Bust Éireann

oppenheimer1

n97 mini wrote: »

Still can't see it ending in any pay cuts, job losses or other real change at the company. And I'm still convinced the taxpayer will end up footing more of the bill.

I can see it going to the brink in government though with FF threatening to pull support of the minister doesn't produce the chequebook. Too many rural constituents will be looking for "dem up in Dublin" to cough up.

FF are saying publicly that they want BÉ saved but that is just posturing. It would be politically advantageous if BÉ were to go to the wall so they can say to rural voters that they would never have let it happen. It may give FF enough of a bump in the polls to be confident of going for an election on a BÉ Nua platform and be able to go into a coalition with a smaller party.

There will be no winners from this here. If BÉ survives, commercial services will be scaled back massively. BÉ fails, there will be a period where large swathes of the country will be without bus services until alternatives are put in place. If Expressway is sold off, well the drivers and staff of BÉ that are transferred out and have to face the chill wind outside the semi state will then be the ones that suffer. The final option is of course the bailout - while I cannot see how this can be legal, were it to happen the the taxpayer would be the biggest loser, ending up overpaying (yet again) for an inefficient public service.

Its not the best menu on offer.

gbob

devnull wrote: »

I simply believe they are trying to make the taxpayer get value for money. Simply put the working practices in that company are outdated and not using taxpayers money in a sustainable way.



Expressway has been a brand for a lot, lot longer than that. The difference is that it has only been shouted about and painted in a very distinctive livery with a big EXPRESSWAY on the side whereas before it was cobranded with Bus Eireann on the side and a smaller Expressway logo.

Apparently the taxpayer funded PSO element is doing pretty ok, therefore presumably it is considered good value for money.

I realise expressway services have been around for a while, but as a brand in itself, no more than 2 years.

I've already outlined my working day previously in this thread, I'm not overpaid and underutilised. Certainly it has more layers of management than an onion has skins, that's where I'd start with the fat trimming.

Jamie2k9

gbob wrote: »

Apparently the taxpayer funded PSO element is doing pretty ok, therefore presumably it is considered good value for money.

I realise expressway services have been around for a while, but as a brand in itself, no more than 2 years.

I've already outlined my working day previously in this thread, I'm not overpaid and underutilised. Certainly it has more layers of management than an onion has skins, that's where I'd start with the fat trimming.

Doing ok??? More like private operators haven't had a chance to show the taxpayer and BE how to run it at lower costs and possibly better service....

gbob

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Doing ok??? More like private operators haven't had a chance to show the taxpayer and BE how to run it at lower costs and possibly better service....

The issue is Expressway, publicly funded PSO routes are reported to be performing well, in fact I recollect reading the majority of annual reports stating BE has met or exceeded NTA set targets for such.

oppenheimer1

end of the road wrote: »

really? have you saw their accounts to be able to make such a statement?

Yes. NBRU had €2.2m in the bank in 2013, so we'll say they have €3m now. DB revenue is in excess of €500k per day.

An illegal strike costing Six days ofrevenue for DB would but NBRU totally out of business.

I'd walk to work for the week, an hour and a half each way, if that was the outcome.

horseburger

devnull wrote: »

That's where you and me, and you and some other people disagree. Most people just care about the service provided and not about who provides it. The NTA are of the same view, they believe in delivering a service to the traveling public without fearing the unions and vested interests and without favour to any operator.

Just wondering, are you involved in the NTA?:)

"if you do have a conflict of interest you really should register it".

"why not just come out and say it?".:)

What you asked of me - the above two questions - in relation to the quotes I included in my previous posts from the Oireachtas Joint Committee debate dated Wednesday 22nd February, I could easily ask of you in relation to your comment about the NTA not "fearing the unions and vested interests".

In this RTE news item, dated Wednesday 22nd April 2015, the issues regularly mentioned by unions, regarding a possible decrease in payment for employees, as discussed on last Wednesday's Pat Kenny Show on TV3, is highlighted.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0422/695916-nta-bus/

It includes the following text:

"Unions at the two State bus companies fear that if 10% of bus routes are opened up to the private sector, it could trigger a deterioration in the pay and conditions of members".

"Ms Graham urged unions not to take industrial action, adding that the NTA would impose fines of €150,000 a day on Dublin Bus and €80,000 on Bus Éireann for failing to provide a service during the strikes".

"However, commenting on the loss of revenue to the companies, she acknowledged that they would save some money by not paying wages".

"She said that any Bus Éireann or Dublin Bus employees who had to transfer to private operators would have their terms and conditions preserved for the duration of the new contract".

"However, she acknowledged there was nothing to stop the private contractors from paying new recruits nothing more than the minimum wage".

"Ms Graham also confirmed that there was no obligation from EU legislation forcing their hand".

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/1032/121787/0/Pat-Kenny-Tonight

Yourself isit

When people talk about the private sector being cheaper they tend to think of wages not profit. If the expressway services are sold off to monopolistic private operators (monopolies per route) then there would be no reason for those private operators to keep low prices, or update their fleet.

For instance the x7 route had competition between bus eireann and kavanaghs - now it doesn't. They may increase prices.

The situation might be even worse on other routes if the expressway service collapses.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

Whether a route is sustainable on not depends on the cost of providing it versus the revenue that it brings in. If a route right now is mildly loss making, an operator with lower costs could turn it into a small surplus.

Nobody is denying that some routes will never be commercially sustainable and will need subvention no matter who operates them, but the public have a right to ensure that the companies are operated in a way that gives them value for money and makes the best use of both staffing and resources at their disposal.

I posted a document a few pages back with all of the changes in that are proposed, a number of those are very sensible and will produce a more customer focused company and ensure that the company operates using it's resources better, without reducing staffs core pay.

By the way, Transdev won a competitive tender. They did not get a contract by default.

they are contracted to provide the service. how they got the contract matters not in terms of the question i asked the poster.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Yes. NBRU had €2.2m in the bank in 2013, so we'll say they have €3m now. DB revenue is in excess of €500k per day.

An illegal strike costing Six days ofrevenue for DB would but NBRU totally out of business.

I'd walk to work for the week, an hour and a half each way, if that was the outcome.

i would be shocked if there wasn't a way to get around any such a situation. often the suggestion of shutting the company down and starting again gets suggested in a strike thread on here. there might be something along those lines the union could do. union refunds members before doing it, no money gets paid, new union.

Brendan Bendar

Given that BE management have produced an extensive document for reform which does not include direct cuts in overtime and shift allowances, but seems to concentrate mainly on work practices, it will be interesting to see what the Unions appetite for addressing the situation will be.

Will they engage in a meaningful way or concentrate on trying to put the burden on the back of the taxpayer.

Implementing these reforms will only delay the inevitable,however.

The cost base needs to significantly reduced to achieve any meaningful effect.

Let's hope for everyone's sake that common sense will prevail.

Del.Monte

n97 mini wrote: »

Might see a boost in demand for the Limerick Junction to Waterford train service.

That won't last long when the **** hits the fan at Irish Rail - coming very soon.

LeinsterDub

Yourself isit wrote: »

When people talk about the private sector being cheaper they tend to think of wages not profit. If the expressway services are sold off to monopolistic private operators (monopolies per route) then there would be no reason for those private operators to keep low prices, or update their fleet.

For instance the x7 route had competition between bus eireann and kavanaghs - now it doesn't. They may increase prices.

The situation might be even worse on other routes if the expressway service collapses.

The tenders are only for a certain period of time. If a private operators if found to be running crap buses and gouging they'll have their licence revoked or will not be considered for the next round of tendering on that route and others

devnull

gbob wrote: »

I realise expressway services have been around for a while, but as a brand in itself, no more than 2 years.

Sunch a new brand that there are vehicles from the 1980s using it:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7154/6818683645_9444babf80_b.jpg

I've already outlined my working day previously in this thread, I'm not overpaid and underutilised. Certainly it has more layers of management than an onion has skins, that's where I'd start with the fat trimming.

And there are a large number of management to lose their jobs:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bus-ireann-reject-claims-of-intention-to-ask-transport-minister-for-cash-35467816.html

A new document circulated at talks, and seen by the Irish Independent, reveals 120 job losses may be on the cards. The document lists plans to shed 60 managerial, executive and clerical roles, 40 engineering and maintenance jobs and 20 inspectors positions.

Whether you are overpaid and underutilized you are free to make your own mind up, however there are a number of staff who are working very inefficient rotas and then gaining large amounts in overtime every day. I'm not saying you are one of them however there are some.

As the report states its 1,378 drivers earned 47,000 euro on average last year and there were "a significant number earning over 60,000 euro". Drivers on average being paid for 9.4 hours per day (1.6 hours of this at overtime premium rates) when they only drive for 5.5 hours on scheduled services.:

end of the road wrote: »

they are contracted to provide the service. how they got the contract matters not in terms of the question i asked the poster.

It's very different because a competitive tender places pressure on a company to be more cost effective because at the end of the day if they are not someone else will be and will win the contract.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The tenders are only for a certain period of time. If a private operators if found to be running crap buses and gouging they'll have their licence revoked or will not be considered for the next round of tendering on that route and others

There will be provision for this whoever wins the tender, the 10% of routes that are being opened up will have performance requirements monitored by the regulator, whether Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann or another operate win them. If they do not provide set levels of services the contract will be revoked, it is a system designed to ensure the user gets a certain level of service and the taxpayer gets value for money.

devnull

gbob wrote: »

The issue is Expressway, publicly funded PSO routes are reported to be performing well, in fact I recollect reading the majority of annual reports stating BE has met or exceeded NTA set targets for such.

Indeed, that is the case however, currently targets are met by BE sending reports to the NTA, the new contracts stipulate that the services will be monitored independently and not by the operator themselves and will be harder hitting. The current Bus Eireann PSO contract wasn't drawn up by the NTA, and pre-dates their time.

horseburger wrote: »

Just wondering, are you involved in the NTA?:)

No conflict of interest whatsoever, I just think it's a bit strange you are doing Imelda Munsters canvassing for her by publicising every single quote she has made about the matter. I have never worked in the transport industry or been involved in politics, just a regular user of public transport on here, free of vested interests. It is clear however you have some involvement in the industry or politics though!

"Unions at the two State bus companies fear that if 10% of bus routes are opened up to the private sector, it could trigger a deterioration in the pay and conditions of members".

It could also trigger an improvement in service to the public and a better value service for the taxpayer and also limit the effect that future strikes had on the travelling public if it meant that not all services were ran by the same company?

The thing is compared to average market rates, the overall take home pay in BE and DB is higher than private operators and it's not just a little bit. Basic pay is totally not the issue,the extras and working practices and bad use of resources and rotas is.

I think that the taxpayer has a right to ensure that they get value for money for their funding of a publicly funded bus service. Having a monopoly win a contract every time never has been and never will be a way to extract the best business for the public.

Ms Graham urged unions not to take industrial action, adding that the NTA would impose fines of €150,000 a day on Dublin Bus and €80,000 on Bus Éireann for failing to provide a service during the strikes

Nobody is fined. If a company is contractually obliged to provide certain services to the state and does not provide those services, then they should not be paid for them, that is a fairly sensible idea and a lot of contracts in many industries would be on the basis that they pay for work and if the work is not done they do not pay. If the taxpayers pay for a service and the company doesn't deliver them, the company should not get the money.

She said that any Bus Éireann or Dublin Bus employees who had to transfer to private operators would have their terms and conditions preserved for the duration of the new contract However, she acknowledged there was nothing to stop the private contractors from paying new recruits nothing more than the minimum wage.

There is no requirement for any company anywhere in the state in any industry to pay more than the minimum wage. That is why it is called the minimum wage. There is no requirement for Bus Eireann to pay a staff member than minimum wage, there is no requirement for the Taioseachs office to pay someone more than minimum wage, there is no requirement to pay a banker or consultant than minimum wage, there is no requirement to pay a CEO more than minimum wage.

This is another red herring, just because the law allows someone to do something, doesn't mean that a company is going to do it. If you look at the article in the Irish Times recently in relation to salaries in transport companies, you will find that none of them are paying anything near minimum wage. But sure, believe the union rhetoric if you want that everyone will be on minimum wage,

Yourself isit wrote: »

When people talk about the private sector being cheaper they tend to think of wages not profit. If the expressway services are sold off to monopolistic private operators (monopolies per route) then there would be no reason for those private operators to keep low prices, or update their fleet.

For instance the x7 route had competition between bus eireann and kavanaghs - now it doesn't. They may increase prices. The situation might be even worse on other routes if the expressway service collapses.

No services are being sold off, they are subject to a licensing system of which has been discussed to death here. The licensing system rewards innovation whilst also putting the public first and stopping operators from acting in a predatory way or piggy backing on others investment in a way which would not benefit taxpayers. The licensing legislation allows for two operators per license type per corridor. It has proven a success as it has seen a large number of passengers who would never have used the bus switch to bus services. Some corridors are up by over 60%.

Bus Eireann on some corridors have the only commercial route? Guess what? On those routes the prices tend to be among the highest of any services on the Expressway Network since thy have no competition. But you are the belief that they would never do that. as for the comment about there is no reason to keep prices low, well, if costs get out of control and they don't invest in their service sooner or later, months or years down the line, someone may challenge them and they'll be left with a financial crisis. That's pretty much what happened to Bus Eireann.

As for the X7 route, who knows what will happen, but I can't see Kavanaghs hiking prices up on that route because they also have competition on part of it from Dublin Coach, what I can see happening however is an increase in services to allow for the passengers that will now most likely transfer services, meaning that people are able to avail of an additional number of services accepted by the same ticket, which may well save them money over traveling with one company and back with another involving another ticket to be purchased.

With Derry to Dublin Translink will also no doubt step in there and route 21 there are only two services a day and there are other services which connect with each other and also the train which serves a lot of those places and if that is not sufficent new services will be supplied by the NTA as a PSO to make sure that no community is left unserved.

As for the Limerick route that is served by Dublin Coach, the train and JJ Kavanagh and there is only a small cut to timetables by Bus Eireann, reflecting the fact that they are losing on that corridor to the other operators and the Dublin to Galway route there are non stop services from Citylink and GoBus, the train and multi-stop services by Citylink and still a large number that will continue to be operated by Bus Eireann, just at a slightly lower frequency.

Most of the routes that BE is relinquishing or cutting down have more than one alternative for most passengers and the reason that BE is pulling out is it cannot compete because of a mixture of things such as bad commercial management and lack of development of services and a false belief that the express and motorway services wouldn't attract enough numbers to be viable and were proven wrong and the fact that their cost base is much higher and their working practices get far less out of their staff, resources than their competitors who work on rotas that spend more time driving and less time on overtime, the later of which is killing the company.

devnull

Letter from CEO

I remain committed to reaching agreement on achieving payroll cost savings and delivering efficient
work practices that would help address our immediate insolvency exposure. This would also start the
process of making Bus Éireann a viable, efficient and competitive organisation, ensuring its ability to
survive long term.

While failure to reach agreement at the Workplace Relations Commission last week is very regrettable,
things cannot continue as they are. Presently, the financial situation continues to deteriorate at an
accelerated rate - which is deeply concerning. Operating losses at Bus Éireann increased to €1.5m in
January and if this run rate continues the company will be insolvent in May. Company management,
with the approval of the Board, therefore has no option but to implement changes to work practices
that will result in immediate cost savings. This will also be a first step on our road to competitiveness.

A detailed list of the measures we will implement is outlined below - and for the purpose of clarity -
include all measures announced in my letter to you on January 16th last. These work practice initiatives
are only an initial step; further measures involving changes to terms & conditions are also essential.
Some of the measures outlined below have already been implemented. All others will be implemented
from Monday, March 6th next.

Our objective is not to become a low cost operator; we are committed to protecting basic pay rates
and enhancing these as circumstances permit. Delivering greater efficiencies and commencing the
process of re-structuring is vital to modernising our work practices and making us more flexible. This
will enable us to compete effectively and provide the services our customers both desire and deserve.

Some of our inefficiencies are indefensible. Spending money on bus hire for example, because of the
unavailability of a driver or vehicle, is a waste of financial resources and a glaring inefficiency that
simply must stop.

I have already advised that a review of all structures is on-going and will be finalised by the end of
March. This is likely to result in job losses in some areas but will also provide opportunities in others,
as we adapt to a changing and more competitive marketplace with growing customer expectations.

Difficult decisions are being taken to safeguard the company’s future - these are not being taken
without careful consideration; some of these decisions will impact pay, but in doing so, will safeguard
the maximum number of jobs possible.

This is a Bus Éireann problem that we all must find resolution to. I urge your representatives to engage
with us immediately to find a satisfactory solution to our problems. A strike is not in the interest of
the company, staff or our customers.

Ray Hernan,
Acting Chief Executive Officer
Bus Éireann

Issues covered by company letter of 16th January will continue to be applied
1. Non-essential spend will be identified and eliminated. This relates to non-payroll items and nothing is excluded.

2. Bus Hire; stricter controls have been put in place and the need for pre-authorisation will continue to apply.

3. Overtime; all unplanned and un-rostered overtime is banned. We will continue to drive down and eliminate such overtime.

4. Recruitment; approval is required in advance from CEO.

5. Annual leave; there is no entitlement to carry over annual leave and the company are stopping this practice. Staff who have un-used entitlements will be scheduled to take it all within the leave year ending March 2018.

6. Flexi-time; Staff have been communicated with and accommodation has taken place to agree fixed starting and finishing times to suit the individual and the department in question.

7. Driver’s hours of work are being averaged on a weekly basis over the duty rotations. This is in accordance with the current union agreement.

8. Spare driver utilisation is as per the current union agreement.

9. First-user check is a legal requirement and in line with current union agreements. Drivers are required to carry out the first user check.

10. Fuel efficiency; activation of Telematics to improve efficiencies and eco-driving systems will take place.

11. Absence management; current procedures continue. It should be noted that the level of absenteeism at approximately 7% is having a serious detrimental impact on costs.

Other cost saving and efficiency improvements
1. Duty efficiency – all duties will be reviewed to ensure maximum efficiency and compliance with relevant regulations, to include maximisation of driving time.

2. Roster efficiency – all rosters will be reviewed to ensure that all work is rostered in a way that meets the business needs, fair to all staff and compliance with relevant regulations.

3. DAWT - all rosters paid according to Daily Average Work Time rules.

4. Roadside bookings/breaks – Drivers will start, break, restart and finish at designated roadside locations to ensure minimum number of vehicles are used for service and duty efficiency is maximised (on-street changeovers).

5. Appropriate non-revenue travel time – All non-revenue generating paid travel time (walking, public transport and Driving) will be reviewed and adjusted to reflect average actual journey times.

6. Appropriate loading / recovery time – Loading time will be reviewed and adjusted to reflect average actual loading, to include recovery time.

7. Unpaid breaks – The current agreement of 2:45 will be fully implemented.

8. Average late running allowance – late running payment will be paid based on AVL data only.

9. Work rest day ban - No rest day working allocation to apply within 3 weeks of a sick day.

10. The existing national agreements supersede all local arrangements. Examples include;
a. Additional boarded OT outside of planned operation
b. Meal Allowance payments that don’t meet qualification criteria

11. Cessation of duty hours claim - payment for actual hours worked only.

12. Flexible spare planning and daily utilisation – All roster vacancies will be filled and spare levels for cover will be entirely at management discretion. .

13. Single spare cover panel – Should a panel of spare drivers be required the drivers will be available to cover all reasons of non-attendance. This panel will rotate to include early, middle and late requirements.

14. Out-based Operations (Spare Drivers) Bus Éireann has operations from out-based locations around the country. Drivers and vehicles are based at these locations (start and end depot). The majority of operations from these locations are part of Public Service Contract (PSO).

15. All Short term absences (up to 3 days) will be covered as heretofore with the attendant expenses allowances.

16. All absences of over 3 days will be covered with spare drivers from the area who have expressed an interest in working from the out-based location. No travel allowance or overnight expenses will be paid in respect of this work.

17. Where no spare driver has expressed an interest in working from the out-based location, the junior driver from the spare panel will be allocated the work. Overnight expenses will be paid for first and last day only.

18. The payment of a flat days pay in respect of the first rest day away from home depot will be discontinued.

19. Reclassification of the Under and Over 64km rule to one class, i.e. all locations

20. Elimination of the travel or Out-based Relief payments and replaced with Overnight payments. Overnight payment only to apply.

21. Payments for non-working rest-day overnights will be discontinued.

22. The payment of a flat days pay in respect of the first rest day away from home depot will be discontinued.

23. No driver out-based/overnight expenses for travel to out-based locations within 10km of his/her home, irrespective of operating base or period of cover.

24. Expenses for first and last day only when relieving any board in out-based locations – whether illness or leave relief.

25. Allocation of duties – All drivers will be required to work their rostered duties unless a change is approved by the local management

26. Subcontracting – The Company may on a short or longer term basis subcontract services in order to eliminate or avoid creation of inefficient vehicle or duty workings. To minimise commercial risk, the company will have the option of sub-contracting on existing or new services.

27. Part-time and Temporary drivers – Part-time and temporary drivers will form part of the weekly coverage of rosters. A minimum fixed hour working arrangement will be agreed in advance with PT/Temp drivers. Payment will be for revenue hours covered. The Company may on a short or longer term basis utilise part time or temporary staff to avoid creation of inefficient duty workings and/or for staff vacancies.

28. Driving Hours Recording - Compliance with all company policy and statutory requirements relating to digital and analogue tachograph recording system in use for all EU driving, non EU driving and other work.

29. Cleaning –cleaning of buses as required.

30. Fuelling - fuelling buses as required.

31. On-vehicles Systems - Use of all on-board IT systems including all new fleet technologies which would benefit the business.

32. SDA Review - Safe Driving Award Scheme to be reviewed but subject to compliance with Driver check, satisfactory attendance, driving hour’s regulations, eco driving/telematics performance.

33. Telematics & Eco Driving systems - All staff will fully cooperate with initiatives to help reduce waste and improve fuel efficiency.

34. AVL – All staff will fully cooperate with AVL and any other information technology which the company may require to include logon requirements, use AVL communication functions, activate customer announcements and report any technical problems.

35. Seat Reservation – All staff will cooperate fully with all administrative requirements of the seat reservation system and ensure customer satisfaction achieved in this regard.

36. Transfers - No movement or transfer of newly appointed staff to other group companies until Probationary Period (1 year or longer) is completed.

37. No automatic “Seniority right” for a staff member to be a successful applicant for vacancy in another group company. Suitability of staff member (Based on current file- Absenteeism, Accidents, Customer Complaints, Driver shorts etc.) to be reasonable grounds to refuse application
a. CMO Appointments - Standard Payment (Hours) agreed for drivers to attend C.M.O
appointments.
b. Inspectors

38. No automatic right for Inspector to be allocated rest day work / OT ahead of Acting Inspector

39. Acting Inspector panel will be fully utilised as the needs arise.

40. Inspectors who take up secondments to be paid the hours/conditions attached to the seconded work. No automatic right to maintain current earnings if earnings are reduced with secondment, e.g. RP Inspector covering schools

41. Acting Inspectors to be paid Inspector allowance per day of Acting up – No requirement to pay full weeks acting up allowance if only covering for a number of days.

42. Acting Inspectors can be utilised on half day driving/half day Inspector cover where requirement is for a few hours cover only.

43. Full flexibility to move inspectors from operating areas, rosters / duties in order to cover shortfall in other areas.

44. Full review of Inspectors rosters and rotations to take place in all sections.

45. Training allowance payment to be withdrawn

Training
47. Training will be delivered locally where possible, in order to reduce the need for staff to travel. This will be facilitated by increased use of technology.

48. Training of staff (including Drivers) to be carried out by any suitably qualified training Instructor (from any grade of staff)

49. Training of staff to be carried out by external resources where practical

50. All Training staff to co-operate and assist with the training of Private Operators who operate Road Passenger work on behalf of Bus Éireann.

Overtime/Allowances
52. No OT payment for training

53. No OT payments for staff attending meetings

54. School trips operated by RP drivers will be transferred to school transport.

55. If board working time varies between winter and summer it should be paid as per actual working time and not same pay all year round

Routes
The following routes will close on these dates
X7 Dublin - Clonmel: March 12th
21 Athlone - Westport: April 16th.
33 Dublin - Derry: May 28th

The number of daily services on Dublin- Limerick(X12), and Dublin – Galway(20/X20) will be reduced from March 12th
.
Any staff impacted by these announcements will be redeployed

ElWalrus

Not sure if this link was posted earlier, but...
saw this report posted in another site.

please tell me this isn't genuine. Average wages at BE rose from €41k to €51k from 2005 to 2009. PSO payments rose from €25m to €50 million in the same period. Average fare price increases went from just under 4% in 2005 to 10% in 2009, and all the while passenger numbers were pretty flat from just over 90,000 to just under 90,000 in the same period.And that includes about €100m in capital grants during that period.

So all that gave an operating loss before PSO that went from €21m to €54m over that period, with most of it gobbled up by wages.

Those figures just point to chronic mismanagement. And it seems the government of the day's answer was to keep writing cheques, never questioning where all the extra tax payers money went.

devnull

One of the biggest issues is that according to the Indy, there are 1,378 drivers who work overtime almost every day which is the same as the cost of 1,636 drivers not working overtime, if the company was to increase the effectiveness of the rotas, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers.

horseburger

devnull wrote: »

No conflict of interest whatsoever, I just think it's a bit strange you are doing Imelda Munsters canvassing for her by publicising every single quote she has made about the matter. I have never worked in the transport industry or been involved in politics, just a regular user of public transport on here, free of vested interests. It is clear however you have some involvement in the industry or politics though!

You, again, ignore the fact that I have quoted three other TDs as well; Robert Troy Fianna Fáil, Thomas Pringle Independent and Michael Fitzmaurice Independent. I couldn't really be a supporter of four different TDs, each from different constituencies!

Anyway, I haven't posted every single quote by her.

What exactly is a vested interest? Is that employees trying to ensure they, and new employees, don't get f*cked over?

In the RTE report in the link I included, it included the line, regarding a comment by Anne Graham of the NTA:

"However, she acknowledged there was nothing to stop the private contractors from paying new recruits nothing more than the minimum wage".

https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0422/695916-nta-bus/

Even though the article is from two years ago, it does suggest that the NTA, and government policy in general, is facilitating a situation where employees pay and conditions are being lessened.

The news item includes the line:

"Unions at the two State bus companies fear that if 10% of bus routes are opened up to the private sector, it could trigger a deterioration in the pay and conditions of members".

kingshankly

ElWalrus wrote: »

Not sure if this link was posted earlier, but...
saw this report posted in another site.

please tell me this isn't genuine. Average wages at BE rose from €41k to €51k from 2005 to 2009. PSO payments rose from €25m to €50 million in the same period. Average fare price increases went from just under 4% in 2005 to 10% in 2009, and all the while passenger numbers were pretty flat from just over 90,000 to just under 90,000 in the same period.And that includes about €100m in capital grants during that period.

So all that gave an operating loss before PSO that went from €21m to €54m over that period, with most of it gobbled up by wages.

Those figures just point to chronic mismanagement. And it seems the government of the day's answer was to keep writing cheques, never questioning where all the extra tax payers money went.

This isn't genuine

devnull

horseburger wrote: »

Is that employees trying to ensure they, and new employees, don't get f*cked over?

The idea that new employees are being protected by the senior employees is romantic in it's nature, but reports into the issues in Bus Eireann suggest that it is far from the case and is a smokescreen that they are hiding behind and actually the senior employees are the ones who are benefiting most and the juniors that are benefiting least. The Seniors are also have more to lose from the changes than the juniors.

The report says that in many cases, the senior, higher earning drivers have an easier schedule with less weekend work, and less actual revenue generating driving time than the people. This gives the impression that the new entrants are doing the donkey work with more weekend work, harder schedules, less overtime and more driving hours whilst the people at the top of the tree are driving less, earning more, claiming more over-time, working on the nicer routes with the better schedules.

That's not signs of a union that is looking after the whole workforce, it's the sign of one which is looking after those at the top of the tree and making the junior staff do the donkey work that the seniors don't want to do, because the more donkey work the juniors do, the longer the ones at the top can continue to earn over €60k per year in take home pay. BE comes across as a company where in the driving grade there is severe disconnect between driving hours and pay and that has to be addressed.

The unions could stop this by agreeing a rotating rota system and the people at the top making some concessions to make it fairer system by working in a way that was more efficient for the company, but the fact is they don't want to give up anything they have, are effectively treating the junior staff with contempt, then claim that in reality they are looking out for them. Unfortunately talk is cheap, when it comes to walking the walk, unfortunately the union has not been doing it.

Bus Eireann said in a full costed and written report that there are 1,378 drivers who work overtime each day which equals the cost of 1,636 drivers. It said if the company was to maximise driver efficiency, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers. This alone is a shocking statistic and must be addressed. When that is addressed, then we can talk about other things. The taxpayer has a right to be given value for money for it's services and the company to be run in an efficient way.

Right now they are paying for the equivalent 650 more staff members than the company feels it needs at the moment and the average pay is €45,000 at the driver grade. Essentially the company is saying that with modern working practices and rotas that make the best use of resources, they can save over €25m before even talking about changing any terms and conditions or rates and any other cost measures. That is staggering.

Even though the article is from two years ago, it does suggest that the NTA, and government policy in general, is facilitating a situation where employees pay and conditions are being lessened.

All it suggests is that the unions feel that is the case.

"However, she acknowledged there was nothing to stop the private contractors from paying new recruits nothing more than the minimum wage".

I don't like repeating myself, but since you are, I will. I am all for a debate on how the industry works and what happens in reality, but your constant deception by omission and refusal to actually debate the topic at hand and simply resort to posting quotes and taking them out of context and trying to twist them to suit your agenda, means I have no other choice.

There is no requirement for any company anywhere in the state in any industry to pay more than the minimum wage. That is why it is called the minimum wage. There is no requirement for Bus Eireann to pay a staff member than minimum wage, there is no requirement for the Taioseachs office to pay someone more than minimum wage, there is no requirement to pay a banker or consultant than minimum wage, there is no requirement to pay a CEO more than minimum wage.

This is another red herring, just because the law allows someone to do something, doesn't mean that a company is going to do it. If you look at the article in the Irish Times recently in relation to salaries in transport companies, you will find that none of them are paying anything near minimum wage. But sure, believe the union rhetoric if you want that everyone will be on minimum wage,

"Unions at the two State bus companies fear that if 10% of bus routes are opened up to the private sector, it could trigger a deterioration in the pay and conditions of members".

It could also trigger an improvement in service to the public and a better value service for the taxpayer and also limit the effect that future strikes had on the travelling public if it meant that not all services were ran by the same company?

The thing is compared to average market rates, the overall take home pay in BE and DB is higher than private operators and it's not just a little bit. Basic pay is totally not the issue,the extras and working practices and bad use of resources and rotas is.

I think that the taxpayer has a right to ensure that they get value for money for their funding of a publicly funded bus service. Having a monopoly win a contract every time never has been and never will be a way to extract the best business for the public.

Bus Eireann said in a full costed and written report that there are 1,378 drivers who work overtime each day which equals the cost of 1,636 drivers. It said if the company was to maximise driver efficiency, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers. This alone is a shocking statistic and must be addressed. When that is addressed, then we can talk about other things. The taxpayer has a right to be given value for money for it's services and the company to be run in an efficient way.

Yourself isit

So back to the expressway corridors. Most of these have competition and it is that competition that is causing some of BE's problems. As well as bad management.

If the company folds then competition is immediately reduced. No doubt some of the larger intercity routes will have two applicants but many won't and I doubt there will be the reserve of capital out there (or expertise) to make these local players national players. Maybe some British or European bus company can fill the gaps.

What we might be left with is a mix of multiple regional operators of massively varying quality. There is a reason why Ireland set up semi states in the first place.

Yourself isit

Also if BE folds then bussarus needs to be available to private operators.

devnull

Yourself isit wrote: »

So back to the expressway corridors. Most of these have competition and it is that competition that is causing some of BE's problems. As well as bad management.

At the end of the day though, public transport should be run in the interests of as many people as possible, not in the interests of one company. At the end of the day it comes down what you feel is more important, the public or the needs of one company.

If the company folds then competition is immediately reduced. No doubt some of the larger intercity routes will have two applicants but many won't and I doubt there will be the reserve of capital out there (or expertise) to make these local players national players.

Some would argue that considering the way BE has been run in the last 10 years by management who have been stuck in the past and when they finally get with the times, all be it very late, they are stopped from reforms by unions, that there isn't the expertise out there in Bus Eireann either, otherwise their company would be much better off.

What we might be left with is a mix of multiple regional operators of massively varying quality. There is a reason why Ireland set up semi states in the first place.

So what you are saying is that monopolies are bad, that is why we set up a state one? Unfortunately the semi-states have failed the public, both in delivering value for money and also delivering an acceptable quality of service for the majority of the people in this country, the staff in them have also showed they are not willing to reform to change that.

On the face of it management have put forward plans yesterday, independent of changes to overtime rates and basic pay, that will make the company improve on both of those areas, however the unions will not agree to them as it means they will need to work harder and carry out more tasks, even if it will help them deliver what is their core activity of delivering a transport service to the public.

The way you ensure quality for unsustainable but socially necessary routes is by having performance criteria and if this is not met stripping the operator of it's contract and re-tendering the service. You could then exclude an operator who has been stripped of a contract from bidding in future tenders etc.

For routes that are commercially viable the market will decide how they work, there are enough people in this state who will only be too willing to challenge a commercial operator who is being run in a less than perfect manner. This is a large part of the reason that BE have been beaten by the privates. The privates started from nothing, no bus station, no vehicles, no customers, yet were still able to overtake an incumbent who had many advantages and a massive passenger base.

jimmycrackcorm

horseburger wrote:

"However, she acknowledged there was nothing to stop the private contractors from paying new recruits nothing more than the minimum wage".

Nothing to stop Lidl or ALDI from paying minimum wages. But they don't.

LeinsterDub

Yourself isit wrote: »

Also if BE folds then bussarus needs to be available to private operators.

Why would they want to use that hole ?

n97 mini

NTA on the radio. Expressway from Athlone to Westport will be replaced by an increased, extended and taxpayer subsidised 440.

Other proposed cuts will be allowed as there are alternatives.

schemingbohemia

Presumably not at the same time as the PSO train service?

Yourself isit

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why would they want to use that hole ?

There's nothing wrong with it. I wonder what exactly people expect from a bus station. It's also beside a dart stop. And indoors.

Brendan Bendar

horseburger wrote: »

What exactly is a vested interest? Is that employees trying to ensure they, and new employees, don't get f*cked over?

".

Can I declare a vested interest, it's as a taxpayer it's trying to ensure I don't get "f*cked over" as I seem to be by goings on in BE.

jimmycrackcorm

LeinsterDub wrote:

Why would they want to use that hole ?

Because you get to wait indoors instead of out in the rain for a private bus.

devnull

NTA Response:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Initial_Review_of_withdrawal_of_some_Bus_Eireann_licensed_services.pdf

Route X7
A detailed assessment is carried out in a separate report. The conclusion of that report is that there
are sufficient services offered by JJ Kavanagh’s Route 717 which operates 98 services per week from
Clonmel to Dublin via Kilkenny. Some amendments will be required for Locallink service 817C serving
Carrick-on-Suir to Grangemockler to maintain the public service obligation and connect into JJ
Kavanagh’s 717 service.

Route X12
Bus Éireann have announced a withdrawal of 24 services per week from a total of 130 on their
Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh, Roscrea and Portlaoise service.

There are a number of alternative services available such as JJ Kavanagh Route 735 which provides
112 services per week between Limerick & Dublin via Nenagh, Roscrea & Portlaoise. Iarnród Éireann
also provides 26 weekly rail services from Nenagh and Roscrea providing connections to Dublin.

There is a high volume of bus and rail services from Limerick to Dublin, therefore no additional
services are proposed by the Authority.

Route 20/X20
Bus Éireann have announced a withdrawal of 28 services per week from a total of 221 services.

There are a number of alternative services available such as Citylink Route 763 which provides 98
weekly departures between Galway & Dublin via intermediate locations.

There is a high volume of bus and rail services from Galway to Dublin, therefore no additional
services are proposed by the Authority.

Route 21
Bus Éireann have announced a withdrawal of route 21 which currently provides 28 services per week
from Westport to Athlone. The Authority has determined that there is a public service obligation to
continue to provide services between Westport and Athlone.

The Authority is considering amending the existing PSO service 440 to provide 4 services per day in
each direction from Westport to Athlone supplemented by 2 services per day in each direction on
route 440A from Westport to Ireland West Airport Knock (IWAK). This would result in a doubling of
the existing services.

Route 33
Bus Éireann have announced a withdrawal of route 33 which currently provides 28 services per week
from Derry to Dublin.

There are a number of alternative services on the Derry to Dublin route. Translink operates 42
services per week on the same route and it is our understanding that they will be retaining those
services.

Bus Éireann’s Expressway route 32 operates 126 services per week via the same route except
between Strabane and Derry.

Translink Route 273 operates 201 services per week from Derry to Strabane which would connect to
Bus Éireann route 32.

There are sufficient alternative services provided by Translink and Bus Éireann and therefore it is not
proposed to provide any additional services.