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Bust Éireann
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schemingbohemia wrote: »You're doing the same thing that Troy and Munster did. You're conflating two separate things.
Currently if services by Expressway (Non PSO) drop towns then there's nothing NTA can do, the exact same as any other licensed service.
If there's no licensed service to a town and there is a public transport need, then the NTA will examine tendering for it for inclusion in PSO services. BE will be able to tender for this like any other bus company just like they were allowed tender for the previous routes that had been Expressway and changed to PSO.
If there's no demand for a service then there may be no need for a PSO service either. Or if it's already being served by another PSO service - Rail (Westport - Athlone) then there's no need for a doubling up of PSO services.
BE management failed to adapt to the new licensing arrangements, staff make it impossible for real change to be affected to the cost base due to the over-payment going on and strict adherence to "custom and practise".If I wanted to spin for the opposite side to Munster, I'd write it like this:
"There is no guarantee that intermediate Towns currently served by private operators, on different routes, will still definitely be served by any public operator, if public operators are to take over any routes that are currently served by private operators."
But that is spin, implying something that is not true by only telling half the story and It's still deception by omission and now you are doing the same because you are being entangled in either their web of spin or their lack of knowledge of the situation, since it is clearly one or the other who are only telling half of the story.
The correct way to look at it, re-writing your post to the reality i:
"There is no guarantee that any intermediate Towns currently served by Bus Eireann Expressway or any other Commercial operator, on different routes, will still definitely be served by any commercial operator, be that Bus Eireann Expressway, or a private commercial operator, if Bus Eireann Expressway or another commercial operator are able to take over any routes that are currently served by Bus Eireann Expressway or a private commercial operator."
Bus Eireann Expressway and private operators are both considered exactly the same and have exactly the same rules under the eyes of the regulator in every respect. The politicians might not be saying it but it is true.
I am referring to the possibility that private companies would have no interest in serving many of the routes currently operated by Bus Éireann, for example bus services connecting villages to towns within counties, in order to get separate bus services from larger towns to cities like Dublin or Cork.
Bus Éireann operates services like these in rural areas.
There are excellent services run by private coaches, but they serve locations for more specific reasons, than many of Bus Éireann's services.
For example, there are numerous coaches that operate throughout the night between Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Kilkenny, all going to Dublin Airport, and Dublin City Centre. These companies include Aircoach, Dublin Coach, JJ Kavanagh's, Citylink, and Go Bus.
I don't think they'd run these services throughout the night, if they weren't serving Dublin Airport.
If they didn't serve Dublin Airport, would they operate as many services to and from Dublin, at night, or even during the day?
Some of Dublin Coaches services, for example from Portlaoise, also serve intermediate towns on the way to the Red Cow Luas stop where they have a service to Dublin Airport. Would Dublin Coach serve these towns, if it didn't serve Dublin City or Dubin Airport?
http://www.dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/N7-bus-dublin-airport-to-portlaoise.php#timetable
http://www.dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M7-bus-ennis-tralee-killarney-limerick-dublin-city.php
Robert Troy highlighted that what Shane Ross had stated, regarding how routes taken over from Bus Éireann might be operated, differed, to what was stated by Anne Graham.
Deputy Robert Troy: "Ms Graham spoke about route 5. What area did that route cover?".
Ms Anne Graham: "Route 5 went from Waterford to Dublin via Enniscorthy. It was an Expressway route that was terminated in 2015. A number of towns, including Enniscorthy, would have had reductions in services and we served that by extending one of the public service obligation, PSO, services, which was route 132. We then tendered with Wexford Local Link. It introduced a number of rural transport services to connect the towns of Clonroche, Bunclody and Tullow to Enniscorthy and New Ross and then for onward connections on route 4, which is an Expressway service. As we manage the rural transport programme and the contracts with Bus Éireann on its PSO, we can make a number of different interventions to ensure that local communities continue to have services. In some of those towns there was an increased level of service and connectivity as a result of the provisions we made".
Deputy Robert Troy: "Ms Graham would seem to be at variance with the Minister who said on a radio programme in Waterford on 17 February that replacement services by the NTA may not be as frequent or as comfortable as those of Bus Éireann".
Ms Anne Graham: "Obviously, we would try to ensure that the towns are served to the level the demand requires. It may not be the case that one would have the same level of service as an Expressway but it could be the case that one might have better connections to one's local towns or the larger towns with good onward connectivity. Our responsibility is to ensure that the level of connectivity is continued to the level required for the communities in those areas".
Deputy Robert Troy: "When an Expressway service is removed, I suppose it is because it is not making money. I do not suggest the public transport service needs to make money. It needs to be subsidised but if it is not making money and the National Transport Authority, NTA, is tendering out a process, I assume it is subventing
".
Ms Anne Graham: "We would be subventing that service, yes.
Deputy Robert Troy: Ultimately, the State will end up paying
Ms Anne Graham: Yes".
Deputy Robert Troy: "
and perhaps subventing a private operator to operate a service in some instances, although perhaps not in that instance. When Bus Éireann moved out of Portlaoise, a private operator was brought in and subvented".
Ms Anne Graham: "That is right, under contract to us. We tendered for that service, and that service is managed directly by us. We pay for that service, and the payment covers the cost of the operation of the services. We retain the fare revenue to offset the cost of operating the services".
In a motion, moved by Robert Troy on Tuesday 31st January 2017, Thomas Pringle TD, spoke of the possibility that private companies would have no interest in operating services in intermediate stops, which are currently served on Bus Éireann routes.
Thomas Pringle - in this Dail debate on 31st January 2017 - and Imelda Munster on LMFM on 23rd February, have both highlighted that Bus Éireann has been receiving less and less government support in recent years for its services.
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-01-31a.634
He said:
"I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important and timely debate on the motion. In terms of the operations carried out by Bus Éireann and the public service obligation, the latter cannot be removed from the Expressway service in such a clean manner because it provides a huge public service to many citizens".
"This must be taken into account when considering the cost of the service.
A total of 30% of Expressway passengers have the free travel pass. As stated by Deputy Brendan Ryan, the Department of Social Protection pays only 41% of the cost of a ticket for a passenger using free transport. Bus Éireann has a disproportionate number of free travel pass passengers on its Expressway service as against private operators because it operates with a large social responsibility and part of its service is social".
"It provides services to provincial towns and villages which private operators will simply will not provide. Because private operators go from point to point such as from Galway to Dublin along the motorway network, they have a disproportionately high number of paying passengers who pay to travel from Dublin to Galway, without any thought being given to the service element required to be met by Bus Éireann. This is missing from the argument and the Government is deliberately abdicating its responsibility".
"The NTA refuses to recognise this because, as has been said, it is driven by a market-led competition mantra and grants licences to compete with Bus Éireann services which affect the future viability of Bus Éireann. We have to properly subsidise and support Bus Éireann and recognise once and for all the social aspect of the business it operates as being viable and desirable.
How much has the Expressway business subsidised other Bus Éireann business as PSO funding has been reduced over many years? ".0 -
Hmm .......walls of text on this one, excellent discourse.
However bottom line, company is going bust, the unions won't budge, only one answer......let it go to the wall.
Don't waste taxpayers money.
No wall of text there.0 -
Its times like this that you thank god FF aren't the senior party! Simply would be open the cheque book...0
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How can a company make profits on non-profitable but necessary routes? Or should the people in need of services be the ones to lose out in the long run?Brendan Bendar wrote: »Hmm .......walls of text on this one, excellent discourse.
However bottom line, company is going bust, the unions won't budge, only one answer......let it go to the wall.
Don't waste taxpayers money.
No wall of text there.0 -
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horseburger wrote: »I am referring to the possibility that private companies would have no interest in serving many of the routes currently operated by Bus Éireann, for example bus services connecting villages to towns within counties.
Bus Eireann run rural and unviable services under the Bus Eireann name because they are paid to do so and given free vehicles to do so under contract to the state. Privates don't because up until now with very very limited exception they were not given free vehicles or subsidy to do so. That's it. This belief that Bus Eireann runs rural routes out of some romatic notion they care about people is false. They do so because the state pays them to.
I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make, but you have to recognize that Bus Eireann and Expressway are two different arms, operating in very different environments, to to very different rule books and regulations. You cannot compare a Bus Eireann service to a private commercial service. They are two totally different things and it's like comparing apples with oranges and you're falling for the trap that the politicians want you to.
Bus Éireann operates services like these in rural areas.If they didn't serve Dublin Airport, would they operate as many services to and from Dublin, at night, or even during the day?
You will find that the traffic going to the airport is far less than the traffic which is going to the city center. That is why reliefs on a lot of those routes tend to be short workings that only run from city center to city center and do not serve the airport and the fact that some operators have scheduled services that at certain times don't serve the airport.Deputy Robert Troy: "Ms Graham would seem to be at variance with the Minister who said on a radio programme in Waterford on 17 February that replacement services by the NTA may not be as frequent or as comfortable as those of Bus Éireann".
Ms Anne Graham: "Obviously, we would try to ensure that the towns are served to the level the demand requires. It may not be the case that one would have the same level of service as an Expressway but it could be the case that one might have better connections to one's local towns or the larger towns with good onward connectivity. Our responsibility is to ensure that the level of connectivity is continued to the level required for the communities in those areas"
I think that it is entirely sensible to provision services based on demand and need for said services and destination. That is the sign of an operation that is efficient. The fact was a lot of these intercity services for some time around 2010 a combination of 80% people going end to end and 20% people going to and from the Towns.
What has happened now is that it has been proven that the services before were not meeting the needs of the majority of the public? How can we tell this? Because of the fact that volumes on many of the key corridors have gone up hugely since the start of motorway services. This means that previously a large number of passengers were being disadvantaged for a smaller number of passengers between the Towns which were being overserved.
What I object to is this silly talk about the local towns now having minibuses and a smaller coach rather than a long coach and this being a downgrading of the service. Every service should have a vehicle and capacity which matches its demand and passengers. If there are only single digit or low two digit passengers on some of these rural services than a vehicle size should be reflected to accept that.
What rural passengers have to realise is that if you are living in a small village between for example Dublin and Cork where there are a couple of thousand people living there you should not expect to get the same level of service that two cities get between each other. Certainly you should still get a service, but at the same time that service should reflect on the population, it's needs, the demand and the cost effectiveness of such services.
Forcing two cities with over a million people in them between them, to go through every single town en-route to please a few thousand people in villages is not the sign of a good public transport system or one that delivers for as many of the public as possible. Those people in the villages still need services and should be provided them, if they are not commercially viable then a PSO route needs to be created, but the few should not hold back the majority.Thomas Pringle - in this Dail debate on 31st January 2017 - and Imelda Munster on LMFM on 23rd February, have both highlighted that Bus Éireann has been receiving less and less government support in recent years for its services.
Incorrect, state support and capital investment increased both in 2015 and 2016 and is said to go up again this year. again the politicians are spinning here and are being selective with years they select in order to try and make a misleading political point."This must be taken into account when considering the cost of the service A total of 30% of Expressway passengers have the free travel pass. As stated by Deputy Brendan Ryan, the Department of Social Protection pays only 41% of the cost of a ticket for a passenger using free transport. Bus Éireann has a disproportionate number of free travel pass passengers on its Expressway service as against private operators because it operates with a large social responsibility and part of its service is social".
For social services the company is fully remunerated and vehicles provided for free for it by the state. These services are not losing money. Private operators who started route licenses before 2010 were eligible for the free travel pass and operate in exactly the same kind of conditions as BE. In addition, private operators are not allowed to compete with PSO services.It provides services to provincial towns and villages which private operators will simply will not provide.
Incorrect - there are many examples of this, in some cases, the private operators make more stops than Bus Eireann does. Look at JJ Kavanagh for instance who on many of their routes service stops which BE have abandoned. In addition, a lot of the services the privates provide, are the ones that Bus Eireann claimed would never be successful because their passenger numbers would never stack up,.
So the reverse can be argued, the privates provide services that customers have took up in their hundreds of thousands every year that Bus Eireann said would never work out, would be dead after a few months and that they would be unviable and that they can never take that risk with their business, so the reverse can be argued too, that privates provide services that many people want but they simply won't provide.
In addition a lot of the Expressway route they serve smaller places on because of the fact that they couldn't get licenses for non stop services because they were too slow to apply so they were left with little choice but to continue serving these or withdraw. Bad management plays a large part of the problem with Expressway, the idea that they didn't change routes because of some idea that they want to serve these places is romantic, but ultimately it's a wet unrealistic dream by some of the extremists on the left.Because private operators go from point to point such as from Galway to Dublin along the motorway network, they have a disproportionately high number of paying passengers who pay to travel from Dublin to Galway, without any thought being given to the service element required to be met by Bus Éireann.
There is no service element required to be met by Bus Eireann. On the Dublin to Galway route they have the same requirements as any other commercial operator and can withdraw or modify routes in line with the same rules that other commercial operator has. This is something you continually refuse to understand. For such routes, there is no difference between requirements for BE Expressway and other commercial operator, the politicians are misleading you when you are simply posting what they say despite the fact it's ainaccurate.The NTA refuses to recognise this because, as has been said, it is driven by a market-led competition mantra and grants licences to compete with Bus Éireann services which affect the future viability of Bus Éireann.
No the NTA is driven by it's obligation to the travelling public, and when they assess an application for a commercial licence, they do so with this in mind without fear or intimidation from anyone or favour to any particular organisation and gives equal treatment to both semi state commercial companies and private commercial companies as part of the 2009 Public Transport Regulation act.
The regulator is there to look after public transport provision, they are not there to nanny Bus Eireann and neither should they be. It is unfortunate that some politicians are more interested in protecting Bus Eireann than the traveling public, because I believe that public transport itself is far more important and bigger than one company.We have to properly subsidise and support Bus Éireann and recognise once and for all the social aspect of the business it operates as being viable and desirable..
No, we have to properly ensure that public transport in this country is run in the interests of the taxpayer and the people who use public transport or would consider using it in this country. It is rather telling that in all of the quotes you have posted the traveling public and what they require are not mentioned once. Only what is good for Bus Eireann.
I believe in a public transport system that is run for people and where the bigger picture is more important than what is best for any particular company. The states job is to do that and that alone, not to prop up companies, but look at the bigger picture.0 -
Arcade_Tryer wrote: »How can a company make profits on non-profitable but necessary routes? Or should the people in need of services be the ones to lose out in the long run?
That's the line a lot of people like to peddle.
Bottom line......
BE cost base way above any competitors.
Screw the taxpayer would seem to be the way out?
Seems O'Leary is banking on getting other 'wings' involved .
Let's hope the Govt. who are fighting for fair play for the taxpayer have the balls to face these people down.
It's what the country needs, we need to make a stand .0 -
Arcade_Tryer wrote: »How can a company make profits on non-profitable but necessary routes? Or should the people in need of services be the ones to lose out in the long run?
They are not losing money on those routes. They are paid in full by the state for them under contract.
They are never, and have never been under threat.0 -
That statement appears to be written by a poster on here :eek:
Linkunion, Feb 1 wrote:Unions will exclude Bus Éireann passengers with no alternative transport services from strikes when they announce a game plan for industrial action this week.
Didn't take long for that promise to be broken,nbru wrote:Members will be aware that Bus Éireann staff may soon be engaged in an all-out indefinite strike0 -
Brendan Bendar wrote: »Hmm .......walls of text on this one, excellent discourse.
However bottom line, company is going bust, the unions won't budge, only one answer......let it go to the wall.
Don't waste taxpayers money.
No wall of text there.
I included the texts to indicate, and include the link for - the Dáil debates to which I was referring, rather than making statements with no references to what i was writing about, and the Dail debates, to which I referred.
Can you provide details, or examples of other countries, to show how letting Bus Éireann "go to the wall" would be a positive move?
It would seem, that in England, increasing privatisation, at the expense of previously run public bus services, wasn't all positive:
https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/buses
http://www.transportforqualityoflife.com/u/files/160314_Building_a_World-class_Bus_System_extended%20summary%20report_FINAL4_for_web.pdf
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/21/why-nobody-complaining-bus-services-deregulation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_deregulation_in_Great_Britain#Bus_wars0 -
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horseburger wrote: »I included the texts to indicate, and include the link for - the Dáil debates to which I was referring, rather than making statements with no references to what i was writing about, and the Dail debates, to which I referred.
Can you provide details, or examples of other countries, to show how letting Bus Éireann "go to the wall" would be a positive move?
It would seem, that in England, increasing privatisation, at the expense of previously run public bus services, wasn't all positive:
https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/buses
http://www.transportforqualityoflife.com/u/files/160314_Building_a_World-class_Bus_System_extended%20summary%20report_FINAL4_for_web.pdf
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/21/why-nobody-complaining-bus-services-deregulation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_deregulation_in_Great_Britain#Bus_wars
No , sorry I can't.
All I can produce is figures which say the company is losing money hand over fist and unless action is taken they will go to the wall.
That all I can do.0 -
horseburger wrote: »Can you provide details, or examples of other countries, to show how letting Bus Éireann "go to the wall" would be a positive move?
It would seem, that in England, increasing privatisation, at the expense of previously run public bus services, wasn't all positive:
There's several huge differences between the UK and Ireland bus markets.
In the UK there is a full de-regulated market, that simply does not exist here. In the UK operators can register a service and run buses whenever they want on whatever routes they want without any licenses or application process. Essentially it is a free for all and operators can do whatever they like.
This has led to Bus Wars and predatory pricing, predatory services and people running at below cost etc. None of that is possible in Ireland because we do not have de-regulation so using the UK model as an example isn't even valid because we don't have that model here and nobody has even proposed it.
The one thing I will say in the UK though, is that costs are much lower than they would be in Ireland because of this and in many cities the overwhelming majority of the services are operated commercially and without public support, whereas in Dublin for instance, every single city bus route is deemed to be needing public funding.0 -
The problem with Bus Eireann is only partly down to staffing costs. Most of the problems are down to awful management and failure to modernise.
Take the Clonmel to Dublin bus (which will cease to be on Monday) for example. For years it used the old road from Kilenny-Castlecomer-Athy-Kilcullen-Naas-Dublin. This was part of the T6 truck road to Cork which predated the N8/9!! It was only when Dublin Coach started running Direct from Waterford via Kilkenny they decided to change.
Expressway is the biggest loss maker because it is not Express in any way!
Ticket prices are far too awkward.
The tickets themselves are laughable.
If you book online, the email explains how the driver processes online tickets.0 -
Bus Eireann run rural and unviable services under the Bus Eireann name because they are paid to do so and given free vehicles to do so under contract to the state. Privates don't because up until now with very very limited exception they were not given free vehicles or subsidy to do so. That's it. This belief that Bus Eireann runs rural routes out of some romatic notion they care about people is false. They do so because the state pays them to.
I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make, but you have to recognize that Bus Eireann and Expressway are two different arms, operating in very different environments, to to very different rule books and regulations. You cannot compare a Bus Eireann service to a private commercial service. They are two totally different things and it's like comparing apples with oranges and you're falling for the trap that the politicians want you to.
Bus Éireann operates services like these in rural areas.
You will find that the traffic going to the airport is far less than the traffic which is going to the city center. That is why reliefs on a lot of those routes tend to be short workings that only run from city center to city center and do not serve the airport and the fact that some operators have scheduled services that at certain times don't serve the airport.
I think that it is entirely sensible to provision services based on demand and need for said services and destination. That is the sign of an operation that is efficient. The fact was a lot of these intercity services for some time around 2010 a combination of 80% people going end to end and 20% people going to and from the Towns.
What has happened now is that it has been proven that the services before were not meeting the needs of the majority of the public? How can we tell this? Because of the fact that volumes on many of the key corridors have gone up hugely since the start of motorway services. This means that previously a large number of passengers were being disadvantaged for a smaller number of passengers between the Towns which were being overserved.
What I object to is this silly talk about the local towns now having minibuses and a smaller coach rather than a long coach and this being a downgrading of the service. Every service should have a vehicle and capacity which matches its demand and passengers. If there are only single digit or low two digit passengers on some of these rural services than a vehicle size should be reflected to accept that.
What rural passengers have to realise is that if you are living in a small village between for example Dublin and Cork where there are a couple of thousand people living there you should not expect to get the same level of service that two cities get between each other. Certainly you should still get a service, but at the same time that service should reflect on the population, it's needs, the demand and the cost effectiveness of such services.
Forcing two cities with over a million people in them between them, to go through every single town en-route to please a few thousand people in villages is not the sign of a good public transport system or one that delivers for as many of the public as possible. Those people in the villages still need services and should be provided them, if they are not commercially viable then a PSO route needs to be created, but the few should not hold back the majority.
Incorrect, state support and capital investment increased both in 2015 and 2016 and is said to go up again this year. again the politicians are spinning here and are being selective with years they select in order to try and make a misleading political point.
For social services the company is fully remunerated and vehicles provided for free for it by the state. These services are not losing money. Private operators who started route licenses before 2010 were eligible for the free travel pass and operate in exactly the same kind of conditions as BE. In addition, private operators are not allowed to compete with PSO services.
Incorrect - there are many examples of this, in some cases, the private operators make more stops than Bus Eireann does. Look at JJ Kavanagh for instance who on many of their routes service stops which BE have abandoned. In addition, a lot of the services the privates provide, are the ones that Bus Eireann claimed would never be successful because their passenger numbers would never stack up,.
So the reverse can be argued, the privates provide services that customers have took up in their hundreds of thousands every year that Bus Eireann said would never work out, would be dead after a few months and that they would be unviable and that they can never take that risk with their business, so the reverse can be argued too, that privates provide services that many people want but they simply won't provide.
In addition a lot of the Expressway route they serve smaller places on because of the fact that they couldn't get licenses for non stop services because they were too slow to apply so they were left with little choice but to continue serving these or withdraw. Bad management plays a large part of the problem with Expressway, the idea that they didn't change routes because of some idea that they want to serve these places is romantic, but ultimately it's a wet unrealistic dream by some of the extremists on the left.
There is no service element required to be met by Bus Eireann. On the Dublin to Galway route they have the same requirements as any other commercial operator and can withdraw or modify routes in line with the same rules that other commercial operator has. This is something you continually refuse to understand. For such routes, there is no difference between requirements for BE Expressway and other commercial operator, the politicians are misleading you when you are simply posting what they say despite the fact it's ainaccurate.
No the NTA is driven by it's obligation to the travelling public, and when they assess an application for a commercial licence, they do so with this in mind without fear or intimidation from anyone or favour to any particular organisation and gives equal treatment to both semi state commercial companies and private commercial companies as part of the 2009 Public Transport Regulation act.
The regulator is there to look after public transport provision, they are not there to nanny Bus Eireann and neither should they be. It is unfortunate that some politicians are more interested in protecting Bus Eireann than the traveling public, because I believe that public transport itself is far more important and bigger than one company.
No, we have to properly ensure that public transport in this country is run in the interests of the taxpayer and the people who use public transport or would consider using it in this country. It is rather telling that in all of the quotes you have posted the traveling public and what they require are not mentioned once. Only what is good for Bus Eireann.
I believe in a public transport system that is run for people and where the bigger picture is more important than what is best for any particular company. The states job is to do that and that alone, not to prop up companies, but look at the bigger picture.
I know Expressway is a different type of service to the general Bus Éireann services. I have also stated that the various private companies offer a very good service.
But I also wonder, how private companies can keep some services going, if on their routes where they don't serve intermediate towns, there is often only a handful of people on an particular service, for example an Aircoach service I got from Belfast recently.
I'm not talking about forcing long distance services to go through every town and village on their general routes.
I was saying that, there was no certainty in what Anne Graham said in the Joint Committee meeting, in her response to Robert Troy and Imelda Munster, that intermediate stops would continue to be served, in cases where private companies may take over particular routes that were served by Bus Éireann.0 -
Brendan Bendar wrote: »No , sorry I can't.
All I can produce is figures which say the company is losing money hand over fist and unless action is taken they will go to the wall.
That all I can do.
Do you not think that if you state that it should "go to the wall", that you should provide details to argue your case that letting it "go to the wall" would be a positive move?0 -
horseburger wrote: »But I also wonder, how private companies can keep some services going, if on their routes where they don't serve intermediate towns, there is often only a handful of people on an particular service, for example an Aircoach service I got from Belfast recently.
Lower cost base and more efficient rotas means that the amount of revenue you need to earn from a service overall over the course of a day is less than an operator with inefficient rotas and a high cost base. This is what Bus Eireann Expressway have been finding out over the last little while.I was saying that, there was no certainty in what Anne Graham said in the Joint Committee meeting, in her response to Robert Troy and Imelda Munster, that intermediate stops would continue to be served, in cases where private companies may take over particular routes that were served by Bus Éireann.
There is no certainty that that intermediate stops would continue to be served in cases where Bus Eireann Expressway or any other commercial operator takes over particular routes that were previously ran by Bus Eireann Expressway or any other commercial operator. That is the way things are, there is a level playing field, that is the point I am trying to make.
However the National Transport Authority have said on a number of occasions and they don't just talk the talk, they also walk the walk with this, that no community will be left behind and if commercial operators, such as Bus Eireann Expressway or private sector commercial operator withdraws services that leaves Towns unserved, Towns will be provided with a service to replace them that will take account of the demands and the needs of that community.0 -
Expressway is branded differently to Bus Eireann yet most routes have been merged from the Bus Eireann network. This makes no sense.
It should be treated as a completely different company. Drivers should be on different, lower paid contracts to reduce costs. Fares should be as simple as possible.
Bus Eireann would then be able to concentrate on serving the rural towns and villages. as well as offering less direct routes. Timetables should be synced so passengers have more options (Eg. If an Expressway bus runs every 2 hours, a Bus Eireann stopping at intermediate towns should run on the alternative hours in between)
Also:
Buses should accept contactless cards.
An App where you can buy tickets
The option of putting an online ticket on your leap card.0 -
horseburger wrote: »Do you not think that if you state that it should "go to the wall", that you should provide details to argue your case that letting it "go to the wall" would be a positive move?
What about losing €1.9 million for January.
Other than reducing costs or screwing the taxpayer I can't see a way out.
And I really don't want to pay to keep a bloated company in business.
Legacy conditions are so 1970.0 -
There's several huge differences between the UK and Ireland bus markets.
In the UK there is a full de-regulated market, that simply does not exist here. In the UK operators can register a service and run buses whenever they want on whatever routes they want without any licenses or application process. Essentially it is a free for all and operators can do whatever they like.
This has led to Bus Wars and predatory pricing, predatory services and people running at below cost etc. None of that is possible in Ireland because we do not have de-regulation so using the UK model as an example isn't even valid because we don't have that model here and nobody has even proposed it.
The one thing I will say in the UK though, is that costs are much lower than they would be in Ireland because of this and in many cities the overwhelming majority of the services are operated commercially and without public support, whereas in Dublin for instance, every single city bus route is deemed to be needing public funding.
Do you reckon there is a possibility of full deregulation in Ireland? What would stop it occurring?
In the Dail debates to which I referred, it was stated by some of the public representatives, that government support for Bus Éireann has decreased in recent years.
Imelda Munster stated in the debate on the Fianna Fáil motion on 31st January that:
"PSO funding has been slashed from €49 million in 2009 to €33 million this year. That is a huge cut in funding for a public service in which we were supposed to invest and enhance. The public transport network in Ireland has the lowest subvention level in Europe".
She added
"The workers did not cause that. The reason for this financial crisis is bad policy, poor decision-making and gross underfunding, yet recently, large severance packages were paid to the former CEO and top management. One wonders whether that was a reward for the crisis. Last week we questioned the new acting CEO who would not reveal his salary but confirmed the previous CEO was in receipt of a salary between €180,000 and €190,000. Let us compare that with the earnings of the average bus driver with 20 years' service who is on a meagre income of €624 per week. Where is the punishment for top management for mismanagement and bad policy making? The workers have been targeted. Bus workers with 20 years' experience on €624 are targeted but where is the punishment for those who created the crisis?".
"I stated the staff members were targeted but in fact they were given an ultimatum. Workers who did not create this crisis were given an ultimatum that was demeaning, inflammatory and provocative. It included a 30% cut in average pay. Sunday premium rates were slashed from 100% to 20%. The 100% reduction in shift payments means that workers will no longer be paid to work shifts. All drivers will have their current contracts changed".
"Privatisation will be introduced and the casualisation of work will commence. The company will decide when and where it brings in casual drivers. It can select from a pool of casual drivers with zero-hour contracts. The company will decide when to bring in outside contractors and the decision will be at its sole discretion".
"Bus Éireann workers can be left to sit at home while the company brings in contract drivers on the minimum wage. In the same breath, Bus Éireann classes itself as a premium employer. What we have seen transpire in recent weeks is a semi-State company being directed by the Government to instigate a race to the bottom for workers' rights and conditions. That is shocking".
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debate/?id=2017-01-31a.656
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-01-31a.634
Here are a few items on the issue of government support for Bus Éireann. They contend there has been a gradual decrease in support for Bus Éireann
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/if-bus-ireann-is-shut-down-rural-ireland-is-banjaxed-says-driver-35481238.html
http://www.socialistworkeronline.net/grant-thornton-report-and-financial-crisis-at-bus-eireann/
http://workersparty.ie/national-transport-authority-department-responsible-for-financial-crisis-at-bus-eireann/
In this item, in The Journal, Imelda Munster is quoted as saying "Whatever way you want to dress it up, this is the start of a privatisation plan".
http://www.thejournal.ie/expressway-shane-ross-3010823-Oct2016/
An RTE news item, dated Tuesday 31st January 2017, states that "Bus Éireann has presented three restructuring plans to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, its CIE parent company and the New ERA government body since 2015 - but none have been accepted, resulting in losses continuing to accumulate".
"This is revealed in a Bus Éireann document marked commercially sensitive and confidential entitled "Bus Éireann Existence Plan: For discussion with the Department of Transport Tourism and Sport" dated 20 September 2016".
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0130/848713-bus-eireann-document/0 -
Are PSO routes ever put out to tender, or does BE get them by default?0
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Brendan Bendar wrote: »What about losing €1.9 million for January.
Other than reducing costs or screwing the taxpayer I can't see a way out.
And I really don't want to pay to keep a bloated company in business.
Legacy conditions are so 1970.
I asked you to provide an example, to show where letting it "go to the wall", would be a positive move.
You haven't answered that question.0 -
So in relation to the X7 Clonmel service, if the worst comes to the worst and no more BE on this route- what are the chances of say Dublin Coach stepping in here? They already do Kilkenny/Waterford to Dublin, they could take up the slack by adding some extra services to/from Clonmel or feeder services?
How likely is it that it will come to this drastic conclusion? Very?
Once they start doing this then, other routes will become vulnerable and so on?0 -
horseburger wrote: »I asked you to provide an example, to show where letting it "go to the wall", would be a positive move.
You haven't answered that question.
I'm sorry , I have.
Not wasting taxpayers money on a basket case would be very positive in my opinion.0 -
Brendan Bendar wrote: »I'm sorry , I have.
Not wasting taxpayers money on a basket case would be very positive in my opinion.
You know well, that I asked you to give me an example of another place where letting a public bus company, and its services "go to the wall", resulted in an improvement of bus services.
The items I included, as links in my post, argue the case, that overall in England and UK, taking away the public bus transport services in 1985 and 1986, and rail services in the 1994-1997 period, have led to much negative aspects to the bus and train services.
https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/buses
https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/railways
http://www.transportforqualityoflife.com/u/files/120630_Rebuilding_Rail_Final_Report_print_version.pdf0 -
So in relation to the X7 Clonmel service, if the worst comes to the worst and no more BE on this route- what are the chances of say Dublin Coach stepping in here? They already do Kilkenny/Waterford to Dublin, they could take up the slack by adding some extra services to/from Clonmel or feeder services?
How likely is it that it will come to this drastic conclusion? Very?
Once they start doing this then, other routes will become vulnerable and so on?
Might see a boost in demand for the Limerick Junction to Waterford train service.0 -
One question, do you have any connection to Sinn Fein or Imelda Munster? If you keep saying what she says all of the time, in every post it makes it look like you are her or someone connected to her and if you do have a conflict of interest you really should register it.horseburger wrote: »Do you reckon there is a possibility of full deregulation in Ireland? What would stop it occurring?
No - because the only people who think it will is the unions who are scaremongering people. No licensing authority has ever said that it would happen. That is the whole reason there is a Transport Regulation Act 2009 to prevent it. Why would a regulator be formed if the plan was to de-regulate? It makes no sense.In the Dail debates to which I referred, it was stated by some of the public representatives, that government support for Bus Éireann has decreased in recent years.
Imelda Munster stated in the debate on the Fianna Fáil motion on 31st January that:
"PSO funding has been slashed from €49 million in 2009 to €33 million this year. That is a huge cut in funding for a public service in which we were supposed to invest and enhance. The public transport network in Ireland has the lowest subvention level in Europe".
Just because someone says it in the Dail doesn't mean it's true. Bus Eireann's CASH subvention was increased from €33m in 2013 to €34m in 2014, to €40m in 2016. Whilst the subsidy was cut back in 2009, services were also cut back, so of course the fact is that they got less money, any contract works like that and it should as well since the payment is in return for services provided, less services = less money.
Also the other spin with this is that in most other European countries operators pay for their own vehicles to run the services. In Ireland that is not the case. Operators have vehicles bought for them as capital investment and of course the people who claim that Ireland subsidy is low forget the tens of millions of capital investment the country makes on their behalf of which otherwise the company would have to find the funds for itself.
BE got €50m of investment in new vehicles last year and Dublin Bus also got around €40m in capital investment as well in buses. Also the NTA does a lot of things which operators in Europe have to fund themselves, which takes some costs out of the business as well, so you need to look at the overall taxpayer contribution to those services, not just the cash subsidy since cash is only one part of the taxpayer contribution.Bus workers with 20 years' experience on €624 are targeted but where is the punishment for those who created the crisis?
Interesting that when referring to their own pay they only quote basic pay but....It included a 30% cut in average pay.
....when referring to the cuts they quote the overall cut from the take home pay.
Dishonest figures at the very best.While the company brings in contract drivers on the minimum wage. In the same breath, Bus Éireann classes itself as a premium employer. What we have seen transpire in recent weeks is a semi-State company being directed by the Government to instigate a race to the bottom for workers' rights and conditions. That is shocking".
More scaremongering, I don't know of any bus driver who is on minimum wage with a reputable large company. This is meaningless rhetoric which has nothing to back it up and no foundation. I'm not quite sure where your posts are going, but you seem to be a mouthpiece for Munster, if you are her or are a serving TD, why not just come out and say it?An RTE news item, dated Tuesday 31st January 2017, states that "Bus Éireann has presented three restructuring plans to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, its CIE parent company and the New ERA government body since 2015 - but none have been accepted, resulting in losses continuing to accumulate".
More meaningless words. Maybe there are extremely valid reasons for rejecting such plan. Maybe the demands that were made by the company were unrealistic and bad for the taxpayers, the traveling public and the people in this country. The one thing that Munster is very good at is speaking a lot of rhetoric and a lot of vague and misleading and spun statements without any real back-up to any of them0 -
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So in relation to the X7 Clonmel service, if the worst comes to the worst and no more BE on this route- what are the chances of say Dublin Coach stepping in here? They already do Kilkenny/Waterford to Dublin, they could take up the slack by adding some extra services to/from Clonmel or feeder services?
JJ Kavanagh operate on that route.0 -
horseburger wrote: »You know well, that I asked you to give me an example of another place where letting a public bus company, and its services "go to the wall", resulted in an improvement of bus services.
The items I included, as links in my post, argue the case, that overall in England and UK, taking away the public bus transport services in 1985 and 1986, and rail services in the 1994 1997 period, have led to much negative aspects of the bus and train services.
https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/buses
https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/railways
http://www.transportforqualityoflife.com/u/files/120630_Rebuilding_Rail_Final_Report_print_version.pdf
Any company losing €1.9 a month deserves to go to the wall
Do you seriously expect the taxpayer to bankroll legacy conditions and ignore the fact that the transport industry has moved on from the 1985 and 1986 .
Would Aer Lingus still be viable if it didn't "see the light" and move into the 21st century?
Can't have way above industry norms of sick leave and absenteeism and expect the taxpayer to endorse that rubbish.
Time someone stood up for those who foot the bills and dump this rhetoric and cant.0 -
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Strike on Monday.
Adios BE.0
This discussion has been closed.
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