Celbridge Draft Area Plan - 3500+ new houses

mloc123

Das Reich wrote: »

Best way to reduce traffic will be reducing the cost pf the bus. I remember the price was 1,80 € from Maynooth to Dublin and last time I used few years ago I payed 3,30 €. Too much money for such short distance, the trains were also expensive at 3 €. Thats why people uses only cars.

I am not convinced. At 3e it is 30e/week... I can't imagine driving is cheaper

Rain Ascending

So the "interim final" Local Area Plan has been published. See this link.

The good news is that the number of housing units planned has been reduced from the 4033 to 3519. Remember that the 4033 was the result of motions from the local councillors. At a recent meeting (14th of August), they seem to have voted to reduce the density of housing from 35 to 30 units per hectare for both the Simmonstown and Ballyoulster development areas. The full 600 units is still in for the Crodaun development. And despite a lot of discussion between various parties, the Donaghcumper town centre extension remains eliminated from the plan.

It has been reported in a number of local newspapers that the Minister for Environment is considering overruling one or more segments of the Local Area Plan. In particular, the Donaghcumper extension is something that the Minister and the Department favour. From the Leinster Leader:

On June 14, the Department, on behalf of the Minister, wrote to the Council saying, effectively, that it had not followed the recommended sequential zoning of lands in some area of the town and that it could not understand its logic.

It has zoned land further out from the town centre, at Crodaun and at the Maynooth road, and not zoned other land nearer to the town.

The Department said that the proposals for Donaghcumper were the only one which could allow for the expansion of Celbridge town centre and was a logical growth proposal for the town.

The Minister seems to have some powers to have parts of the plan changed. It remains to be seen if he will exercise them

Saint John paul

God I hope the feasibility study for the ring road gives the all clear to let them build this road from salesians to the clane road.
Did they make the zoning for housing bigger beside Crodaun.
All these new houses and no new ring road means grid lock on crodaun side of celbridge.

n97 mini

Das Reich wrote: »

Best way to reduce traffic will be reducing the cost pf the bus. I remember the price was 1,80 € from Maynooth to Dublin and last time I used few years ago I payed 3,30 €. Too much money for such short distance, the trains were also expensive at 3 €. Thats why people uses only cars.

Get yourself a Leap card. €2.60 instead of €3.30.

Most people drive because they need to go somewhere which isn't Dublin city centre. Unfortunately, Celbridge is a dormitory town in the planners' minds.

JDigweed

What exactly is the problem with the Donaghcumper town extension. From the main Dublin road the land is not visible anyway...perhaps some sort of a park following the Liffey banks could be built to balance the housing/commercial building. At the moment the river is wasted in the town hidden behind the main street, this is an opportunity to open it up.
Personally the main street is a disgrace at the moment and not fit for purpose in a town of near 20k population.

quadrifoglio verde

JDigweed wrote: »

What exactly is the problem with the Donaghcumper town extension. From the main Dublin road the land is not visible anyway...perhaps some sort of a park following the Liffey banks could be built to balance the housing/commercial building. At the moment the river is wasted in the town hidden behind the main street, this is an opportunity to open it up.
Personally the main street is a disgrace at the moment and not fit for purpose in a town of near 20k population.

But but but the views from castletown

mloc123

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

But but but the views from castletown

I get that... I understand that people think it will spoil castletown, but the supervalu development already has. I would be okay with the development that was planned providing they also turned the strip of land along the river into a green area/park. It would be great to 'extend castletown over the river and have pedestrian bridges etc..

daheff

mloc123 wrote: »

I am not convinced. At 3e it is 30e/week... I can't imagine driving is cheaper

maybe not, but the cost difference vs benefit to the car user would probably sway in favour of the car.

The additional cost of using the car vs the inconvenience/inflexibility/having to stand etc of the bus may make it more appealing for a lot of people to spend the extra money and drive (Especially if they can get free parking at work).

And for people like me, while I can get the bus/train to work, it means getting connections and hoping they all go smoothly & on time (which I know they wont).

Rain Ascending

Saint John paul wrote: »

God I hope the feasibility study for the ring road gives the all clear to let them build this road from salesians to the clane road.
Did they make the zoning for housing bigger beside Crodaun.
All these new houses and no new ring road means grid lock on crodaun side of celbridge.

I wouldn't be optimistic for the western ring road.

In the draft plan, about half the length would have been built by any developer of the Oldtown expansion because the road would have run through that development. In the new "interim final" version of the plan, the Oldtown expansion is very much smaller, meaning that the council would have to CPO nearly the full length and build it.

Central government funding might, might just be possible for a new bridge. For a piece of infrastructure like the western ring road that would open up further development on the north west side of town, I very much doubt it. The Department of the Environment is pushing heavily for development on the south side of the river to boost usage of Hazelhatch train station. The western ring road won't help that.

The "good" news is that reduction in size of the Oldtown expansion is from 1425 units to 411. Okay, our councillors voted to increase Crodaun from 450 to 600, but the totals on the western periphery have been reduced from 1975 to 1011 new units. The Maynooth road is going to see increased pressure, but it could have been worse... Not much consolation, I know.

Stealthirl

I may be misreading things but the development at Oldtown cant proceed until the Liffey bridge issue is addressed and the bit about how estates have developed on page25 is very much wrong. Abbey Farm,Celbridge Abbey,Ballymakealy were all there before 1998, Abbey Farm construction started in early 1990

Rain Ascending

Stealthirl wrote: »

I may be misreading things but the development at Oldtown cant proceed until the Liffey bridge issue is addressed

Hmm - can you give the page reference for that?

In the current plan, I'm looking at the tables on pages 73 and 74 that detail the phasing requirements. For Oldtown, the only phasing requirement is around childcare. It is the Simmonstown development that has the bridge as a prerequisite

Stealthirl

Sorry my bad its Simmonstown Got mixed up between Old/Newtown rd
I believe the best solution is a road from Wolstan's at the back of existing estates out to the Newtown Rd

raspberrypi67

300 Actually...

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

77 houses beside Aldi.

mloc123

raspberrypi67 wrote: »

300 Actually...

Panning is for 70ish... where are you getting 300 from?

http://idocsweb.kildarecoco.ie/iDocsWebDPSS/ViewFiles.aspx?docid=1895583&format=jpeg

Rain Ascending

And now things get interesting.

Damien English (Minister for Housing and Urban Development) has indicated that he will make two changes to the "interim final" Local Area Plan. More "interim" than "final", it seems. See this link for the detail of the changes and their justification. Scroll to the last page for the map.

In summary:

• The Donaghcumper town extension is re-instated.
• The segment of the Crodaun development area east of the Maynooth road is removed from the plan, reducing the total size from 600 down to roughly 300.

The reasoning given is consistent with the previous communication from the Department: namely the need for a bigger town centre with more facilities, developing areas close to the town centre rather than further away, development near strategic transport facilities, etc.

There will be a public consultation around these two changes -- see the associated letter.

My expectation is that the arguments over the next couple of weeks will get political very fast.

Rain Ascending

Kildare County Council has kick-started the public consultation. The deadline is 4 pm, 29th September. You can submit your views at the following link.

Time to nail my colours to the mast:

I support the Minister's changes.

Crodaun: Adding 600 dwellings on the outer reaches of the town on a road already heavy with traffic at peak hours is not a great idea. And while the same could be said of some of the other development areas, it is the furthest proposed zoning from the centre of the town. So reducing the size to 300 units is an improvement.

Donaghcumper: This is the controversial one. And it's also the critical one to the future of the town, to grow the centre from it's current one-street centre. As a reminder, the population of Celbridge is, from the 2016 census, over 20000, the same size as Wexford!

The Donaghcumper extension develops a field with no current public access, to join Main Street with the St Wolstan's Shopping Centre (SuperValu), the most diverse of the four or so district shopping centres scattered around Celbridge. Benefits:

• By joining these two shopping areas, we'd triple the centre of town.
• The existing (free) car park at St Wolstan's would become the de facto parking for the town centre, attracting more footfall to the centre.
• Opening up the river to public access right in the heart of the town -- currently that access is limited to the pedestrian bridge.
• Addition of a second pedestrian bridge that improves permeability across the river -- critically important as the local area plan envisages more residential expansion on the south side of the river, even as most of the social and commercial infrastructure is on the north side.

I agree. It's a big trade-off (sacrificing some land/green space) but we can't just add 10,000 people to the existing town. There are some things I'm not thrilled about in the plan (a road likely to run near my house) - but tough. Taken as a whole, it's the way to go.

ZV Yoda

Rain Ascending wrote: »

Kildare County Council has kick-started the public consultation. The deadline is 4 pm, 29th September. You can submit your views at the following link.

The Donaghcumper extension develops a field with no current public access, to join Main Street with the St Wolstan's Shopping Centre (SuperValu), the most diverse of the four or so district shopping centres scattered around Celbridge. Benefits:

• By joining these two shopping areas, we'd triple the centre of town.
• The existing (free) car park at St Wolstan's would become the de facto parking for the town centre, attracting more footfall to the centre.
• Opening up the river to public access right in the heart of the town -- currently that access is limited to the pedestrian bridge.
• Addition of a second pedestrian bridge that improves permeability across the river -- critically important as the local area plan envisages more residential expansion on the south side of the river, even as most of the social and commercial infrastructure is on the north side.

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree. It's a big trade-off (sacrificing some land/green space) but we can just add 10,000 people to the existing town. There are some things I'm not thrilled about in the plan (a road likely to run near my house) but tough. Taken as a whole, it's the way to go.

Who currently owns the land at Donaghcumper? What is it used for? As long as the development is properly planned, I have to agree that it makes perfect sense to develop Donaghcumper land to create a proper town centre.

As stated above, this would link / consolidate the existing commercial areas (the village & Wolstan's Shopping Centre), creating a substantial town centre with great potential for introducing leisure, retail & other commercial amenities to the town. A significant portion of the new town centre could have river frontage which could bring real character to the town & would revitalise the existing village. It could be a fantastic place. On top of that, there's still plenty of green open spaces in the grounds of Castletown (which should remain untouched).

I’ve lived here for nearly 20 years and the village increasingly feels like a desolate place that lacks character or atmosphere. It’s not somewhere I’d go just for the fun of it. Between traffic congestion and lack of parking, it can be a real pain to get anything done there. The only reason I’d venture into the village during the day is if I need to use the bank or post office. Evenings / night-time, maybe for a meal or a pint. Other than that, it holds no appeal. Heading into the village for a week-end coffee / stroll / shopping would never even enter my head.

The proposal to use St Raphael's land to expand the town centre never made any sense to me. It would spread an already disjointed town centre even further apart. I don’t understand how they came up with that idea.

2ndcoming

I've never even considered it much of a trade-off, it's a no-brainer. Castletown and lands will still be one of the finest public green spaces in Ireland, and the town itself will get some desperately needed development on a site that the vast majority have never seen or set foot on.

I dearly hope they come up with some kind of leisure or other activities for teenagers. The demographics of the town mean there are lots of groups hanging around - mostly causing no trouble - but it's inevitable that anti-social behaviour will follow if we don't do something for them. (I know the Youth Cafe hasn't gone as well as had been hoped but that's no reason to give up!)

My kids are not yet teenagers and I'd really like them to have options other than hanging around service stations and playgrounds in the evening.

ZV Yoda

Deleted User wrote: »

I dearly hope they come up with some kind of leisure or other activities for teenagers. The demographics of the town mean there are lots of groups hanging around - mostly causing no trouble - but it's inevitable that anti-social behaviour will follow if we don't do something for them. (I know the Youth Cafe hasn't gone as well as had been hoped but that's no reason to give up!)

My kids are not yet teenagers and I'd really like them to have options other than hanging around service stations and playgrounds in the evening.

Couldn't agree more. Base is a great resource for teenagers, but it's too far out of town & is not easily accessible without a car. Something like Base located in the new town centre could work really well. It could easily incorporate a small venue (like the Draoicht Arts Centre in Blanchardstown) that could be used for gigs, cinema, shows etc.

corm500

Yep, that town centre extension needs to go ahead. Otherwise Celbridge will end up like a doughnut, with all the retail on the outskirts and a dead main street. Donaghcumper is an empty walled off field that I doubt anyone has ever been in. Ridiculous carry on for the councilors to vote against it. Just goes to show they do not have the best interests of Celbridge at heart. They are more interested in appeasing An Taisce. Fair play to the minister for actually doing his job, lets hope some others start to do theirs.

Stealthirl

Now maybe they could also sort out a 2nd bridge properly FAST

Rain Ascending

corm500 wrote: »

Yep, that town centre extension needs to go ahead. Otherwise Celbridge will end up like a doughnut, with all the retail on the outskirts and a dead main street. Donaghcumper is an empty walled off field that I doubt anyone has ever been in. Ridiculous carry on for the councilors to vote against it. Just goes to show they do not have the best interests of Celbridge at heart. They are more interested in appeasing An Taisce. Fair play to the minister for actually doing his job, lets hope some others start to do theirs.

I agree with your analysis of the geography of Celbridge.

But I don't think An Taisce is in the minds of the councillors when they vote against development in Donaghcumper. That's more due to a well-organized, articulate campaign group that opposes any development there, Celbridge Action Alliance. A simple example -- for the last consultation, they photocopied their submission en masse and went around looking for signatures. As a result they had over 2000 such, identical submissions to put into the system. Councillors pay attention to this.

So my suggestion: if you wish to make your own voice heard, make your own submission on KCC's website and send copies to the relevant councillors. I'm pretty sure that they will be making submissions themselves on the Minister's changes.

ZV Yoda

Stealthirl wrote: »

Now maybe they could also sort out a 2nd bridge properly FAST

Yip, or figure out some way to significantly expand the existing bridge (not easy I know).

Rain Ascending wrote: »

I agree with your analysis of the geography of Celbridge.

But I don't think An Taisce is in the minds of the councillors when they vote against development in Donaghcumper. That's more due to a well-organized, articulate campaign group that opposes any development there, Celbridge Action Alliance. A simple example -- for the last consultation, they photocopied their submission en masse and went around looking for signatures. As a result they had over 2000 such, identical submissions to put into the system. Councillors pay attention to this.

So my suggestion: if you wish to make your own voice heard, make your own submission on KCC's website and send copies to the relevant councillors. I'm pretty sure that they will be making submissions themselves on the Minister's changes.

Celbridge Action Alliance seem to be a very well organised group alright. I still don't understand why they are objecting to the Donaghcumper expansion - especially when they supported all of the other proposals in the LAP.

The grounds & facilities at Castletown are a fantastic public resource, so it's not as if we lack green space around Celbridge. Who benefits from preventing the Donaghcumper development?

mloc123

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Yip, or figure out some way to significantly expand the existing bridge (not easy I know).



Celbridge Action Alliance seem to be a very well organised group alright. I still don't understand why they are objecting to the Donaghcumper expansion - especially when they supported all of the other proposals in the LAP.

The grounds & facilities at Castletown are a fantastic public resource, so it's not as if we lack green space around Celbridge. Who benefits from preventing the Donaghcumper development?

I assume they were outside Castletown about 2 months back getting signatures? They claim the new development will ruin the view from Castletown... the view that is already 'ruined' by Supervalu.

corm500

Celbridge Action Alliance seem to be a very well organised group alright. I still don't understand why they are objecting to the Donaghcumper expansion - especially when they supported all of the other proposals in the LAP.

The grounds & facilities at Castletown are a fantastic public resource, so it's not as if we lack green space around Celbridge. Who benefits from preventing the Donaghcumper development?

If you go on to the Celbridge Action Alliance Facebook page, its filled with lovely pictures of the Liffey and very emotive language about how this will be lost. Thing is, none of the photos are from anywhere near Donaghcumper. Either they are confused or they are misleading their supporters.

ZV Yoda

mloc123 wrote: »

I assume they were outside Castletown about 2 months back getting signatures? They claim the new development will ruin the view from Castletown... the view that is already 'ruined' by Supervalu.

I remember them collecting signatures at the gates of Castletown a few months ago.

What view is being ruined? All we (the public) can see is the big wall surrounding Donaghcumper.

corm500 wrote: »

If you go on to the Celbridge Action Alliance Facebook page, its filled with lovely pictures of the Liffey and very emotive language about how this will be lost. Thing is, none of the photos are from anywhere near Donaghcumper. Either they are confused or they are misleading their supporters.

Yeah, I had a look at their page earlier & thought exactly the same thing. Maybe they are well intentioned, but I really don't understand their motives.

Joe Public

Concerning the development of Donaghcumper Demesne the proposals in 2008 caused concern, especially the high rise apartment blocks. The concern has not gone away.
Any possible new proposals would have to be sensitive to the preservation of the liffey Valley and the privacy of the back gardens and residents on the village side of the Liffey.


Planning Application 438/08 Donaghcumper Demesne, Donaghcumper, Celbridge.

The development is comprised 648 residential units (72 No 1 bed apartments, 476 No 2-bed apartments, 79 No 3 bed apartments, 14 No. 3bed townhouse unit and 7 No 2 bed work/live units.)
Overall commercial floor space of 47,304 square m (excluding basement car parking…) a crèche of 650 sq.m and civic centre of 1,400 sq.m..

There are 9 blocks proposed ranging in height from 2-8 storey’s.
Street Layout includes a new spine road and bridge linking Dublin Road to Main Street close to Castletown Gates.

Planning Application 439/08 Donaghcumper Demesne, Donaghcumper,

Celbridge.Residential Development comprising 108 houses to the east of Donaghcumper House.

corm500

Joe Public wrote: »

Concerning the development of Donaghcumper Demesne the proposals in 2008 caused concern, especially the high rise apartment blocks. The concern has not gone away.
Any possible new proposals would have to be sensitive to the preservation of the liffey Valley and the privacy of the back gardens and residents on the village side of the Liffey.


Planning Application 438/08 Donaghcumper Demesne, Donaghcumper, Celbridge.

The development is comprised 648 residential units (72 No 1 bed apartments, 476 No 2-bed apartments, 79 No 3 bed apartments, 14 No. 3bed townhouse unit and 7 No 2 bed work/live units.)
Overall commercial floor space of 47,304 square m (excluding basement car parking…) a crèche of 650 sq.m and civic centre of 1,400 sq.m..

There are 9 blocks proposed ranging in height from 2-8 storey’s.
Street Layout includes a new spine road and bridge linking Dublin Road to Main Street close to Castletown Gates.

Planning Application 439/08 Donaghcumper Demesne, Donaghcumper,

Celbridge.Residential Development comprising 108 houses to the east of Donaghcumper House.

This is the 2008 proposal, not what is outlined in the new area plan. 8 stories was never going to happen in Celbridge nor should it. They cant even get that in the City Centre.