Celbridge Draft Area Plan - 3500+ new houses

daheff

L1011 wrote: »

There is flood alleviation for the Hazelhatch side planned.

its been "planned" for a while now.

When the local councils had to re-evaluate flood plains using 200 year highs (vs previous 100 year highs) Hazelhatch became a problem. There was a school planned & almost at build stage when the change came into play. That put a hold on the school build until flood alleviation works were scope, planned, and done.

Those plans are (to the best of my knowledge) still only at the discussion stages with the planners. Lots of expensive work to be done allegedly

daheff

Rain Ascending wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what would be your preferred route?

My preference would be for Option 4 or 5...but not to have it finish going through Hazelhatch Park/Calendars mill. Where they plan to join to Calendars Mill is just not suitablehttps://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3314491,-6.5376769,3a,75y,243.43h,77.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1snidjeFjMxpopC3Wnr_V0Jw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DnidjeFjMxpopC3Wnr_V0Jw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D145.69875%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

this road should go past these estates and head directly out to the Dublin road...not as a join to the Hazelhatch road and then push all the traffic onto (I think its now called the Shackleton road?) past Supervalue.

Deleted User wrote: »

Slight tangent but still relevant, I hope:
Does anyone know what the current plan is for the new(ish) secondary school? They are into their third year in a prefab so the space must be getting tighter.

Any chance of expanding where they are?
Or is there still talk of moving to the other side of the bridge near the GAA club?

Davidth88 wrote: »

I was at the open day at ccs ( Celbridge community school) it's a modular building so I reckon add on would be easy. Moving... the head said they have two sites across the river but both flood.

No planning for either site. My guess would be 6 years at least.

This Community secondary school was part of the campus plan for the Hazelhatch road -Co-located Primary & Secondary schools.

Planning was in place until flooding plan changes stopped the builds. As far as I know, they were at contract tender when it had to stop.

Hazelhatch Greenway

Hazelhatch Greenway wrote: »

Great discussion, and thanks for your responses.
Not going to comment on right-turn up Hatch Road, as this is one for Council to assess given the knockon impact for many locals.


Going back to my ideas :

1. Ban HGVs from Main Street & Bridge
- perhaps Main Street is not possible due to location of business, but surely they could take another route and avoid causing delays at the already crazy bridge junctions?
- could also introduce the ban on Canal bridge, to keep these vehicles away from Celbridge in the first place

2. Minibus to collect kids for GAA Club
- yes, the idea would be a minibus doing a loop trip and picking up (then dropping off) players for training & matches
- net effect = less parents driving across the bridge, etc
- anybody involved with GAA club who could investigate?


3. Minibus improved service to train station
- same as above, but need Irish Rail to organise


4. New bus route from "Celbridge North/West" (Tesco area) to city centre via Maynooth Road, Applegreen Road, M4.
- haven't seen any comments which show this is not a possibility
- 67A route? locals would quickly learn


...and a couple of other ideas:

5. Reduce number of Dublin Bus bus stops on Main St
- surely the stops which are located at the busiest point of the street could be removed?
- bus users would need to walk approx 100m further to the end of the street, or to the stop over the bridge


6. Remove taxi parking opposite/outside The Duck
- taxis are constantly parking on double-yellow or pulling U-turns
- taxis are also constantly parking in bus stop, which means the bus blocks the traffic, which in turn means no traffic can move anywhere at the crazy bridge junction


What do ya think?

School location will be decided by Dept Education, based on lands zoned. Public has limited influence at this stage.

What we can influence is the traffic situation, which is likely to get worse before end of the year.
A public meeting is a good idea.
Council & Politicians need to hear the public, and their ideas.

Rain Ascending

daheff wrote: »

My preference would be for Option 4 or 5...but not to have it finish going through Hazelhatch Park/Calendars mill. Where they plan to join to Calendars Mill is just not suitablehttps://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3314491,-6.5376769,3a,75y,243.43h,77.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1snidjeFjMxpopC3Wnr_V0Jw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DnidjeFjMxpopC3Wnr_V0Jw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D145.69875%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

this road should go past these estates and head directly out to the Dublin road...not as a join to the Hazelhatch road and then push all the traffic onto (I think its now called the Shackleton road?) past Supervalue.

Option 4 (running beside the Texaco garage) is opposed by the residents of Abbey Farm. Which just leaves Option 5 running from NKETS and then (as per your suggestion) redirected as a new road all the way to the Dublin Road. That would result in a couple of thousand extra houses as the surrounding lands would be gradually converted into new housing estates.

Personally, I'd prefer to strategically work out where the housing should go and then see what that would support by way of extra distributor roads for the second bridge. That may result in the bridge having some feeder/distributor roads in areas that will annoy some existing residents.

Having said all that, I do agree with you that going through Callender's Mill at the point you highlighted won't work. Too many houses with driveways direct onto the road. The alternative, a new parallel distributor road through the green area looks difficult without moving the electricity pylon.

JDigweed

Just read a post on the Irish Daily Mirror F/Book page from Dr Walsh on the development.
"The town will be destroyed as if an Atomic Bomb fell on it". The town cannot go on in its present design...people are already avoiding the village with the traffic and parking. This would be an opportunity to enhance the main street

vektarman

JDigweed wrote: »

Just read a post on the Irish Daily Mirror F/Book page from Dr Walsh on the development.
"The town will be destroyed as if an Atomic Bomb fell on it". The town cannot go on in its present design...people are already avoiding the village with the traffic and parking. This would be an opportunity to enhance the main street

Here's that Daily Mirror link: http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/doctors-bid-save-celbridge-co-11383071

mloc123

As I mentioned before... Dr Walsh has no vested interest in restricting the number of retail units in Celbridge/main street

vektarman

'Acquisition for the Community school site at Donaghcomper is currently underway'

Is this just a news filler or is this going ahead?

https://www.kildarenow.com/news/permanent-site-secured-celbridge-community-school/191125

Fine Gael North Kildare TD Bernard Durkan has said that the acquisition of the site in Donaghcumper is "currently underway" and that it may be several months before the school seeks to move from its temporary accommodation.

Wowsa! That would be a pleasant surprise. Spoke to a few people who were at the open day for the school - and to a current student - and they were talking about several years before anything happened.

On closer reading, the acquisition is 'underway' (sic) doesn't sound like it's a done deal. And 'seeking to move' is also a long way from 'moving'.

If they are talking about a new site, they will have to build - which won't happen overnight. Also, seems likely to get caught up in all the other planning shenanigans discussed in this thread. Maybe best not hold our breath but to hope for the best...

scheister

Deleted User wrote: »

On closer reading, the acquisition is 'underway' (sic) doesn't sound like it's a done deal. And 'seeking to move' is also a long way from 'moving'.

If they are talking about a new site, they will have to build - which won't happen overnight. Also, seems likely to get caught up in all the other planning shenanigans discussed in this thread. Maybe best not hold our breath but to hope for the best...

from what i am reading on FB the site they are looking at is opposite freedom travel new office.
According to Frank O'Rourke they still want the original site at hazelhatch and are looking at fixing the flooding issues. This new site is the back up plan

daheff

scheister wrote: »

from what i am reading on FB the site they are looking at is opposite freedom travel new office.
According to Frank O'Rourke they still want the original site at hazelhatch and are looking at fixing the flooding issues. This new site is the back up plan

thats the site beside Primrose Gate /Graveyard?

Not exactly a million miles away from the planned Hazelhatch site so.

Stealthirl

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, you're a braver man than I! I'm always delighted to see your replies (presuming I'm thinking of the right person) but have yet to stick my own head about the parapet.

Im Damien Murray if that's who you were thinking about ? Iv no interest is hiding my identity

Rain Ascending wrote: »

Option 4 (running beside the Texaco garage) is opposed by the residents of Abbey Farm. Which just leaves Option 5 running from NKETS and then (as per your suggestion) redirected as a new road all the way to the Dublin Road.

The options of a bridge at the Abbey carpark and Texaco are unsuitable for future growth. The option of a road at Woltsons across to Newtown Rd is a far better solution that would also need the improvement of the road from the existing bridge along the Newtown Rd something that is desperately needed.
One big issue with it is that on the Newtown side there is no clear location for a junction without removing a home but there was talk of low density homes going in at the bend in the river on the Newtown side. Notseen anything recently about this

daheff wrote: »

thats the site beside Primrose Gate /Graveyard?

Not exactly a million miles away from the planned Hazelhatch site so.

The LAP did indicate a school behind the graveyard along with the estate that would go down to the back of Ballyoulster. [there was talk in the late 80s/early 90s that there would be a road to the back of Ballyoulster that's why a few houses built in gardens there face out that way]

daheff

Stealthirl wrote: »

The LAP did indicate a school behind the graveyard along with the estate that would go down to the back of Ballyoulster. [there was talk in the late 80s/early 90s that there would be a road to the back of Ballyoulster that's why a few houses built in gardens there face out that way]

Isnt that land caught up with the same flooding issues as the land originally looked at off the hazelhatch road? Surely if they have to do flood alleviation works it makes sense to do it in one area for both primary & secondary schools??

Rain Ascending

daheff wrote: »

Isnt that land caught up with the same flooding issues as the land originally looked at off the hazelhatch road?

Not really. That plot of land at the back of Donacumper Cemetery is bounded on two sides by streams/surface drains. If you look at the local flood map on pg 77 of the Interim Final LAP, you'll see that while the two streams are prone to be swollen, they don't flood the adjoining land. I'd guess that so long as the site design doesn't do anything silly with surface run-off then there is no issue, even without any additional works.

Further south, beyond Primrose Gate, that's where the trouble starts.

ZV Yoda

CAA posted on their FB page today to say "It is with a heavy heart that we can confirm that Damien English has issued his Ministerial Ruling and it's bad news for Donaghcumper and Celbridge. His directive zones Donaghcumper as 'Town Centre' and opens it up for brutal development"

https://www.facebook.com/celbridgeactionalliance/?hc_ref=ARQml6vmAYeSV6sa812X2e9cMN4gbwKZ5pcy8iFvLGFv4hBzbzgj5NvP3giuAhxgLes&fref=nf

I couldn't find any official confirmation online

mloc123

ZV Yoda wrote: »

CAA posted on their FB page today to say "It is with a heavy heart that we can confirm that Damien English has issued his Ministerial Ruling and it's bad news for Donaghcumper and Celbridge. His directive zones Donaghcumper as 'Town Centre' and opens it up for brutal development"

https://www.facebook.com/celbridgeactionalliance/?hc_ref=ARQml6vmAYeSV6sa812X2e9cMN4gbwKZ5pcy8iFvLGFv4hBzbzgj5NvP3giuAhxgLes&fref=nf

I couldn't find any official confirmation online

Must be why Castletown cut the green areas... prepping for the foundations to go in on the front lawns, if you were to believe what CAA are saying

View - Just slightly out of shot is Supervalu which has already ruined the view.

Saint John paul

There is a bit on it in the leinster leader today.

Rain Ascending

Kildare County Council have posted up the confirmed Ministerial Direction regarding Crodaun and Donaghcumper. See this link. The document is a scanned one, so if you want a clear view of the map with the zoning changes, look to page six of the draft version.

Just last Wednesday, after the above Ministerial Direction, Catherine Murphy and Damien English had an interesting exchange on the topic in the Dáil. Both sides of the debate are reasonably well represented in their respective statements and for those who've followed this story, it is a fascinating 13 minutes.

CCR

Saw that video and found it interesting that Catherine Murphy said town core is gone and not coming back. Clearly the view of some who doesn't live here and just visits Castletown occasionally.

Moved here 3 years ago and have wondered why decent shops cafes and restaurants don't open on main street. Thought the opening of Canteen would lead to more.
Last 2 vacant units have opened as computer repair shops.

Rain Ascending

Rain Ascending wrote: »

Kildare County Council have posted up the confirmed Ministerial Direction regarding Crodaun and Donaghcumper. See this link. The document is a scanned one, so if you want a clear view of the map with the zoning changes, look to page six of the draft version.

Just last Wednesday, after the above Ministerial Direction, Catherine Murphy and Damien English had an interesting exchange on the topic in the Dáil. Both sides of the debate are reasonably well represented in their respective statements and for those who've followed this story, it is a fascinating 13 minutes.

Very useful video - thanks for posting. Certainly show Murphy is engaged (although a bit negative about the future of the town) but also shows minister is none of the things campaigners have accused him or his department of. On Facebook people accuse them of everything from malice to negligence, fascism and lack of local knowledge.

In terms of housing, all seem agreed that this is not the main issue here. Houses are coming but not many on that particular site. It's a small site but could become a more active town centre.

Maybe they need to talk/think a bit more positively about the kind of amenities that could come out of this. Could we get a cinema (Naas has one), a theatre (Blanch and Tallaght), a pool (hardly anything in the area except for Raphael's), a critical mass of good restaurants (cf Maynooth)...

The refurbed Castletown Inn and, soon, Village Inn, plus others mean we are good for pubs. What else would we like? Maybe the Council could ask us about that in an effort to make people think constructively.

mloc123

CCR wrote: »

Saw that video and found it interesting that Catherine Murphy said town core is gone and not coming back. Clearly the view of some who doesn't live here and just visits Castletown occasionally.

Moved here 3 years ago and have wondered why decent shops cafes and restaurants don't open on main street. Thought the opening of Canteen would lead to more.
Last 2 vacant units have opened as computer repair shops.

I assume that most of the units on mainstreet are not suitable for restaurants, poor access, not enough room for kitchens etc..

Rain Ascending

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe they need to talk/think a bit more positively about the kind of amenities that could come out of this. Could we get a cinema (Naas has one), a theatre (Blanch and Tallaght), a pool (hardly anything in the area except for Raphael's), a critical mass of good restaurants (cf Maynooth)...

The refurbed Castletown Inn and, soon, Village Inn, plus others mean we are good for pubs. What else would we like? Maybe the Council could ask us about that in an effort to make people think constructively.

I like your thinking here, but there are a couple of challenges.

During the consultation process there were a number of submissions suggesting attaching conditions to the two town extension zonings for, e.g. retaining a swimming pool in St. Raphael's or for a theatre. The County Manager rejected these, if I recall correctly, on the grounds that such conditions could compromise the viability of the development zones and/or were inappropriate for a local area plan.

The next move is that of the developer. They will have to submit a planning application. It will go straight to An Bord Pleanala (assuming there is more than 100 dwellings in the proposal). The developer will be very aware of the level of local opposition and may be willing to explore ideas such as yours to gain some level of support in the town.

But I'm not sure where or how to engage. I assume that there will be some form of dialog between the developer and the Council planning officials along the way -- at the very least they'll want to establish what the intent is behind the local area plan provisions before submitting to ABP. However, I suspect that the planning officials are unlikely to try community outreach themselves -- they are not going to put themselves in that line of fire. Some of the local councillors might be a better bet.

What would make a difference would be a concrete proposal. A developer can build facilities, but who would run them? Build an answer to that question and there could be potential here.

Rain Ascending

BTW, for reference, here's a quick summary of what I understand will be in the Local Area Plan for Donaghcumper. You need to go to the December 2016 draft to see the detail. Some selected quotes:

"A vibrant mixed use district with a mix of day and night‐time uses (e.g. retail, office, residential, community and amenity uses)... Development on this site should be urban in character, particularly along the pedestrian route that links the Main Street to the Dublin Road... Building heights should range from two to three storeys generally. The lands between this ridge [running along the northern-western boundary of the new town centre expansion] and the River Liffey should be developed as public parkland and should be landscaped to enhance the amenity value of the river."

Only a rough estimate is given for the number of dwellings, namely 150. This should be placed in the context of the overall zoning of in excess of 3000 additional dwellings for Celbridge.

Two prerequisites need to be in place before the occupation of any dwellings in the new town centre expansion:

1. A pedestrian/cycle link between Main St. and Dublin Road, including a new pedestrian/cycle bridge across the Liffey.
2. The new publicly accessible park to the northwest of the new town centre expansion, running along the Liffey.

See here for an indicative design concept given in the local plan. This might or might not come to pass, but it is useful in that it gives a sense of the scale of the development and the delineation between the (zoned) parkland and the urban development.

mloc123

Rain Ascending wrote: »

BTW, for reference, here's a quick summary of what I understand will be in the Local Area Plan for Donaghcumper. You need to go to the December 2016 draft to see the detail. Some selected quotes:

Only a rough estimate is given for the number of dwellings, namely 150. This should be placed in the context of the overall zoning of in excess of 3000 additional dwellings for Celbridge.

Two prerequisites need to be in place before the occupation of any dwellings in the new town centre expansion:

1. A pedestrian/cycle link between Main St. and Dublin Road, including a new pedestrian/cycle bridge across the Liffey.
2. The new publicly accessible park to the northwest of the new town centre expansion, running along the Liffey.

See here for an indicative design concept given in the local plan. This might or might not come to pass, but it is useful in that it gives a sense of the scale of the development and the delineation between the (zoned) parkland and the urban development.

I don't get the hatred for this plan. We get a new green area the other side of the river, we get a badly needed pedestrian bridge on main st. The development does not extend any further out the Dublin road than Supervalu does now (which is already very visible from Castletown)

Rain Ascending

Rain Ascending wrote: »

I like your thinking here, but there are a couple of challenges.

During the consultation process there were a number of submissions suggesting attaching conditions to the two town extension zonings for, e.g. retaining a swimming pool in St. Raphael's or for a theatre. The County Manager rejected these, if I recall correctly, on the grounds that such conditions could compromise the viability of the development zones and/or were inappropriate for a local area plan.

The next move is that of the developer. They will have to submit a planning application. It will go straight to An Bord Pleanala (assuming there is more than 100 dwellings in the proposal). The developer will be very aware of the level of local opposition and may be willing to explore ideas such as yours to gain some level of support in the town.

But I'm not sure where or how to engage. I assume that there will be some form of dialog between the developer and the Council planning officials along the way -- at the very least they'll want to establish what the intent is behind the local area plan provisions before submitting to ABP. However, I suspect that the planning officials are unlikely to try community outreach themselves -- they are not going to put themselves in that line of fire. Some of the local councillors might be a better bet.

What would make a difference would be a concrete proposal. A developer can build facilities, but who would run them? Build an answer to that question and there could be potential here.

They were probably right not to add conditions at this point. Planning stage seems like the best time to do this.

Good point about the Council's reluctance to engage people again - it's a recipe for leaving some people dissatisfied.

Is there already a developer lined up or is it a matter of developers bidding for it?

Joe Public

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there already a developer lined up or is it a matter of developers bidding for it?

Durkan builders/developers still own the land, the minister has them lined up.

ZV Yoda

Joe Public wrote: »

Durkan builders/developers still own the land, the minister has them lined up.

I thought KCC owned the land?

The Mulk

On another note, there's 30 council houses approved for the Ardclough Road. Does anyone know where these houses are going or will they be positioned in the existing estates allowed in the LAP?

Joe Public

ZV Yoda wrote: »

I thought KCC owned the land?

At they time they purchased the 80 acres, or so, they gave 31 acres that bordered the Liffey to KCC to be used for amenity purposes.
They would have to leave a 50m gap between development work and the Liffey anyway.