Bust Éireann

Brendan Bendar

That they are on the side of the people is the rhetoric they like to put out.

In reality they are on the side of anyone who is taking on the 'establishment '

On the side of anyone who wants to 'sock it to the man'.

They don't care who pays for all this, as long as they peddle the populist line.

Very dangerous to think they give two hoots about the side of the people, it's harnessing people who can't see what the agenda is, is their aim.

Think about sledding down the M50 at 0600 paying your taxes and childcare and tolls and the rest while these people put their hands in your pocket.

Wise up folks

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

i'm sure they will, but it's doubtful they are going to care for the words of an unelected quango. or even better, i'm sure she can always ask to go on the radio in person to set the record straight if she is really upset over it.

Who would have thought a debate on Bus Licensing should have a comment from the CEO of the people who actually administer the system? I suppose you also think that David Franks of Irish Rail should not be involved in any debate relating to Irish Rail too?

But if any debate or a topic of discussion is going to be fair, there needs to be people to represent both sides of the debate to air both sides of the views. A media organisation that doesn't allow that is not being honest with the public and has an agenda at hand. The media should question but they should also tell both sides of the story.

Ireland is a democratic country and our people deserve to be respected enough to make their own mind up. This kind of 'debate' which took place on the radio would not be allowed in many countries, for example in the UK The Communications Act and the Ofcom Broadcasting Code set out special impartiality requirements.

As part of those requirements radio stations and TV channels must make sure views and facts are not misrepresented and all significant opinion is duly reflected on any controversial issues and to make sure particular views and opinions are not given undue prominence over others. Unfortunately very often in Ireland this does not happen.

the commercial operators apart from bus eireann are private operators. they are private companies. that is a fact, it doesn't matter what way one tries to spin it. so it makes not one jot of difference as to whether they are referred to as private operators or commercial operators, as both are accurate.

The reason they didn't use the word "Commercial Operator" is because of the fact that it would involve being honest with the public and telling them what is really going on, it's far more helpful for their argument that they commit deception by omission by only giving the public half the story, to cause outrage, stoke up fear, in the same way the likes of the right wing media do in many countries.

The false impression they are trying to give to their readers is that private operators have different rules to Expressway, even though it is not the case, however they can't out and out say it because it is not true and they cannot back it up, so they skirt around with words. Sometimes what some people don't say is more interesting than what they do, someone who has confidence in an allegation makes it, someone who is spinning implies it without saying it directly.

again that means jot as those apart from bus eireann are private operators.

Yeah, because coming out and saying that Bus Eireann is in trouble because privates are able to do this and that and not mentioning that Bus Eireann has the very same rules is clearly someone who is not being honest with the majority of the public. Anyone who claims their side is being disadvantaged and mentioning that the other side can do this that and the other but deliberately with-holds the fact that their side can do exactly the same is deliberately misleading the public by omission of key information.

Whether they are private or not has no relevance to the discussion, because whether they are private or not has no bearing on licenses that are issued, or what they can do with them or the conditions of the license. There is no need to bring such a phrase into the argument and the only aim of doing so is to start an ideological public vs private war, based on the implied allegation that privates have an unfair advantage, even though it is not true. I'm all for a good and honest debate, but deception by omission is a really pathetic tactic.

It's an attempt to muddy the water and take advantage of people who do not understand the legislation and regulatory environment that commercial operators are subject to in an attempt to win people over by scaring them.

I shouldn't expect any less from one of those parties, considering their history in this countries past, that they are willing to use such tactics, but it doesn't surprise me. I can only think that things will get more dirty from here on in, now the unions and their political allies have decided to drag this debate into such gutter tactics.

they are on the side of the people. that is why they are trying to prepare people incase the worst came to the worst in relation to bus eireann. those people potentially being without services for a while until replacements got sorted isn't "fake news" but a possibility.

No, it's called scaremongering and is completely disgusting. There are people who I know who are fearful that they will lose all bus services because some politician in their area has told them that their rural services will be cut because that the private operators are stealing money from Bus Eireann so they will have to close such services, even though these services are all PSO services which have never been under threat.

Bass Reeves

end of the road wrote: »

i'm sure they will, but it's doubtful they are going to care for the words of an unelected quango. or even better, i'm sure she can always ask to go on the radio in person to set the record straight if she is really upset over it.

There are loads of unelected quango's. The HSE is an unelected quango as is the ESB and BE. The NTA is a regulator just as is COMREG and the PSA etc. It is unfair and polliticall stupid that politicians spin what regulators do. This is why we had Brexit and Donal Trurp is elected in the USA. But then again the Liberal left will blame everyone else but themselves for the rise of figures such as Marie Le Pen and the Dutch extreme right.

end of the road wrote: »

the commercial operators apart from bus eireann are private operators. they are private companies. that is a fact, it doesn't matter what way one tries to spin it. so it makes not one jot of difference as to whether they are referred to as private operators or commercial operators, as both are accurate.

Yes and no Expressway is a commercial operator that is whinging that it is losing money. Yesterday I was going through Adare an expressway bus and a Dublin coach from either Tralee or Killarney passed me. The Expressway was full the DC was empty. Last week I noticed that Expressway has reduced it price to 6 euro single on this route. Not too long ago the price was 11ish euro for a single fare. DC had the route priced at 10 euro. All expressway want is a bigger subvention to wipe out the competition

end of the road wrote: »

again that means jot as those apart from bus eireann are private operators

Incorrect Expressway is a semi state commercial operation. Therefore Ann Graham words are being spun by politicians to make it look like PSO route are effected

end of the road wrote: »

they are on the side of the people. that is why they are trying to prepare people incase the worst came to the worst in relation to bus eireann. those people potentially being without services for a while until replacements got sorted isn't "fake news" but a possibility.

This is fake news, politicians such as O'Dea, Troy and Munster are looking at a possible election in the next 3 months. They are spinning to be seen to be on the side of the OAP's and the drivers.. They care not a fig for other workers or there children using busses going to college or going to Dublin Airport on a weeks break. They know at the end of the day it will not matter a fig as either the EU or the Competition Authority will not allow it

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

Who would have thought a debate on Bus Licensing should have a comment from the CEO of the people who actually administer the system? I suppose you also think that David Franks of Irish Rail should not be involved in any debate relating to Irish Rail too?

But if any debate or a topic of discussion is going to be fair, there needs to be people to represent both sides of the debate to air both sides of the views. A media organisation that doesn't allow that is not being honest with the public and has an agenda at hand. The media should question but they should also tell both sides of the story.

Ireland is a democratic country and our people deserve to be respected enough to make their own mind up. This kind of 'debate' which took place on the radio would not be allowed in many countries, for example in the UK The Communications Act and the Ofcom Broadcasting Code set out special impartiality requirements.

As part of those requirements radio stations and TV channels must make sure views and facts are not misrepresented and all significant opinion is duly reflected on any controversial issues and to make sure particular views and opinions are not given undue prominence over others. Unfortunately very often in Ireland this does not happen.

i'm sure if the CEO of the NTA wishes to put her side of the story across, she can use the multitude of radio stations and papers to get her side across.

devnull wrote: »

The reason they didn't use the word "Commercial Operator" is because of the fact that it would involve being honest with the public and telling them what is really going on, it's far more helpful for their argument that they commit deception by omission by only giving the public half the story, to cause outrage, stoke up fear, in the same way the likes of the right wing media do in many countries.

The false impression they are trying to give to their readers is that private operators have different rules to Expressway, even though it is not the case, however they can't out and out say it because it is not true and they cannot back it up, so they skirt around with words. Sometimes what some people don't say is more interesting than what they do, someone who has confidence in an allegation makes it, someone who is spinning implies it without saying it directly.

the commercial operators apart from bus eireann expressway are private operators. that's what they are, private companies. what is the issue in admitting that being the case? it's a fact that can't be gotten around or denied.

devnull wrote: »

Yeah, because coming out and saying that Bus Eireann is in trouble because privates are able to do this and that and not mentioning that Bus Eireann has the very same rules is clearly someone who is not being honest with the majority of the public. Anyone who claims their side is being disadvantaged and mentioning that the other side can do this that and the other but deliberately with-holds the fact that their side can do exactly the same is deliberately misleading the public by omission of key information.

Whether they are private or not has no relevance to the discussion, because whether they are private or not has no bearing on licenses that are issued, or what they can do with them or the conditions of the license. There is no need to bring such a phrase into the argument and the only aim of doing so is to start an ideological public vs private war, based on the implied allegation that privates have an unfair advantage, even though it is not true. I'm all for a good and honest debate, but deception by omission is a really pathetic tactic.

It's an attempt to muddy the water and take advantage of people who do not understand the legislation and regulatory environment that commercial operators are subject to in an attempt to win people over by scaring them.

I shouldn't expect any less from one of those parties, considering their history in this countries past, that they are willing to use such tactics, but it doesn't surprise me. I can only think that things will get more dirty from here on in, now the unions and their political allies have decided to drag this debate into such gutter tactics.

but the companies apart from bus eireann expressway are privately owned. that can't be escaped. it's not something to be ashamed of.

devnull wrote: »

No, it's called scaremongering and is completely disgusting. There are people who I know who are fearful that they will lose all bus services because some politician in their area has told them that their rural services will be cut because that the private operators are stealing money from Bus Eireann so they will have to close such services, even though these services are all PSO services which have never been under threat.

the company is according to it, facing a real threat of insolventsy. so services potentially being disrupted until replacements are set up should the worst come to the worst is a very real and genuine possibility.

end of the road

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There are loads of unelected quango's. The HSE is an unelected quango as is the ESB and BE. The NTA is a regulator just as is COMREG and the PSA etc. It is unfair and polliticall stupid that politicians spin what regulators do. This is why we had Brexit and Donal Trurp is elected in the USA. But then again the Liberal left will blame everyone else but themselves for the rise of figures such as Marie Le Pen and the Dutch extreme right.

but it's not their fault. it's the fault of the gullible who the extreme right have been able to infiltrate and brainwash, and those who yern for the "good old days" where they could call people the n and p word at will wherever unchallenged, that the extreme right are on the rise. but that is for the multi-culturalism thread over on ah, you might like to visit it and we can debate it further there maybe?

Bass Reeves wrote: »

This is fake news, politicians such as O'Dea, Troy and Munster are looking at a possible election in the next 3 months. They are spinning to be seen to be on the side of the OAP's and the drivers.. They care not a fig for other workers or there children using busses going to college or going to Dublin Airport on a weeks break. They know at the end of the day it will not matter a fig as either the EU or the Competition Authority will not allow it

nothing the EU or the competition authority can do about it. if the company god forbid did go insolvent, the competition authority and EU can't force replacements to be set up any quicker.

frag420

I bags dibs on post 666....

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

i'm sure if the CEO of the NTA wishes to put her side of the story across, she can use the multitude of radio stations and papers to get her side across.

So if tomorrow the media started to quote Private Operators and/or the NTA and stopped quoting union sources in any article that made claims against them you would accept that? I doubt it somehow. You would say that they have an agenda and that the union have a right for their views to be heard rather than being shut out by biased media.

The commercial operators apart from bus eireann expressway are private operators. that's what they are, private companies. what is the issue in admitting that being the case? it's a fact that can't be gotten around or denied.

Because that fact isn't related at all to the debate, the debate was about licensing and whether an operator is a private operator or not makes no difference whatsoever. The politicians make a deliberately and grossly misleading and highly deceptive claim by omission of key facts about the topic at hand in order to drum up support from the public by means which at best belong in the gutter.

Whether they are private or not has no relevance to the discussion, because the discussion is about licensing and the licensing laws and the Public Transport Regulation Act makes no distinction between private commercial and semi state commercial. They are collectively known as "Commercial" companies when it comes to licensing and licensing is the topic which is being debated.

They attempted to make the point that BE EW were discriminated against by the licensing regime that was biased in favour of private operators by deception by omission, they perfectly well knew what they were doing, it's the kind of political stroke that Trump and the leaders in the Brexit campaign would be proud of and the kind of thing they did and continue to do on a regular basis to win support over, which is particularly ironic since you claim to hate the right wing movement

but the companies apart from bus eireann expressway are privately owned. that can't be escaped. it's not something to be ashamed of.

But it has no relevance to any debate relating to licensing regulations.

the company is according to it, facing a real threat of insolventsy. so services potentially being disrupted until replacements are set up should the worst come to the worst is a very real and genuine possibility.

So by that reckoning, we ought to be prepared for the fact that in the next few days North Korea could launch a chemical weapon, please don't accuse me of scaremongering, since they claim they have weapons and are going to use them. It is a real and genuine possibility.

It is also a real and genuine possibility in the climate of Brexit that a hard border could be put between Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland which means many peoples lives could be in danger because it could be a return to the troubles and all the loss of lives that it broke.

The thing is, I would never say any of that because it's scaremongering and at the end of the day what you say is scaremongering too, please don't call me out for mentioning the above things, because you will come across as a complete hypocrite.

It's particularly ironic that the union side is now using the argument that if insolvency happens nobody will be left with services and it will be everyone elses fault, but at the same time completely eradicating themselves of any sense of the blame whatsoever..

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

but it's not their fault. it's the fault of the gullible who the extreme right have been able to infiltrate and brainwash, and those who yern for the "good old days" where they could call people the n and p word at will wherever unchallenged, that the extreme right are on the rise. but that is for the multi-culturalism thread over on ah, you might like to visit it and we can debate it further there maybe?

The media has a responsibility in this area as well and why a proper media regulator is required in Ireland to enhance standards and enforce balanced reporting, especially over broadcast and radio media. Ultimately it should be for the viewer and listener to make up their mind. A debate is not a debate when all of the players in the debate are on the same side. It's more along the lines of propaganda masquerading as a debate.

Not that I would need to do so, but I will bite. I lived in both the UK and Ireland and when I voted in elections in the UK I never voted for a right-wing party. I voted for Labour and Liberal Democrats and would vote the later again if I was still registered to vote in the UK. In Ireland I voted for Labour and Fine Gael in my lifetime. I would never vote for a true right wing party like Renua, Conservatives or the PDs because I think that full right wing policy is wrong.

I am no fan of the right wing and I used to read the Independent and the Guardian when I lived in the UK, and consider the Daily Mail and Daily Express filth, but if you want to cast me as a right winger, feel free to do so, but I would consider myself as being a centrist and if you knew my views on a range of other topics, you would see why. I hate Thatcher and her kind of policies and everything she stands for, but if you want to portray me as some right winger, go ahead, but I'm the most anti-brexit anti-trump person you could meet.

Peppa Pig

end of the road wrote: »

the company is according to it, facing a real threat of insolventsy. so services potentially being disrupted until replacements are set up should the worst come to the worst is a very real and genuine possibility.

end of the road wrote:

you can get to work and school. car, taxi, bike, horse, walk. yes its difficult but not impossible. sometimes the terms need to be changed

EOTR standard response to transport disruptions

Bass Reeves

Peppa Pig wrote: »

EOTR standard response to transport disruptions

If I could thank that post twice I would.

EOTR your hiprocrisy shows once again.

Brendan Bendar

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If I could thank that post twice I would.

EOTR your hiprocrisy shows once again.

Well and truly put away, and should have been long before this.

Across every dispute thread.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

The media has a responsibility in this area as well and why a proper media regulator is required in Ireland to enhance standards and enforce balanced reporting, especially over broadcast and radio media. Ultimately it should be for the viewer and listener to make up their mind. A debate is not a debate when all of the players in the debate are on the same side. It's more along the lines of propaganda masquerading as a debate.

Not that I would need to do so, but I will bite. I lived in both the UK and Ireland and when I voted in elections in the UK I never voted for a right-wing party. I voted for Labour and Liberal Democrats and would vote the later again if I was still registered to vote in the UK. In Ireland I voted for Labour and Fine Gael in my lifetime. I would never vote for a true right wing party like Renua, Conservatives or the PDs because I think that full right wing policy is wrong.

I am no fan of the right wing and I used to read the Independent and the Guardian when I lived in the UK, and consider the Daily Mail and Daily Express filth, but if you want to cast me as a right winger, feel free to do so, but I would consider myself as being a centrist and if you knew my views on a range of other topics, you would see why. I hate Thatcher and her kind of policies and everything she stands for, but if you want to portray me as some right winger, go ahead, but I'm the most anti-brexit anti-trump person you could meet.

where did i cast you as a right winger? it never happened because i know you aren't one. and we best get back to bus eireann.

Peppa Pig wrote: »

EOTR standard response to transport disruptions

irrelevant as it isn't debating anything i said. either for or against.

luketitz

Would be a shame to see them go outta business, considering all the pensioners etc in middle Ireland who rely on BE as their primary/only means of transport

bk

luketitz wrote: »

Would be a shame to see them go outta business, considering all the pensioners etc in middle Ireland who rely on BE as their primary/only means of transport

And has been repeated many times before, if they were to go out of business, they would be replaced by another company operating the same routes.

BE receives significant subsidies from the government to run rural routes. If they go out of business then contracts to run those routes will be put out to tender by the government and which ever company wins the tender, will get the subsidy and run the route.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

Irrelevant as it isn't debating anything i said. either for or against.

It's very relevant since previously when a whole operator was going on strike and would not provide any services at all to any of the public, people would get by and there is no issue, however once the unions start trying to scare people you suddenly say the same services which people could do without are now suddenly invaluable can people cannot do without them?

If you got something wrong there is no crime in admitting it, or that you have come round to another viewpoint and have changed your mind from the past. But what you are saying now just makes you look like a populist politician who just changes their mind depending on which way the wind is blowing.

luketitz wrote: »

Would be a shame to see them go outta business, considering all the pensioners etc in middle Ireland who rely on BE as their primary/only means of transport

There are two possible answers to that
a) The Regulator has said that no rural communities will be left un-served so they will step in and provide the services. https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/no-rural-communities-will-left-behind/
b) Like EOTR says, you can get to work and school. car, taxi, bike, horse, walk. yes its difficult but not impossible.;)

ClovenHoof

BE Unions are in kamikaze mode. Replacing BE would be a relatively easy thing comparatively. They seem to think that just because they are CIE that they are some form of precious, much loved, endangered species who need to be protected regardless of cost to the taxpayers.

It's delusional psychosis.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

It's very relevant since previously when a whole operator was going on strike and would not provide any services at all to any of the public, people would get by and there is no issue, however once the unions start trying to scare people you suddenly say the same services which people could do without are now suddenly invaluable can people cannot do without them?

there is a difference between a day without service and god knows how long without one.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

there is a difference between a day without service and god knows how long without one.

Yet when Dublin Bus announced about 10 or more days in the past you still said the same thing about people being able to get by?

n97 mini

devnull wrote: »

Yet when Dublin Bus announced about 10 or more days in the past you still said the same thing about people being able to get by?

You should know by now unions, unlike management, are never wrong.

And commuters "up in Dublin" are less important than pensioners in Donegal who have hospital appointments.

devnull

They are not striking on Monday it seems anyway, judging on the lack of info over the last few days.

I hear though that BE management are meeting on Monday to decide the way forward.

horseburger

devnull wrote: »

A nice balanced discussion there, Imelda Munster, a Sinn Fein TD and Robert Troy a Fianna Fail TD, who are twisting what the other side says, who has no right of reply on the radio, a one sided discussion if I ever saw one. It appears that Anne Graham has had her words twisted again when she is not on a show to defend herself, no doubt if it's how the poster said it is, they will also be getting correspondence like the Irish Examiner to correct them.



Robert Troy is spinning to the extreme here, there is technically no such thing as a private operator as far as the NTA are concerned as far as their regulation remit goes. and there never has been, the only ones who say there are, happen to be unions and those who would be heavily involved in the union movement .

They are called commercial operators, of which Expressway is one and there is a level playing field in that an operator such as JJ Kavanagh and Expressway have to adhere to exactly the same rules as each other. This is what commercial is, they are self funded and they are run with their own money so they control themselves, but subject to regulation on routes. You cannot force a commercial company to continue running a service they don't want to.

The system is much better than the old system when a private had to apply for a service, their application was passed to Bus Eireann, and if Bus Eireann, if Bus Eireann liked the service they would operate it themselves and often did so to stop a private getting a foot in the door. If BE didn't operate it, the private could, but often it took a few years to issue a license and as soon as it started BE would set up a competing service anyway.



Spin again. All Commercial companies can apply to change their Interurban service to an Interurban Express service, providing there are not two Interurban Express operators on that corridor. As a commercial operator, they can modify their timetable at any time, however the new timetable has to be approved by the NTA, so whilst they can decided to change stops and apply for such services, there is no assurance that they are going to get it, simply that they can try.



What I'm sure that Anne Graham said is that a commercial operator (of which Expressway is one) felt a service was no longer viable they can pull that route straight away. The trouble is that a lot of people think that commercial means private but it does not. It means any company or business unit that is self funding and run on a commercial basis. I have not heard the NTA use the word private ever in any statement or in any document issued over the years, they always refer to the operators as commercial operators.



Indeed, it should be about providing a public service where the customer comes first, as for the first time we have had a regulator who has a primary responsibility in law is to the travelling public which thanks to new licences being issued, passenger numbers have increased very significantly. Between 2012 and 2015, total numbers on Cork-Dublin increased by 61 percent, and on the Limerick Dublin by 50 percent, allowing many more journeys to be undertaken on the bus network that starts earlier and finishes later making the service more attractive and people to switch from the car.

When it is the case that some services are stopped at local level the NTA has an undeniable record of stepping in and providing new local services and ensuring that local demands for public transport are met. When route 5 and 7 were curtailed by Bus Eireann, and the same with route 8 and Aircoach route 704 was modified, the NTA put a number of new PSO services and localink services in places to make sure they were still served with adequate service.

I know that some people are deliberately are hiding this from members of the areas that they re represent because they are trying to weaponize the old, the elderly and the sick and scare them into thinking that they will have no bus service, but personally I think that is quite abhorrent and instead of trying to do that, it's about time that they started to represent the many instead of the few in the unions and to be on the side of the vast majority of people in this state and be honest, rather than persisting with fake news.

Here is a link to the transcript, and a link to the video, of the discussion during the Joint Committee meeting about Bus Eireann on Wednesday 22nd February 2017, between Imelda Munster, Robert Troy and Anne Graham, and the part of their discussion at the Joint Committee meeting which was mentioned by Robert Troy and Imelda Munster on LMFM.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/TTJ2017022200002?opendocument#C00100

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=34662&&CatID=127
https://media.heanet.ie/player/bad0cd63dfd2c5b66a5c400a3c4b358f

Anne Graham used the term "private operator" when referring to bus companies, in her responses to Robert Troy and Imelda Munster.

I think that during the LMFM interview, that Robert Troy and Imelda Munster, accurately referred to Anne Graham's response, to their questions about whether or not there would be consequences for bus companies, if they decided not to serve intermediate stops, which would have been stops they were to serve, based the licence they would have been granted.

I think the statements by Anne Graham - in the discussion in the joint committee meeting about Bus Éireann, on 22nd February - to which Robert Troy and Imelda Munster referred, on LMFM are the following: (I have emboldened the text, the statements by Anne Graham, in the text, of part of the discussion, from the transcript on oireachtas.ie, that I include below):

Section of the debate between Robert Troy and Anne Graham:

Deputy Robert Troy: "Ms Graham has said the NTA's role in issuing licenses is to determine timetables and stopping places for licensed services. If somebody, be it Bus Éireann or a private contractor, gets a license based on certain timetables and stopping in certain locations, then goes back to the NTA and shows it is not commercially viable, what consequences can the NTA impose as an authority to ensure it carries out its obligations based on the application that it made?".

Ms Anne Graham: "It is their decision to make. If the service is not commercially viable, they are not obliged to continue with that service. They may make a decision to withdraw or amend their licence by reducing the stopping points or they may make a decision to withdraw their licence altogether. We have no way to stop that under the legislation. That is a decision made by the private operator itself".

Deputy Robert Troy: "To be clear, there are no consequences for somebody who tenders for a particular route to service particular towns at particular times if they come back and say it is not commercially viable to continue. The NTA has no way of forcing them or penalising them. There are no consequences for them".

Ms Anne Graham: "I make the distinction that where services are tendered by us, any changes to the timetables are regulated by us and we make the decisions on that. Where there are licensed services, which are commercial services, that make a decision to withdraw, there are no consequences for the operator. There are consequences for us in terms of trying to ensure there are services to those communities if they are left without services. That is where we step in to try to ensure that, if there is a public service obligation in those areas, we provide the services for those communities".


***********************

In response to Imelda Munster, Anne Graham stated:

"I indicated that a private operator which has a licence service is not obliged to continue that service if it is unviable on a commercial basis. It could be for other reasons that it would want to withdraw from the service. This is covered by the legislation under which we operate on behalf of the Government. There is no doubt that there is more protection for services that are subject to a PSO contract and any changes in regard to those services needs our approval. The only time we would want to consider that would be if we were not in a position to fund services. We try to protect as many public transport services as we can because it is in our interest to make sure there are as many people as possible using public transport, but we do not have the same level of control over a licence service as we do over a subsidised service".

**************************************************************************************************************************

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/TTJ2017022200002?opendocument#C00100

Section of the discussion between Anne Graham and Robert Troy

Deputy Robert Troy: "Ms Graham has said the NTA's role in issuing licenses is to determine timetables and stopping places for licensed services. If somebody, be it Bus Éireann or a private contractor, gets a license based on certain timetables and stopping in certain locations, then goes back to the NTA and shows it is not commercially viable, what consequences can the NTA impose as an authority to ensure it carries out its obligations based on the application that it made?".

Ms Anne Graham: "It is their decision to make. If the service is not commercially viable, they are not obliged to continue with that service. They may make a decision to withdraw or amend their licence by reducing the stopping points or they may make a decision to withdraw their licence altogether. We have no way to stop that under the legislation. That is a decision made by the private operator itself".

Deputy Robert Troy: "To be clear, there are no consequences for somebody who tenders for a particular route to service particular towns at particular times if they come back and say it is not commercially viable to continue. The NTA has no way of forcing them or penalising them. There are no consequences for them".

Ms Anne Graham: "I make the distinction that where services are tendered by us, any changes to the timetables are regulated by us and we make the decisions on that. Where there are licensed services, which are commercial services, that make a decision to withdraw, there are no consequences for the operator. There are consequences for us in terms of trying to ensure there are services to those communities if they are left without services. That is where we step in to try to ensure that, if there is a public service obligation in those areas, we provide the services for those communities".

Deputy Robert Troy: "Ms Graham has said the NTA has a responsibility to regulate and develop an integrated public transport system throughout the island of Ireland. Would she not then feel that the proposed cuts to routes that came out of the talks on Monday would have the potential to cut and disintegrate the network? Has she been informed of these potential cuts? What is her position on these cuts? If these cuts are to proceed, what are her plans to address the shortfall?".

Ms Anne Graham: "The withdrawal of any service is not something we want to see because we want to have as many public transport services available to communities as possible, but we have been informed of the potential for the withdrawal of three of the Expressway routes. We are assessing the potential impact of those withdrawals, what services currently serve those corridors and what services need to be put in place to serve the local areas and local towns. However, we have not made any final decisions on that and the work is still ongoing in terms of the replacement services in those areas".

Deputy Robert Troy: "Ms Graham spoke about route 5. What area did that route cover?".

Ms Anne Graham: "Route 5 went from Waterford to Dublin via Enniscorthy. It was an Expressway route that was terminated in 2015. A number of towns, including Enniscorthy, would have had reductions in services and we served that by extending one of the public service obligation, PSO, services, which was route 132. We then tendered with Wexford Local Link. It introduced a number of rural transport services to connect the towns of Clonroche, Bunclody and Tullow to Enniscorthy and New Ross and then for onward connections on route 4, which is an Expressway service. As we manage the rural transport programme and the contracts with Bus Éireann on its PSO, we can make a number of different interventions to ensure that local communities continue to have services. In some of those towns there was an increased level of service and connectivity as a result of the provisions we made".

Deputy Robert Troy: "Ms Graham would seem to be at variance with the Minister who said on a radio programme in Waterford on 17 February that replacement services by the NTA may not be as frequent or as comfortable as those of Bus Éireann".

Ms Anne Graham: "Obviously, we would try to ensure that the towns are served to the level the demand requires. It may not be the case that one would have the same level of service as an Expressway but it could be the case that one might have better connections to one's local towns or the larger towns with good onward connectivity. Our responsibility is to ensure that the level of connectivity is continued to the level required for the communities in those areas".

Deputy Robert Troy: "When an Expressway service is removed, I suppose it is because it is not making money. I do not suggest the public transport service needs to make money. It needs to be subsidised but if it is not making money and the National Transport Authority, NTA, is tendering out a process, I assume it is subventing

---

".

Ms Anne Graham: "We would be subventing that service, yes".

Deputy Robert Troy: "Ultimately, the State will end up paying

---

".

Ms Anne Graham: "Yes".

Deputy Robert Troy: "

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and perhaps subventing a private operator to operate a service in some instances, although perhaps not in that instance. When Bus Éireann moved out of Portlaoise, a private operator was brought in and subvented".

Ms Anne Graham: "That is right, under contract to us. We tendered for that service, and that service is managed directly by us. We pay for that service, and the payment covers the cost of the operation of the services. We retain the fare revenue to offset the cost of operating the services".



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Section of the discussion between Anne Graham and Imelda Munster

Deputy Imelda Munster: "The most telling aspect thus far this morning was the statement from the NTA about private operators where it said they were not obliged to continue a service if it is not commercially viable, that the licence can be withdrawn. Is that not what we have said all along? Is that not what we said was the difference between private operators and a public transport network? If we continue on the path we are on of axing public transport routes, we are leaving them at the behest of private operators who can withdraw their licence a week later if they wish. That is very significant because it adds to the argument of public transport being there as a public service to provide transport on routes that are not commercially viable".

"Would the NTA accept that the over-staturation of routes has contributed significantly to the financial crisis? It would be foolish not to but the NTA has been reluctant so far to accept that or to admit to it publicly. On the review of all the licences to private operators, would the NTA publish that review or could the committee have sight of it? It seems strange that, particularly on the loss-making routes, with all the goings on over the last three or four months, the NTA has not been forthright in pointing to this detailed review on all routes so we can have the details to scrutinise them. We could then determine whether the over-saturation is linked to the loss-making and so on. I wonder if we could get a commitment on that.

The NTA is the Government policy implementer and in implementing policy I am sure it would recognise that it has contributed to this financial crisis. Given the calls by the unions over the past three or four months to have all stakeholders around the table for negotiations, why has the NTA been so unwilling thus far to engage, especially in view of the fact that it is the implementer of the Government policy? It has been part of the problem in creating the crisis and I do not understand its reluctance thus far to helping to find a resolution".

"On the free travel pass, can the NTA confirm if there is a different subsidy given to private operators than to the public transport network? On the travel pass not being accepted on certain routes by certain private operators, would that not be something the NTA would have checked before granting a licence? Why grant a licence to a private operator which was unwilling to use the facility of the free travel pass? Does the NTA know the percentage of private operators who are not taking the free travel pass?

On route closures, can the NTA confirm how many routes it plans to close completely or how many are earmarked? The reason I am raising this issue is the Dublin to Derry route, I think it is called the X3. It is part of Government's National Framework Policy to integrate connectivity between Dublin and the north west and it seems that if the NTA goes ahead with closing the Dublin to Derry route it would be going against Government policy in this area. I am seeking the rationale behind that and all the other routes that it has identified. The NTA has not said what routes are involved and it would be helpful if it said which routes it had targeted and that it planned to axe in view of the adverse effect it will have on people across the community".



"I find it confusing that the NTA has said several times that while it plans to cut back on Bus Éireann services it will not leave any rural community behind. What is the plan there? It will not leave any rural community behind. Will there be a service that is free of charge? How is it going to provide a service or give a commitment to not leave rural Ireland behind if there is going to be a cost? If there is already a service available why is the NTA removing a service to replace it with another service that is going to cost possibly even more money?".

Ms Anne Graham: "The Deputy has asked me to address a number of issues. I indicated that a private operator which has a licence service is not obliged to continue that service if it is unviable on a commercial basis. It could be for other reasons that it would want to withdraw from the service. This is covered by the legislation under which we operate on behalf of the Government. There is no doubt that there is more protection for services that are subject to a PSO contract and any changes in regard to those services needs our approval. The only time we would want to consider that would be if we were not in a position to fund services. We try to protect as many public transport services as we can because it is in our interest to make sure there are as many people as possible using public transport, but we do not have the same level of control over a licence service as we do over a subsidised service".

"I do not accept that there is over-saturation on the intercity routes. We have introduced some competition in those markets because there has been a demand for it. There has been a demand for customers to have shorter journeys, using the motorway network to provide services from city to city, and there has been growth in that market because some operators have responded to that demand by seeking licences. In thinking about the public transport customer, we thought it was necessary to provide the licences related to those services".



"I am not sure what the Deputy means about carrying out a review of licensed operators. We have not carried out a review of the different services. We have undertaken a review of the legislation as it stands and what we would like to see in terms of changes to the legislation to ensure we have a better regulation of the licensed market. That is the review that has been carried out by the National Transport Authority, NTA. We have not looked at individual licences. We track them in that we know what licences exist and we seek basic information relating to those services to try to produce statistics on their growth, which we publish on a yearly basis. We have not carried out a detailed analysis of all the routes and we do not propose to do that at this stage".

Deputy Imelda Munster: "Could I propose, from the point of view of the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport, that the NTA would carry out such a review?".

Ms Anne Graham: "We could talk to the committee about what would be in that review. We would have to find out what members would expect of that kind of review".

Deputy Imelda Munster: "I have just outlined a review of all licences issued to private operators across all routes with a particular focus on loss-making routes".

Ms Anne Graham: "We would not have the information as to what is loss-making and what is not. That is the commercially sensitive information that is held by the operators. We do not have that information".

Deputy Imelda Munster: "I apologise, I am not talking about private operators; I am talking about the public transport network".

Ms Anne Graham: "The contracted services, not the licensed services. There is a difference between those services. We have the information associated with the network of contracted services that Bus Éireann provides but we do not have the commercial information relating to the licensed services that are provided under licence to the authority".

Deputy Imelda Munster: "Perhaps I am not making myself clear or perhaps Ms Graham is misunderstanding me. I am talking about the licences that were issued through the NTA to take over from the public transport network. In certain cities there are three bus services - Bus Éireann and two private operators - leaving at the same time. There are three licences on that particular route. I am asking for a review of all the licences issued on all the routes but with particular focus on those Bus Éireann routes that have suffered a financial loss since those licences came into effect. I do not think that it is that complex. I want a review of all the licences on all those routes from the day we started issuing licences. The NTA knows all this anyway, and that is why I said I found it strange that it has never been published".

Ms Anne Graham: "I am still at a loss as to what exactly we are looking at. We can provide the committee with a list of all the licences, the starting point and the timetables associated with them. That information is publically available. I am just not sure what other information is required by the Deputy".

Chairman: "To clarify, the Deputy is saying that the NTA has a number of routes on which Bus Éireann Expressway service is clearly making a loss".

Ms Anne Graham: "We do not know what those are. That information is held by Bus Éireann. Unless the company is about to withdraw a particular route, it does not identify to us which of those services are loss-making. That information rests with Bus Éireann".

Deputy Imelda Munster: "That is incredibly hard to believe. The NTA and Bus Éireann have been meeting regularly over the past months discussing this very crisis. How could the company define its financial crisis for 2014, 2015 and 2016 without giving a breakdown of the cause of its financial crisis? Did the NTA not ask what routes were loss-making and when those routes started to lose money?".

Ms Anne Graham: "We are responsible for the contract with Bus Éireann and that is side of its business we are most focussed on, which is the provision and the protection of its public service obligation, PSO, contracted service".

Deputy Imelda Munster: "We might have to go down the freedom of information route because it is incredible that there is such a reluctance to give a commitment to carry out a review. This has played a significant part in the development of this financial crisis in the first place. I have never witnessed anything like this".

Ms Anne Graham: "I am not being obstructive but all I am trying to do is to clarify exactly what the Deputy wants. We can certainly make available the information we have available on licensed services. We do not have any commercially sensitive information relating to its finances. That is not available".

Deputy Imelda Munster: "We are talking about a public transport network which uses public money".

Ms Anne Graham: "Including Bus Éireann's commercial services, which are Expressway, what we have now and what we have been given information about to assist us to prepare for the withdrawal of licences are the three routes that have been identified by Bus Éireann that are already in the public domain. They are the routes we are trying to assess to ascertain whether we can put in additional services. That is the information that we have. We do not have detailed information on what are the losses associated with those routes. That remains with the company because it is commercially sensitive information. We would not want to have that information and we would not want to have it for any other private operator either. That remains with the companies. We analyse general statistics on a yearly basis concerning services, passenger numbers, the growth in passenger numbers, whether they are wheelchair accessible services and general information related to the commercial licensed market. We do not seek any information related to the finances of those companies. That is why that information is not available. We will make available to this committee any information that we have available in terms of licensed services".

"The rationale for the decision to withdraw routes is again for Bus Éireann to make. It concerns that company's licences and commercial business and it makes the decision on what they withdraw and do not withdraw. Our responsibility is to ensure there is a public transport service and to put in place what might be replacement services. That will probably come at a cost to the State because we do not get those services for free. If we do expand the existing PSO network of services or if we have to tender services, that comes at a cost. Obviously that would be offset against revenue that would be accrued".

Deputy Imelda Munster: "Is it the case that the NTA is removing one service and replacing it with another?"

Ms Anne Graham: "We are not removing it".

Deputy Imelda Munster: "That is what Ms Graham just said".

Ms Anne Graham: "A decision in terms of removal is made by the commercial operator to remove the service if it considers it to be not viable. That is the decision Bus Éireann is making. What we are obliged to do is provide services. If there is a PSO in place, which we will determine, then we put in place services. There is a cost associated with those services. When we look at the overall public transport network, a proportion of that is provided by licensed operators and they do not charge the State for that other than a subsidy if they carry free travel. That comes at no overall subsidy to the State. If we were to provide services on foot of a withdrawal of those services, it comes at a cost to the State to provide a PSO. That is the network of services that we have in Ireland".

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Imelda is still spinning though, she is saying things like: "we are leaving them at the behest of private operators who can withdraw their licence a week later if they wish." which is still deception by omission. She is not being honest with the public here. Any commercial operator can do the same, be they semi-state, private or public. She is delibrately misleading the public by attempting to portray the privates commercial operators as having different rules to other commercial operators when it's simply not the case.

On one hand she is moaning that private operators can and can't do certain things, but on the other hand she is delibrately misleading the public by omitting the fact that Bus Eireann Expressway can do the very very same thing. She continues to keep talking about private operators being evil and the cause of all the problems yet in legislation they are treated exactly the same as Expressway. She is trying to paint a completely different picture from reality and confuse people that BE EW are discriminated against when they are simply not.

However what is clear is Munster is a huge supporter of Bus Eireann, I have and will always be a supporter of public transport. I hope that one day the likes of Munster decides one day that the benefits of a public transport system are worth supporting in the future and are more important than some ideological type war where she supports the side of the few rather than the many. Munster only looks at it from the point of view of a certain company and unfortunately is not looking at it from the point of view of public transport as a whole.

However what is clear that Anne does consider that BE-EW could be considered a private operator, outlined by the following quotes: "including Bus Éireann's commercial services, which are Expressway, what we have now and what we have been given information about to assist us to prepare for the withdrawal of licences are the three routes that have been identified by Bus Éireann that are already in the public domain. That remains with the company because it is commercially sensitive information. We would not want to have that information and we would not want to have it for any other private operator either."

Robert Troy comes better out of this than Munster, since he is at least not spinning as much as she is. Whilst the transcript makes it a little clearer, there is still lots of deception by omission where Munster still is trying to twist words and paint out the incorrect view that someone Expressway has a different rule book to other commercial operators when it simply isn't the case. She also is more concerned with the health of Bus Eireann, rather than the transport system as a whole.

schemingbohemia

I'm not sure whether it's ignorance or wilful spinning but Imelda Munster doesn't seem to know how Expressway works at all.

salonfire

According to the Irish Independent today, net staff costs increased by 107% during the boom years and fell by 8% after the crash.

Plenty of fat to be trimmed off the pork bellies yet.

Bass Reeves

What is even more interesting is she spins about the right of a commercial company to withdraw a liciences if it is loss making. Now here is the nub of the matter this is exactly what Expressway are doing with the Clonmel/Dublin, Westport/Athlone and Dublin/Derry routes. So it is BE a semi state body that is leaving customer's high and dry.

What should happen is these routes should be put to tender to see if another operator would provide the service as a commercial entity and failing that let it be rendered with a service obligation to the lowest commercial bidder.

joeysoap

Might be mis-understanding this, but could anybody tender for a route, get the contract and then drop intermediate stops off that route within a few months? Said operator never really intending to make those stops but including them only to make the tender 'attractive' knowing they could drop them easily enough within a short timeframe. Is that possible?

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joeysoap wrote: »

Might be mis-understanding this, but could anybody tender for a route, get the contract and then drop intermediate stops off that route within a few months? Said operator never really intending to make those stops but including them only to make the tender 'attractive' knowing they could drop them easily enough within a short timeframe. Is that possible?

No, quite simply because there are no licenses for tendered services. Services that are tendered, such as those operated under the Bus Eireann name and not Expressway, are operated under contract to the National Transport Authority on a timetable which is controlled by the NTA and are protected from any direct competition under the Public Transport Regulation Act (2009).

If it is a commercial service, wants to drop intermediate Towns they can as long as long as there are not two Interurban Express licenses on that corridor already and the services are not deemed to be predatory services in their timetabling against another Interurban Express service, yes they can drop stops. However to do this they would need to make an application to the National Transport Authority, which would approve the license if the times of the services are non predatory against other operators who operate Interurban Express services and there is a license available.

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Latest on Dublin Bus getting involved
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0227/855768-bus-eireann/

Meanwhile, the National Bus and Rail Union has warned Dublin Bus not to move their buses out of depots shared with Bus Éireann in order to avoid their staff being involved in potential flashpoints if industrial action commences at Bus Éireann.

Last Friday, asked whether this was a possibility, Dublin Bus said it was not planning movement of any of their services to other locations "at this time".

However, it noted it always looks at contingency plans in the event of industrial action.

In today's letter, NBRU General Secretary Dermot O'Leary expressed concern that Dublin Bus may "stand accused" of placing a number of its staff centre stage in the Bus Éireann dispute.

He acknowledged that while Dublin Bus might seek merit in making contingency plans to facilitate its own business, there is a real danger that others, particularly those whose livelihoods are under threat at Bus Éireann, might view such actions in a completely different light.

He stressed that the NBRU has advised members in Dublin Bus and Iarnród Éireann that it is not in official dispute with those companies, and will not condone any attempts to unlawfully impede Dublin Bus operations.

However, he also warned that "... the actions of Dublin Bus may, inadvertently at least, open up a new flank to what, even prior to its commencement, may become a very nasty industrial relations dispute."

He said the NBRU will not be a party to any intervention that, viewed through the prism of an impending industrial dispute, would be interpreted as a manoeuvre to frustrate Bus Éireann staff in their pursuance of a genuine trade dispute.

n97 mini

Can we devise a list of shared depots and DB services that run from them?

GM228

Isn't Broadstone the only shared depot, or rather seperated depots within the overall location but with a shared entrance.

The bigger issue would be shared BE/IE locations.