Bust Éireann

markpb

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

Big question now is: is this going to spread to IE and DB?.

I though this was illegal?

WomanSkirtFan8

markpb wrote: »

I though this was illegal?

yes i think it might be (although i could be wrong.)

Thats one for all the legal eagles to sort out.:(

Brendan Bendar

markpb wrote: »

I though this was illegal?

So did I.

However one way or another I feel the Govt. needs to take a strong stand here.

The taxpayer has been mugged by the transport unions for long enough.

The alternative is of course to let the company collapse with massive job losses which nobody wants.

Time for strong action and steely determination.

Bass Reeves

Infini2 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0202/849635-bus-eireann/

All out strike if pay cuts implimented from the 20th.

A strike will only make the saving of BE harder. If it lasts too long the company could be put in receivership and wound up. Sell the buses and the drivers and the rest of the staff would get statuary redundancy. But if that is what they want so be it

Del.Monte

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

So did I.

However one way or another I feel the Govt. needs to take a strong stand here.

The taxpayer has been mugged by the transport unions for long enough.

The alternative is of course to let the company collapse with massive job losses which nobody wants.

Time for strong action and steely determination.

By whom - Shane Ross......:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Brendan Bendar

Del.Monte wrote: »

By whom - Shane Ross......:pac::pac::pac::pac:

I know Del.

Not likely.

Infini

markpb wrote: »

I though this was illegal?

Not if issues that could spill over from BE going to the wall and affect the other 2 negatively. The pensions scheme for starters.

Ross trying to stay out might not work this time either. The problem is BE drew up 3 plans in the last 3 years all rejected by his department. Thus the problems festered to the point of near insolvency. Thus he and his deparrment has a hand in exacerbating the issues.

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

Not if issues that could spill over from BE going to the wall and affect the other 2 negatively. The pensions scheme for starters.

Ross trying to stay out might not work this time either. The problem is BE drew up 3 plans in the last 3 years all rejected by his department. Thus the problems festered to the point of near insolvency. Thus he and his deparrment has a hand in exacerbating the issues.

You make it sound as if the unions would of accepted those 3 plans......

On a side note, sooner CIE is split up the better but it will never happen .

Jamie2k9

markpb wrote: »

I though this was illegal?

It would be, unions have always tried this tack tick.

Better for other company members to keep their noses out of the dispute, some had a pay rise and others are in the process of one.

Infini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It would be, unions have always tried this tack tick.

If the others company had members they would keep their noses out of the dispute, some had a pay rise and others are in the process of one.

Even if the unions were to involve the other 2 companies they would STILL need to ballot the staff first then serve noticd. Its not simple as calling in the lads.

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

Even if the unions were to involve the other 2 companies they would STILL need to ballot the staff first then serve noticd. Its not simple as calling in the lads.

Totally get that, it realistically won't happen and unless there is a legal reason it would be easy for DB/IE to get an injunction.

What will happen here is 3-4 days of strike (at most), union will then decide they have to accept some degree of cuts both get around the table. I couldn't see anything happening until after at least some strikes take place.

Infini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Totally get that, it realistically won't happen and unless there is a legal reason it would be easy for DB/IE to get an injunction.

What will happen here is 3-4 days of strike (at most), union will then decide they have to accept some degree of cuts both get around the table. I couldn't see anything happening until after at least some strikes take place.

It may or may not happen this time. Questions have to be asked about the whole operation and not simply about the management but the government too.

This supposedly is about the loss making routes on expresswat but it has quickly evolved into drastic pay cuts across the whole company with a now threatened all out strike as a result. At this point its turning more and more into an existential threat because the issue are being allowed to escalate. For all accounts BE shouldnt be a for profit company at all but constantly its about profits and loss.

Honestly the pay cuts need to be withdrawn as its basically a unilateral change in terms and conditions without agreement. That triggers an all out strike no matter what sector its in. Ross can hide all he wants but if it hits the fan he wont have any choice at that point his department has a hand in this too.

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

It may or may not happen this time. Questions have to be asked about the whole operation and not simply about the management but the government too.

This supposedly is about the loss making routes on expresswat but it has quickly evolved into drastic pay cuts across the whole company with a now threatened all out strike as a result. At this point its turning more and more into an existential threat because the issue are being allowed to escalate. For all accounts BE shouldnt be a for profit company at all but constantly its about profits and loss.

Honestly the pay cuts need to be withdrawn as its basically a unilateral change in terms and conditions without agreement. That triggers an all out strike no matter what sector its in. Ross can hide all he wants but if it hits the fan he wont have any choice at that point his department has a hand in this too.

Maybe the Goverment should give a "little" extra money however some expressway routes if they are heavily loss making must go and if that involves some jobs as well.

What's more shocking is how much drivers have been getting on top of basic pay in various overtime and so on (if unions clamins of % drops from cuts). I don't think they proposed cutting basic pay but in fact increase it by 2% (not following closely!). Some of the changes are part of previously agreed changes but never fully implemented according to management and they should of been fully implemented

Brendan Bendar

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Maybe the Goverment should give a "little" extra money however some expressway routes if they are heavily loss making must go and if that involves some jobs as well.

What's more shocking is how much drivers have been getting on top of basic pay in various overtime and so on (if unions clamins of % drops from cuts). I don't think they proposed cutting basic pay but in fact increase it by 2% (not following closely!). Some of the changes are part of previously agreed changes but never fully implemented according to management and they should of been fully implemented

Whole thing is rotten to the core with work practices no private company would tolerate.

Manufactured artificial overtime, abseentism, well above average sick leave.

Time to call these guys out and stop the rot.

Jamie2k9

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Whole thing is rotten to the core with work practices no private company would tolerate.

Manufactured artificial overtime, abseentism, well above average sick leave.

Time to call these guys out and stop the rot.

Indeed management and employees are responsible for a lot of the issues. The Goverment play a much smaller role with pass funding but could be argued IE should be getting extra cash for the scheme as well.

end of the road

markpb wrote: »

I though this was illegal?

it would be illegal for db or IE to go out in sympathy with bus eireann yes. however, if an issue arose that effected the 3 at the same time, then that would likely be perfectly legal.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You make it sound as if the unions would of accepted those 3 plans......

On a side note, sooner CIE is split up the better but it will never happen .

CIE was split up. bus eireann, dublin bus, and irish rail were once simply CIE.

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Whole thing is rotten to the core with work practices no private company would tolerate.

Manufactured artificial overtime, abseentism, well above average sick leave.

Time to call these guys out and stop the rot.

some private transport companies rely on overtime as well. for example on the uk railway where private companies run the services, overtime and even rest day working can be relied on, in some cases quite a lot. of course the staff benefit in return as they get paid but when it goes wrong it goes wrong. the abseentism and well above average sick leave that is supposibly happening in bus eireann are only claims.

Brendan Bendar

end of the road wrote: »

it would be illegal for db or IE to go out in sympathy with bus eireann yes. however, if an issue arose that effected the 3 at the same time, then that would likely be perfectly legal.



CIE was split up. bus eireann, dublin bus, and irish rail were once simply CIE.



some private transport companies rely on overtime as well. for example on the uk railway where private companies run the services, overtime and even rest day working can be relied on, in some cases quite a lot. of course the staff benefit in return as they get paid but when it goes wrong it goes wrong. the abseentism and well above average sick leave that is supposibly happening in bus eireann are only claims.

I dont think so

http://www.newsscoops.org/?p=2726

Infini

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I dont think so

http://www.newsscoops.org/?p=2726

Your link contains a daily fail article thus your argument is invalid!

Stephen15

end of the road wrote: »

CIE was split up. bus eireann, dublin bus, and irish rail were once simply CIE.

Since I was a bit before the time I could never understand why CIE was split up it always seemed like a bit a pointless change or was a goodles reason at the time

Del.Monte

Stephen15 wrote: »

Since I was a bit before the time I could never understand why CIE was split up it always seemed like a bit a pointless change or was a goodles reason at the time

It was an exercise in futility which resulted in three mini-CIEs and the original CIE remaining as the holding company. CIE has been an abject failure since it was nationalised in 1950 and has had the opposite effect to the Midas Touch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas on everything that it has been involved with - canals, railways, buses, ferry services to the islands, Shannon Cruises, furniture removals (believe it or not the company was a byword for excellence in this field) freight road and rail, heavy road haulage....The company passed its sell by date many, many years ago.

Normally when it comes to Dublin Bus or Irish Rail I'd be against privatising them or breaking them up. Not so with Bus Éireann, in fact I'd just let them go to the wall. Tender out the PSOs to someone else. The service I've experienced on Citylink and GoBus has been exceptional compared to Bus Éireann.

Back in 2010 and 2012 I had to take two pay cuts in my place of work because the company was in trouble (and ultimately failed). I wasn't happy with it but I understood why it was done. I definitely didn't go out on strike.

Jamie2k9

Karsini wrote: »

Normally when it comes to Dublin Bus or Irish Rail I'd be against privatising them or breaking them up. Not so with Bus Éireann, in fact I'd just let them go to the wall. Tender out the PSOs to someone else. The service I've experienced on Citylink and GoBus has been exceptional compared to Bus Éireann.

Back in 2010 and 2012 I had to take two pay cuts in my place of work because the company was in trouble (and ultimately failed). I wasn't happy with it but I understood why it was done. I definitely didn't go out on strike.

Irish Rail no, there would be no difference with DB in public or private ownership.

CIE was split up. bus eireann, dublin bus, and irish rail were once simply CIE.

CIE in it's current form today doesn't get my approval either. There needs to be a clean break for all 3 companies.

end of the road

Karsini wrote: »

Normally when it comes to Dublin Bus or Irish Rail I'd be against privatising them or breaking them up. Not so with Bus Éireann, in fact I'd just let them go to the wall. Tender out the PSOs to someone else.

there would be nothing to be gained. apart from the huge possibility of greater expence to the tax payer because the someone else is entitled to make money from even the most loss making of routes

Cookie_Monster

Stephen15 wrote: »

Since I was a bit before the time I could never understand why CIE was split up it always seemed like a bit a pointless change or was a goodles reason at the time

jobs for the boys. 3 management structures plus the holding company instead of just one. 3 IT and HR structures etc etc

For an organisation this it is there really is no reason for the sub companies. Ireland is not a big place to organise, especially since the NTA has come about and manages the whole routing side of things. CIE should have been disassembled when the NTA came into being at the very latest.

n97 mini

Bus and rail companies should be merged per geographical area imho. DB and DART/Commuter rail in Dublin should be managed by one company, that way there might be some chance of integration.

Same in Cork, BE city services and Cork commuter rail should be run by one Cork Transit Authority.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

there would be nothing to be gained. apart from the huge possibility of greater expence to the tax payer because the someone else is entitled to make money from even the most loss making of routes

And it is just as possible and likely that private operators will be able to deliver the same or better services for the same or less PSO money.

Yes, private operators will want to make a profit, same as BE is supposed to. But private operators don't have the same insane number of incredibly well paid managers, and executives. It seems to be an extremely top heavy company.

They would also likely to have a more sensible rates of overtime and absenteeism. And private operators are likely to make far more reasonable purchasing decisions about fleet purchases then BE and much less likely to waste money on expensive advertising campaigns like BE do!

Honestly I just don't see how more efficient private operators would end up costing more in PSO payments. Remember the NTA would be putting out the
PSO routes out for contract as fixed cost contracts. Various private companies would be bidding for these contracts. I don't see how that ends up costing us more.

loyatemu

I always assumed CIE had been split up in order to split the workforce and prevent all out strikes across the sector (this was the 80s after all). BE can go on strike later this month, but it's difficult for DB and IE unions to go out at the same time as would have been the case in the distant past.

bk

loyatemu wrote: »

I always assumed CIE had been split up in order to split the workforce and prevent all out strikes across the sector (this was the 80s after all). BE can go on strike later this month, but it's difficult for DB and IE unions to go out at the same time as would have been the case in the distant past.

Yes, that is my understanding too. Frankly CIE was far too powerful for it's own good and it was a pain in the ass for the government with them going on strike constantly.

And I believe the government feels that even the broken up companies are still a bit too big and powerful and work like to continue to weaken them.

That is why the government pulled the Luas design and planning out of Irish Rail where it originally started and created the RPA and eventually the NTA and were able to contract it out to a private company to run.

Now the Luas carries far more passengers daily then DART+Commuter Rail combined and it has helped weaken CIE companies power.

Private companies operating intercity bus routes and the farming out of PSO routes to private companies all help weaken the CIE companies too.

It means that sure, yes people can still go out on strike, but it ends up a lot less disruptive to the public and it doesn't end up becoming a national crisis with the Army being called out to bus people around! :rolleyes:

Infini

To be honest the old cie going on strike would of been due to an issue in one part of the company forcing everyone out even when there was no need for say rail to strike when the issue was a bus only problem.

The other thing about private vs public is that private operators have full control over their own affairs but with the cie companies they got legacy costs and agreements as well as being succeptable to outside political meddling.

devnull

Infini2 wrote: »

But with the cie companies they got legacy costs and agreements as well as being succeptable to outside political meddling.

They also have legacy benefits and infrastructure paid for by the state as well which they were given free of charge which other operators have to pay for.

For example if a private wants to put a bus stop in the city center they have to pay in some cases a high five to low six figure sum for infrastructure, bus stops and suchlike that BE don't need to.

This is said to be one of the reasons that GoBus didn't launch Dublin to Cork on their own - the infrastructure costs were said to be a six figure sum, by using BE facilities they bypassed this.