The Grass Measuring Thread

charolais0153

freedominacup wrote: »

What's PDI? Almost every other measure of protein is better than cp. Digestible cp for starters, rumen degradable protein at minimum. The further down the digestive system a protein is digested the better the quality and the bigger the return.

He's talking about the French system i d say. Pdie etc

yosemitesam1

freedominacup wrote: »

What's PDI? Almost every other measure of protein is better than cp. Digestible cp for starters, rumen degradable protein at minimum. The further down the digestive system a protein is digested the better the quality and the bigger the return.

From the french system. Either energy or nitrogen is going to limit total protein so calculates a figure based on each with the lowest value taken. Biggest problem with it is it doesn't take into account the degradabilty rates/rumen passage. If you feed something like soy meal it will be slowly degraded and probably hang around a reasonable lenght of time in the rumen and will fit the value well. But when feeding very high protein grass you will have much more soluble rapidly degradable protein that will lead to large amounts being destroyed or passed as ammonia to stomach and can lead to the strange situation where your milk ureas are high but cows are short of protein.
The cornell system used in america will show up different protein types/solubilities better but still falls down in the area of rumen passage rates which will be much higher and variable on grass diets compared to tmr.

Username John

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Is there much supply of products like Fibrophos(burnt chicken ****) available in bulk over there?

Not to my knowledge Waffle... but I wouldn't be super knowledge in this area...

Also - bulk wouldn't really apply to me. I think I'd be classed as a 'good lifer' in your neck of the woods? (Is that the right term?)

Waffletraktor

Username John wrote: »

Not to my knowledge Waffle... but I wouldn't be super knowledge in this area...

Also - bulk wouldn't really apply to me. I think I'd be classed as a 'good lifer' in your neck of the woods? (Is that the right term?)

I mean it's a bulky thing like lime spread in tons not kg! but packed full of goodness, stinks a bit though. It's chicken shyte that's been burnt for heat/power in a power station and then ash is sold on.

Muckit

freedominacup wrote: »

What's PDI? Almost every other measure of protein is better than cp. Digestible cp for starters, rumen degradable protein at minimum. The further down the digestive system a protein is digested the better the quality and the bigger the return.

Only learning about it myself. A small bit in green cert book but more info here. It's essentially what you are saying:

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.aurivo.ie/wp-content/themes/aurivo/documents/net-energy-system.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjTyPnovZrSAhVJCMAKHXdaDz8QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNEw_6BrqgplPcM6riErU_p4pztg6w

Username John

Waffletraktor wrote: »

I mean it's a bulky thing like lime spread in tons not kg! but packed full of goodness, stinks a bit though. It's chicken shyte that's been burnt for heat/power in a power station and then ash is sold on.

This seems to be the only thing I could find which is similiar - but this is slag, which isn't really what you describe above...

http://www.precisionagireland.ie/Super_Slag_Basic.html

pedigree 6

Username John wrote: »

This seems to be the only thing I could find which is similiar - but this is slag, which isn't really what you describe above...

http://www.precisionagireland.ie/Super_Slag_Basic.html

The chicken manure ash stuff must be here. The process was developed in Limerick.

I heard a bit about this on Radio 1's Countrywide this morning.

https://fora.ie/bhsl-funding-3232447-Feb2017/

pedigree 6

Username John wrote: »

This seems to be the only thing I could find which is similiar - but this is slag, which isn't really what you describe above...

http://www.precisionagireland.ie/Super_Slag_Basic.html

Username John you had the burned poultry litter on that same website.
It's called Fibrophos.

http://www.fibrophos.co.uk/

Waffletraktor

Just noticed your issue is P, Can you get DAP fertiiliser put it on ?... Pricie but big p and n load.

Username John

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Just noticed your issue is P, Can you get DAP fertiiliser put it on ?... Pricie but big p and n load.

Cheers for that Waffle... DAP is new to me as well. Again, not sure where you source that over here?

I am liking the look of that slag - it has both P and pH - which is what I need rather than P and N... (must find out price)

Anyone any experience of it?

http://www.precisionagireland.ie/Super_Slag_Basic.html

*Pedigree6* - yeah, I see the fibrophos link on their page too... thanks (not sure how I managed to miss the BIG logo, but sure there you)

Mooooo

Maize starter fertilisers would be similar, I think. Dunno if you can get it with the high p here

Jacquesdalad

DAP (Diammonium phosphate) is 18N-46K. Commonly used as maize/osr/soya starter. Combined seeded.

MOP (Muriate of Potash/Potassium Chloride) is 50%P - 46%CL.

Mooooo

Jacquesdalad wrote: »

DAP (Diammonium phosphate) is 18N-46P. Commonly used as maize/osr/soya starter. Combined seeded.

MOP (Muriate of Potash/Potassium Chloride) is 50%P - 46%CL.

Your confused there potash is K, potassium. Sulfate of Potash is a better product in that regard but harder to get

Jacquesdalad

Mooooo wrote: »

Your confused there potash is K, potassium. Sulfate of Potash is a better product in that regard but harder to get

Sorry typo.

MOP used to be widely available years ago but hard to spread as very dusty.
Great product.

Waffletraktor

Username John wrote: »

Cheers for that Waffle... DAP is new to me as well. Again, not sure where you source that over here?

There is another few products, Triple super phosphate or Tsp which is crap as lots will be locked up instantly. SingleSuperPhosphate is another.
Map and Mop would be another 2 options and probably what is used to make up the blends available.

yosemitesam1

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

From the french system. Either energy or nitrogen is going to limit total protein so calculates a figure based on each with the lowest value taken. Biggest problem with it is it doesn't take into account the degradabilty rates/rumen passage. If you feed something like soy meal it will be slowly degraded and probably hang around a reasonable lenght of time in the rumen and will fit the value well. But when feeding very high protein grass you will have much more soluble rapidly degradable protein that will lead to large amounts being destroyed or passed as ammonia to stomach and can lead to the strange situation where your milk ureas are high but cows are short of protein.
The cornell system used in america will show up different protein types/solubilities better but still falls down in the area of rumen passage rates which will be much higher and variable on grass diets compared to tmr.

Checked this up just now. The undegradable protein in grass should be roughly 2% constant with the degradable content making up the rest, as cp% in grass is increased that should shift the balance a more towards non protein nitrogen (will become ammonia as soon as it hits the rumen) and I don't think this can be used with any real efficiency as its going to overload the system straight off and be pissed away.
The pdi system assumes all degradable n can be used with 90% efficiency so this will overrate grass's contribution. For grass around 20% cp cows on meal I'd say 80% is even on the optimistic side but that would probably drop to 55-60% as the total cp starts heading towards 30%.
So if you got a cp% of say 25, minus 2 to allow for the undegradable protein, multiply 23 by 0.64 and by whatever efficiency you recon based on conditions/cow performance, then add back your 2 and that should give a much more realistic pdin value to work off when deciding on meal protein %.

Edit to say that whatever values are on meal shouldn't really have to be altered

Muckit

My brain just self combusted

yosemitesam1

Muckit wrote: »

My brain just self combusted

Ha ya'd know I've fck all to be at today☺

But take that 27%cp mentioned. The official pdin would be 164g/kg but modifying it as above would give you about 120g/kg. Over 15 kg of grass that would be equal to about a kg of soymeal in the difference

Jacquesdalad

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Ha ya'd know I've fck all to be at today☺

But take that 27%cp mentioned. The official pdin would be 164g/kg but modifying it as above would give you about 120g/kg. Over 15 kg of grass that would be equal to about a kg of soymeal in the difference

So could it be assumed that high protein grass should be restricted for the most efficient use? On/off grazing or as a part of a tmr?

yosemitesam1

Jacquesdalad wrote: »

So could it be assumed that high protein grass should be restricted for the most efficient use? On/off grazing or as a part of a tmr?

Don't know really. If all you were after was maximum efficiency of nitrogen it probably would but that might'nt make economic sense. I think its more just something to be aware of so that you don't cut out the protein in meal too much through the summer.
If a fella had loads of cheap maize to use up could be different again...

GrasstoMilk

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Don't know really. If all you were after was maximum efficiency of nitrogen it probably would but that might'nt make economic sense. I think its more just something to be aware of so that you don't cut out the protein in meal too much through the summer.
If a fella had loads of cheap maize to use up could be different again...

Feeding maize here along side grass ATM.
How much would you feed alongside grass

Mooooo

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Feeding maize here along side grass ATM.
How much would you feed alongside grass

Would depend on how much grass you want them to eat I guess. Whatever grass they get in remainder from maize and parlour then, without with a second forage intakes can be higher than just one. 10 grass 7 maize 3 meal?

GrasstoMilk

Mooooo wrote: »

Would depend on how much grass you want them to eat I guess. Whatever grass they get in remainder from maize and parlour then, without with a second forage intakes can be higher than just one. 10 grass 7 maize 3 meal?

Whole herd eating around 13 ATM I think.
Getting 3/4 kg maize 3 meal and the rest in grass. Hard to jusge what there milking ATM but I wouldn't be overly wowed with it over others year considering every other year it would just have been meal and grass until grass got tight

Mooooo

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Whole herd eating around 13 ATM I think.
Getting 3/4 kg maize 3 meal and the rest in grass. Hard to jusge what there milking ATM but I wouldn't be overly wowed with it over others year considering every other year it would just have been meal and grass until grass got tight

How long you on it?, how's condition holding compared to other years? How much less meal than normal are you feeding when on grass? Holding condition would be the big thing with it and when fed with grass shouldn't need high p meal to balance. If they were on grass and silage would be the comparison to make.

GrasstoMilk

Mooooo wrote: »

How long you on it?, how's condition holding compared to other years? How much less meal than normal are you feeding when on grass? Holding condition would be the big thing with it and when fed with grass shouldn't need high p meal to balance. If they were on grass and silage would be the comparison to make.

About a week at this stage now.
Condition is good but we'd never let it drop here.
Would be feeding 3 kg other years too. I wanted to drop a kg of meal but boss wouldn't agree so may stick with 3 kg
16% nut

Jacquesdalad

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Feeding maize here along side grass ATM.
How much would you feed alongside grass

What's the analysis of the maize?

Keepgrowing

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Feeding maize here along side grass ATM.
How much would you feed alongside grass

Zero till the second round when your underpants start to tighten for 10 days

Keepgrowing

Jacquesdalad wrote: »

So could it be assumed that high protein grass should be restricted for the most efficient use? On/off grazing or as a part of a tmr?

You're welcome back

White Clover

Keepgrowing wrote: »

You're welcome back

You must not have enough cows calving to be so alert!!

Keepgrowing

White Clover wrote: »

You must not have enough cows calving to be so alert!!

Lol, flat out here 37% calved should hit 50 this week. Had afternoon off today and just back from a very fancy birthday meal for my oldest son. Off to bed soon

freedominacup

Keepgrowing wrote: »

You're welcome back

I was wondering how this noob was such a cocky fcuker. Good to have you back Jacque.

GrasstoMilk

Jacquesdalad wrote: »

What's the analysis of the maize?

28dm 35 starch 9 protein

Jacquesdalad

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

28dm 35 starch 9 protein

Assuming cows are on grass full time they would need 7kgdm/hd/day. That should be enough for 28kg-33kg milk. For an extra kick if bcs needs add 1kg rolled maize. No other meal needed.

Good maize btw. Out of interest what % cellulose is inc in the 35% starch?
Hard to get 35% starch at 28%dm.

Jacquesdalad

freedominacup wrote: »

I was wondering how this noob was such a cocky fcuker. Good to have you back Jacque.

Cocky moi??


Mod Note.

We'll stick to English, please, lads and lassies

Thanks.

BTJ.

Oguh46

Would you be kind enough to close both these user names please Sherif?

Thanking you, J.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Oguh46 wrote: »

Would you be kind enough to close both these user names please Sherif?

Thanking you, J.

Only the user can close their account, J.

Regards,

BTJ.

Keepgrowing

28% grazed and grass growing very well. Paddocks grazed in early Feb have 500 back on them. I've never seen spring growth like it.

50% calved, 70% of heifers. First calving 1/2/17 but start date was 14/2/17.

Bull calves being collected today, first sale. Put an ad on DD and got a guy who bought every bull over 7 days old.

freedominacup

Keepgrowing wrote: »

28% grazed and grass growing very well. Paddocks grazed in early Feb have 500 back on them. I've never seen spring growth like it.

50% calved, 70% of heifers. First calving 1/2/17 but start date was 14/2/17.

Bull calves being collected today, first sale. Put an ad on DD and got a guy who bought every bull over 7 days old.

42% grazed here. Close to.double what we had grazed this time last year. They were let off the chain around now to get over the 30 by first of Mar. First paddocks have close to 1000 I them. Grazed almost six weeks now. You have to play what's in front of you. At this stage I have little doubt about having enough grass when it comes to the start of the second round. Remaining area will be allocated and buffered to make it last to first of Apr.

yewtree

About 10-15% grazed here, we are on off grazing after each milking, tiny amount of silage when they come in after evening grazing and they dont have much interest. Cows are very content and milking very well.
Ground Conditions are only fair and it wouldn't want to get much wetter.
Plan here is finish 1st round 10th of April so i will be a bit behind lads on the eastern side of the country in terms of area grazed.
Green shoots on first paddocks grazed and i got an excellent response to urea at the end of January so on balance its been a good February here.

Mooooo

Not massive drying here, umbilical had to pull out of ground last night. Zero ground grazed so far. Once I get going can get thru it fast and have plenty maize to buffer if needed, was going to let em out today but paddocks are still too soft. Have heifers nearly finished kale which can speed things up if needed, some lads locally managing it neighbour has cows out on steep ground have seen a lot of proper red paddocks around as well. Annoying after dry winter

mahoney_j

Keepgrowing wrote: »

28% grazed and grass growing very well. Paddocks grazed in early Feb have 500 back on them. I've never seen spring growth like it.

50% calved, 70% of heifers. First calving 1/2/17 but start date was 14/2/17.

Bull calves being collected today, first sale. Put an ad on DD and got a guy who bought every bull over 7 days old.

25% currently grazed and should make 32/33% by 01 March ,unbelievable regrowth on paddocks already grazed going with full bag urea late Jan has really paid off ,going with slurry on grazed ground Monday .how much urea would you go with on next application which I'm planning on doing first week March ,thinking 35 units urea

GrasstoMilk

mahoney_j wrote: »

25% currently grazed and should make 32/33% by 01 March ,unbelievable regrowth on paddocks already grazed going with full bag urea late Jan has really paid off ,going with slurry on grazed ground Monday .how much urea would you go with on next application which I'm planning on doing first week March ,thinking 35 units urea

I'd only go with a half bag seeing as you already have a full bag out. A lot of that already be in the soil still.

28% grazed here. Cows out full time. Target to hit 40% grazed by march 1st

Keepgrowing

mahoney_j wrote: »

25% currently grazed and should make 32/33% by 01 March ,unbelievable regrowth on paddocks already grazed going with full bag urea late Jan has really paid off ,going with slurry on grazed ground Monday .how much urea would you go with on next application which I'm planning on doing first week March ,thinking 35 units urea

Full bag on hi index with 2.5 18/6/12 on lower ones. Soil results back but need a bit of time to study and make a plan. First priority is to get 1 bag urea on to out farm. It's a much later farm with older grasses and heifers winter grazing there

freedominacup

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Full bag on hi index with 2.5 18/6/12 on lower ones. Soil results back but need a bit of time to study and make a plan. First priority is to get 1 bag urea on to out farm. It's a much later farm with older grasses and heifers winter grazing there

I was thinking of getting 10-10-20 onto silage ground next week with urea on the remainder. Some of the silage area only index 2. Is it too late to apply lime?

Keepgrowing

mahoney_j wrote: »

25% currently grazed and should make 32/33% by 01 March ,unbelievable regrowth on paddocks already grazed going with full bag urea late Jan has really paid off ,going with slurry on grazed ground Monday .how much urea would you go with on next application which I'm planning on doing first week March ,thinking 35 units urea

I'd be more in Freedoms camp on grazing targets with the souls we have. Want first round finished before April 1 and buffer then if necessary rather than bollixing with bales now or for 3 weeks in March while trying to get cows to graze out paddocks. I've no problem going to 60% hi quality bales for a week or 10 days in April

mahoney_j

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Full bag on hi index with 2.5 18/6/12 on lower ones. Soil results back but need a bit of time to study and make a plan. First priority is to get 1 bag urea on to out farm. It's a much later farm with older grasses and heifers winter grazing there

Planned to hit all milking and heifer block with 2 bags 18s plus sulphur late March ,probs go with 35 units urea

Buford T. Justice XIX

freedominacup wrote: »

I was thinking of getting 10-10-20 onto silage ground next week with urea on the remainder. Some of the silage area only index 2. Is it too late to apply lime?

No, you will get plenty of rain to wash it in before closing. April would be cutting it fine unless you were sure there was rain coming.

Keepgrowing

freedominacup wrote: »

I was thinking of getting 10-10-20 onto silage ground next week with urea on the remainder. Some of the silage area only index 2. Is it too late to apply lime?

I'm going 10's and urea on silage ground also, how much 10's is my worry as I don't want it back in in the silage. Will be cutting first week of May.

Lime, I'd say you're dead safe but if it was me I'd spread onto silage stubble but that could affect a slurry application. Now would be great as you'll get plenty of rain, not in abundance down your country come summer

Keepgrowing

mahoney_j wrote: »

Planned to hit all milking and heifer block with 2 bags 18s plus sulphur late March ,probs go with 35 units urea

I'd be in the camp of 100 units of N out by first week of April, I know Teagasc recommend 70 but we are pushing tonnes grown to the max here and have the Sr. to handle it.

I'll then go with 35N and 14S trying to get 20 units of S out by June first

visatorro

0% grazed. On/off grazing doesn't work when working off farm. No fert out. Anywhere that got slurry out has moved well in last few days. Depending on next weeks weather if il get out or not. Was out last year on 19 Feb so disappointed but work won't allow me come home to bring in cows before a shower!!