fitness for kids

RayCun

Mellor wrote: »

Athletics is made up of specific disciplines. It's hardly surprising that the best way to improve a specific discipline is actually do it. That would apply to a lot if sports. The fact it's may not be optimal for athletics doesn't mean it's inherently bad.

The Long Term Athlete Development model is not specific to athletics, it's common to all? most? sports.

Mellor wrote: »

Are you familiar with Dan John. A renowned throwing coach. He has written extensively about the benefits of weight training for school children. I'd imagine he has the results to back it up.

and what are his qualifications?

an online religious studies instructor for Columbia College of Missouri. As a Fulbright Scholar, he toured the Middle East exploring the foundations of religious education systems

... I see

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

But if you look at the article I posted earlier, you see they distinguish between Strength, Hypertrophy, and Power.
Strength training is bodyweight resistance

Strength training is only bodyweight up until bodyweight alone no longer provides sufficient stimulus for strength development.

They distinguish between strength, hypertrophy and power because they are different types of training. Strength is not bodyweight alone.

RayCun

cc87 wrote: »

At U11-14, we have a 30min gym based session and 60 minutes of pitch based work spread across 3 days.

We do an hour a week (less with warm-up and cooldown) of circuit training at this age. We haven't begun to reach the limits of what can be done with bodyweight work

cc87 wrote: »

For example, we have a 12 year that can back-squat 60kg for 5 reps with no difficulty.
....
What seems excessive to you here??

this

May I ask, have you studied youth coaching, or are you applying what you've learned from coaching adults? If you have studied youth coaching, has the LTAD model ever come up?

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

The Long Term Athlete Development model is not specific to athletics, it's common to all? most? sports.



and what are his qualifications?

... I see

Be as selective as you wish when looking at Dan Johns background but there are only a handful of people in Ireland with his level of experience and knowledge and arguably none with his level of recognition worldwide as an S&C coach.

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

We do an hour a week (less with warm-up and cooldown) of circuit training at this age. We haven't begun to reach the limits of what can be done with bodyweight work



this

May I ask, have you studied youth coaching, or are you applying what you've learned from coaching adults? If you have studied youth coaching, has the LTAD model ever come up?

Degree in sport science. Masters in S&C. UKSCA/NSCA/BASES accredited.
Have been working full-time in academy settings for 5 years. Spent a number of years before that shadowing/interning/assisting various youth development programs.
Presented/lectured/consultant to a number of organisations/governing bodies/universities on the topic of youth athletic development.

Just because you haven't reached the limits of bodyweight with your group doesn't mean I haven't with mine. As I said before, how can I develop strength in a 12 year with a 60KG squat through bodyweight alone? Bear in mind, his 60KG squat was through natural development only. He walked into gym and did it after only a few weeks contact.

Wood

RayCun wrote: »

and what are his qualifications?

He is a highly respected Coach around the world and his background is in track and field so you should probably listen to what he has to say. Obviously make up your own mind, but don't let his religious views impede your choice to read his stuff


Dan John has been teaching and coaching for well over thirty years. He is the former Strength Coach and Head Track and Field Coach at Juan Diego Catholic High School in Draper, Utah.

In addition, Dan writes articles for a variety of strength magazines and publishes a little newsletter called Get Up, which registers up to a quarter of a million hits a month. You can also read his work at magazines like Men’s Health and Outside and his busy forum at Dave Draper. If you sneak over the border into Utah and want to work out, give him a shout.

In his athletic career, among many other championships and records, Dan has won the Master Pleasanton Highland Games twice, American Masters Discus Championships several times, the National Masters Weightlifting Championship once and holds the American Record in the Weight Pentathlon.

RayCun

cc87 wrote: »

Just because you haven't reached the limits of bodyweight with your group doesn't mean I haven't with mine. As I said before, how can I develop strength in a 12 year with a 60KG squat through bodyweight alone?

By working on exercises that work other muscles, and in other contexts. Flexibility, agility, explosive speed, balance - all things that can be worked on before you think "how much can this kid squat?"

RayCun

Wood wrote: »

He is a highly respected Coach around the world and his background is in track and field so you should probably listen to what he has to say. Obviously make up your own mind, but don't let his religious views impede your choice to read his stuff

It's not his religious views, but I was wondering about his qualifications.

cc87

RayCun wrote: »

By working on exercises that work other muscles, and in other contexts. Flexibility, agility, explosive speed, balance - all things that can be worked on before you think "how much can this kid squat?"

All those aspects are worked on at different times throughout his week. I would say they are worked on more than strength generally as well.

Mars Bar

A guy I know specifically coaches youths and he wrote a bit about this recently as it's the most common question he gets asked.

http://www.sw-eliteperformancecoaching.com/blog/weight_training_stunts_growth

Mellor

RayCun wrote: »

But if you look at the article I posted earlier, you see they distinguish between Strength, Hypertrophy, and Power.
Strength training is bodyweight resistance

Weight training is also strength training. You know that, right?

Bodyweight training can also hypertrophy or power based.



As for the Dan John comment. Yes he's a religious studies academic. Are you trying to undermine his coaching credentials/ability? Or had you genuinely never heard of him?

RayCun

Mellor wrote: »

As for the Dan John comment. Yes he's a religious studies academic. Are you trying to undermine his coaching credentials/ability? Or had you genuinely never heard of him?

Just pointing out that he doesn't appear to have either academic or coaching credentials at a particularly high level. Why is he someone important to listen to when it comes to youth coaching?

(and no, I'd never heard of him)

Mellor

RayCun wrote: »

Just pointing out that he doesn't appear to have either academic or coaching credentials at a particularly high level. Why is he someone important to listen to when it comes to youth coaching?

(and no, I'd never heard of him)

He may not have formal qualifications (or he may, I don't actually know). But he certainly has coaching credentials. He's a highly renowned strength and throwing coach. I mentioned him as you brought up a nameless "throwing coach".

But if you want strictly academic qualifications. I've already posted the extract from the two experts that you chose, Lloyd and Olivier, that directly refutes your claims about growth plate damage.

RayCun

Mellor wrote: »

He may not have formal qualifications (or he may, I don't actually know). But he certainly has coaching credentials. He's a highly renowned strength and throwing coach. I mentioned him as you brought up a nameless "throwing coach".

just from his website, he appears to be renowned in the "sells popular books" sense, not the "works with Olympic athletes" sense or the "groundbreaking research" sense

Mellor wrote: »

But if you want strictly academic qualifications. I've already posted the extract from the two experts that you chose, Lloyd and Olivier, that directly refutes your claims about growth plate damage.

the two experts who also said that training for hypertrophy and power, rather than strength, should be delayed until after PGV.

dar100

Brian? wrote: »

I am sorry, but that's a complete myth. There is nothing wrong with kids doing resistance training at all.

My kids are in gymnastics and do all sorts of bodyweight exercises that are no different than lifting weights. Resistance training is resistance training.

I think we both know it's not a myth, critical appraisal of research is required, not I know this coach and because he is a good trainer he's word is gospel!!

Mellor

RayCun wrote: »

the two experts who also said that training for hypertrophy and power, rather than strength, should be delayed until after PGV.

I don't think anybody as suggested otherwise?

It really sounds like you've twice suggested that bodyweight training is the only form of weight training. Which you know is not true.

To be clear, the two experts that you suggested were leading the field, Olivier and Lloyd, actually recommend resistance training for kids. If you are saying they mean only strength training, that's fine. In that report that clearly include weight lifting as resistance based strength training. They categorically state that the concerns about damage to growth plates are misguided - which was a specific concern you had.

Fears that resistance training would injure the growth plates of youths are not supported by scientific reports or clinical observations, which indicate that the mechanical stress placed on the developing growth plates from resistance exercise, or high strain eliciting sports such as gymnastics or weightlifting, may be beneficial for bone formation and growth.

dar100 wrote: »

I think we both know it's not a myth, critical appraisal of research is required, not I know this coach and because he is a good trainer he's word is gospel!!

Eh?
So far the only research posted in the thread, has been in favour of resistance training. The entire argument against it was basically a throwing coach said so. Also a person with a degree, and a physio.
Using your own reasoning, that's all worthless. Critical appraisal of research is required