Celbridge Draft Area Plan - 3500+ new houses

The Mulk

Hazelhatch Greenway wrote: »

Bridge solution needs funding (approx €10m), and is at least 3 years away from being open to traffic according to Frank O'Rourke.

The main focus at this stage is Donaghcumper. Any development at Donaghcumper, along with the huge lands rezoned as Residential at Ballyoulster will surely have a significant impact on traffic on Dublin/Lucan Road. Nevermind the Main Street and bridge.

No development should start until the bridge solution has been agreed.
But the reality is that Celbridge residents will need to suffer through several more years of this.

We need ideas to improve the situation, which can be presented to the local councillors & Kildare CC.

Some ideas:
1. Ban HGVs from Main Street & Bridge
2. Minibus to collect kids for GAA Club
3. Minibus improved service to train station
4. New bus route from "Celbridge North/West" (Tesco area) to city centre via Maynooth Road, Applegreen Road, M4.

Why only the GAA club, you also have the tennis club, Ballyoulster and the Astro/Driving Range on this side of the bridge.
And then what about the Hazelhatch side kids that play for Celbridge Town
Maybe a monorail of some description going between all the schools and sports clubs:p

Rain Ascending

mloc123 wrote: »

Your username reminds me of what I would really like to see... a cycle path from Hazelhatch to Adamstown... the continuation of what exists from town to Adamstown.

Well, the Local Area Plan supports the Great Dublin Area Cycle Network Plan. It copies from that plan the proposed cycle network for Celbridge (see page 10 in the "Proposed Network for Towns" section) , including a link along the Hazelhatch Road to the proposed Grand Canal Greenway extension from Adamstown to Celbridge. The extension for the Greenway along the canal doesn't look all that long. Anybody know how extensive/difficult the work might be to complete the Greenway out to Celbridge?

mloc123

Rain Ascending wrote: »

Well, the Local Area Plan supports the Great Dublin Area Cycle Network Plan. It copies from that plan the proposed cycle network for Celbridge (see page 10 in the "Proposed Network for Towns" section) , including a link along the Hazelhatch Road to the proposed Grand Canal Greenway extension from Adamstown to Celbridge. The extension for the Greenway along the canal doesn't look all that long. Anybody know how extensive/difficult the work might be to complete the Greenway out to Celbridge?

Issue along the stretch from Hazelhatch to Adamstown... it floods. During winter time there could be up to a foot of water on the current trail near here: https://goo.gl/maps/wK1kHtoGBMk

It would be great to have a cycle path along there. I cycle into town using the Adamstown section (via peamont from Celbridge) and it is so much more enjoyable than sharing the N4. Rabbits, ducks, herons etc... on the way in and other local 'wildlife' on the way home.

2ndcoming

The Mulk wrote: »

Why only the GAA club, you also have the tennis club, Ballyoulster and the Astro/Driving Range on this side of the bridge.
And then what about the Hazelhatch side kids that play for Celbridge Town
Maybe a monorail of some description going between all the schools and sports clubs:p

It's not about providing a service for the GAA club, it's about solving the problem for the town that is hundreds of cars dropping kids up to the GAA club blocking the bridge with their indicator on to turn up the Hatch Rd.

If you spot the main st. solid with traffic anytime soon, take a spin up the GAA club and you're guaranteed there's either training or matches on.

2ndcoming

Hazelhatch Greenway wrote: »

We need ideas to improve the situation, which can be presented to the local councillors & Kildare CC.

Some ideas:
1. Ban HGVs from Main Street & Bridge
2. Minibus to collect kids for GAA Club
3. Minibus improved service to train station
4. New bus route from "Celbridge North/West" (Tesco area) to city centre via Maynooth Road, Applegreen Road, M4.

This is a big one because it directly relates to the one main street business that a) has regular HGV traffic and b) has absolutely no place in the centre of a 'historic town'.

Also c) occupies prime real estate in the centre of town that could be opened up to become a village square type of place.

The Mulk

2ndcoming wrote: »

It's not about providing a service for the GAA club, it's about solving the problem for the town that is hundreds of cars dropping kids up to the GAA club blocking the bridge with their indicator on to turn up the Hatch Rd.

If you spot the main st. solid with traffic anytime soon, take a spin up the GAA club and you're guaranteed there's either training or matches on.

My point was why only mention the GAA club when there are more clubs on the Hazelhatch side adding cars to the bridge. The amount of cars up at Ballyoulster every weeknight and Sat/Sun mornings would attest to that.
Closing off the Hatch Road, making cars turn at Supervalu would make more sense

2ndcoming

The Mulk wrote: »

My point was why only mention the GAA club when there are more clubs on the Hazelhatch side adding cars to the bridge. The amount of cars up at Ballyoulster every weeknight and Sat/Sun mornings would attest to that.
Closing off the Hatch Road, making cars turn at Supervalu would make more sense

Was tried and it didn't work unfortunately. Mostly due to Grove / Simmonstown area residents having to take a detour to their houses.

Ballyoulster not as bad really as it doesn't involve stopping on the bridge, it's a straight run through. Also most of their youth teams are in DDSL so hosting Dublin teams whereas most North Kildare area GAA teams come in the Clane Rd and add to the problem.

The Mulk

2ndcoming wrote: »

Was tried and it didn't work unfortunately. Mostly due to Grove / Simmonstown area residents having to take a detour to their houses.

Ballyoulster not as bad really as it doesn't involve stopping on the bridge, it's a straight run through. Also most of their youth teams are in DDSL so hosting Dublin teams whereas most North Kildare area GAA teams come in the Clane Rd and add to the problem.

Keep the Ardclough Road open, just close off the Hatch Road, or make it one way, would cut out all the traffic turning off the bridge to the Hatch Road. It would certainly make the bridge safer, although the new estates and the Little Grove would be inconvenienced.
I just can't see the practicalities of organising a bus to bring kids to training/matches in the locality , 3 buses every evening at 5,6 and 7? and return
Maybe 3-4 buses Sat/Sun morning depending on Kick Off times, Where would the buses collect from. It seems over kill

daheff

2ndcoming wrote: »

This is a big one because it directly relates to the one main street business that a) has regular HGV traffic and b) has absolutely no place in the centre of a 'historic town'.

Also c) occupies prime real estate in the centre of town that could be opened up to become a village square type of place.

Why should they give up prime real estate/ trading area because you want a village square? Sure it would be nice to have it, but if you were to CPO it, there would be a huge bill to pay.

The Mulk wrote: »

My point was why only mention the GAA club when there are more clubs on the Hazelhatch side adding cars to the bridge. The amount of cars up at Ballyoulster every weeknight and Sat/Sun mornings would attest to that.
Closing off the Hatch Road, making cars turn at Supervalu would make more sense

Been saying this for nearly 20 years. and force a left turn only coming over the bridge into Celbridge, no right then by the Grotto (so that lane /Patricks park becomes a rat run). Force people to use the link road around the town instead of driving into it.

2ndcoming wrote: »

Was tried and it didn't work unfortunately. Mostly due to Grove / Simmonstown area residents having to take a detour to their houses.

Really? When was that proposed?

2ndcoming

daheff wrote: »

Why should they give up prime real estate/ trading area because you want a village square? Sure it would be nice to have it, but if you were to CPO it, there would be a huge bill to pay.

Oh I'm not saying they should have to or anything like it, just the current situation is a bit mental as anyone who has ever seen a forty foot lorry carrying a digger trying to turn into the narrowest lane in Ireland would agree.
Hard to imagine it's an ideal location from their point of view either so if people really wanted to make something happen maybe they could. Lots of modern industrial sites around the town now. More of a what if than anything...

2ndcoming

daheff wrote: »

Really? When was that proposed?

If I remember correctly it was actually implemented on a trial basis a year or two ago, or else was about to be and was protested down at the last minute. Don't live that side so not 100%, someone else will know here I'm sure.

Gaoth Laidir

2ndcoming wrote: »

This is a big one because it directly relates to the one main street business that a) has regular HGV traffic and b) has absolutely no place in the centre of a 'historic town'.

Also c) occupies prime real estate in the centre of town that could be opened up to become a village square type of place.

Which business are we talking about??

quadrifoglio verde

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Which business are we talking about??

Going to guess the one that provides machinery for hire. If not, it too has no place on the main Street and is responsible for numerous traffic jams

mloc123

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Going to guess the one that provides machinery for hire. If not, it too has no place on the main Street and is responsible for numerous traffic jams

Along with the removal of chunks of the wall on Creed :pac:

Davidth88

mloc123 wrote:

Along with the removal of chunks of the wall on Creed

A building that business also owns .... they wanted to knock it but it's listed I am convinced they are trying to knock it stone by stone ;-)

The banning of turning onto the hatch road makes sense to me.

Footbridge at slip hall .... turn donacomper into a communal space ....the earlier plans were a bit mad 8 floors and stuff.

There was a liffey valley park alliance at one time trying to turn the whole of the valley from chapelizod up to celbridge into a national park of sorts ...

Hazelhatch Greenway

Great discussion, and thanks for your responses.
Not going to comment on right-turn up Hatch Road, as this is one for Council to assess given the knockon impact for many locals.


Going back to my ideas :

1. Ban HGVs from Main Street & Bridge
- perhaps Main Street is not possible due to location of business, but surely they could take another route and avoid causing delays at the already crazy bridge junctions?
- could also introduce the ban on Canal bridge, to keep these vehicles away from Celbridge in the first place

2. Minibus to collect kids for GAA Club
- yes, the idea would be a minibus doing a loop trip and picking up (then dropping off) players for training & matches
- net effect = less parents driving across the bridge, etc
- anybody involved with GAA club who could investigate?


3. Minibus improved service to train station
- same as above, but need Irish Rail to organise


4. New bus route from "Celbridge North/West" (Tesco area) to city centre via Maynooth Road, Applegreen Road, M4.
- haven't seen any comments which show this is not a possibility
- 67A route? locals would quickly learn


...and a couple of other ideas:

5. Reduce number of Dublin Bus bus stops on Main St
- surely the stops which are located at the busiest point of the street could be removed?
- bus users would need to walk approx 100m further to the end of the street, or to the stop over the bridge


6. Remove taxi parking opposite/outside The Duck
- taxis are constantly parking on double-yellow or pulling U-turns
- taxis are also constantly parking in bus stop, which means the bus blocks the traffic, which in turn means no traffic can move anywhere at the crazy bridge junction


What do ya think?

Stealthirl

CCR wrote: »

The Facebook outrage is mental. People making objections without knowing the actual plan. Just basing it on what the read on Facebook posts.

Unfortunately people in favour of these plans usually don't make submissions.

Iv been very active on any post iv seen on Facebook about my opinions and annoying a few people like Frank O'Rourke and the owener of Halo.
I am truly surprised the amount of people who dont know/care about what is planed for the area they say they care so much about. Iv read every LAP for Leixlip,Celbridge,Maynooth and skimmed over anything related to Lucan in the last 20 years. I also have looked at county level plans to see how everything relates to the bigger picture.

Iv lived in Celbridge all my life and we moved from Dara Court to Abbey farm in 1990 in part to avoid the nightmare of traffic the main street was then and enjoyed a few years of no real hold-up.

Stealthirl

2ndcoming wrote: »

If I remember correctly it was actually implemented on a trial basis a year or two ago, or else was about to be and was protested down at the last minute. Don't live that side so not 100%, someone else will know here I'm sure.

Yup it was Frank O'Rourke who calmed the victory of getting it stopped :rolleyes: Residents of Simmonstown,Callenders Mill & Hazelhatch Park said it would increase the amount of traffic in there estates. Completely ignoring the fact that
1) It was obvious the road was always going to be part of the Town arterial network [just look at the Simmonstown/Callenders Mill sections which are in line with that type of planning]
2) There is already a lot of people using it that way that come in the Dublin road or from the Hatch anyway,My friend in Ardclough turns at the The Orchard up by Elm Hall and onto Lords Rd
3) The risk to children in Hazelhatch Park could be reduced by low walls topped with a fence like the green areas on the Simmonstown/Callenders Mill section have

Stealthirl

Every report iv seen even back as far as the 80s have said the number 1 solution is a bridge at the Slip.
In my opinion were now at a stage where we need a bridge there and one the other end of the town at Wolston's School with an orbital route that would carter for the expansion of the town. If you takeout a bridge at the slip it is even more important to look at the case for an orbital route from the roundabout at the Salesian's to the Clane Rd then onto the Newtown Rd via a road/bridge at the back of Abbey Farm,Celbridge Abbey,Ballymakealy ect onto the Newtown Rd that would then carry on towards the train station/Hatch along with a road back onto the Dublin Rd
If people were serious about solving the issue long term rather then a patch job that would last a few years at best.
The orbital route could be made wide enough for a road,segregated bike path and footpath.

Celbridge had a 2016 population of 21,857
Nass is 21,393
Newbridge 22,742
Leixlip and Maynooth just over 15,000 each

We are the 2nd largest in Kildare


Compare that to other large towns just outside Dublin
Carlow 24,272
Dundalk 31,149
Drogheda 30,393
Navan 31,689
Ashbourne 12,679
Bray 32,600
Arklow 14,080

Finlay there is also a Facebook page called Celbridge Traffic if anyone would care to join

scheister

Stealthirl wrote: »

Every report iv seen even back as far as the 80s have said the number 1 solution is a bridge at the Slip.
In my opinion were now at a stage where we need a bridge there and one the other end of the town at Wolston's School with an orbital route that would carter for the expansion of the town. If you takeout a bridge at the slip it is even more important to look at the case for an orbital route from the roundabout at the Salesian's to the Clane Rd then onto the Newtown Rd via a road/bridge at the back of Abbey Farm,Celbridge Abbey,Ballymakealy ect onto the Newtown Rd that would then carry on towards the train station/Hatch along with a road back onto the Dublin Rd
If people were serious about solving the issue long term rather then a patch job that would last a few years at best.
The orbital route could be made wide enough for a road,segregated bike path and footpath.

Celbridge had a 2016 population of 21,857
Nass is 21,393
Newbridge 22,742
Leixlip and Maynooth just over 15,000 each

We are the 2nd largest in Kildare


Compare that to other large towns just outside Dublin
Carlow 24,272
Dundalk 31,149
Drogheda 30,393
Navan 31,689
Ashbourne 12,679
Bray 32,600
Arklow 14,080

Finlay there is also a Facebook page called Celbridge Traffic if anyone would care to join

I believe the bridge at the slip was going to be built in the 90's but instead they built the interchange at salesians

Stealthirl

Stealthirl wrote: »

Iv been very active on any post iv seen on Facebook about my opinions and annoying a few people like Frank O'Rourke and the owener of Halo.
I am truly surprised the amount of people who dont know/care about what is planed for the area they say they care so much about. Iv read every LAP for Leixlip,Celbridge,Maynooth and skimmed over anything related to Lucan in the last 20 years. I also have looked at county level plans to see how everything relates to the bigger picture.

Iv lived in Celbridge all my life and we moved from Dara Court to Abbey farm in 1990 in part to avoid the nightmare of traffic the main street was then and enjoyed a few years of no real hold-up.

To be honest, you're a braver man than I! I'm always delighted to see your replies (presuming I'm thinking of the right person) but have yet to stick my own head about the parapet.

Stealthirl

Stealthirl wrote: »

Every report iv seen even back as far as the 80s have said the number 1 solution is a bridge at the Slip.
In my opinion were now at a stage where we need a bridge there and one the other end of the town at Wolston's School with an orbital route that would carter for the expansion of the town. If you takeout a bridge at the slip it is even more important to look at the case for an orbital route from the roundabout at the Salesian's to the Clane Rd then onto the Newtown Rd via a road/bridge at the back of Abbey Farm,Celbridge Abbey,Ballymakealy ect onto the Newtown Rd that would then carry on towards the train station/Hatch along with a road back onto the Dublin Rd
If people were serious about solving the issue long term rather then a patch job that would last a few years at best.
The orbital route could be made wide enough for a road,segregated bike path and footpath.

Celbridge had a 2016 population of 21,857
Nass is 21,393
Newbridge 22,742
Leixlip and Maynooth just over 15,000 each

We are the 2nd largest in Kildare


Compare that to other large towns just outside Dublin
Carlow 24,272
Dundalk 31,149
Drogheda 30,393
Navan 31,689
Ashbourne 12,679
Bray 32,600
Arklow 14,080

Finlay there is also a Facebook page called Celbridge Traffic if anyone would care to join

I see on the Celbridge Traffic page that there is some early momentum building for a public meeting. Sounds like a good plan. Fair play to the person who set it up - it has been a lightening rod

daheff

Stealthirl wrote: »

Yup it was Frank O'Rourke who calmed the victory of getting it stopped :rolleyes: Residents of Simmonstown,Callenders Mill & Hazelhatch Park said it would increase the amount of traffic in there estates. Completely ignoring the fact that
1) It was obvious the road was always going to be part of the Town arterial network [just look at the Simmonstown/Callenders Mill sections which are in line with that type of planning]
2) There is already a lot of people using it that way that come in the Dublin road or from the Hatch anyway,My friend in Ardclough turns at the The Orchard up by Elm Hall and onto Lords Rd
3) The risk to children in Hazelhatch Park could be reduced by low walls topped with a fence like the green areas on the Simmonstown/Callenders Mill section have

ah now...that comments not fair. While its 'obvious' the council wanted a link road through those estates, planning was not properly done for Simmonstown/ Calendars mill to keep the road wide enough and houses far enough back from the road. On top of that you have 2 creches (or creche designated areas -one in Calendars mill which will probably never be built as the space is wholly unsuitable) along that road.

Then you get the issue that exit off Hazelhatch park to the Newcastle road would need a traffic light to allow that volume of traffic to be able to properly merge onto the newcastle road. That traffic light would be literally yards away from an existing one beside the entrance to Primrose gate. There would also be plenty of tailbacks into Hazelhatch park from this just go there around the time of 8.45 when people are trying to get onto the Newcastle road to get kids to school.


Now go to the other end of that road, where Simmonstown meets Ardclough road. That portion of roadway (back to the bridge) is not suited to high volumes of traffic. Its too narrow....especially along by the grove/abbey hall.



While i have no objections (in principal) to a link road around Celbridge, it has to be done correctly and not shoe-horned into place where its not suitable.

Rain Ascending

daheff wrote: »

While i have no objections (in principal) to a link road around Celbridge, it has to be done correctly and not shoe-horned into place where its not suitable.

Out of curiosity, what would be your preferred route?

I ask because the one option that seems to generate the least opposition within Celbridge is that based on going through as much open countryside as possible. Route 5 in the river crossing feasibility report is close to this kind of thinking (see page 45 -- although even there some rerouting of the eastern end would be called for). Let's be cynical for a moment and assume that no strong lobby will emerge for the protection of the rural habitats disturbed. The main issue then is the fact that quite a lot of ring road would have to be built, with its associated CPO and construction costs.

The way that the council would approach this would be to zone the land on either side for further residential development and force the developer to pay the cost of the land purchase and road construction. Given that the eastern end would be close to Hazelhatch train station, the planners would look favorably on this location for residential development.

Bottom line: greenfield route = more housing

Is this the price Celbridge is willing to pay?

2ndcoming

Rain Ascending wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what would be your preferred route?

I ask because the one option that seems to generate the least opposition within Celbridge is that based on going through as much open countryside as possible. Route 5 in the river crossing feasibility report is close to this kind of thinking (see page 45 -- although even there some rerouting of the eastern end would be called for). Let's be cynical for a moment and assume that no strong lobby will emerge for the protection of the rural habitats disturbed. The main issue then is the fact that quite a lot of ring road would have to be built, with its associated CPO and construction costs.

The way that the council would approach this would be to zone the land on either side for further residential development and force the developer to pay the cost of the land purchase and road construction. Given that the eastern end would be close to Hazelhatch train station, the planners would look favorably on this location for residential development.

Bottom line: greenfield route = more housing

Is this the price Celbridge is willing to pay?

More housing isn't a price, it's an absolute necessity on a national and local level. There are thousands of people who have grown up in Celbridge who don't actually want to live in a) Australia, b) Canada, c) Enfield.

Given many of their parents / grandparents persistent habit of stockpiling existing property, there's not really any option but to build more houses for current / future generations.

Slight tangent but still relevant, I hope:
Does anyone know what the current plan is for the new(ish) secondary school? They are into their third year in a prefab so the space must be getting tighter.

Any chance of expanding where they are?
Or is there still talk of moving to the other side of the bridge near the GAA club?

Davidth88

I was at the open day at ccs ( Celbridge community school) it's a modular building so I reckon add on would be easy. Moving... the head said they have two sites across the river but both flood.

No planning for either site. My guess would be 6 years at least.

mloc123

Davidth88 wrote: »

I was at the open day at ccs ( Celbridge community school) it's a modular building so I reckon add on would be easy. Moving... the head said they have two sites across the river but both flood.

No planning for either site. My guess would be 6 years at least.

My guess is... it will never move

Rain Ascending

Davidth88 wrote: »

I was at the open day at ccs ( Celbridge community school) it's a modular building so I reckon add on would be easy. Moving... the head said they have two sites across the river but both flood.

No planning for either site. My guess would be 6 years at least.

Interesting. I assume that one site is the Hazelhatch site for which, if I remember correctly, planning was refused. Where is the second? The new LAP envisages that there will be a post-primary school within the Ballyoulster development. The design concept (page 64) suggested that it could go in at the back of Donaghcumper cemetery. My assumption had been that they were thinking of CCS when they put that in.

L1011

There is flood alleviation for the Hazelhatch side planned.