Calor - no choice in domestic bulk LPG supply cost. Lets change that. !

eddie

Hi

I have has issues with Calor in the republic of Ireland with their monopoly of supply to their tank and the recent price increases. With a holiday home I was offered a very good rate but now there are increasing it dramatically and I have no choice.

This classic “bait and switch “ technique means that I am stuck with what ever increases they would like to impose on me.. a complete abuse of a monopoly position Since a ruling i the UK in 2009 by the Competition Commission , the domestic bulk gas companies MUST allow other LPG suppliers to fill all tanks. So you can shop around and get the best LPG price in fact many new companies were created offering just that service. If this is possible in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK and presumably all of Europe., why are we being held to ransom.?

I requested discussions with Oliver Kenny sales Director and was ignored, I talked to some staff and had offers and promises to get back to be and then promptly ignored. So my intention is to contact whatever powers that need to me contacted from energy to competition at and Irish and if necessary EU level to get this changed so that we have the same choice of supply for domestic bulk gas as the rest of this island and the UK has.

How YOU can help is PM me here or email me at traxcorp@yahoo.co.uk and advise if you would be interested in emailing materials to email addresses that I will supply to let the appropriate ministers know that it is not just one person making a complaint but a number and either wat they will HAVE to investigate and them we can make it public. This monopoly CAN and WILL change, I am going to do it, single handed if I must, but YOU can be part of this campaign. See also their Facebook page.

For some background information see :

https://www.calor.co.uk/home-energy/switching-lpg-supplier http://www.uklpg.org/advice-and-information/how-to-switch-lpg-supplier/ https://www.flogasni.com/residential/lpg/lpg-home-switch.html https://www.gov.uk/cma-cases/domestic-bulk-lpg-suppliers-unfair-contract-terms http://www.mylpg.eu/lpg-prices-across-europe If you have any information or links that I may be interested in please send to : by PM here


Obviously spread this campaign as far and wide as you can. The more people involved the better. YOU can help to make this happen and it WILL happen.


I gave Calor the choice to treat me like a customer but because I have no choice of supply as I have a Calor tank I am treated Calor with barely concealed contempt and downright arrogance. So with or without support of others that feel the same, I am going to get the laws changed so that Calor cannot prevent me from getting competetive quotes for bulk gas supply. The "bait and switch" tactic of issuing a low price initially and then progressivly increasing it, is disgusting and will be one of the main pillars of my argument.... I am going to change the face of domestic LPG bulk supply in the ROI to be the same as NI and the UK.. yu can be part of it if you wish --watch this space and have a nice day now.. Eddie

Spocker

eddie wrote: »

The "bait and switch" tactic of issuing a low price initially and then progressivly increasing it, is disgusting and will be one of the main pillars of my argument.... I am going to change the face of domestic LPG bulk supply in the ROI to be the same as NI and the UK..

I'm a metered Calor Gas customer, there is a shared tank in our estate, and I have to say I can't agree with this point - I've had decreases as well as increases

I've kept a copy of the notifications I've received over the years pertaining to price adjustments: since 2005 there has been 34 changes in the metered price, 20 of which were an increase, and the remaining 14 were decreases.

Cabaal

Hang on, so you've not even established if any such ruling exists across Europe?

With all due respect unless you do this then you make yourself look like a fool by siting a UK competition authority ruling. A UK ruling has zero authority in Ireland because we are a different country! This is basic stuff.

Do some research about European rulings and then perhaps you can start a more informed campaign. Until then you come across as a miss informed ranting customer

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Did they subsidise the initial tank in any way?

L1011

I'm removing your contact details - people can PM you if they wish.

Did you pay the full commercial cost of (and installation for) the equipment? This has been critical in similar cases.

There are competition rulings on small LPG tanks and also on access to branded ice cream fridges in Ireland you may want to read rather than assuming a UK ruling would be the same here. The ice cream case took 19 years in court.

eddie

While Icecream may or not be on everone's hierarchy of needs, heat and the ability to cook certainly is. They reason that UK experience is more relevent to us than the general EU experience is because we share the same laws and constitutional outlook in general.

I did not start or wish for a debate, I was stating a position and advising anyone that may be interested in participating. It is going to happen, no doubt, because it is simply set up to force consumers to rely on only one supplier for an essential product. It removes choice and eliminates competition. I am going to change that, if others want to join in , they would be welcome. It will not be the first "issue" I have changed against substantial odds and I don't tend to take on issues that I don't think I have a sporting chance of winning.


As a moderator on consumer issues I can totally understand that you need to make sure posts are within the rules but but I am quite surprised that you you would seek to comment and or make your own points on the issue, especially as you have the "power" without discussion. to remove contact information etc etc if you wnated to if say,the argument being put forward does not agree with you point of view - I cant see how you can be an attorney in the debate as well as being the judge.

As for the other comments on the differences with UK law/rules and ours, I suggest that someone needs do more research...

magentis

Did you pay the full cost of the tank and installation costs?

L1011

eddie wrote: »

While Icecream may or not be on everone's hierarchy of needs, heat and the ability to cook certainly is. They reason that UK experience is more relevent to us than the general EU experience is because we share the same laws and constitutional outlook in general.

Its an extremely relevant, Irish bit of case law in relation to competition and indeed containers for products and the competition aspects of it. It is going to be much more important than decisions made by the Competition Commission (which are not case law).

eddie wrote: »

As a moderator on consumer issues I can totally understand that you need to make sure posts are within the rules but but I am quite surprised that you you would seek to comment and or make your own points on the issue, especially as you have the "power" without discussion. to remove contact information etc etc if you wnated to if say,the argument being put forward does not agree with you point of view - I cant see how you can be an attorney in the debate as well as being the judge.

Moderation requires that moderators are an active part of the forum they are moderating.

Personal contact information in posts is against the overall rules of boards.ie. If you have issues with moderation, use the report function to alert another moderator (there is more than one for this forum, as well as category) mods rather than debating in thread - again, this is boards.ie wide rule.

eddie wrote: »

As for the other comments on the differences with UK law/rules and ours, I suggest that someone needs do more research...

I would suggest you elaborate on this, rather than accusing multiple posters of something unspecified so generally.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

You are rushing into quoting UK law and rules. Not relevant at all. Have you checked EU rulings? Or, as you contact address is uk based, are you UK based?

Did they subsidise the initial tank or installation??


The ice cream example is extremely relevant.

eddie

I see that you have asked this rather obvious question twice.

1) if you are going to debate, you may need to actually read what is said. I clearly said "supply to their tank" so the inference is that I do not own it and so must, like most other users be renting it from them. I also like most other users paid for the full installation of same.

2) IF I did actually own the tank..... then I could chose whatever supplier that I wanted as required.

For those that did not check it out first, the situation for instance in NI is that tanks are "nominally transferred " from each each LPG supplier as and when the customer changes supplier. They do not physically uninstall and re-install the tanks. It all works very well for all except the LPG suppliers which is why they would like to keep the ROI cash cow going ad infinitum

L1011

eddie wrote: »

I see that you have asked this rather obvious question twice.

1) if you are going to debate, you may need to actually read what is said. I clearly said "supply to their tank" so the inference is that I do not own it and so must, like most other users be renting it from them. I also like most other users paid for the full installation of same.

2) IF I did actually own the tank..... then I could chose whatever supplier that I wanted as required.

For those that did not check it out first, the situation for instance in NI is that tanks are "nominally transferred " from each each LPG supplier as and when the customer changes supplier. They do not physically uninstall and re-install the tanks. It all works very well for all except the LPG suppliers which is why they would like to keep the ROI cash cow going ad infinitum

It is not obvious from your original post that it was a subsidised install; hence the tone here isn't justified. You still haven't explained the comment about needing to do research.

The exchange of tanks is precisely what happens with portable LPG tanks here - there are indeed Competition Authority documents available about this. This is likely the most important thing to look in to rather than UK cases.


You do have the rather simple choice of purchasing your own equipment, though. In the case of the portable tanks this was never possible.

eddie

I can see for mile the point that you are hinting at and would suggest you look at insurance companies "knock for knock" settlement methods.. the tank "subsidy" would be treated the same way...

If you cannot see a trend how EIR had to relinquish their advantage on their own wired infrastructure, same with the ESB and the power lines and Bord Gais with their pipelines, and now Calor with their tanks… you should not be able monopolise power for heat and cooking that is why it will just have to change. It should and probably will be treated as in NI that the tanks are a “shared” infrastructure with open competition on pricing the product as with all of the above mentioned.

eddie

eddie wrote: »

I can see for mile the point that you are hinting at and would suggest you look at insurance companies "knock for knock" settlement methods.. the tank "subsidy" would be treated the same way...

If you cannot see a trend how EIR had to relinquish their advantage on their own wired infrastructure, same with the ESB and the power lines and Bord Gais with their pipelines, and now Calor with their tanks… you should not be able monopolise power for heat and cooking that is why it will just have to change. It should and probably will be treated as in NI that the tanks are a “shared” infrastructure with open competition on pricing the product as with all of the above mentioned.

I am stressing this would only apply to BULK domestic LPG...

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Their tank. Simple solution. Install your own tank.

Again, what happens on other jurisdictions counts for nothing.


I asked twice because it most certainly was NOT clear who paid for the tank.

eddie

L1011 wrote: »

It is not obvious from your original post that it was a subsidised install; hence the tone here isn't justified. You still haven't explained the comment about needing to do research.

" supply to their tank" is not obvious...!?/

The exchange of tanks is precisely what happens with portable LPG tanks here - there are indeed Competition Authority documents available about this. This is likely the most important thing to look in to rather than UK cases.


This ONLY applies to bulk domestic LPG.

You do have the rather simple choice of purchasing your own equipment, though. In the case of the portable tanks this was never possible.

You can buy portable tanks any amount, any size, I can quote you for them, if you PM me, however you may run into problems getting someone to fill them as most LPG suppliers insist on filling their own cylinders.

Do we really have to get bogged down in semantics.?

Do you have an interest in this or just like to argue about anything ?>

L1011

eddie wrote: »

I can see for mile the point that you are hinting at and would suggest you look at insurance companies "knock for knock" settlement methods.. the tank "subsidy" would be treated the same way...

If you cannot see a trend how EIR had to relinquish their advantage on their own wired infrastructure, same with the ESB and the power lines and Bord Gais with their pipelines, and now Calor with their tanks… you should not be able monopolise power for heat and cooking that is why it will just have to change. It should and probably will be treated as in NI that the tanks are a “shared” infrastructure with open competition on pricing the product as with all of the above mentioned.

I'm not hinting at anything. You have a significant struggle ahead of you to try claim any similarities to mainline utilities.

You can have the Calor provided tank removed and replaced with anyone elses; or your own - but you can't get replacement electricity or telecoms wiring put in. Additionally, those networks were built with state subsidy.

Your best chance of success does not come from constant reference to other countries but from looking at Irish examples and case law. The ECJ overturned the Masterfoods/Unilever decision - which relates to subsidised containers for products - but it took 19 years and vast sums of money; and we already have an established swaps system for portable versions of the same thing - LPG tanks.

The most likely outcome of any campaigning is going to be significantly longer initial contracts and buy-out prices offered for installed kit; not it being treated as open infrastructure.

eddie

Jon Tangy Letter wrote: »

Their tank. Simple solution. Install your own tank.

Again, what happens on other jurisdictions counts for nothing.


I asked twice because it most certainly was NOT clear who paid for the tank.

Nobody paid for it... as I clearly said "THEIR tank" Had I paid for it, I would not have the problem and would have said "My tank" and if I part paid for it would have said "our tank".

L1011

eddie wrote: »

You can buy portable tanks any amount, any size, I can quote you for them, if you PM me, however you may run into problems getting someone to fill them as most LPG suppliers insist on filling their own cylinders.

There is an established exchange system for LPG tanks. I have changed from Flo to Calor and back again based on who was actually in stock - they aren't that common in suburban areas.

If you supply tanks as you are suggesting there, you are not approaching this from a consumer issues basis - I can move this to business?

eddie wrote: »

Do we really have to get bogged down in semantics.?

There's a lot more than semantics being debated here. The entire basis and potential for success of your campaign is being debated at a high level.

eddie wrote: »

Do you have an interest in this or just like to argue about anything ?>

I'm aware of relevant case law and relevant competition authority material. It would be remiss of me to leave that unmentioned.

eddie wrote: »

Nobody paid for it... as I clearly said "THEIR tank" Had I paid for it, I would not have the problem and would have said "My tank" and if I part paid for it would have said "our tank".

It was in no way clear; neither would the idea of "my" or "our". Take a look at the Virgin Media forums and people using "my" for their Virgin owned receivers, for starters.

eddie

L1011 wrote: »

I'm not hinting at anything. You have a significant struggle ahead of you to try claim any similarities to mainline utilities.

You can have the Calor provided tank removed and replaced with anyone elses; or your own - but you can't get replacement electricity or telecoms wiring put in. Additionally, those networks were built with state subsidy.

Your best chance of success does not come from constant reference to other countries but from looking at Irish examples and case law. The ECJ overturned the Masterfoods/Unilever decision - which relates to subsidised containers for products - but it took 19 years and vast sums of money; and we already have an established swaps system for portable versions of the same thing - LPG tanks.

The most likely outcome of any campaigning is going to be significantly longer initial contracts and buy-out prices offered for installed kit; not it being treated as open infrastructure.

We can agree to differ so... I bow to your vast experience.

As I said I simply wanted to make people aware , here and in other forums what was going to happen and opportunity to take part.

eddie

L1011 wrote: »

It is not obvious from your original post that it was a subsidised install; hence the tone here isn't justified. You still haven't explained the comment about needing to do research.

The exchange of tanks is precisely what happens with portable LPG tanks here - there are indeed Competition Authority documents available about this. This is likely the most important thing to look in to rather than UK cases.


You do have the rather simple choice of purchasing your own equipment, though. In the case of the portable tanks this was never possible.

Also notice in original post FWIW I said "as I have a Calor tank " dum di dum...

L1011

eddie wrote: »

Also notice in original post FWIW I said "as I have a Calor tank " dum di dum...

That, still, does not even vaguely imply that it was provided free of charge. Its a brand name, not an implication of ownership.

You may note from the repeated questioning from multiple users that nobody found anything in your post to suggest it was free of charge.

You do not appear to be in any way open to actual discussion on this; and as this is a discussion forum not a public noticeboard I'm going to lock the thread.