Bust Éireann

n97 mini

Minister Ross was on drive time earlier. Said he's not getting involved as they'd only want him to open his cheque book. He's dead right not to get involved.

Brendan Bendar

n97 mini wrote: »

Minister Ross was on drive time earlier. Said he's not getting involved as they'd only want him to open his cheque book. He's dead right not to get involved.

Yes heard that.

O'Leary and Noone might be out on a limb here.

A pity because there are good people working there.

Noone must have thought he was back in Aer Lingus in the 'good' old days:D

Flex

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Yes heard that.

O'Leary and Noone might be out on a limb here.

A pity because there are good people working there.

Noone must have thought he was back in Aer Lingus in the 'good' old days:D

NBRU saying the strike is inevitable due to and being caused by the Minister for Transport refusing to get involved and use taxpayer money to bail them out. The contempt the trade unions in Ireland hold PAYE private sector workers in is remarkable, and the only thing more remarkable than it is that

• those PAYE workers they so openly seek to rip off never stand up against it in any coherent or organised fashion as they dip their hands into our wallets, IMO (and I say that about myself as well)
• no political party is willing to make even a half-assed attempt at representing those taxpayers

markpb

Flex wrote:

the only thing more remarkable than it is that those PAYE workers they so openly seek to rip off never stand up against it

Am awful lot of people in Ireland have this weird disconnect between the government budget and their taxes. They think the government should give public employees more money because they're front line and therefore deserve it or they'd prefer to see the employees get it than the ministers, or the money would be wasted on consultants or they don't realise that the extra pay for ps employees comes out of their own pay.

Brendan Bendar

Flex wrote: »

NBRU saying the strike is inevitable due to and being caused by the Minister for Transport refusing to get involved and use taxpayer money to bail them out. The contempt the trade unions in Ireland hold PAYE private sector workers in is remarkable, and the only thing more remarkable than it is that

• those PAYE workers they so openly seek to rip off never stand up against it in any coherent or organised fashion as they dip their hands into our wallets, IMO (and I say that about myself as well)
• no political party is willing to make even a half-assed attempt at representing those taxpayers

Never was a truer word said, Flex.

Del.Monte

What exactly does the so-called Minister for Transport do in relation to his brief? All responsibility is conveniently farmed out to CIE and the NTA and he is surplus to requirements - axing him and his whole useless department would result in considerable savings.

Thargor

Del.Monte wrote: »

What exactly does the so-called Minister for Transport do in relation to his brief? All responsibility is conveniently farmed out to CIE and the NTA and he is surplus to requirements - axing him and his whole useless department would result in considerable savings.

How dare you, Minister Ross is the foremost expert on Irish public transport:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/5lst1s/irish_minister_for_transport_takes_a_bus_for_the/
Irish minister for transport takes a bus for the first time:



Because if you don't take a selfie, did it really happen?



it's 10am... nobody is on the bus to work at 10am in Dublin. Of course it's empty.

jimmycrackcorm

kingshankly wrote:

1.2 million people with free passes !!! That's over 1/4 of our population surely this has to be looked at Is it any wonder public companies are struggling

It's not like you cannot get a seat on a bus because it's full of grey haired people.

In fact because they don't need to go to work or college it's likely that any journeys they undertake are only necessary and by a fraction of the people who can avail of ftp. My own mother who is in her eighties thinks it's marvelous to have, even if she had only used it twice in over twenty years!

We will all be in that position one day so it's very fair in that sense.When people say the bus operator only gets half the normal ticket price then they might wonder how Ryanair manages with seats at 9.99.

SweetCaliber

Probably a bad time to ask if Bus Eireann are ever going to buy new commuter buses. Tramore to Waterford bus for example, full nearly all the time yet buses are 10 years old, leaking when it rains, and always making incredibly weird and unnerving noises.

Same buses are run every half hour every day of the week.

oppenheimer1

Deleted User wrote: »

Transport services are classified as a service of general economic interest and therefore BE are not subject to the same state aid rules as Apple. Its the same reason that the courier companies couldn't object to the state aid that was given to An Post. Furthermore some of the state aid that is given to BE was established before we joined the EU and is grandfathered in

Expressway does not hold a public service obligation therefore it doesn't meet the terms to allow state aid under that clause.

BÉ won't be getting aid.

bk

SweetCaliber wrote: »

Probably a bad time to ask if Bus Eireann are ever going to buy new commuter buses. Tramore to Waterford bus for example, full nearly all the time yet buses are 10 years old, leaking when it rains, and always making incredibly weird and unnerving noises.

Same buses are run every half hour every day of the week.

10 years isn't old for a bus, DB's keeps it's fleet for 12 years and that is considered extremely young by industry standards, 14 to 16 years wouldn't be unusual.

The issues you describe is down more to lack of proper maintenance. No reason why a 10 year old bus can't be in excellent condition if properly maintained.

devnull

Threats of disruption to Dublin Bus services I'm hearing, as a picket at Bus Eireann Broadstone depot which is a shared facility with Dublin Bus, may not operate because of DB staff will not go near the picket.

According to an article I read, DB are attempting to move staff and buses to other depots ahead of the strike in order to ensure that the service keeps running.

loyatemu

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It's not like you cannot get a seat on a bus because it's full of grey haired people.

In fact because they don't need to go to work or college it's likely that any journeys they undertake are only necessary and by a fraction of the people who can avail of ftp. My own mother who is in her eighties thinks it's marvelous to have, even if she had only used it twice in over twenty years!

too much is made of the free travel pass - the vast majority of the 1.2m are pensioners and the disabled and everyone seems to agree that they shouldn't be touched.

There's 2 options; either the govt increases the amount it pays CIE for the FTP users, which would basically just be an increase in the subvention, aka "opening the taxpayers chequebook" that everyone is so vehemently arguing against.

Or they try to reduce the number of FTP users, but even if they took such a politically unpopular move the only way it would help CIE's financial position is if they used the reduction in passengers to justify cutting services and laying off staff which nobody seems to want either (it would result in fewer services for paying customers too).

Bass Reeves

loyatemu wrote: »

too much is made of the free travel pass - the vast majority of the 1.2m are pensioners and the disabled and everyone seems to agree that they shouldn't be touched.

There's 2 options; either the govt increases the amount it pays CIE for the FTP users, which would basically just be an increase in the subvention, aka "opening the taxpayers chequebook" that everyone is so vehemently arguing against.

Or they try to reduce the number of FTP users, but even if they took such a politically unpopular move the only way it would help CIE's financial position is if they used the reduction in passengers to justify cutting services and laying off staff which nobody seems to want either (it would result in fewer services for paying customers too).

No what the government should do is tender out routes and have an open competition for bus companies to provide the service. You be amazed at how much the subvention would reduce over time.

n97 mini

loyatemu wrote: »

too much is made of the free travel pass - the vast majority of the 1.2m are pensioners and the disabled and everyone seems to agree that they shouldn't be touched.

There's 2 options; either the govt increases the amount it pays CIE for the FTP users,
Or they try to reduce the number of FTP users,

These are the options as far as I can see:
1. Company wants to cut losses by introducing wage reductions and other operating costs. I don't think I heard redundancies. This is how most loss making companies operate to survive.
2. Unions want more pay per head for FTP customers. In a way this is the golden goose and the unions path to salvation at the taxpayers'expense. Every time BE slips into the red just blame it on the FTP.
3. FF want to convert loss making Expressway routes into PSO routes, which in turn will attract more taxpayer money. This is cronyism at its best and I can't believe they had the stones to suggest it.

road_high

Idbatterim wrote: »

I wonder would private operators step in on routes that it is proposed are scrapped? Bus eireann are crap at what they do... would be interesting

I'd imagine the Clonmel/Kilkenny/Dublin route could and should be profitable with the right operator.
There's no other competition from Clonmel to dublin. Also, while the journey times are very good via the M9 motorway (a little over an hour from Kilkenny), the times in the morning are ridiculous. The 05.25 is far too early for anyone commuting to dublin, the 07.25 too late as it reaches Busaras at 09.07 am. Why not readjust to 07.00 am and be a viable option for commuters/ day trippers/business people?

bk

devnull wrote: »

Threats of disruption to Dublin Bus services I'm hearing, as a picket at Bus Eireann Broadstone depot which is a shared facility with Dublin Bus, may not operate because of DB staff will not go near the picket.

According to an article I read, DB are attempting to move staff and buses to other depots ahead of the strike in order to ensure that the service keeps running.

Broadstone seems to be a smaller depot, just 40 buses out of 980. Shouldn't have a major impact on DB either way.

devnull

road_high wrote: »

I'd imagine the Clonmel/Kilkenny/Dublin route could and should be profitable with the right operator.
There's no other competition from Clonmel to dublin. Also, while the journey times are very good via the M9 motorway (a little over an hour from Kilkenny), the times in the morning are ridiculous. The 05.25 is far too early for anyone commuting to dublin, the 07.25 too late as it reaches Busaras at 09.07 am. Why not readjust to 07.00 am and be a viable option for commuters/ day trippers/business people?

There is competition:
http://jjkavanagh.ie/timetable-detail-page?RouteNo=717&IsWeb=1&IsCollegeRoute=0&Direction=0&RGrp=Main%20Routes%20^%20Airport%20Routes

However it serves more places, but that puts to bed speculation that privates don't serve small places.

devnull

bk wrote: »

Broadstone seems to be a smaller depot, just 40 buses out of 980. Shouldn't have a major impact on DB either way.

Most of the routes it operates are peak time only and xpressos etc though so at peaks this could have an effect.

road_high

devnull wrote: »

There is competition:
http://jjkavanagh.ie/timetable-detail-page?RouteNo=717&IsWeb=1&IsCollegeRoute=0&Direction=0&RGrp=Main%20Routes%20^%20Airport%20Routes

However it serves more places, but that puts to bed speculation that privates don't serve small places.

Forgot Kavanagh also go as far as Clonmel too. Not sure if they're any cheaper? Got it from the Red Cow last week to kk, €13 one way. Dublin coach are €10.
They still send some of the services via Athy, the rest now direct via M9.

n97 mini

road_high wrote: »

Forgot Kavanagh also go as far as Clonmel too. Not sure if they're any cheaper? Got it from the Red Cow last week to kk, €13 one way. Dublin coach are €10.
They still send some of the services via Athy, the rest now direct via M9.

Kavanagh's: Clonmel to Eden Quay = €15 (€20 return)
BE: to Busarus = €11.40 (€18.05 return)

bk

devnull wrote: »

Most of the routes it operates are peak time only and xpressos etc though so at peaks this could have an effect.

Of course you are absolutely correct, it would have some effect on peak time capacity. Just making the point for others reading that it would be a relatively minor impact, the vast majority of the DB fleet would continue to operate.

road_high

n97 mini wrote: »

Kavanagh's: Clonmel to Eden Quay = €10
BE: to Busarus = €11.40

I paid €13 one way to Kilkenny with JJ Kav just last week

n97 mini

road_high wrote: »

I paid €13 one way to Kilkenny with JJ Kav just last week

Sorry my bad, I had assumed a return with JJ was 2 x single ticket, it's not.

end of the road

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No what the government should do is tender out routes and have an open competition for bus companies to provide the service. You be amazed at how much the subvention would reduce over time.

i would because i have not read of 1 example where it has happened. at least long term. itt really seems to be only a belief rather then actually being the case. there is only 1 way to truely achieve subsidy reductions and that is by passing the cost on to the passenger. the publically owned company keeping the subsidized routes is from what i can see the best option.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

i would because it' seems to be only a belief rather then actually being the case. there is only 1 way to achieve subsidy reductions and that is by passing the cost on to the passenger.

Let me introduce the meaning of the word cost.

In business and accounting, a cost is the monetary value that a company spends in order to produce products to sell on the market or to provide a service. The lower the costs are, the less income a company needs to make from it's customers and any other grants or subsidies that they may be eligible for to break even financially.

A monopoly will produce less of a good and charge a higher price for it than in a competitive market. This is bad for consumers because there is less of a product and it costs more. In a perfectly competitive market price and output are set by the supply and demand

Some reading for you:
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/consumers/why_en.html

horseburger

bk wrote: »

I don't see why they wouldn't. Aircoach, Citylink, etc. seem to be quiet happy to run services 24/7, with zero subsidy.

For a route like the 109 it would depend on what basis if it is run.

If it is run on a purely commercial basis, with no subsidy, then it would be up to the private operator as to what schedule they want to run on it. You would assume that as long as it had enough passengers to be profitable, they would run at those times. As you mentioned, some Aircoach buses to Belfast might have just 5 passengers, yet they still run it and the route overall is very profitable for them.

If it continued to be a PSO route, then a tender would be put out by the NTA to run the route and the NTA would be the ones who would decide the schedule, etc.

If the NTA decided that the route should have buses running late into the evening or even 24/7, then the winner of the contract would have to deliver exactly that. The fact that some of the departures might be quiet and unprofitable, would be irrelevant to the private operator as the cost of them would be covered by the PSO subsidy.

I also don't like this idea that BE are the only company willing to run late services as it clearly isn't true.

The last BE bus from Cork to Dublin was 6pm! Imagine that, there was no bus service between the two largest cities in Ireland after 6pm! Insane. People were asking them for later buses for years, yet they claimed there was no demand for it.

Then Aircoach come along and offer hourly buses operating almost 24/7 and guess what, massively successful. Often up to three extra reliefs put on per hour, the demand is so high!

Proving that BE were dead wrong about the demand and also proving that privates are very willing to operate 24/7.

Robert Troy TD of Fianna Fáil and Imelda Munster TD Sinn Féin, spoke on the Michael Reade Show on LMFM on Thursday 23rd February 2017, in a discussion on Bus Éireann.

https://www.lmfm.ie/on-air/shows/the-michael-reade-show/michael-reade-show-podcasts/the-michael-reade-show-thursday-february-23rd-2017/

At the 24 minute point in the show, Robert Troy and Imelda Munster were discussing the issue of licences being granted to private operators, on routes previously operated by Bus Éireann.

They referred to the Meeting of the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport, Wednesday, 22 February 2017 - the Oireachtas Committee meeting that was held on Wednesday 22nd February, attended by Anne Graham CEO of the NTA.
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=34662&&CatID=127

Robert Troy said:
"Quite amazing yesterday, the CEO of The NTA confirmed what I already knew, that when somebody is issued a licence, be it from Cork to Dublin, a private contractor, when they apply for the licence, they can apply and they can stipulate they are going to service a number of towns along the route".

He added "After a couple of weeks, they can go back to the NTA and say 'I'm sorry this is not commercially viable, we're no longer servicing these towns'. And the NTA has no recourse to sanction, or to enforce them to operate their licence, as they were originally given. The NTA take their word that it's not commercially viable and they allow them pull out of" towns on that bus route.

Imelda Munster stated:
"It's a political policy to run down our public transport network".

Imelda Munster referred to the confirmation by Anne Graham of the NTA, that private companies can decide not to serve intermediate towns, even though the licence granted, was granted on the basis that these towns should be served.

Imelda Munster said "again yesterday, I had said to her (Anne Graham CEO of The NTA) that that statement in itself was telling. What she said was that if a private operator was granted a licence, and if that private operator felt that that licence was no longer financially viable, they can pull from that route straight away. So, where are you left then? Your public service is gone. Public transport should be about providing a public service".

It sounds like there's no certainty at all that if particular Bus Éireann services are stopped, that any private operator would take them over, and no certainty that they'd serve all the intermediate stops which had been covered by Bus Éireann.

https://www.lmfm.ie/on-air/shows/the-michael-reade-show/michael-reade-show-podcasts/the-michael-reade-show-thursday-february-23rd-2017/

devnull

A nice balanced discussion there, Imelda Munster, a Sinn Fein TD and Robert Troy a Fianna Fail TD, who are twisting what the other side says, who has no right of reply on the radio, a one sided discussion if I ever saw one. It appears that Anne Graham has had her words twisted again when she is not on a show to defend herself, no doubt if it's how the poster said it is, they will also be getting correspondence like the Irish Examiner to correct them.

horseburger wrote: »

Robert Troy said: "Quite amazing yesterday, the CEO of The NTA confirmed what I already knew, that when somebody is issued a licence, be it from Cork to Dublin, a private contractor, when they apply for the licence, they can apply and they can stipulate they are going to service a number of towns along the route".

He added "After a couple of weeks, they can go back to the NTA and say 'I'm sorry this is not commercially viable, we're no longer servicing these towns'. And the NTA has no recourse to sanction, or to enforce them to operate their licence, as they were originally given. The NTA take their word that it's not commercially viable and they allow them pull out of" towns on that bus route.

Robert Troy is spinning to the extreme here, there is technically no such thing as a private operator as far as the NTA are concerned as far as their regulation remit goes. and there never has been, the only ones who say there are, happen to be unions and those who would be heavily involved in the union movement .

They are called commercial operators, of which Expressway is one and there is a level playing field in that an operator such as JJ Kavanagh and Expressway have to adhere to exactly the same rules as each other. This is what commercial is, they are self funded and they are run with their own money so they control themselves, but subject to regulation on routes. You cannot force a commercial company to continue running a service they don't want to.

The system is much better than the old system when a private had to apply for a service, their application was passed to Bus Eireann, and if Bus Eireann, if Bus Eireann liked the service they would operate it themselves and often did so to stop a private getting a foot in the door. If BE didn't operate it, the private could, but often it took a few years to issue a license and as soon as it started BE would set up a competing service anyway.

Imelda Munster stated: "It's a political policy to run down our public transport network".Imelda Munster referred to the confirmation by Anne Graham of the NTA, that private companies can decide not to serve intermediate towns, even tough the licence granted, was granted on the basis that these towns should be served.

Spin again. All Commercial companies can apply to change their Interurban service to an Interurban Express service, providing there are not two Interurban Express operators on that corridor. As a commercial operator, they can modify their timetable at any time, however the new timetable has to be approved by the NTA, so whilst they can decided to change stops and apply for such services, there is no assurance that they are going to get it, simply that they can try.

Imelda Munster said "again yesterday, I had said to her (Anne Graham CEO of The NTA) that that statement in itself was telling. What she said was that if a private operator was granted a licence, and if that private operator felt that that licence was no longer financially viable, they can pull from that route straight away.

What I'm sure that Anne Graham said is that a commercial operator (of which Expressway is one) felt a service was no longer viable they can pull that route straight away. The trouble is that a lot of people think that commercial means private but it does not. It means any company or business unit that is self funding and run on a commercial basis. I have not heard the NTA use the word private ever in any statement or in any document issued over the years, they always refer to the operators as commercial operators.

So, where are you left then? Your public service is gone. Public transport should be about providing a public service".

Indeed, it should be about providing a public service where the customer comes first, as for the first time we have had a regulator who has a primary responsibility in law is to the travelling public which thanks to new licences being issued, passenger numbers have increased very significantly. Between 2012 and 2015, total numbers on Cork-Dublin increased by 61 percent, and on the Limerick Dublin by 50 percent, allowing many more journeys to be undertaken on the bus network that starts earlier and finishes later making the service more attractive and people to switch from the car.

When it is the case that some services are stopped at local level the NTA has an undeniable record of stepping in and providing new local services and ensuring that local demands for public transport are met. When route 5 and 7 were curtailed by Bus Eireann, and the same with route 8 and Aircoach route 704 was modified, the NTA put a number of new PSO services and localink services in places to make sure they were still served with adequate service.

I know that some people are deliberately are hiding this from members of the areas that they re represent because they are trying to weaponize the old, the elderly and the sick and scare them into thinking that they will have no bus service, but personally I think that is quite abhorrent and instead of trying to do that, it's about time that they started to represent the many instead of the few in the unions and to be on the side of the vast majority of people in this state and be honest, rather than persisting with fake news.

Brendan Bendar

Won't quote the above post, but it's right on the button.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

A nice balanced discussion there, Imelda Munster, a Sinn Fein TD and Robert Troy a Fianna Fail TD, who are twisting what the other side says, who has no right of reply on the radio, a one sided discussion if I ever saw one. It appears that Anne Graham has had her words twisted again when she is not on a show to defend herself, no doubt if it's how the poster said it is, they will also be getting correspondence like the Irish Examiner to correct them.

i'm sure they will, but it's doubtful they are going to care for the words of an unelected quango. or even better, i'm sure she can always ask to go on the radio in person to set the record straight if she is really upset over it.

devnull wrote: »

Robert Troy is spinning to the extreme here, there is technically no such thing as a private operator as far as the NTA are concerned as far as their regulation remit goes. and there never has been, the only ones who say there are, happen to be unions and those who would be heavily involved in the union movement .

They are called commercial operators, of which Expressway is one and there is a level playing field in that an operator such as JJ Kavanagh and Expressway have to adhere to exactly the same rules as each other. This is what commercial is, they are self funded and they are run with their own money so they control themselves, but subject to regulation on routes. You cannot force a commercial company to continue running a service they don't want to.

the commercial operators apart from bus eireann are private operators. they are private companies. that is a fact, it doesn't matter what way one tries to spin it. so it makes not one jot of difference as to whether they are referred to as private operators or commercial operators, as both are accurate.

devnull wrote: »

What I'm sure that Anne Graham said is that a commercial operator (of which Expressway is one) felt a service was no longer viable they can pull that route straight away. The trouble is that a lot of people think that commercial means private but it does not. It means any company or business unit that is self funding and run on a commercial basis. I have not heard the NTA use the word private ever in any statement or in any document issued over the years, they always refer to the operators as commercial operators.

again that means jot as those apart from bus eireann are private operators

devnull wrote: »

I know that some people are deliberately are hiding this from members of the areas that they re represent because they are trying to weaponize the old, the elderly and the sick and scare them into thinking that they will have no bus service, but personally I think that is quite abhorrent and instead of trying to do that, it's about time that they started to represent the many instead of the few in the unions and to be on the side of the vast majority of people in this state and be honest, rather than persisting with fake news.

they are on the side of the people. that is why they are trying to prepare people incase the worst came to the worst in relation to bus eireann. those people potentially being without services for a while until replacements got sorted isn't "fake news" but a possibility.