Celbridge Draft Area Plan - 3500+ new houses

the butcher

2ndcoming wrote: »

Not the best at drawing these but that's the ideal I reckon. One way loop with various entry / exit points.

Would also allow for substantial widening of the main street paving.

This would make perfect sense if they did it right and left a green walkway along the river it could be really nice. Pedestrianized side with restaurants/coffee shops facing the river and trees etc.

Interesting option - nice to see some ideas. The current situation cannot continue.

In the proposed system, if you want to go to the Dublin from the direction of St Raphael's, you'd need to go down the Main Street which is slow because it's narrow and has parking etc. Could be a new bottleneck at Castletown gates?

Better for the Celbridge Road though.

2ndcoming

Deleted User wrote: »

Interesting option - nice to see some ideas. The current situation cannot continue.

In the proposed system, if you want to go to the Dublin from the direction of St Raphael's, you'd need to go down the Main Street which is slow because it's narrow and has parking etc. Could be a new bottleneck at Castletown gates?

Better for the Celbridge Road though.

Ideally they'd put that earlier bridge in around Celbridge Abbey that would relieve that. It's fantasy stuff really, nothing's been done in the previous 30 years so it's prob unlikely anything will be now either.

A bit of fantasy/imagination will definitely required. It was a small town 30 years ago!

Hazelhatch Greenway

Yes, but a ring road is the real solution here in order to take unnecessary traffic away from an already crowded town centre.

Ideally this would incorporate the 2nd bridge, and therefore the site behind the Schools and Athletic Club seems more suitable.

It's getting close to one year since the public meetings regarding the LAP, with no progress on any bridge or infrastructure.

I gather the Councillors are working away on this, and I have seen posts from Celbridge Community Council on Facebook.

How can we, the public, make this happen?

The cycle is:
- Outrage by a resident on Facebook when they have a bad traffic day
- Someone tags Frank O'Rourke, summoning him to the discussion
- Frank arrives and says he has been on the Council for an update and lists what has happened to date and plans for progress
- Someone says 'Thanks Frank!', someone else says something anti-FF or generally anti-politicians
- Every gets on with their day..until next time
(Repeat)

Joe Public

We need an outer ring road to take traffic away from the central area, every time there's a problem on the M4/N4 we get hit with loads of extra traffic trying alternate routes which seems to be happening 2 or 3 times a week and getting worse.

Joe Public

Joe Public wrote: »

We need an outer ring road to take traffic away from the central area, every time there's a problem on the M4/N4 we get hit with loads of extra traffic trying alternate routes which seems to be happening 2 or 3 times a week and getting worse.

What would be the route of the ring road and what are the obstacles to making it happen?

I'm relatively new to the problem so apologies for asking a fundamental question. Seems like every solution is a minefield of residents' objections and planning hurdles.

Riskymove

Deleted User wrote: »

What would be the route of the ring road and what are the obstacles to making it happen?

I'm relatively new to the problem so apologies for asking a fundamental question. Seems like every solution is a minefield of residents' objections and planning hurdles.

I think the only solution that would not involve resident objections is a seperated (i.e. not going through any existing housing) ring road linking dublin road to ardclough road and a bridge across to Clane Road

it would be a large, expensive option though

but as all othe roptions seem to have too many objectors I can't see any other approach working

Coming to the Clane Road through the back of the Athletics Club, close to the schools?

Riskymove

Deleted User wrote: »

Coming to the Clane Road through the back of the Athletics Club, close to the schools?

thats probably the optimum - you could link dublin road to hazelhatch and then over to Clane road

the other approac is to have the road between simmonstown and Temple manor and cross at Celbridge abbey to the Clane road there but I think if a ring road is to be doien the best solution should just be gotten on with

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

The cycle is:
- Outrage by a resident on Facebook when they have a bad traffic day
- Someone tags Frank O'Rourke, summoning him to the discussion
- Frank arrives and says he has been on the Council for an update and lists what has happened to date and plans for progress
- Someone says 'Thanks Frank!',

And this is how he, somehow, got elected. That and photos in the Champion beside stuff he had nothing to do with.

Rain Ascending

Riskymove wrote: »

I think the only solution that would not involve resident objections is a seperated (i.e. not going through any existing housing) ring road linking dublin road to ardclough road and a bridge across to Clane Road

it would be a large, expensive option though

but as all othe roptions seem to have too many objectors I can't see any other approach working

Agreed that it would be an expensive option.

However two of three options for crossing over to the Clane Road would also attract objections. Only the one that leads to a new road parallel to the Clane Road, connecting with the road to St Wolstan's and the Educate Together is likely to avoid many objections and serious political backlash. Again, we are looking at probably the most expensive option west of the river ...

... unless the Council sanctions new housing estates alongside these two new roads leading to the bridge. Then they can force developers to pay for the two feeder roads.

Which leads to the question: Would the people of Celbridge accept an extra thousand houses to get the bridge built on green-field land? Or would they prefer a bridge that reuses existing road infrastructure?

Answers on the back of a postcard, please, to Kildare County Council Planning Office...

Joe Public

Deleted User wrote: »

The cycle is:
- Outrage by a resident on Facebook when they have a bad traffic day
- Someone tags Frank O'Rourke, summoning him to the discussion
- Frank arrives and says he has been on the Council for an update and lists what has happened to date and plans for progress
- Someone says 'Thanks Frank!', someone else says something anti-FF or generally anti-politicians
- Every gets on with their day..until next time
(Repeat)

Whatever about "The Cycle" he seems to the only person that can get things done around the area and doesn't have much competition.

Hi Frank :)

Ah to be fair, he does way more than anyone else. I actually feel sorry for him - expected to solve every cat-up-a-tree problem in town. He's a TD not a county councillor.

Joe Public

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah to be fair, he does way more than anyone else. I actually feel sorry for him - expected to solve every cat-up-a-tree problem in town. He's a TD not a county councillor.

The old saying holds when thinking of Frank "if you want something done ask a busy person"

Need more people like him to give his Duracells an occasional chance to recharge!

scheister

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah to be fair, he does way more than anyone else. I actually feel sorry for him - expected to solve every cat-up-a-tree problem in town. He's a TD not a county councillor.

This is as much franks issue as anything. If he gets the cat down from the tree this week people will expect him to do it again next week.

He should be working on the larger more national issues within North Kildare. With regards to the little stuff if it a cllrs job pass it onto Michael Coleman Paul Ward and the other elected FF cllrs

Joe Public

scheister wrote: »

This is as much franks issue as anything. If he gets the cat down from the tree this week people will expect him to do it again next week.

He should be working on the larger more national issues within North Kildare. With regards to the little stuff if it a cllrs job pass it onto Michael Coleman Paul Ward and the other elected FF cllrs

I hope the mod. doesn't crack down on this but here goes anyway.

I don't have much interest in FF but in Frank's defense he also has a good record on the national issues. Check his FB videos here https://www.facebook.com/pg/frankorourkeff/videos/?ref=page_internal


Back to the subject on the Celbridge Plan.
Re. an outer ring road I'd envisage a road from the Maynooth Rd. roundabout to somewhere near St. Wolstan's school on the Clane Rd. then over the Liffey via a new bridge to the Ardclough Rd., then from there to the Hatch Rd. to link up with the Shinkeen Rd. The plan breaks down after that, if not before, as I can't see where another Liffey bridge can be located on downstream side that can keep traffic away from the village. The M50 was supposed to be a circle but that never happened either.

Kfagan10

2015 Bridge Feasibility Study provided 5 possible options and even recommend a preferred choice.

Can't link url's but easy to google. Why the council have gone back to the drawing board I don't know.

Rain Ascending

Kfagan10 wrote: »

2015 Bridge Feasibility Study provided 5 possible options and even recommend a preferred choice.

Can't link url's but easy to google. Why the council have gone back to the drawing board I don't know.

Here's a link to the report.

It's comprehensive, but not the easiest of documents to navigate. Here are a few pointers, with all page numbers being the pdf file page numbers, not the document pagination:

• Pages 44-50 for a description of the route options considered
• Pages 117-127 for the summary of the evaluations and conclusions
• Pages 142-150 for detailed maps of the route and bridge upgrade options

Rain Ascending

And now my take on the various bridge options, along with the likely local reaction to each:

Option 1: "Upgrade" the existing bridge with linked signals, a boardwalk pedestrian crossing and restricted turnings.

It is recommended as a short-term quick fix before a proper new bridge is installed elsewhere. It looks reasonable to me, but local opposition to lights (due to a previous bad experience) and restrictions on turnings would be ferocious.


Option 2: Put a second bridge directly beside the existing bridge, with signalized roundabouts at either end, knocking down the first house on the south side of English Row.

Not my preferred option - it drags all the traffic through to the centre of town and the roundabout on the junction on the southwest side looks tight, limiting how much traffic can get through.


Options 3A and 3B: New bridge at the Slip Hall and through the Donacumper estate to the Dublin Road.

While I'm supportive the Donaghcumper town centre expansion proposed in the Local Area Plan, this feels like a step too far for me, leading to heavy traffic flows directly pass the historic entrance to Castletown Estate, effectively putting a barrier between it and Main Street. The Donaghcumper town centre development, assuming it gets the go-ahead in its current form, would likely kill this option off. Local opposition would also be fierce.


Option 4: From Texaco on the Clane Road to the back of Templemills and hence to Callender's Mill.

One of my preferred options, but there are issues with bringing a regional link road through Callender's Mill -- some modification is needed at that end. I can count at least three residential estates that are likely to object big time.


Option 5: From St Wolstan's Community School on the road to Clane, cutting across country to the cross the river and the Ardclough Road/Newtown Road, before joining up again with Callender's Mill.

Probably the least objectionable option as far as locals are concerned. I'm not enthusiastic since the CPO costs would force the Council to seek more residential development along the length of it to fund its construction. Also the relatively long distance to/from the R403 heading out to Clane may result in less traffic being diverted from the town centre than expected.


Option 6: Through the Abbey car park to the Ardclough/Newtown Road, funneling traffic to the link road through Simmonstown Manor/Hazelhatch Park.

This is an interesting one in that it would cut through the end of the Abbey grounds, which have very limited access for the public at the moment. It would need a sympathetic design not to do major damage there, but it could open up some amenity parkland. As pointed out here earlier in this thread, it would remove one of the more usable carparks close to the town centre. And the other side of the river, residents of Simmonstown Manor and Hazelhatch Park will fight it tooth and nail.


Given a vote, I'd go with Option 4.

Stealthirl

Hazelhatch Greenway wrote: »

Yes, but a ring road is the real solution here in order to take unnecessary traffic away from an already crowded town centre.

Joe Public wrote: »

We need an outer ring road to take traffic away from the central area, every time there's a problem on the M4/N4 we get hit with loads of extra traffic trying alternate routes which seems to be happening 2 or 3 times a week and getting worse.

Deleted User wrote: »

What would be the route of the ring road and what are the obstacles to making it happen?

Just sharing my post from last year

Stealthirl wrote: »

Put these 2 maps/pictures together to better illustrate the proposed road network.
Blue is the slip road option
Orange is the abbey carpark option
Red is the Esso/Topaz option
Yellow is St. Wolstan's option

Other roads are marked in purple





I said it before the the best option looking into the future would be a combination of the slip option and St. Wolstan's along with the badly needed upgrade to the Newtown road.

The existing bridge could be closed to traffic and become pedestrian/cycle way thus allowing preservation and removing a risky area/traffic hot spot.
Traffic could then flow around the Main St and only the traffic the needs to transit via the main street would be present if that makes sense.

An added bennifit would be the 67 bus could run up to Templemills across to St. Wolstan's back via the Main St or Oldtown Rd and onto the Maynooth Rd,a lot more estates would then be near to a bus stop and may remove congestion at the carry out bus stop.

Traffic using the Mynooth Rd would cross at the slip to get onto the Dublin Rd a filter lain for Castle town and the main street could be used or a mini roundabout

I dont see the abbey carpark or Esso/Topaz option's helping much as it just moves the congestion around and dosenot fix the issue of flow at the bridge.

There was a plan in the last assessment that i believe would have helped but Frank O'Rourke and NIMBY [Not In My Back Yard] politics stopped that :rolleyes:

Also if/when the road goes in from Applegreen/Salesian's a lot more traffic will use this to transit from the M4 to hatch road via Wolstan's. This is what adds to the local traffic and causes delays now.

There is also now the addition of the road from Weston to Adamstown that will cause more holdups at the M4 junction.
I'll say it again we need a solution that will work long term not one that works for 5-10-15 years

Rain Ascending

Stealthirl wrote: »

I'll say it again we need a solution that will work long term not one that works for 5-10-15 years

Agreed. Which means as we consider Celbridge's traffic congestion, we also need to look at the geographic spread of new housing, the challenge of revitalizing the town core, and tourism strategy at the same time.

Your magenta set of distributor/ring-roads would be very much in line with the council's thinking. However the it's clear that to fund any of this, they generally are allowing significant development alongside the bits are likely to proceed in the next few years, namely on the south/east side of the river. For the north/west side of the river, there is unlikely to be much progress until adjoining land is zoned for residential purposes. The greater the greenfield road build, the greater the additional development.

I'm uncomfortable with that, given the population growth that implies.

I think I've commented before that I like your thinking around pedestrianization -- we need more proposals in that direction to make the town centre a more interesting, user friendly centre. You could extend your proposal to part of Main Street up to St. Patrick's Park and down English Row, say to the Mill.

I don't buy your idea about a crossing near the Slip at the top of Main Street. As it stands, we have a challenge in getting tourists at Castletown House down to the village. A bridge up near the top of Main Street near the main entrance to the estate would exacerbate that and reduce the relationship between the Main Street and Castletown. (Of course, that's all before we even consider the difficulty in getting any significant support from local organizations or politicians for such a proposal...)

Stealthirl wrote: »

I dont see the abbey carpark or Esso/Topaz option's helping much as it just moves the congestion around and dosenot fix the issue of flow at the bridge.

I agree that either of these two locations for a new bridge won't completely alleviate congestion at the current bridge. Similarly for the other bridge option further south. Instead, I'd propose making Main Street and the current bridge one-way, from Castletown to down over the bridge and out Dublin road. Inbound traffic along the Dublin road would be forced left at the current bridge out the Newtown/Ardclough Road to the wherever the new bridge is. Making Main Street one-way, opens up opportunities to redesign the street-scape to make it more attractive and pedestrian friendly. As yes, again this would generate local opposition...

Valiant chrysler

A ring road is needed first around the town.
The sallins development plan have a ring road planned and there traffic is chronic.

Anyway come on the minister don't be bullied like the way I have been by friends of this developer example house alarms going off near or in Old town.

daheff

I dont think any of the bridge solutions that pushes traffic through Simmonstown/Calendars mill is really a realistic one.

Really they should push the ring road more and try to bring it around the town, not through estates, adjacent to schools/creches. Thats only asking for trouble.

Do it once and do it right.

Valiant chrysler

Let's see what the traffic will be like when the new housing estate where the old telemacaniq factory was is finished.

daheff

Valiant chrysler wrote: »

Let's see what the traffic will be like when the new housing estate where the old telemacaniq factory was is finished.

It's bad enough now without adding more traffic

mloc123

Anyone know why Aldi is closed off yesterday and today? (Slightly off topic but this is the best general thread for the area)

The Mulk

mloc123 wrote: »

Anyone know why Aldi is closed off yesterday and today? (Slightly off topic but this is the best general thread for the area)

A store revamp as far as I know. Not sure when its back open.