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Bust Éireann
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Bla bla bla !!!!??????
Is a person in this country now not allowed to earn a living wage, regardless of the work they do,
Please please tell me
People are allowed to earn anything from zero to millions. What's your point?
Why don't you answer my question? I'm not arguing with you, I've asked it in a few strike threads and no one has given me an answer0 -
Matthews are the competitor on the M1 route to Dublin from Dundalk (Drogheda, Laytown,) superb service with about 20 departures in both directions daily.
But they don't service the airport. In the 'early' days (10 years ago) they did but it 'delayed' their fast run to the city centre by 15/20 mins. They then came up with a convoluted route to the airport where they dropped you (on request) at the City North hotel and hotel mini bus made the airport run.
Needless to say anybody using the airport used the BE Expressway service.
I would hope that in the event of BE exiting the expressway service that the regulator would insist that private operators service the airport. Properly.
I would prefer BE expressway remained though.
You raise a valid point. I don't think private coaches would operate many of the services that are operated by Bus Éireann.
There are good services operated by private coach companies between Dublin and cities like Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Kilkenny and Galway, for example Aircoach between Dublin and Cork and Dublin and Belfast, Go Bus and City link between Dublin and Galway, Dublin Coach and JJ Kavanagh's between Limerick and Dublin and Kilkenny and Dublin, but they all have Dublin airport as a last stop.
The problem is, most of these services do not serve intermediate towns.
Some of the services, by City Link, Dublin Coach and JJ Kavanagh's that operate to Dublin City Centre and Dublin Airport, also serve intermediate towns. But I don't think these bus companies would serve these intermediate towns, if they didn't have Dublin Airport as a stop on the route.
The RTE 9pm news report on Monday night 20th February included an item about Collins Coaches that run services between towns like Ardee and Carrickmacross, and Dublin.
The item suggested that there might be an opportunity for companies like Collins Coaches to take over a route like the number 33 Derry/Dublin, Bus Éireann-Translink Ulster Bus service, if the Bus Éireann Expressway services were ended.
The number 33 Derry to Dublin - Dublin Airport Bus Éireann/Translink Ulster Bus service includes services from Derry Bus Station at 12am and 4.15am to Dublin and Dublin Airport which also serve intermediate towns.
I'm not sure that if any private operator took over this Dublin Derry route, that they would run a bus service at those late night/early morning times, to Dublin and Dublin Airport, which would also stop at intermediate towns.
The last Collins Coaches service from Dublin, from Monday to Saturday, is at 9pm, and 8.30pm on a Sunday (10.30pm on a Sunday from October to April).
I think 9pm is quite early to run a last service from Dublin to Carrickmacross, considering that Bus Éireann runs a number 32 service to Letterkenny from Bus Aras at 10.45pm that serves Ardee and Carrickmacross.
Many bus users of longer distance routes, for example the Derry to Dublin service, may not like stopping in intermediate towns, but people who live in the intermediate towns use the buses, and I think it would be a negative move, if a decision was taken by Bus Éireann, not to serve the intermediate towns.
I have taken Aircoach services from Belfast to Dublin, and on one recent Saturday on the 4.30pm service from Belfast to Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre, there was around five people on the bus.
Might they not get more people using their service if they ran at least some of their services through intermediate towns?
The Bus Éireann / Translink Ulsterbus service to and from Belfast and Dublin, will regularly pick up and drop off at Sprucefield, Banbridge and Newry - picking up on the way to Dublin from Belfast, and then drop off passengers on the way to Belfast after leaving Dublin Airport.
Bus Éireann operate extra buses at the airport to ensure extra passengers are accommodated, for example they'll put on an extra bus to cover passengers for Monaghan who may be waiting for either the Letterkenny 32 or Derry 33 buses. Also, Bus Éireann will make available an extra bus for Newry, at the airport, if the bus for Belfast is full, or very nearly full when it leaves Bus Aras.
It sounds to me that on these routes, it makes sense for Bus Éireann to serve intermediate towns.
People who want buses to serve only the place they are going, for example the places where the bus services that they use, start and terminate, don't seem to acknowledge, that other people in intermediate towns also use buses, when they are made available, and are convenient to them.
For example, the 109A last Friday night / Saturday morning, that left from Bus Aras at 3.25am, was full leaving Bus Aras, apart from one seat - there was only one free seat available when it arrived at Dublin airport. When it stopped at Ashbourne, many of the passengers got out, and then more at Dunshaughlin.
Yet, if there was someone standing in Navan or Kells, and saw the bus go by, after it had left Dunshaughlin, they might think far less people had used the bus, from Dublin City Centre and Dublin Airport to Kells.
The 24 hour 109A is a recent development, having started operating 24 hours since 31st July 2016, to and from Kells and Dublin, and the example of the Ashbourne stop on the 3.25am service last Friday night, indicates that people are using the service to and from intermediate towns, even if it may not always be that full, at other times.
I'm not sure if there was ever a service as late as that. from Dublin to Ashbourne before? The 109N on Friday and Saturday nights at 12.30am and 3.30am, does not serve Ashbourne. Ratoath would be the nearest you'd get to Ashbourne if you used the 109N
http://www.citylink.ie/timetables
http://www.gobus.ie/timetable.php
http://www.dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/dublin-coach-routes.php
http://www.collinscoaches.ie/images/collins_coaches_timetable_from_dublin_oct_2016.pdf
http://buseireann.ie/timetables/1470909505-33.pdf
http://buseireann.ie/timetables/1478276752-32.pdf
http://buseireann.ie/timetables/1473263565-109A.pdf
http://buseireann.ie/timetables/1466431582-109N.pdf
http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2017/0220/21133741-bus-eireann-issues-warning-about-its-worsening-finances/0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »I would say no one is really entitled to anything beyond their basic rights, the have to go and earn their wages.
Well I earn my wages every time I sit into my bus and drive for 9plus hours a day.
5am start, Monday morning,
2hours 35minutes unpaid break .during the day?/night unsociable hours0 -
Great stuff?
So can you tell me what private sector bus i take from Dublin city centre to roscrea that accept ftp. Please I mean from the city centre!!#!#
Not the red cow :-)
5kms away thanks0 -
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Bass Reeves wrote: »You can use the FTP on the LUAS to get you out there problem solved.
And you can get the Luas from any point on the Red Line, or at any point on any line after BXD, which is faster than getting the Dublin bus into Busaras and then BE out of the city.
So you're probably better off getting the Luas to Red Cow, then bus to wherever in fairness.
RE Matthews and the airport, I've been on numerous BE busses that stop at the airport going to and from the city centre. It's rare that anyone gets on or off the bus at these stops. So it's an extra 20 mins on the bus for little or no reason.
That's why Matthews started to bypass it. No gain.
It's the same with busses stopping at intermediate towns. 90% of the passengers want to get from Dublin to Cork as fast as possible and don't want a service that stops in every boreen on the way. Also there's no need for a bus to service a town 10 times a day if they only pick up 5 passengers a day. Unfortunately the 10% are left at a loose end, but I think minibusses or a less frequent service might be a feasable option for private service operators. It might be a good option to have a circular route. Head from Dublin to Cork through Athy Kilkenny Clonmel, then back to Dublin though Cashel Thurles and Portlaoise then reverse it on the next run. You give a half service to twice the locations for the same price.0 -
Great stuff?
So can you tell me what private sector bus i take from Dublin city centre to roscrea that accept ftp. Please I mean from the city centre!!#!#
Not the red cow :-)
5kms away thanksBass Reeves wrote: »You can use the FTP on the LUAS to get you out there problem solved.
The JJ Kavanagh's service that covers Roscrea, which starts at Dublin Airport, has a pick up point at the Ulster Bank on George's Quay. It also picks up at Heuston Station, as well as at The Red Cow Luas.
http://jjkavanagh.ie/timetable-detail-page?RouteNo=735&IsWeb=1&IsCollegeRoute=0&Direction=1&RGrp=Main0 -
horseburger wrote: »
The problem is, most of these services do not serve intermediate towns.
I have taken Aircoach services from Belfast to Dublin, and on one recent Saturday on the 4.30pm service from Belfast to Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre, there was around five people on the bus.
Might they not get more people using their service if they ran at least some of their services through intermediate towns?
The Bus Éireann Translink Ulsterbus service from Belfast to Dublin will regularly pick up and drop off passengers, at Sprucefield, Banbridge and Newry.
I think the Aircoach licence is pretty restrictive and perhaps the Translink one.
AFAIK Aircoach and Translink cannot pick up in the south If the journey commences in the north and vice versa. it's strictly cross border. Maybe Aircoach are not allowed any pickups at all.
I don't know how the Derry service operates.0 -
Bass Reeves wrote: »You can use the FTP on the LUAS to get you out there problem solved.
So I've to get a luas to the outside of dublin. Then get of and wait for a coach in the middle of nowhere and wait for a coach. Hardly you Muppet0 -
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I think the Aircoach licence is pretty restrictive and perhaps the Translink one.
AFAIK Aircoach and Translink cannot pick up in the south If the journey commences in the north and vice versa. it's strictly cross border. Maybe Aircoach are not allowed any pickups at all.
I don't know how the Derry service operates.
I think it is more the case that Aircoach has taken a decision to only serve Dublin Airport on its services to and from Dublin City Centre and Belfast City Centre, rather than it being a case of Aircoach not being permitted to serve any places in between Dubin Airport and Belfast.
The way the Belfast - Dublin Airport - Dublin City Centre, Bus Éireann / Translink Ulster Bus service operates is, that if you are going from Belfast to Dublin, you cannot get out in Sprucefield, Banbridge or Newry. They are not drop off points. They are only a pick up points, from Belfast to Dublin.
The first drop off point from Belfast to Dublin is at Dublin Airport.
If you are going from Dublin Bus Aras or from Dublin Airport to Belfast, the stops at Newry, Banbridge and Sprucefield are drop off points, and not pick up points.
When the Bus Éireann / Translink Ulster Bus, Dublin City Centre - Dublin Aiport - Belfast service used to serve Drogheda and Dundalk, when coming from Dublin to Belfast, Dundalk and Drogheda were just pick up points. Coming from Belfast to Dublin, Dundalk and Drogheda were drop off points only.
I don't see how Aircoach would be prevented from serving intermediate towns, if it applied to do so. Aircoach used to serve Dundalk and Drogheda on its Belfast Dublin service. It's Dundalk service is mentioned in these boards.ie discussions dating from 2005.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=242051
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=240960&page=2
Bus Éireann /Translink Ulsterbus used to serve Drogheda and Dundalk on its Dublin - Dublin Airport - Belfast service, but it took a decision to stop serving both towns on this Belfast Dublin service in 2011, and did so, on 29th May 2011.
As a result, if you want to get to Belfast by bus from Dundalk, you now have to get a bus from Dundalk to Newry, to connect with the Befast service.
I mention this because the bus service between Dublin and Belfast has a vital advantage over the Dublin Belfast train service that serves Drogheda and Dundalk, in that the bus service operates throughout the night to and from Dublin and Belfast.
Now, if you are in Belfast at night, after the last train for Dublin has left Belfast at 8.05pm (Monday - Saturday) or 7.05pm on Sundays, and want to get back to Dundalk, the nearest you can get to Dundalk by bus is Newry.
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/dublin-belfast-web.pdf
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1470224678-X1.pdf
I would imagine, as a result, many people from Dundalk and Drogheda going to and from Belfast, have ended up deciding to drive, rather than using either bus or train services.
Aircoach used to have another service between Dublin airport and Drogheda and Dundalk.
In 2010, Aircoach had ended its Belfast Dublin service totally, but started another service in 2012.
https://www.tripadvisor.ie/ShowTopic-g186470-i491-k3947506-Aircoach_Belfast_to_Dublin_cancelled-Belfast_Northern_Ireland.html
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056664233
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20556640130 -
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Not odd at all, BE's passenger numbers have actually been increasing. What is odd is that they are losing so much money despite full buses and increased passenger numbers!
Captain obvious.
Free travel pass numbers have risen year after year, now 1.2million can use them.
When was the last time the money paid by the government for the FTP increased? The 80's or 90's?
There is your answer to how BE can carry more passengers and not be making more money.
1.2 million people with free passes !!!
That's over 1/4 of our population surely this has to be looked at
Is it any wonder public companies are struggling0 -
horseburger wrote: »The item suggested that there might be an opportunity for companies like Collins Coaches to take over a route like the number 33 Derry/Dublin, Bus Éireann-Translink Ulster Bus service, if the Bus Éireann Expressway services were ended.
The number 33 Derry to Dublin - Dublin Airport Bus Éireann/Translink Ulster Bus service includes services from Derry Bus Station at 12am and 4.15am to Dublin and Dublin Airport which also serve intermediate towns.
I'm not sure that if any private operator took over this Dublin Derry route, that they would run a bus service at those late night/early morning times, to Dublin and Dublin Airport, which would also stop at intermediate towns.
Many bus users of longer distance routes, for example the Derry to Dublin service, may not like stopping in intermediate towns, but people who live in the intermediate towns use the buses, and I think it would be a negative move, if a decision was taken by Bus Éireann, not to serve the intermediate towns.
Privates are VERY loathe to set up services on cross border routes because the market is effectively not regulated because it falls outside both governments regulation power because it is a international route, this leaves companies with situations were they can pretty much do what they like and there is not a jot that people can do about it which makes it very hard to run a service.
When there are two state run companies who are incumbents on that route and strong ones at that, it means there is virtually zero viability in running such route when the incumbents can engage in predatory behaviour, predatory timetables and flood the corridor with buses and there being no way of stopping that. This could not happen within the ROI as the NTA has systems in place to stop that.I have taken Aircoach services from Belfast to Dublin, and on one recent Saturday on the 4.30pm service from Belfast to Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre, there was around five people on the bus.
Might they not get more people using their service if they ran at least some of their services through intermediate towns?
The trouble is they are only able to carry passengers cross border, because the Northern Ireland authorities will not allow them a license to carry passengers from say Newry to Belfast and Aircoach did the whole stopping thing before which didn't work out.
That route is doing particularly well a lot of the time, the core patronage tends to be those based in Belfast, with the earlier services from Belfast very busy and the later services from Dublin being very busy - of course there are some exceptions, but generally that is the trend.Bus Éireann operate extra buses at the airport to ensure extra passengers are accommodated, for example they'll put on an extra bus to cover passengers for Monaghan who may be waiting for either the Letterkenny 32 or Derry 33 buses. Also, Bus Éireann will make available an extra bus for Newry, at the airport, if the bus for Belfast is full, or very nearly full when it leaves Bus Aras.
Reliefs are also scheduled on Aircoach if forecasts or online booking numbers suggest that they are needed. As an efficient private
It sounds to me that on these routes, it makes sense for Bus Éireann to serve intermediate towns.People who want buses to serve only the place they are going, for example the places where the bus services that they use, start and terminate, don't seem to acknowledge, that other people in intermediate towns also use buses, when they are made available, and are convenient to them.
I completely agree, there will always be the need for both kinds of service depending on passengers need, no dispute with that whatsoever.For example, the 109A last Friday night / Saturday morning, that left from Bus Aras at 3.25am, was full leaving Bus Aras, apart from one seat - there was only one free seat available when it arrived at Dublin airport. When it stopped at Ashbourne, many of the passengers got out, and then more at Dunshaughlin.
Yet, if there was someone standing in Navan or Kells, and saw the bus go by, after it had left Dunshaughlin, they might think far less people had used the bus, from Dublin City Centre and Dublin Airport to Kells.
The 24 hour 109A is a recent development, having started operating 24 hours since 31st July 2016, to and from Kells and Dublin, and the example of the Ashbourne stop on the 3.25am service last Friday night, indicates that people are using the service to and from intermediate towns, even if it may not always be that full, at other times.
And this is a perfect example of a great route that is socially necessary but probably not viable commercially. That is why it is subsidized by the taxpayer who provides BE with vehicles to run it and funding to run it. It isn't however, a valid comparison against Expressway or other commercial routes because it's based on a totally different model.0 -
Great stuff?
So can you tell me what private sector bus i take from Dublin city centre to roscrea that accept ftp. Please I mean from the city centre!!#!#
Not the red cow :-)
5kms away thanks
I've already posted the answer.
JJ Kavanagh stop at Eden Quay.
Maybe you should check the link again?0 -
I think the Aircoach licence is pretty restrictive and perhaps the Translink one. AFAIK Aircoach and Translink cannot pick up in the south If the journey commences in the north and vice versa. it's strictly cross border. Maybe Aircoach are not allowed any pickups at all.I don't know how the Derry service operates.
There are no actual route licenses whatsoever on cross-border routes. All there is are basically community approval, which says an operator can across the border with passengers on.
The issue with that is it pretty much allows operators to use whatever tactics they like to keep the opposition out or force them out of business if they desire to do so, be that running buses five minutes ahead of the competition from the same stop, flooding a corridor with buses, adding extra or non timetabled services at a drop of a hat and other similar activities.
Operators, operating routes within Republic of Ireland cannot do that because sensibly this country has a regulator which has decided such behaviour, which is common in the UK, has no place in the market here since it does nobody any favours in the long run.0 -
Privates are VERY loathe to set up services on cross border routes because the market is effectively not regulated because it falls outside both governments regulation power because it is a international route, this leaves companies with situations were they can pretty much do what they like and there is not a jot that people can do about it which makes it very hard to run a service.
When there are two state run companies who are incumbents on that route and strong ones at that, it means there is virtually zero viability in running such route when the incumbents can engage in predatory behaviour, predatory timetables and flood the corridor with buses and there being no way of stopping that. This could not happen within the ROI as the NTA has systems in place to stop that.
The trouble is they are only able to carry passengers cross border, because the Northern Ireland authorities will not allow them a license to carry passengers from say Newry to Belfast and Aircoach did the whole stopping thing before which didn't work out.
That route is doing particularly well a lot of the time, the core patronage tends to be those based in Belfast, with the earlier services from Belfast very busy and the later services from Dublin being very busy - of course there are some exceptions, but generally that is the trend.
Reliefs are also scheduled on Aircoach if forecasts or online booking numbers suggest that they are needed. As an efficient private
It sounds to me that on these routes, it makes sense for Bus Éireann to serve intermediate towns.
I completely agree, there will always be the need for both kinds of service depending on passengers need, no dispute with that whatsoever.
And this is a perfect example of a great route that is socially necessary but probably not viable commercially. That is why it is subsidized by the taxpayer who provides BE with vehicles to run it and funding to run it. It isn't however, a valid comparison against Expressway or other commercial routes because it's based on a totally different model.
I know that the 109A service is operated on a different basis than the Expressway services. I mentioned the particular service, as it was an indication that people will use buses, if they serve intermediate towns. I used that example, because on the particular bus to which I referred, it was completely full when leaving the airport, and that most of the passengers alighted at Ashbourne and then more passengers got out at Ratoath and Dunshaughlin.
I guess, that passengers at intermediate towns, like Virginia and Cavan, help sustain long distance bus services, like the Donegal Dublin number 30 service.
For example, in the case of the Donegal Dublin 30 service, I would guess it is possible that there might be individual passengers at Virginia and Cavan, who may use it more often, to and from Dublin City Centre, than say a passenger from Donegal using it to go to the airport?
(Passengers for Cavan and Virginia can take the midnight Donegal bus from Bus Aras and the airport every night).
I have used Aircoach services from Belfast, for example, the 1.30am service to Dublin, which don't stop anywhere until Dublin Airport, and they were nowhere near full.
If some of Aircoach's services, at particular times, are not that busy, might it decide to cut back on some of its services?
Yes, you are correct that Aircoach will often have an extra bus available to serve the numbers of passengers at particular times. Aircoach regularly has two buses available for its 1am service from Patrick Street, Cork, to Dublin City Centre.0 -
A key issue is. We are going to be back here again and again if this isn't sorted once and for all. Shane Ross only involvement should be to say " break even at minimum ever year" therecwill be no government involvement. One issue I have with the drivers is. In most companies all staff work together as it benefits all. In cie the attitude seems to be, do as little as you can, gouge as much as you can and treat customers with contempt ...0
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horseburger wrote: »You raise a valid point. I don't think private coaches would operate many of the services that are operated by Bus Éireann.
I'd disagree, I'd suspect privates would be quiet happy to run any of the services that BE run.
The likes of Aircoach, GoBE, Dublin Coach, Citylink, etc. get lots of attention on this forum as they are the premium non stop intercity services. However it would be a terrible mistake to think these are the only private services operating in the country!
People seem to forget that there are 3 times as many private buses and coaches operating in Ireland then BE and DB combined! Everything from the likes of Aircoach at the top, down to companies like Feda O'Donnell and John McGinley Coaches operating buses around the most rural areas of Donegal and everything in between.
There are plenty of private operators operating multi-stop stopping services such as JJ Kavanagh.
Citylink to Galway and beyond is a great example of a company operating both a direct, non-stop service and a stopping service along the same route. Showing clearly that privates are happy to do both if demand exists and it is profitable.
There are even many subsidised PSO routes that many operators would be happy to operate without a subsidy. The 109 is a perfect example of this. Very strong rumours have it that Dublin Coach applied for a licence to operate this route with no subsidy, but it was turned down due to fears that it would be too much competition for BE!
Of course there are some truly low capacity routes that wouldn't be profitable for a private to operate. However with a subsidy, of course a private would be happy to operate them. And I don't see why a private operator would require any more money then BE does to operate the same route, not with BE's insane cost structures.0 -
There are also some routes where there just isn't enough demand for two commercial operators, it would lead to both operators being unviable which would not be in a passenger interest, plus as incumbent BE has a legacy advantage on a lot of markets versus operators who would start from nothing.
When Aircoach operated both non stop and stopping Cork services the passenger numbers on the stoppers fell through the floor to low single figures. The timetable was cut back a little and they fell through the floor more, so it was removed because that the services were not picking up enough people.
I don't believe there was ever enough demand for 14 buses a day from the intermediate towns like before, it was just the people going from Dublin to Cork or vice versa that was making all the difference on the yields on those particular routes. Once you take them out the loads are a lot thinner on the ground.
What has happened since is that BE have seen a lot of their end to end passengers on the X8 replaced with passengers from the previous towns, who would have previously used Aircoach, the services of six a day between them is more in line than the 14 that were provided previously.
Essentially Aircoach decided back in 2012 that in the long term the loss of intermediate customers would be made up for by more non stop customers, whilst BE believed that the loss of intermediate customers would not be made up for by non stop services.0 -
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Essentially Aircoach decided back in 2012 that in the long term the loss of intermediate customers would be made up for by more non stop customers, whilst BE believed that the loss of intermediate customers would not be made up for by non stop services.
And clearly they had it right, given how widely successful they have been with the non-stop service. Also worth pointing out that this service and the GoBE service have lead to a 60% increase in the number of bus passengers on the route, so it clearly wasn't just a case of them taking passengers from BE, they clearly have tapped into an unmet demand that was there.
It should also be pointed out that when Aircoach launched this service and the Belfast service, they were actually losing money! They might have liked to continue the stopping service, along with the direct service, much like Citylink does, but they didn't seem to have enough coaches to cover both and they couldn't afford to buy more given their loses, so it seems they prioritised the routes where they would make more money, wisely I would say.
If BE Expressway went under tomorrow, I'd be shocked if Aircoach didn't start up their stopping service to Cork again, parallel to the direct service, now that they are back to being profitable and have bought lots of new coaches.0 -
I'd disagree, I'd suspect privates would be quiet happy to run any of the services that BE run.
The likes of Aircoach, GoBE, Dublin Coach, Citylink, etc. get lots of attention on this forum as they are the premium non stop intercity services. However it would be a terrible mistake to think these are the only private services operating in the country!
People seem to forget that there are 3 times as many private buses and coaches operating in Ireland then BE and DB combined! Everything from the likes of Aircoach at the top, down to companies like Feda O'Donnell and John McGinley Coaches operating buses around the most rural areas of Donegal and everything in between.
There are plenty of private operators operating multi-stop stopping services such as JJ Kavanagh.
Citylink to Galway and beyond is a great example of a company operating both a direct, non-stop service and a stopping service along the same route. Showing clearly that privates are happy to do both if demand exists and it is profitable.
There are even many subsidised PSO routes that many operators would be happy to operate without a subsidy. The 109 is a perfect example of this. Very strong rumours have it that Dublin Coach applied for a licence to operate this route with no subsidy, but it was turned down due to fears that it would be too much competition for BE!
Of course there are some truly low capacity routes that wouldn't be profitable for a private to operate. However with a subsidy, of course a private would be happy to operate them. And I don't see why a private operator would require any more money then BE does to operate the same route, not with BE's insane cost structures.
I'm just not too sure that a private company would operate a service, like the 109, as regularly throughout the whole day, and late into the evening, to and from Dublin. The 109 is hourly to and from Cavan, which serves Kells and Navan with services later in the early evening that also serve Dunshaughlin, for example the 5pm from Cavan.
There are also separate 109 buses that start in Kells during the day that are every 30 minutes, that serve Navan and Dunshaughlin.
There are also hourly 109 services to Dublin that start in Navan throughout the day, which also serve Dunshaughlin and Johnstown.
I'm not sure that a private company would operate a service as frequent as the 109, to and from Cavan and Dublin, with separate services operating throughout the day, which start in Kells, as well as having a separate 109 service that starts in Navan throughout the day.
There are a number of private coaches that operate to and from Dublin, but many of them don't have services that leave Dublin, as late into the evening as the Bus Éireann 109.
I gave an example in a previous post, about Collins Coaches last service leaving earlier than the Bus Éireann Letterkenny service that covers Ardee and Carrickmacross.
The last 109 leaves Dublin at 11.30pm Monday Saturday, and at 11pm on Sundays, and then you have the option of the 24 hours 109A.
On Saturdays, the 109 operates hourly between Cavan and Dublin, and half hourly between Kells, Navan and Dunshaughlin and Dublin.
Sillan Tours, which covers Navan and Dunshaughlin, has a last service from Dublin, Monday to Friday at 7.15pm. On Saturdays, it runs two buses to Dublin and two buses home.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22252
horseburger wrote: »I'm just not too sure that a private company would operate a service, like the 109, as regularly throughout the whole day, and late into the evening, to and from Dublin. The 109 is hourly to and from Cavan, which serves Kells and Navan with services later in the early evening that also serve Dunshaughlin, for example the 5pm from Cavan.
I don't see why they wouldn't. Aircoach, Citylink, etc. seem to be quiet happy to run services 24/7, with zero subsidy.
For a route like the 109 it would depend on what basis if it is run.
If it is run on a purely commercial basis, with no subsidy, then it would be up to the private operator as to what schedule they want to run on it. You would assume that as long as it had enough passengers to be profitable, they would run at those times. As you mentioned, some Aircoach buses to Belfast might have just 5 passengers, yet they still run it and the route overall is very profitable for them.
If it continued to be a PSO route, then a tender would be put out by the NTA to run the route and the NTA would be the ones who would decide the schedule, etc.
If the NTA decided that the route should have buses running late into the evening or even 24/7, then the winner of the contract would have to deliver exactly that. The fact that some of the departures might be quiet and unprofitable, would be irrelevant to the private operator as the cost of them would be covered by the PSO subsidy.
I also don't like this idea that BE are the only company willing to run late services as it clearly isn't true.
The last BE bus from Cork to Dublin was 6pm! Imagine that, there was no bus service between the two largest cities in Ireland after 6pm! Insane. People were asking them for later buses for years, yet they claimed there was no demand for it.
Then Aircoach come along and offer hourly buses operating almost 24/7 and guess what, massively successful. Often up to three extra reliefs put on per hour, the demand is so high!
Proving that BE were dead wrong about the demand and also proving that privates are very willing to operate 24/7.0 -
Idbatterim wrote: »Shane Ross only involvement should be to say " break even at minimum ever year" therecwill be no government involvement.
not his job. it's a socially necessary service so breaking even will only happen if enough passengers use the service and bring in extra income. he cannot tell the expressway what to do as it is a commercial service.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »not his job. it's a socially necessary service so breaking even will only happen if enough passengers use the service and bring in extra income. he cannot tell the expressway what to do as it is a commercial service.
Strangely enough I agree as corollary to that is that if it's a commercial service you can't expect the state to pay if the union's put their paw out (again)0 -
horseburger wrote: »I'm just not too sure that a private company would operate a service, like the 109, as regularly throughout the whole day, and late into the evening, to and from Dublin. The 109 is hourly to and from Cavan, which serves Kells and Navan with services later in the early evening that also serve Dunshaughlin, for example the 5pm from Cavan.
I'm not sure Bus Eireann would operate a service like that either if they suddenly had to fund their own vehicles for it and had to pay the full costs themselves rather than having vehicles provided for them by the state and having the route subsidised.
It's like comparing apples with oranges, BE operate services that would normally be very unviable because they are paid to do so, not out of the kindness of their hearts, privates don't because they have to pay for their vehicles and don't get a hand out from the taxpayer.
When the playing field is level, privates have innovated on many corridors and introduced ground breaking new services that BE said there was no demand for, unfortunately when it comes to unviable routes that need a PSO there is not a level playing field right now.end of the road wrote: »not his job. it's a socially necessary service so breaking even will only happen if enough passengers use the service and bring in extra income. he cannot tell the expressway what to do as it is a commercial service.
If a service breaks even is more than just about passenger numbers, it's also about costs, the efficiency of rotas and labour, and working practices, staff remuneration, maintenance, performance of the vehicles etc.0 -
end of the road wrote: »he cannot tell the expressway what to do as it is a commercial service.
He's still the sole shareholder of Bus Eireann, even if it has a commercial division.0 -
He's still the sole shareholder of Bus Eireann, even if it has a commercial division.
He should play no part in this.
There are mechanisms of the state set up to deal with disputes and that's where the onus lies along with the company and union.
It riled me big time to hear Willie O'Dea on SOR criticising the Minister for staying out of scene.
Sure Willie, do what your lot did every time,just use taxpayers money to buy your way out.
If that strategy is correct, no need for any of these expensive mechanisms, just deal directly with the Minister.
A stand has to be made here, otherwise it's free for all.
Not doubting that there are excellent workers in there but it seems that at last, up to now, at least someone is batting for the hard pressed taxpayer.
If Go t give in on this we may throw our hat at wage restraint and systems.0 -
Brendan Bendar wrote: »He should play no part in this.
I totally agree, he's doing the right thing so far. I was just correcting EOTRs assertion that he _could_ not do anything. He could but he shouldn't.0 -
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I totally agree, he's doing the right thing so far. I was just correcting EOTRs assertion that he _could_ not do anything. He could but he shouldn't.
I concur completely. He should continue to stay out of this. Him getting involved will only make this situation much worse than it already is.
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This discussion has been closed.
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