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Bust Éireann
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horseburger wrote: »It seems to me that no assurance at all could be given by the NTA, that locations currently served, for example intermediate stops as pick and drop off points, will continue to be served, if any company takes over a route that is currently operated by Bus Éireann.
The correct way of saying it is.
There is no assurance that can be given by anyone, that intermediate stops as pick up and drop off point will continue to be served if any company takes over a route that is currently served by any other company. This is because they are commercial routes and a level playing field is in place. If the service is a PSO then it's a whole different ball game since the NTA set the timetable.
Still you imply that there is a different rule for Bus Eireann Expressway to that of other commercial operators, the constant repeating of the same thing and constant deception by omission is getting tiresome. I think the people of this board and the public deserve honesty rather than a false narrative.I wonder, what sort of service will be put in place of the Derry Dublin route?
For example, I imagine after 28th May, I would guess that more pressure will be put on the 32 Letterkenny service, for space on the 32 Letterkenny Dublin bus services, at pick up and drop off points at intermediate towns, like Monaghan town. The X4 Ulster Bus service does not run services from Derry, as late or as early as the 33 bus service.
That's three months in the future, for a service that was only confirmed to be ceasing a few days ago, give people the chance to actually put a plan into action, there is plenty of time to do so, wait and see and show a bit of patience, far too early to be scaremongering right now.
It's likely that Ulsterbus will add extra services, we will just have to wait and see what happens, either way throwing your toys out of the pram already about something that isn't going to happen in three months and a lot of changes can happen in that time is laughable.
Stop stoking fear into people.I don't think there is a Bus Éireann service that covers Monaghan to Dublin, other than the 32 Letterkenny and 33 Derry services, ever since the number 177 was stopped a few years ago?
So you admit there is services then?
I personally think Translink will add extra services.
As for the 32, having took these services myself, believe me buses are not running around full with no excess capacity as you seem to think they are, and in addition, because of the changes to other services there will be higher capacity vehicles freed up to put on there, if the worst should happen.McConnon's private coaches do services to and from Monaghan and Dublin, but are not frequent throughout the whole day to and from Dublin and Monaghan, and no services on the Sunday of a Bank Holiday.horseburger wrote: »So, you want one private company, "a company" to operate all of Bus Éireann's services, "the exact same services"? Would it not end up being just as expensive to run? Or quite possibly more expensive?
Do you know what a cost is? The expenditure of funds or use of property to acquire or produce a product or service. Because this is key to where a service is viable or not. The higher your costs are, the more income you need to make something viable, an operator with lower costs can make a route viable that an operator with higher costs deems nonviable
In addition an operator who has lower costs even for services that are losing huge amounts of money, can do a PSO route for less subsidy because their business is more efficient. Bus Eireann is not an efficient business that has been proven over the past few weeks without any doubt whatsoever.
Bus Eireann said in a full costed and written report that there are 1,378 drivers who work overtime each day which equals the cost of 1,636 drivers. It said if the company was to maximise driver efficiency, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers. This alone is a shocking statistic and must be addressed.
Right now they are paying for the equivalent 650 more staff members than the company feels it needs at the moment and the average pay is €45,000 at the driver grade. You are saying that private operators have the same level of fat and excess in them that BE has?
Essentially the company is saying that with modern working practices and rotas that make the best use of resources, they can save over €25m before even talking about changing any terms and conditions or rates and any other cost measures. That is staggering.0 -
horseburger wrote: »It is not irrelevant. Bus Éireann are threatening that the company will be insolvent if it doesn't cut back on the services, that it has proposed discontinuing, which are the services to which I was referring.
Nobody is threatening with making the company insolvent if it doesn't cut back on services. A company being insolvent is not something that somebody does to spite the other side or threatens to do to score a cheap point or a dig over the over side it's something that happens when a company performs financially in a way that it cannot meet it's obligations as a company. A way of avoiding this is reducing costs, which the unions prevent them doing.
The people in the unions and on the drivers side fail to grasp this, the company is in the mire, the company are not just calling their bluff that it is the case of using it as a tool to beat the staff with to push through reforms, it is true, and the sooner the drivers come out of cloud cuckoo land and start to realise that sooner or later it's going to be cuts or jobs, and with the route closures it's probably already heading towards the later.0 -
Unions spreading misleading leaflets on buses now to strike fear into public.
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Is it permissible to spam buses?0
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The correct way of saying it is.
There is no assurance that can be given by anyone, that intermediate stops as pick up and drop off point will continue to be served if any company takes over a route that is currently served by any other company. This is because they are commercial routes and a level playing field is in place. If the service is a PSO then it's a whole different ball game since the NTA set the timetable.
Still you imply that there is a different rule for Bus Eireann Expressway to that of other commercial operators, the constant repeating of the same thing and constant deception by omission is getting tiresome. I think the people of this board and the public deserve honesty rather than a false narrative.
That's three months in the future, for a service that was only confirmed to be ceasing a few days ago, give people the chance to actually put a plan into action, there is plenty of time to do so, wait and see and show a bit of patience, far too early to be scaremongering right now.
It's likely that Ulsterbus will add extra services, we will just have to wait and see what happens, either way throwing your toys out of the pram already about something that isn't going to happen in three months and a lot of changes can happen in that time is laughable.
Stop stoking fear into people.
So you admit there is services then?
I personally think Translink will add extra services, but even if they don't which is highly unlikely, there is the 32 and 33 and having took these services myself, believe me buses are not running around full with no excess capacity as you seem to think they are, and in addition, because of the changes to other services there will be higher capacity vehicles freed up to put on there, if the worst should happen.
Do you know what a cost is? The expenditure of funds or use of property to acquire or produce a product or service. Because this is key to where a service is viable or not. The higher your costs are, the more income you need to make something viable, an operator with lower costs can make a route viable that an operator with higher costs deems nonviable
In addition an operator who has lower costs even for services that are losing huge amounts of money, can do a PSO route for less subsidy because their business is more efficient. Bus Eireann is not an efficient business that has been proven over the past few weeks without any doubt whatsoever.
Bus Eireann said in a full costed and written report that there are 1,378 drivers who work overtime each day which equals the cost of 1,636 drivers. It said if the company was to maximise driver efficiency, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers. This alone is a shocking statistic and must be addressed.
Right now they are paying for the equivalent 650 more staff members than the company feels it needs at the moment and the average pay is €45,000 at the driver grade. You are saying that private operators have the same level of fat and excess in them that BE has?
Essentially the company is saying that with modern working practices and rotas that make the best use of resources, they can save over €25m before even talking about changing any terms and conditions or rates and any other cost measures. That is staggering.
I am not stoking fear. I am considering how routes like the Derry Dublin service might operate after 28th May.
You know very well, that I was referring to a bus that starts and terminates between Dublin and Monaghan, considering that I mentioned the 177 route having been ended, a few years ago.
You also know that when I ask what type of service might be put in place of the 33, it is with reference to the lack of assurance from either Bus Éireann or the NTA, that replacements services will serve the locations currently served, on the routes that are proposed to be discontinued.
A poster above, suggested that a private company, "a company", take over all Bus Éireann's PSO services. Can you see that happening?
The reason I asked if Bus Éireann or the NTA would be considering operating a separate service to and from Monagahan is because if the 33 bus is ended, I would imagine that it will place more pressure on the 32 Letterkenny service to and from Monaghan and Dublin and Dublin Airport.
I have taken the Derry and Letterkenny services as well, for example at Dublin airport where they put on an extra bus for Monaghan because the 32 bus was full going to Letterkenny.
Another example, going to Derry, the 33 bus was full by the time it stopped at Ardee bypass, having picked up passengers at the airport. I got the 177, which operated at the time, and I connected with a later Derry bus, at Monaghan bus station.
I have also taken the 32 bus from Monaghan, scheduled to pick up at Monaghan at 3.15am which was almost full leaving Monaghan bus station. Since 13th November 2016, it leaves Monaghan at 3.22am.
At the moment the earlier service to Dublin Aiport and Dublin City Centre from Monaghan Town is the 33 bus at 1.55am.
If the 33 service is ended, it stands to reason that more pressure will be placed on the 32 services at intermediate towns, including Monaghan.
That is not scaremongering.
I did not, as you insinuate, suggest that either the 32 and 33 services are full all the time, but there are occasions when the 32 and 33 buses are full after picking up at Dublin Airport, with passengers going to various towns on the routes of the 33 and 32 services, including Monaghan.
Bus Éireann has proposed that the X4 might be an alternative option for some intermediate towns, but will Ulsterbus decide to run services much later into the evening from Derry to Dublin, considering the last X3/33 Derry ran at midnight from Derry to Dublin and the last X4 is at 5.30pm?
http://buseireann.ie/timetables/1470909505-33.pdf
http://buseireann.ie/timetables/1478276752-32.pdf
http://journeyplanner.translink.co.uk/ext_webpdf_desk/TTB/20170220-145146/nir/EFA02__0700X4y15_TP.pdf0 -
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Unions spreading misleading leaflets on buses now to strike fear into public.
Playing the rural card big time, and trying their hardest to involve the politicians.
To take that stuff literally, one would think it is harsh desert West of Maynooth.
Luckily there are some who can see through the real reasons for the problems.
Cost. Base.0 -
horseburger wrote: »I am not stoking fear. I am considering how routes like the Derry Dublin service might operate after 28th May.
It is three months away, give people time to come to a response.You also know that when I ask what type of service might be put in place of the 33, it is with reference to the lack of assurance from either Bus Éireann or the NTA, that replacements services will serve the locations currently served, on the routes that are proposed to be discontinued.
Nobody can make blanket assurances that things are going to happen, because it's only a few days since the service announcements have ceased and another 3 months before they are closed. You have quite frankly unrealistic expectations here when it comes to such things, you simply have to sit back and wait and stop scaremongering.The reason I asked if Bus Éireann or the NTA would be considering operating a separate service to and from Monagahan is because if the 33 bus is ended, I would imagine that it will place more pressure on the 32 Letterkenny service to and from Monaghan and Dublin and Dublin Airport.
I have taken the Derry and Letterkenny services as well, for example at Dublin airport where they put on an extra bus for Monaghan because the 32 bus was full going to Letterkenny.
Maybe they will use a higher capacity vehicle on a number of services. However you defeat your own argument here because on one hand you say that people will be left behind but on the other you say that when vehicles are full extra capacity is provided.Another example, going to Derry, the 33 bus was full by the time it stopped at Ardee bypass, having picked up passengers at the airport. I got the 177, which operated at the time, and I connected with a later Derry bus, at Monaghan bus station.If the 33 service is ended, it stands to reason that more pressure will be placed on the 32 services at intermediate towns, including Monaghan. That is not scaremongering.
It is scaremongering because nobody knows what will happen, there is still 3 months until the service is withdrawn, we can have this discussion about that nearer the time when things are clearer as to how they are going to be, but right now it's all what ifs and buts and the simple thing is the closer it gets to the time the more we will know, there is absolutely no need to worry just yet.I did not, as you insinuate, suggest that either the 32 and 33 services are full all the time, but there are occasions when the 32 and 33 buses are full after picking up at Dublin Airport, with passengers going to various towns on the routes of the 33 and 32 services, including Monaghan.
I'm sure that Bus Eireann have all of the details of passenger flows to hand and since it is a joint service with Ulsterbus they will be more than happy to share them with Ulsterbus since they have a close and good working relationship with them. They will also know the passenger numbers that are using specific stops on all of their routes and will make changes without doubt with this in mind.
There is also the prospect of running higher capacity vehicles to cater for demand if people are getting left behind, personally I don't think they will, but there are things which can be done.Bus Éireann has proposed that the X4 might be an alternative option for some intermediate towns, but will Ulsterbus decide to run services much later into the evening from Derry to Dublin, considering the last X3/33 Derry ran at midnight from Derry to Dublin and the last X4 is at 5.30pm?
Wait and see. I think they will, but time will tell but right now it's pointless posting so much hyperbole about it, there is another three months before it happens, there is plenty of time for things to change.0 -
Brendan Bendar wrote: »Playing the rural card big time, and trying their hardest to involve the politicians.
To take that stuff literally, one would think it is harsh desert West of Maynooth.
Luckily there are some who can see through the real reasons for the problems.
Cost. Base.
Lets take these one by one shall we - I will call this Save Our salaries of up to 60k
FALSE | Government policy will Destroy Bus Eireann Rural Services
There are no plans to make any changes to Bus Eireann Rural services, these are underlined by PSO and are contracted to the state and subsidy has increased from €34 in 2014 to €40 in 2016 and following network redesigns passenger numbers are improving.
SPIN | Expressway is a vital connection to your community.
All Rural services are underlined by PSO funding and are contracted by the state, very few Expressway services are the primary connection of local communities or those in rural areas. Anytime an Expresway service has served these areas and they are left with no other services, they have been replaced with PSO services.
FALSE | Market Satuation on MAIN Corridors Underming All Services
What the unions consider Market Saturation appears to be if Bus Eireann are not number one on a service. If they are getting beat on the open market suddenly that market is saturated. Basically it's spin to hide the fact in a level playing field, the management was not forward thinking enough and the public don't choose them.
It has consistently been the case that where new licences are issued, overall passenger numbers have increased very significantly. For example, between 2012 and 2015, total bus passenger numbers on the Cork Dublin Corridor increased by 61 per cent, while on the Limerick Dublin Corridor, they increased by 50 per cent.
Essentially what the unions appear to want, is if BE services are struggling, other operators, who the public are actively choosing over BE, should have to cut back their services to force people to use BE. At the end of the day the people decide, and if the people decide not to use an operator, the operator needs to cut it's cloth accordingly, that is what the BE unions refuse.
TRUE | Bus Eireann Have provided much needed services for generations.
But this is not the past, this is now and we need to realise that. It's a different environment to what it was 20-30 years ago and called progress.
FALSE | National Transport Authority Ignoring Licensing Guidelines
Where are such examples? A throwaway claim
QUESTION | Bus Eireann Spent over €40m in the naughties supporting social services due to a lack of spending.
Proof for this is required, however again, we're harking back to the past, not the present.
FALSE | Bus Eireann has already had to leave 200 villages
Really? Does a union supporter want to list and reference them all? Number picked out of someones ass it sounds.
SCAREMONGERING | Is your Town next?
Scaremongering at it's best.
TRUE BUT | Bus Eireann Returns 60m in taxes to the exchequer
Private companies return even more without taking any handouts could be said if you wanted to spin it the other way.
FALSE | The Taxpayer support for social services is lowest across all transport providers.
Where? In this country? In Europe? In the world? Last year it was €90m in vehicles and PSO alone. THere are many countries with less than that. The trouble is unions do not count anything other than cash as 'taxpayer support'
FALSE | NTA Spends Millions on Vanity Projects
This does not stand up to scrutiny, unless of course one regards the purchase of 116 buses for Bus Éireann; the opening of the Phoenix Park Tunnel, the rolling out of the Leap Card App, and making Connolly Station wheelchair accessible as “vanity projects”.
FALSE | Minister Ross Criticized NTA in a previous life
Can't find any proof of this, only CIE and the Department before the NTA existed.
Who is going to take responsibility for bus services disappearing
The National Transport Authority put a plan into action within days of the intercity routes being closed or reduced.0 -
Nobody is threatening with making the company insolvent if it doesn't cut back on services. A company being insolvent is not something that somebody does to spite the other side or threatens to do to score a cheap point or a dig over the over side it's something that happens when a company performs financially in a way that it cannot meet it's obligations as a company. A way of avoiding this is reducing costs, which the unions prevent them doing.
The people in the unions and on the drivers side fail to grasp this, the company is in the mire, the company are not just calling their bluff that it is the case of using it as a tool to beat the staff with to push through reforms, it is true, and the sooner the drivers come out of cloud cuckoo land and start to realise that sooner or later it's going to be cuts or jobs, and with the route closures it's probably already heading towards the later.
Are you disputing the statement made by Acting CEO Ray Hernan, when he made comments about ending routes?
He is quoted in this item:
https://www.derrynow.com/news/axe-dublin-derry-route-confirmed-effort-save-bus-eireann-e1-1m/146593
The item includes the following text:
"It has been confirmed that the Dublin-Derry Bus Éireann route will be axed in a cost-saving initiative".
"Acting chief executive Ray Hernan said that the move to axe the 833 Dublin - Derry route, along with two others, X7 Dublin - Clonmel, the 021 Athlone- Westport, will save the company €1.1m".
"The Dublin-Derry route is currently shared between Bus Éireann and Translink".
"We now have to implement that decision," he said, speaking to the Irish Independent. "We have no choice but to do that and make other decisions that are ultimately going to save money and stop the burn of cash that is running at an increasing rate since the end of the year."
"Mr Hernan said losses last month were €1.5m and at that rate, the organisation would go out of business".
A statement by him is referenced in this article below.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0221/854155-bus-eireann-dispute-back-at-wrc/
"Bus Éireann has warned that it could face insolvency by May and difficult decisions will have to be made urgently to avoid that prospect".
"Speaking at the Workplace Relations Commission after the breakdown of talks with unions, Acting CEO Ray Hernan said that losses had continue to increase in January by €1.5m".
"If that continued, he said, the company would be insolvent sometime during the month of May."
"He acknowledged that the company had sought €12m payroll savings as part of an overall plan to achieve long-term competitiveness but stressed that immediate savings were required".
"He said he was sorry to say it but that there was going to have to be pain taken by Bus Éireann staff".
"Mr Hernan said that apart from the three route closures announced yesterday, no other closures are currently planned, though he warned that all routes will kept under review regarding profitability".
"He said the Department of Transport had not been privy to all the proposals the company had put on the table, saying it was up to management to manage the organization".
"Asked whether the company would now implement the cuts unilaterally, Mr Hernan said it would now be seriously considering its position as to what steps needed to be taken to avoid insolvency".
"He said he did not believe Bus Éireann would need shareholder approval to unilaterally implement the cuts."0 -
SOBS
Ironically the one thing I won't be doing for NBRU workers if their intransigence means BÉ goes bust.0 -
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It is three months away, give people time to come to a response.
Nobody can make blanket assurances that things are going to happen, because it's only a few days since the service announcements have ceased and another 3 months before they are closed. You have quite frankly unrealistic expectations here when it comes to such things, you simply have to sit back and wait and stop scaremongering.
Maybe they will use a higher capacity vehicle on a number of services. However you defeat your own argument here because on one hand you say that people will be left behind but on the other you say that when vehicles are full extra capacity is provided.Another example, going to Derry, the 33 bus was full by the time it stopped at Ardee bypass, having picked up passengers at the airport. I got the 177, which operated at the time, and I connected with a later Derry bus, at Monaghan bus station.
It is scaremongering because nobody knows what will happen, there is still 3 months until the service is withdrawn, we can have this discussion about that nearer the time when things are clearer as to how they are going to be, but right now it's all what ifs and buts and the simple thing is the closer it gets to the time the more we will know, there is absolutely no need to worry just yet.
I'm sure that Bus Eireann have all of the details of passenger flows to hand and since it is a joint service with Ulsterbus they will be more than happy to share them with Ulsterbus since they have a close and good working relationship with them. They will also know the passenger numbers that are using specific stops on all of their routes and will make changes without doubt with this in mind.
There is also the prospect of running higher capacity vehicles to cater for demand if people are getting left behind, personally I don't think they will, but there are things which can be done.
Wait and see. I think they will, but time will tell but right now it's pointless posting so much hyperbole about it, there is another three months before it happens, there is plenty of time for things to change.
I am not defeating my argument and it is not scaremongering. I gave an example where two services serve Monaghan town, but, as an example, if the 33 service is axed, there is no assurance that the service that replaces it, will also serve Monaghan, so at the moment, after 28th May, the only service we know that will be definitely operating to Monaghan is the 32 Letterkenny service.0 -
horseburger wrote: »Are you disputing the statement made by Acting CEO Ray Hernan, when he made comments about ending routes?
He's not stating it as a threat, or a bargaining point. He's stating a reality.
There is a big difference, and you need to grasp that.0 -
horseburger wrote: »Are you disputing the statement made by Acting CEO Ray Hernan, when he made comments about ending routes?
What point are you trying to make? Do you have any understanding of financial matters? You appear not to do so, so I'll be happy to help you out on that with a link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvency
Insolvency is the state of being unable to pay the money owed, by a person or company, on time; those in a state of insolvency are said to be insolvent.
Nobody decides that "today I'm going to make my company insolvent" because I cannot get my own way. Insolvency is not a voluntary choice, that is not how it works, if you really think it is then you really need to start studying basic economics and finance
Insolvency happens when a company cannot meet it's obligation. It's not something that they choose to do, it's something that happens when the company cannot service it's obligations, Nobody threatens anyone with insolvency, it's something that happens by itself if the business is unable to trade in a solvent fashion.
The more money the company saves, the longer they can stave off a situation where they become insolvent. So by saving money in some areas, the point at which insolvency is reached is pushed back further because it reduces the speed that cash is used up and therefore increases the amount of time they can meet their obligations for.
However your belief that the only reason BE can go into insolvency is if the management say that they will decide to pick it and they can decide not to pick it is laughable. It happens when the business cannot meet it's obligations and nobody gets to decide when that happens if they are insolvent or not, they simply are.0 -
horseburger wrote: »I am not defeating my argument and it is not scaremongering. I gave an example where two services serve Monaghan town, but, as an example, if the 33 service is axed, there is no assurance that the service that replaces it, will also serve Monaghan, so at the moment, after 28th May, the only service we know that will be definitely operating to Monaghan is the 32 Letterkenny service.
Nobody can make blanket assurances that things are going to happen, because it's only a few days since the service announcements have ceased and another 3 months before they are closed. You have quite frankly unrealistic expectations here when it comes to such things, you simply have to sit back and wait and stop scaremongering.
Wait and see and give people time. You cannot expect an operator to say we are cancelling a service in three months time and new services to replace it to be announced in a few days, there are another 90 or so days to go so you're just going to have to sit back and wait, but you come across as a very impatient fellow so I'm sorry if that is a challenge.0 -
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You kind of expect a union to go out all guns blazing for its members. problem is if they rural communities go "meh" then they're fecked
Indeed but the problem is it's a false narrative, they are blurring the lines between PSO and Expressway services, coming out with vague claims they cannot back up and are trying to scare people with things like "Your Town Could be Next." They're essentially taking advantage of peoples lack of knowledge of the divisons in BE.
They're trying to frame it as a whole rural thing even though it is not and Expressway would serve very very little rural communities. The overwhelming majority of rural communities are on PSO routes, and the ones that are on Expressway, as has been proven with the 21, will be put on the PSO network if they lose their connectivity.
I see why they are doing it, but I don't like the fact that such tactics are being used to essentially cover up the issue that their cost base is too high and the company is very inefficient and needs restructuring to give taxpayers value for money.0 -
What point are you trying to make? Do you have any understanding of financial matters? You appear not to do so, so I'll be happy to help you out on that with a link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvency
Insolvency is the state of being unable to pay the money owed, by a person or company, on time; those in a state of insolvency are said to be insolvent.
Nobody decides that "today I'm going to make my company insolvent" because I cannot get my own way. Insolvency is not a voluntary choice, that is not how it works, if you really think it is then you really need to start studying basic economics and finance
Insolvency happens when a company cannot meet it's obligation. It's not something that they choose to do, it's something that happens when the company cannot service it's obligations, Nobody threatens anyone with insolvency, it's something that happens by itself if the business is unable to trade in a solvent fashion.
The more money the company saves, the longer they can stave off a situation where they become insolvent. So by saving money in some areas, the point at which insolvency is reached is pushed back further because it reduces the speed that cash is used up and therefore increases the amount of time they can meet their obligations for.
However your belief that the only reason BE can go into insolvency is if the management say that they will decide to pick it and they can decide not to pick it is laughable. It happens when the business cannot meet it's obligations and nobody gets to decide when that happens if they are insolvent or not, they simply are.
I did not say what you are attributing to me.
You said: "Nobody is threatening with making the company insolvent if it doesn't cut back on services".
I replied with an RTE news report that includes comments by Acting CEO Ray Hernan, which covered the issue of insolvency.
It states:
"Bus Éireann has warned that it could face insolvency by May and difficult decisions will have to be made urgently to avoid that prospect".
"Speaking at the Workplace Relations Commission after the breakdown of talks with unions, Acting CEO Ray Hernan said that losses had continue to increase in January by €1.5m".
"If that continued, he said, the company would be insolvent sometime during the month of May."
The Derrynow news item stated:
"We now have to implement that decision," he said, speaking to the Irish Independent. "We have no choice but to do that and make other decisions that are ultimately going to save money and stop the burn of cash that is running at an increasing rate since the end of the year."Mr Hernan said losses last month were €1.5m and at that rate, the organisation would go out of business in May".0 -
horseburger wrote: »I did not say what you are attributing to me.
You said: "Nobody is threatening with making the company insolvent if it doesn't cut back on services".
I replied with an RTE news report that includes comments by Acting CEO Ray Hernan, which covered the issue of insolvency.
It states:
"Bus Éireann has warned that it could face insolvency by May and difficult decisions will have to be made urgently to avoid that prospect".
"Speaking at the Workplace Relations Commission after the breakdown of talks with unions, Acting CEO Ray Hernan said that losses had continue to increase in January by €1.5m".
"If that continued, he said, the company would be insolvent sometime during the month of May."
The Derrynow news item stated:
"We now have to implement that decision," he said, speaking to the Irish Independent. "We have no choice but to do that and make other decisions that are ultimately going to save money and stop the burn of cash that is running at an increasing rate since the end of the year."Mr Hernan said losses last month were €1.5m and at that rate, the organisation would go out of business in May".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvency
Insolvency is the state of being unable to pay the money owed, by a person or company, on time; those in a state of insolvency are said to be insolvent. Nobody decides that "today I'm going to make my company insolvent" because I cannot get my own way. Insolvency is not a voluntary choice, that is not how it works, if you really think it is then you really need to start studying basic economics and finance
Insolvency happens when a company cannot meet it's obligation. It's not something that they choose to do, it's something that happens when the company cannot service it's obligations, Nobody threatens anyone with insolvency, it's something that happens by itself if the business is unable to trade in a solvent fashion.
The more money the company saves, the longer they can stave off a situation where they become insolvent. So by saving money in some areas, the point at which insolvency is reached is pushed back further because it reduces the speed that cash is used up and therefore increases the amount of time they can meet their obligations for.
Insolvency happens when the business cannot meet it's obligations and nobody gets to decide if they are insolvent or not, they simply are when they can no longer meet it's obligations, if they cannot meet obligations they do not have a choice of insolvency or not, they simply are insolvent.
It's not a threat or a bargaining point, it's a reality, you need to start grasping that or read a book about it.0 -
I think Bus Eireann has had its day.
It was set up in an era when mass car ownership was not common.
It prospered when it was effectively a monopoly.
Today its no longer viable without significant state support which arguably could be spent on other things. Even if the state does support it, that would be unfair on private operators.
The free travel subvention for pensioners is great and populist, but hardly helps. There's no reason why most pensioners (with a few exceptions) can't pay something towards the cost of travel.
The company is a basketcase controlled by unions who want our money with no efficiencies in return.
As a company its doomed.0 -
Apart from commiting the crime of capitalizing certain words, you kind of expect a union to go out all guns blazing for its members
problem is if they rural communities go "meh" then they're fecked
All it takes is a handful of pensioners in each constituency to get on to their local FF (or other populist) TD complaining they won't be able to get to their hospital appointments...0 -
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All it takes is a handful of pensioners in each constituency to get on to their local FF (or other populist) TD complaining they won't be able to get to their hospital appointments...
It's interesting to observe the way people refer to older people in such an ignorant way.
Someone else on another boards.ie forum about Dublin Bus, recently referred to older people on buses, as "coffin dodgers", as if they shouldn't be taking up space on the bus.
It's as if they think they'll buck the trend and remain forever youthful.0 -
All it takes is a handful of pensioners in each constituency to get on to their local FF (or other populist) TD complaining they won't be able to get to their hospital appointments...
I'm sure there is an alternative to a large state bus company which only seems to exist to bring pensioners here or there to hospital appointments.
Even a small local minivan company could do this job better.
Bus Eireann is a massive company catering to a relatively small number of paying customers. This business model is doomed to failure in the long run.0 -
All it takes is a handful of pensioners in each constituency to get on to their local FF (or other populist) TD complaining they won't be able to get to their hospital appointments...
It's hard to see how the government could give state aid without falling foul of state aid rules - the same rules prevented a bailout of aer Lingus iirc.
They could perhaps use the free travel scheme to funnel money to BÉ but it's likely the commission would see the ruse for what it really is.0 -
horseburger wrote: »It's interesting to observe the way people refer to older people in such an ignorant way.
Someone else on another boards.ie forum about Dublin Bus, recently referred to older people on buses, as "coffin dodgers", as if they shouldn't be taking up space on the bus.
It's as if they think they'll buck the trend and remain forever youthful.
Do you really think Free Travel Scheme will still be around when anyone in their mid 30's eventually becomes a pensioner at 85?
I doubt it.0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »Do you really think Free Travel Scheme will still be around when anyone in their mid 30's eventually becomes a pensioner at 85?
I doubt it.
I was referring to the attitude of the poster who made the remark, about pensioners - towards people who are of the age to have a free travel pass.
I did not make any comment, one way or another, about whether or not the free travel scheme would be available in the future to people who are over 66 years of age, or over 85 years of age, or whatever.
No one likes being spoken of in such a disrespectful manner, no matter what age category they are.0 -
I really love how the middleaged illinformed target the free travel pass without any foresight for their own future and prosperity, let alone disrespecting their forefather's and mother's achievements and contributions to society..Shurimgreat wrote:The free travel subvention for pensioners is great and populist, but hardly helps. There's no reason why most pensioners (with a few exceptions) can't pay something towards the cost of travel.Shurimgreat wrote:The company is a basketcase controlled by unions who want our money with no efficiencies in return.
I also am fed up with these unions grabbing the public transport services by the cahunas, who in their right mind let that happen? Why can't the NBRU take responsibility and produce daily statistics of carriage and delay / cancellation rates for trains, buses etc. like the INMO do for hospital a&e bed waiting lists, it's gotten that serious?!0 -
I really love how the middleaged illinformed target the free travel pass without any foresight for their own future and prosperity, let alone disrespecting their forefather's and mother's achievements and contributions to society..
I also am fed up with these unions grabbing the public transport services by the cahunas, who in their right mind let that happen? Why can't the NBRU take responsibility and produce daily statistics of carriage and delay / cancellation rates for trains, buses etc. like the INMO do for hospital a&e bed waiting lists, it's gotten that serious?!
In a perfect world, I'd allow pensioners free everything.
Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and pensioners have to be subsidised, sometimes by people who are worse off than them.
There are many rich pensioners. There are many poor workers and unemployed.
So yes many pensioners can easily afford to pay.
The issue is there are not enough paying customers of Bus Eireann's services.
As I said, the company is doomed sooner or later. Its business model is doomed to failure.
If Ryanair gave free travel to everyone over 65, it too would be doomed in the long run. In the short run it would have to raise prices for everyone else which would make it uncompetitive with rivals.
The free travel pass is great but ultimately it will undermine the survival of Bus Eireann.0 -
I really love how the middleaged illinformed target the free travel pass without any foresight for their own future and prosperity, let alone disrespecting their forefather's and mother's achievements and contributions to society..
I also am fed up with these unions grabbing the public transport services by the cahunas, who in their right mind let that happen? Why can't the NBRU take responsibility and produce daily statistics of carriage and delay / cancellation rates for trains, buses etc. like the INMO do for hospital a&e bed waiting lists, it's gotten that serious?!
Maybe they might produce the attendance figures per shift and the numbers rostered versus the numbers in attendance too??
HSE could do the same?
Two chances.0 -
Shurimgreat wrote: »I think Bus Eireann has had its day.
It was set up in an era when mass car ownership was not common.
It prospered when it was effectively a monopoly.
Today its no longer viable without significant state support which arguably could be spent on other things.
ah, this "it could be spent on other things" tripe, failed argument that has been proven a failure decades ago, because if funding is removed from a service it does not go to other services. i'm surprised how many don't get this still. transferring funding from one service to another is not how a countries budgeting works, or at least not ireland and the uk's budgeting.Shurimgreat wrote: »Even if the state does support it, that would be unfair on private operators.
so be it. who cares. fairness doesn't come into it, social benefit and social good does.Shurimgreat wrote: »The free travel subvention for pensioners is great and populist, but hardly helps. There's no reason why most pensioners (with a few exceptions) can't pay something towards the cost of travel.
no reason, however it's not their job. they either pay full fare or they have the free travel.Shurimgreat wrote: »The company is a basketcase controlled by unions who want our money with no efficiencies in return.
As a company its doomed.
the company is not a basket case and isn't controled by unions. efficientsies are slowly happening all the time, however management are dealing with the issues quickly now so the company may not be doomed depending how things proceed.Shurimgreat wrote: »I'm sure there is an alternative to a large state bus company which only seems to exist to bring pensioners here or there to hospital appointments.
Even a small local minivan company could do this job better.
Bus Eireann is a massive company catering to a relatively small number of paying customers. This business model is doomed to failure in the long run.
a massive company catering to a small number of people? really? you must be thinking of a different company because bus eireann actually cater to a rather sizable amount of people, who aren't all simply going to hospital appointments.Shurimgreat wrote: »In a perfect world, I'd allow pensioners free everything.
Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and pensioners have to be subsidised, sometimes by people who are worse off than them.
There are many rich pensioners. There are many poor workers and unemployed.
So yes many pensioners can easily afford to pay.
The issue is there are not enough paying customers of Bus Eireann's services.
As I said, the company is doomed sooner or later. Its business model is doomed to failure.
If Ryanair gave free travel to everyone over 65, it too would be doomed in the long run. In the short run it would have to raise prices for everyone else which would make it uncompetitive with rivals.
The free travel pass is great but ultimately it will undermine the survival of Bus Eireann.
it's not it's business model. it's the state's business model to subsidize services that are socially necessary but uneconomically viable. ryanair is irrelevant and what they do or don't do has no baring on this thread or bus eireann.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »ah, this "it could be spent on other things" tripe, failed argument that has been proven a failure decades ago, because if funding is removed from a service it does not go to other services. i'm surprised how many don't get this still. transferring funding from one service to another is not how a countries budgeting works, or at least not ireland and the uk's budgeting.
so be it. who cares. fairness doesn't come into it, social benefit and social good does.
no reason, however it's not their job. they either pay full fare or they have the free travel.
the company is not a basket case and isn't controled by unions. efficientsies are slowly happening all the time, however management are dealing with the issues quickly now so the company may not be doomed depending how things proceed.
Not fast enough.
Efficiencies are slowly happening and resisted at every turn by the union.
Meanwhile the company is going out of business fast.
Ultimately for it to survive, there will need to be routes cut, drivers let go, wages cut and possibly free travel reduced.
Of course the unions will resist that, its only natural. But in the absence of a better plan from them, it either happens or the company goes bust.0
This discussion has been closed.
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