Celbridge Draft Area Plan - 3500+ new houses

mloc123

corm500 wrote: »

This is the 2008 proposal, not what is outlined in the new area plan. 8 stories was never going to happen in Celbridge nor should it. They cant even get that in the City Centre.

What was outlined in the new plan? Is there any more detail on it?

Riskymove

mloc123 wrote: »

What was outlined in the new plan? Is there any more detail on it?

There isn't a specific planning application yet.

The direction is that Donaghcomper be zoned for development as a Town Centre as oppossed to open space/amemity

Riskymove

Article today

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/minister-to-allow-town-centre-fronting-finest-stately-home-1.3229564?mode=amp

Rain Ascending

Joe Public wrote: »

Concerning the development of Donaghcumper Demesne the proposals in 2008 caused concern, especially the high rise apartment blocks. The concern has not gone away.
Any possible new proposals would have to be sensitive to the preservation of the liffey Valley and the privacy of the back gardens and residents on the village side of the Liffey.

Yes, agreed that we need a good design for the area.

The good news is that proposed development area is at a much smaller scale:

• The area is less than one third of that of the 2008 proposals.
• The number of dwellings expected is be about one fifth of that the 2008 proposal (working off your figures).
• There is provision for a green zone along the river.

This is a much better starting point than in 2008. It has the right scale and scope - which is what you are looking for in a local area plan.

One interesting question is whether or not concerns for the Liffey will be replicated if/when we finally get to assess proposals for the new bridge...

Saint John paul

I for one are delighted at the Ministers decision at over turning the zoning at Crodaun.
They had the submission done so well conceded land to the Council sure to get it zoned.
If you help the council, the council will work for you.
As for the town centre zoning a great idea.

Well done Minister well done.

mullyboyee

Stealthirl wrote: »

Now maybe they could also sort out a 2nd bridge properly FAST

There is already a completed study which proposed 4 possible solutions to the need for a second bridge over the Liffey and a rationale behind each.

No doubt locals will have a whinge about any new bridge/road that leads traffic anywhere near their house.

Eddie Air

I honestly don't "get" the almost hysterical reaction from some quarters to a proposed town centre which will infill the area from Castletown Slip across to St Wolstan's SC? Surely it's a completely logical step - the Devondale proposal from 2008 was too bulky (and ambitious?), but the present version would undoubtedly enhance and develop Celbridge as we head towards future growth. Opening up the Donaghcumper wall from SuperValu to the bridge would be a wonderful development - I have seen social media posts claiming the "view" from Castletown would be ruined. I cycled the avenue a few times today in the sunshine and I still don't buy that argument - I'm not dismissing it, but have yet to see a compelling case put forward).
I have lived in Celbridge for 40 years, I remember school debates from the mid 1980's(!) in Salesian College about the ridiculous development of the infastructure in Celbridge - it was obvious to us the M4 interchange should have been built with the motorway, not years afterwards - and the town needed a 2nd (& 3rd) vehicular bridge crossing to relieve the Main St; a street that has always suffered from heavy traffic. Now is the chance to develop a town centre with a new vista of the Liffey ahead of many more new houses. Well done minister...

JDigweed

Here's an idea.....with a new town centre opening up the liffey why not pedestrianise the main street. The maynooth road continuing on over the liffey towards Super Valu, the main road across the bridge continuing as normal toward Clane road with local access to St Patricks Park kept in place. You could have a pedestrianised section from O'Connors to the corner at Michealangelos linked by pedestrian footbridges. Encourage restaurants, cafes to open and get rid of take aways, more pound shops etc.
Just an idea.....the residents association might have my head on a plate for even thinking it though

Riskymove

JDigweed wrote: »

Here's an idea.....with a new town centre opening up the liffey why not pedestrianise the main street. T

that would seem to close off access to church and school and their carparks

2ndcoming

Not the best at drawing these but that's the ideal I reckon. One way loop with various entry / exit points.

Would also allow for substantial widening of the main street paving.

mloc123

https://www.facebook.com/walshspharmacycelbridge/posts/1510389032342093

Of course the fact that the Walsh family own half the main street would not be part of his motivation

Rain Ascending

mloc123 wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/walshspharmacycelbridge/posts/1510389032342093

Of course the fact that the Walsh family own half the main street would not be part of his motivation

Good grief. That Facebook posting is so over the top, that I even entertained the idea for a minute that it was a hoax...

Joe Public

JDigweed wrote: »

Here's an idea.....with a new town centre opening up the liffey why not pedestrianise the main street. ..........

All sounds lovely but I think the businesses on the Main St. would not be happy as the car parks would be cut off.

mloc123

Rain Ascending wrote: »

Good grief. That Facebook posting is so over the top, that I even entertained the idea for a minute that it was a hoax...

You would think that they planned to build a housing estate on the front lawn of Castletown based on the reaction online.

My Facebook feed is mental. People sharing Dr Walsh's plea to the Minister to stop the Council from 'destroying Celbridge' is going mini-viral. In addition to the enormous conflicts of interest, he doesn't even understand what's happening. The Minister/Dept are 'destroying' the town; the councillors tried to 'save' it - if you follow his logic.

Of course, I would say that councillors caved to a tiny but vocal minority while the Dept had to step in and act like the only adults in the room.

The mindlessness with which people share these hysterical posts on Facebook will scupper any chance of fixing what's wrong with the town. There's no reverse button. It's either pause or fast-forward. We can't go back to having a few thousand people and a few hundred cars.

If some local doctors had had their way, the primary care centre wouldn't have gone ahead despite the current and projected needs of the local population.

Also, Halo - which is a great little place - are acting as though they want to save a public amenity. The land in question isn't really public at present. Unfortunately, it's hard not to suspect that their concern is that a proper town centre might harm their prospects. Sorry to say that, I really like Halo!

mloc123

Deleted User wrote: »

My Facebook feed is mental. People sharing Dr Walsh's plea to the Minister to stop the Council from 'destroying Celbridge' is going mini-viral. In addition to the enormous conflicts of interest, he doesn't even understand what's happening. The Minister/Dept are 'destroying' the town; the councillors tried to 'save' it - if you follow his logic.

Of course, I would say that councillors caved to a tiny but vocal minority while the Dept had to step in and act like the only adults in the room.

The mindlessness with which people share these hysterical posts on Facebook will scupper any chance of fixing what's wrong with the town. There's no reverse button. It's either pause or fast-forward. We can't go back to having a few thousand people and a few hundred cars.

If some local doctors had had their way, the primary care centre wouldn't have gone ahead despite the current and projected needs of the local population.

Also, Halo - which is a great little place - are acting as though they want to save a public amenity. The land in question isn't really public at present. Unfortunately, it's hard not to suspect that their concern is that a proper town centre might harm their prospects. Sorry to say that, I really like Halo!

Same, I like Halo... I like the guy that runs it even if I don't know his name... but he is very vocal about this on Twitter and it is annoying.

I suspect that most of the people objecting to this are people that have some interest in maintaining the limited space that exists on the main st.

I read some posts on that Facebook msg saying, don't build anymore houses... leave the whole area exactly as it is. If everyone had that attitude 40 years ago the population would still be around 2500.

There is no reason that the development across the river cannot go ahead and preserve the area also. The 'view' has already been damaged by the Supervalu development.

What I would like to see is... Parkland with cycle path/walk ways along the other side of the river with a retail units and maybe even some town houses etc... 2 pedestrian bridges, one from within the grounds and one mid way up main street joining the whole village up.

CCR

The Facebook outrage is mental. People making objections without knowing the actual plan. Just basing it on what the read on Facebook posts.

Unfortunately people in favour of these plans usually don't make submissions.

Rain Ascending

CCR wrote: »

The Facebook outrage is mental. People making objections without knowing the actual plan. Just basing it on what the read on Facebook posts.

Unfortunately people in favour of these plans usually don't make submissions.

Rain Ascending wrote: »

So my suggestion: if you wish to make your own voice heard, make your own submission on KCC's website and send copies to the relevant councillors. I'm pretty sure that they will be making submissions themselves on the Minister's changes.

Well there is still time to make a submission -- the deadline is tomorrow (Friday) at 16:00. The link (at "KCC's website") is given in my posting quoted above.

Also, see attached for the area under question outlined in red, i.e. the segment of Donaghcumper proposed for development as a town centre extension.

mullyboyee

Facebook posts like that would drive you to despair.

Hopefully the Minister puts paid to the spineless councillors notions.

Joe Public

You can understand that traders are worried about a threat of a new town centre and will take from the existing and kill off the village as has happened elsewhere. If Donaghcumper gets rezoned it will probably be residential only with no new bridges to the Main St. - just my opinion/guess.
The current bridge needs to be widened or something done to improve the traffic flow.

BlackWizard

Joe Public wrote: »

...
The current bridge needs to be widened or something done to improve the traffic flow.

2ndcoming had a decent idea of making that area one way. Its on the previous page.

Joe Public

BlackWizard wrote: »

2ndcoming had a decent idea of making that area one way. Its on the previous page.

And making a big assumption of a bridge at the slip.

A one way system including the Main St. would not go down very well, it would confuse visitors and many locals, it would make some short journeys a lot longer, it would increase traffic speed during the quiet times.

If there was a bridge at the slip there would be no need for a one way system.

Rain Ascending

Joe Public wrote: »

You can understand that traders are worried about a threat of a new town centre and will take from the existing and kill off the village as has happened elsewhere. If Donaghcumper gets rezoned it will probably be residential only with no new bridges to the Main St. - just my opinion/guess.
The current bridge needs to be widened or something done to improve the traffic flow.

Some interesting points here. I suspect that the opening of St Wolstan's shopping centre has weakened Main Street. St Wolstan's easily accessed, free car parking combined with a reasonably interesting retail offering, is probably the most attractive retail center in Celbridge. By way of contrast, Main Street often has heavy traffic, poor access to hassle-free parking and a shrinking range of shops. My guess is that the closure of the Spar on Main Street was at least in part due to the success of SuperValu in St Wolstan's.

So what's the answer? Build a new car park? Create a more interesting streetscape or attractive adjacent green space? Or build new streets to create a more diverse retail offering, with critical mass? As discussed before, the council has opted for the latter two options, with the St. Raphael's and Donaghcumper town extensions.

You raise an interesting point around the nature of the Donaghcumper extension. The original draft LAP was very clear that it was to be a mixed use area: "retail, office, residential, community and amenity uses". Hard to see how an Bord Pleanala would accept a pure residential proposal. As for the pedestrian bridge, I'd be optimistic on that score. The draft LAP listed that bridge and the new public open space along the Liffey as prerequisites that have to be in place before the rest of Donaghcumper can be developed.

CCR

I'm only in Celbridge 3 years with young family and main issue i see with what's on main street is accessibility. Older buildings that don't have easy access or space for buggys or wheelchairs.

The town has a young population with a lot of parents of young kids. So a new town centre could hopefully cater for this demographic.

In my opinion, the town badly needs some decent cafes and restaurants. Only decent places on main street are Baobab and Creed for coffee, and Canteen for (special occasion) dinner.

Shandon

Are there are any plans for a playground on the hazelhatch side of the town? That seems to be where most of the young kids in the town live. The one beside aghards school is a great resource despite being overrun by older kids and teenagers most of the time.

2ndcoming

Joe Public wrote: »

And making a big assumption of a bridge at the slip.

A one way system including the Main St. would not go down very well, it would confuse visitors and many locals, it would make some short journeys a lot longer, it would increase traffic speed during the quiet times.

If there was a bridge at the slip there would be no need for a one way system.

It would appease main street traders though for one thing, would close to guarantee they get as much traffic as any new businesses on other side. I don't think it would add much of a journey time to anyone? People coming down Maynooth Rd to Main St by car would have a very slight detour but a lot better than having to sit in traffic the length of the street as they do now most of the time.

Think the bridge at the Slip has been and will always be the only sensible solution at the end of the day.

Hazelhatch Greenway

Bridge solution needs funding (approx €10m), and is at least 3 years away from being open to traffic according to Frank O'Rourke.

The main focus at this stage is Donaghcumper. Any development at Donaghcumper, along with the huge lands rezoned as Residential at Ballyoulster will surely have a significant impact on traffic on Dublin/Lucan Road. Nevermind the Main Street and bridge.

No development should start until the bridge solution has been agreed.
But the reality is that Celbridge residents will need to suffer through several more years of this.

We need ideas to improve the situation, which can be presented to the local councillors & Kildare CC.

Some ideas:
1. Ban HGVs from Main Street & Bridge
2. Minibus to collect kids for GAA Club
3. Minibus improved service to train station
4. New bus route from "Celbridge North/West" (Tesco area) to city centre via Maynooth Road, Applegreen Road, M4.

daheff

Hazelhatch Greenway wrote: »

Some ideas:
1. Ban HGVs from Main Street & Bridge
2. Minibus to collect kids for GAA Club
3. Minibus improved service to train station
4. New bus route from "Celbridge North/West" (Tesco area) to city centre via Maynooth Road, Applegreen Road, M4.

1. Cant see a lot of HGVs using the main st anyways. most go in/out via M4
2.Why? Can their parents not bring them? OR let them cycle like we used to in the olden days
3. Agree. Especially for peak times
4. Not sure this will happen. More likely some 67s coming from Maynooth will go right at Tesco towards Clane road and come back to the village that way & then on towards Lucan.

mloc123

daheff wrote: »

1. Cant see a lot of HGVs using the main st anyways. most go in/out via M4
2.Why? Can their parents not bring them? OR let them cycle like we used to in the olden days
3. Agree. Especially for peak times
4. Not sure this will happen. More likely some 67s coming from Maynooth will go right at Tesco towards Clane road and come back to the village that way & then on towards Lucan.

1, They do... one of the hold ups on the bridge is due to HGVs or busses. The main hold up being people turning right after crossing the bring (either direction).
2, I assume this would be to replace 20-30 cars with a single bus at peak times on Saturday. Can't see it happening, who would fund it?
3, It would be nice to run a shuttle bus to Louisa Bridge as well as Hazelhatch. People living the other side of Tesco are probably closer to there than they are Hazelhatch.
4, 67x already does this.

mloc123

Hazelhatch Greenway wrote: »

Bridge solution needs funding (approx €10m), and is at least 3 years away from being open to traffic according to Frank O'Rourke.

The main focus at this stage is Donaghcumper. Any development at Donaghcumper, along with the huge lands rezoned as Residential at Ballyoulster will surely have a significant impact on traffic on Dublin/Lucan Road. Nevermind the Main Street and bridge.

No development should start until the bridge solution has been agreed.
But the reality is that Celbridge residents will need to suffer through several more years of this.

We need ideas to improve the situation, which can be presented to the local councillors & Kildare CC.

Some ideas:
1. Ban HGVs from Main Street & Bridge
2. Minibus to collect kids for GAA Club
3. Minibus improved service to train station
4. New bus route from "Celbridge North/West" (Tesco area) to city centre via Maynooth Road, Applegreen Road, M4.

Your username reminds me of what I would really like to see... a cycle path from Hazelhatch to Adamstown... the continuation of what exists from town to Adamstown.