns up the following paper.

But if you look at the article I posted earlier, you see they distinguish between Strength, Hypertrophy, and Power.
Strength training is bodyweight resistance

Consequently, within the YPD model, it is suggested in terms of resistance training that a focus should be geared toward strength development before adolescence, and after the adolescent spurt, strength training should be interspersed with bouts of hypertrophy training to make further gains in muscular strength and overall performance.

The ability to generate high levels of power is essential for sporting success (119); however, power is omitted from the current LTAD model (7). Vertical jump height is an indirect measure of muscular power, and owing to its simplicity, most developmental literature has used the test modality to assess pediatric lower limb muscular power (50,55).The YPD model shows that the key period of power development starts at the onset of adolescence and continues throughout adulthood, largely because of rapid improvements in muscle power during adolescence being attributed to maturational influences (15). However, although power development is emphasized primarily after the onset of puberty, the YPD model does suggest that some training focus should also be given to developing power during the prepubertal phase.

AnneFrank

I've had my kids swimming since they were young, and they started lessons in the gym i went to.
They are like fish now, i bring them on lots of hikes too.
On the other points above, i'd rather my kids doing resistance training than playing rugby