What to do

Specialun

Hi

Advise needed on this

So myself and herself have been renting a house for just shy of 6 years. Tonight the landlord rang to tell us that his wife is looking for the property to give to her brother for a year as his planning is delayed. The rental contract expired ages ago. We always had a good relationship and looked after the property like it was our own home

What rights do we have.

We have my dogs and property is non existent in cork.
We will struggle to find elsewhere. I dont want to be walked on by the landlord.we have been the perfect tenats.

Advise please

4ensic15

You have the right to be given a valid notice of termination. The notice must state a valid reason. You have the right to challenge the notice to the RTB and the tenancy continues during the dispute.
You have not yet been given a valid notice so you can hang on until the landlord serves the notice. Then decide on a dispute.

cython

If you are just shy of 6 years (i.e. between 5 and 6) then your only real rights are to be given 20 weeks notice (in the correct format), as a landlord can terminate a tenancy if they need it for the use of an immediate family member. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html#la1b6d is the specific reference for that, but that page as a whole sums up the landlord's obligation to you in ending a tenancy, including the circumstances in which they are allowed to end it.

April 73

Honestly if I were you, I would insist on the legal requirement of offical notification in writing with correct notice & say to the landlord that you'll want first refusal on the getting property back if the brother fails to move in, which you will check.
Call me a cynic but it smells of wanting to get you out.

4ensic15

April 73 wrote: »

Honestly if I were you I would request offical notification in writing & say to the landlord that you'll want first refusal on the getting property back if the brother fails to move in, which you will check.
Call me a cynic but it smells of wanting to get you out.

Why ask for official notification? the o/p can just wait for it. That will prolong his stay. By the time the RTB disputes are finished the "brother" will have his planning and built his house and be on the second extension.

Specialun

April 73 wrote: »

Honestly if I were you, I would insist on the legal requirement of offical notification in writing with correct notice & say to the landlord that you'll want first refusal on the getting property back if the brother fails to move in, which you will check.
Call me a cynic but it smells of wanting to get you out.

100% its not wanting us out. It would make no sense. We have rang him twice in 6 years. We pay whatever the value is and on time. We have the house in perfect nick.

April 73

4ensic15 wrote: »

Why ask for official notification? the o/p can just wait for it. That will prolong his stay. By the time the RTB disputes are finished the "brother" will have his planning and built his house and be on the second extension.

Yep you're right. Do nothing & sit tight for now. If the OP doesn't make it easy I would imagine "the brother" will go AWOL.
But...it's not a great way to feel secure in the the house.

listermint

Specialun wrote: »

100% its not wanting us out. It would make no sense. We have rang him twice in 6 years. We pay whatever the value is and on time. We have the house in perfect nick.

Well its up to the landlord to give you statutory in writing.

Your concern is not for his brother its for yourself.

The brother could rent like anyone else should he need somewhere to live.

Wait till landlord serves the notice and go by the books look after yourself but do so as per your legal rights.

Specialun

4ensic15 wrote: »

Why ask for official notification? the o/p can just wait for it. That will prolong his stay. By the time the RTB disputes are finished the "brother" will have his planning and built his house and be on the second extension.

IF and thats an IF how would i do this or what is the procedure. Does the clock start ticking when i get the notice or only when the RTB give their verdict

April 73

Specialun wrote: »

100% its not wanting us out. It would make no sense. We have rang him twice in 6 years. We pay whatever the value is and on time. We have the house in perfect nick.

Are you paying the current market rate for the area at the moment? If you are it makes it less likely the story is a spoof. If you are paying below the market rate I would be dubious.

Specialun

April 73 wrote: »

Are you paying the current market rate for the area at the moment? If you are it makes it less likely the story is a spoof. If you are paying below the market rate I would be dubious.

Probably slightly below the value, simply because his not asked. The very second he would ask i would accept it and just look for a 12 month contract with a freeze. After he called i rang him back and offered him tne exact same as the house behind...as i said earlier im 100% fair on these things

April 73

Specialun wrote: »

Probably slightly below the value, simply because his not asked. The very second he would ask i would accept it and just look for a 12 month contract with a freeze. After he called i rang him back and offered him tne exact same as the house behind...as i said earlier im 100% fair on these things

Just so you know if you pay an increase in rent (outside the rental pressure zones) the rent is frozen for two years. Within the pressure zones rents can only be raised by 4%.

Maybe this landlord is legit & really does want a good, hassle-free tenant who is willing to pay more rent to move out. So the wife's brother can move in for a while. I just don't think so.

OP try waiting for offical notification & the. Weigh up your opinions on disputing he notification.

Specialun

What would the process with the rtb be if i appealed..would the 140 days start ticking when the notice drops or when the rtb give the verdict

GGTrek

4ensic15 wrote: »

April 73 wrote: »

Honestly if I were you I would request offical notification in writing & say to the landlord that you'll want first refusal on the getting property back if the brother fails to move in, which you will check.
Call me a cynic but it smells of wanting to get you out.

Why ask for official notification? the o/p can just wait for it. That will prolong his stay. By the time the RTB disputes are finished the "brother" will have his planning and built his house and be on the second extension.

By the time the RTB process is finished and notice confirmed valid the tenant will loose his place anyway and the landlord will highly resent the tenant due to all the additional costs and stress. Then I see tenants here complaining on why the rents are so high. Part of it is to cover the costs of overholding tenants and RTB litigation. Until the law starts to provide damages for landlords for valid termination notices this abuse will continue. If the RTB finds the notice valid then every day of staying beyond the termination date should be paid at least 20% more than current rent. This will focus the minds of the tenants and reduce substantially spurious litigation and appeals like the one you are suggesting.

GGTrek

Specialun wrote: »

What would the process with the rtb be if i appealed..would the 140 days start ticking when the notice drops or when the rtb give the verdict

When the notice drops.

Graham

Specialun wrote: »

What would the process with the rtb be if i appealed..would the 140 days start ticking when the notice drops or when the rtb give the verdict

On what basis would you be appealing?

April 73

GGTrek wrote: »

By the time the RTB process is finished and notice confirmed valid the tenant will loose his place anyway and the landlord will highly resent the tenant due to all the additional costs and stress. Then I see tenants here complaining on why the rents are so high. Part of it is to cover the costs of overholding tenants and RTB litigation. Until the law starts to provide damages for landlords for valid termination notices this abuse will continue. If the RTB finds the notice valid then every day of staying beyond the termination date should be paid at least 20% more than current rent. This will focus the minds of the tenants and reduce substantially spurious litigation and appeals like the one you are suggesting.

It doesn't sound to me like the OP is interested in overholding or being difficult.
They should receive the correct notification and notice period & not just a phone call. If the brother doesn't move in then they've been evicted illegally.

In the main I agree that tenants are better covered by protective laws than landlords & vexatious claims or appeals to the RTB should be discouraged.

Jawgap

GGTrek wrote: »

By the time the RTB process is finished and notice confirmed valid the tenant will loose his place anyway and the landlord will highly resent the tenant due to all the additional costs and stress. Then I see tenants here complaining on why the rents are so high. Part of it is to cover the costs of overholding tenants and RTB litigation. Until the law starts to provide damages for landlords for valid termination notices this abuse will continue. If the RTB finds the notice valid then every day of staying beyond the termination date should be paid at least 20% more than current rent. This will focus the minds of the tenants and reduce substantially spurious litigation and appeals like the one you are suggesting.

How is there a cost to the landlord in this particular instance?

Sounds like the OP is willing to pay rent at or close to the market rate?

If anything losing such a tenant in favour of the wife's brother will probably cost the landlord more as there's a significant probability he won't be paying market rent.

Graces7

Small question. If I know landlord is planning to evict, do I then need to give him notice of leaving? ie before he serves his paperwork?

Or does the verbally expressed notice of intention cover that?

4ensic15

GGTrek wrote: »

By the time the RTB process is finished and notice confirmed valid the tenant will loose his place anyway and the landlord will highly resent the tenant due to all the additional costs and stress. Then I see tenants here complaining on why the rents are so high. Part of it is to cover the costs of overholding tenants and RTB litigation. Until the law starts to provide damages for landlords for valid termination notices this abuse will continue. If the RTB finds the notice valid then every day of staying beyond the termination date should be paid at least 20% more than current rent. This will focus the minds of the tenants and reduce substantially spurious litigation and appeals like the one you are suggesting.

The relationship with the landlord is over. Why should a tenant move out just so the landlord doesn't resent him? The tenant incurs no costs. I am advising the o/p not making a morality judgement. There is a big difference between what is and what ought to be.

4ensic15

Graces7 wrote: »

Small question. If I know landlord is planning to evict, do I then need to give him notice of leaving? ie before he serves his paperwork?

Or does the verbally expressed notice of intention cover that?

Notice of termination must be in writing. If you are leaving voluntarily ahead of a proposed termination, then in theory, you should serve written notice or agree a timeframe in writing for your departure. You don't have to move until you have been served validly in writing and your dispute with the RTB is over.

Specialun

I didnt even consider not paying rent IF i was to appeal it to the RTB to be honest.

GGTrek

Jawgap wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

By the time the RTB process is finished and notice confirmed valid the tenant will loose his place anyway and the landlord will highly resent the tenant due to all the additional costs and stress. Then I see tenants here complaining on why the rents are so high. Part of it is to cover the costs of overholding tenants and RTB litigation. Until the law starts to provide damages for landlords for valid termination notices this abuse will continue. If the RTB finds the notice valid then every day of staying beyond the termination date should be paid at least 20% more than current rent. This will focus the minds of the tenants and reduce substantially spurious litigation and appeals like the one you are suggesting.

How is there a cost to the landlord in this particular instance?

Sounds like the OP is willing to pay rent at or close to the market rate?

If anything losing such a tenant in favour of the wife's brother will probably cost the landlord more as there's a significant probability he won't be paying market rent.

You are obviously very unaware of how much time and money it costs a landlord to defend a case at the RTB which by rule will not grant costs. Agent will require payment to spend half a day going to and attending hearing. Witnesses will have to be paid reasonable costs for attending. If landlord is unable to prepare a defence submission he will have to pay either an experienced agent or a solicitor to prepare it. If the tenant then decides to appeal the costs escalate since the tribunal is a much more formal hearing and it is advisable to have a solicitor attending.
In this specific case if the landlord brother cannot use the property as his residence he will incur renting costs, family dealings by the way go beyond mere money matters. In a decent family people try to help each other without expecting a financial return, but I am digressing here.

GGTrek

4ensic15 wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

By the time the RTB process is finished and notice confirmed valid the tenant will loose his place anyway and the landlord will highly resent the tenant due to all the additional costs and stress. Then I see tenants here complaining on why the rents are so high. Part of it is to cover the costs of overholding tenants and RTB litigation. Until the law starts to provide damages for landlords for valid termination notices this abuse will continue. If the RTB finds the notice valid then every day of staying beyond the termination date should be paid at least 20% more than current rent. This will focus the minds of the tenants and reduce substantially spurious litigation and appeals like the one you are suggesting.

The relationship with the landlord is over. Why should a tenant move out just so the landlord doesn't resent him? The tenant incurs no costs. I am advising the o/p not making a morality judgement. There is a big difference between what is and what ought to be.

The only risk the tenant runs is that he will not get a reference. The RTA is so wonderfully pro tenant biased that the vast majority of the costs of a spurious litigation like the one you are suggesting just to delay the inevitable will be on the landlord side. You know perfectly well that this is the case: if the landlord's brother goes to testify as a witness at the hearing the op case is dust, but the aim of delaying will be achieved without paying any penalty.

Specialun

lets say I appeal and after all the process the RTB says that all is legit. How long would they give us then to move

4ensic15

Specialun wrote: »

lets say I appeal and after all the process the RTB says that all is legit. How long would they give us then to move

usually 28 days. However if you don't move the landlord has to either apply to the Circuit Court or wait for the RTB to so. That will add to the time, so there will be plenty of time to source alternative accommodation.

4ensic15

GGTrek wrote: »

The only risk the tenant runs is that he will not get a reference. The RTA is so wonderfully pro tenant biased that the vast majority of the costs of a spurious litigation like the one you are suggesting just to delay the inevitable will be on the landlord side. You know perfectly well that this is the case: if the landlord's brother goes to testify as a witness at the hearing the op case is dust, but the aim of delaying will be achieved without paying any penalty.

The landlord might well make a mistake in his notice and the landlord will have to start again. The o/p will be able to stay where he is and will only be oblige to pay current rent with possibly only a small increase while the dispute goes on. that is the way the game is played.

Graham

Specialun wrote: »

lets say I appeal and after all the process the RTB says that all is legit. How long would they give us then to move

What are you appealing?

You generally need a reason for lodging an appeal, e.g. the notice is invalid

pilly

I have to say, I know this is a tough situation but if the LL gives proper notice etc. on what basis will you appeal? Are LL's never allowed to take their property back?

4ensic15

Graham wrote: »

What are you appealing?

You generally need a reason for lodging an appeal, e.g. the notice is invalid

The o/p would refer a dispute on the basis of an invalid notice or wait for the landlord to proceed against him for overholding and then appeal any decision in the landlords favour. .

4ensic15

pilly wrote: »

I have to say, I know this is a tough situation but if the LL gives proper notice etc. on what basis will you appeal? Are LL's never allowed to take their property back?

How is it known that the notice is proper until it has been determined to be so by the RTB? LLs are allowed take back the property after they serve a valid notice and after all disputes and appeals and court processes are finished.