Child refugees -majority to be males aged 17???

oscarBravo

Old Bill wrote: »

Its common sense...

That sounds like shorthand for "I don't need facts, I have an opinion!"

Irish people never sought "asylum" in the likes of Pakistan or Nigeria.

If an Irish person sought "asylum" in one of those countries we would be laughed out the door.

You're horrid fond of the danger quotes. I suppose you'd split your sides laughing at the idea of, oh I dunno, an Australian seeking asylum in Ecuador?

newacc2015 wrote: »

So how did a 16 year old get all the way from Turkey to France?

That was supposed to be an answer to my question?

Remove the incentive to move to Europe and the people will stop coming

Sure, and if the Irish navy had just strafed the feckers in their boats instead of rescuing them, that might have discouraged them too.

I really can't get my head around how some people think "if we refuse to acknowledge that they're human, they might just stay in the miserable shíthole countries where they belong" is an acceptable view to express.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

I get that some people believe that how deserving of human compassion a person is is a direct function of where they had the manners to be born, but not everyone feels that way.

Every civilised country has signed up to agreements that set out how refugees (the word doesn't need danger quotes - yes, I get that you're using them as a way of expressing your view that they're not genuine refugees without having to adduce any evidence for that belief) should be treated. If you believe that Ireland should renege on those agreements on the basis that Irish people are inherently more deserving, I guess you'll have to elect a government that agrees with you.

That's not how public policy works. If everyone got to opt out of a percentage of their taxes on the basis of government expenditure they disagreed with, the country would be in quite the state.

Would you be willing to accept figures from Frontex?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/six-out-of-10-migrants-to-europe-come-for-economic-reasons-and-are-not-refugees-eu-vice-president-a6836306.html

Dutch politician Frans Timmermans said the majority of migrants to Europe are from North African countries such as Morocco or Tunisia, where there is no conflict. “More than half of the people now coming to Europe come from countries where you can assume they have no reason whatsoever to ask for refugee status... more than half, 60 per cent,” he told Dutch broadcaster NOS.


His said his statement came after viewing new figures from EU border agency Frontex which have not yet been officially published.

As I said, genuine refugees, who are willing to integrate, I have no problem with.

Wasting 11 million on 40 migrants, however.....

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

I get that some people believe that how deserving of human compassion a person is is a direct function of where they had the manners to be born, but not everyone feels that way.

Its not a vague notion of "human compassion" we are talking about here, its about giving direct access of our taxpayer funded social welfare system to people on the other side of the world.

Do you realise thare are always small wars going on at any given time, and most of the countries involved have bigger populations than Ireland?
How is it a solution to evacuate the entire populations of these larger countries and bring them to Ireland?
How is it any solution to bring a tiny token of 40 individuals and spend €20M on them?
Would it not be better to spend that money feeding and housing a few thousand people in UN refugee camps adjacent to the war zones, so they could go home after the wars end?

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure, and if the Irish navy had just strafed the feckers in their boats instead of rescuing them, that might have discouraged them too.

Normal practice when rescuing someone at sea is to take them to the nearest port, or if the ship was on a tight commercial schedule, take them to whatever port it was going to beforehand.
The Irish navy is picking these people up just outside the Libyan 12 mile territorial limit, and then ferrying them hundreds of miles to Italy.
The ordinary Italian people are getting more and more pi$$ed off.

newacc2015

oscarBravo wrote: »

That was supposed to be an answer to my question? Sure, and if the Irish navy had just strafed the feckers in their boats instead of rescuing them, that might have discouraged them too.

Yes. Have you ever wondered how a 16 year old has gotten from Aleppo, Syria to Calais, France? You basically saying it is dreadful they are there, without questioning how they got there.

I am not saying let them drown. If the Irish navy instead of picking up boatloads of people in the sea and bringing them to Italy, if they keep picking them up and bringing them to Libya. Pretty quickly the vast amount going to Europe would stop.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I really can't get my head around how some people think "if we refuse to acknowledge that they're human, they might just stay in the miserable shíthole countries where they belong" is an acceptable view to express.

Do you know the difference between an asylum seeker and an economic migrant? Because looking at your comments, you don't appear to at all. A Syrian who goes to Turkey is safe and is an asylum seeker. A Syrian who gets to Turkey and doesn't like the standard of living and decides to head to Germany is still an asylum seeker, but they are more so an economic migrant. They were safe in Turkey, but they want a higher wage in Germany

No one is saying people should have to stay in a war zone, people are sick of individuals who can't tell the difference between an economic migrant and asylum seeker who believe economic migrants should be allowed to shop for the European country with the best welfare system/job market. There is a massive difference between lack of empathy towards asylum seekers and allowing economic migration

newacc2015

newacc2015 wrote: »

There is a massive difference between lack of empathy towards asylum seekers and allowing economic migration

+ 1.

Not only economic migration, but uncontrolled economic migration.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

+ 1.

Not only economic migration, but uncontrolled economic migration.

How many economic migrants left these shores for better lives?

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How many economic migrants left these shores for better lives?

How many of them were picked up by a Naval Taxi service, allowed to freely (or as near as makes no nevermind) enter their Country of choice, and were then fed, clothed, and housed as refugees by that Country?

None.

Controlled migration is one thing.

Accepting migrants posing as refugees, with all the associated benefits, is quite another.

dissed doc

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How many economic migrants left these shores for better lives?

Let's check the Atlantic coastguard that picked up the famine ships 12 miles off the coast of Clare and ferried them to new York, supplying them on arrival with money, food, and housing, and education and healthcare.

Yes I remember that well.

It was well documented in the "Changs of New York", a documentary film on well-meaning Chinese local politicians in the 1850s who took it upon themselves to spend limitless amounts of money on personal projects such as a the Irish Refugee Catholics-only Centre in Times Square.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How many of them were picked up by a Naval Taxi service, allowed to freely (or as near as makes no nevermind) enter their Country of choice, and were then fed, clothed, and housed as refugees by that Country?

None.

Controlled migration is one thing.

Accepting migrants posing as refugees, with all the associated benefits, is quite another.

Ah so because the Irish did it a different way then that's OK?

It's true what they say, a nation of begrudgers.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ah so because the Irish did it a different way then that's OK?

It's true what they say, a nation of begrudgers.

If you're trying to play the sympathy card for Irish citizens who are in the USA illegally, you're wasting your time.

Migration needs to be controlled, for the benefit of the host Country, as well as the migrants themselves. It doesn't matter whether the migrants are Irish/Middle eastern/African/ or A.N Other. That statement still holds true.

Now, did any Country the Irish migrated to provide a Naval taxi service, treat them as refugees, house them, feed them, and clothe them - or not?

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you're trying to play the sympathy card for Irish citizens who are in the USA illegally, you're wasting your time.

Migration needs to be controlled, for the benefit of the host Country, as well as the migrants themselves. It doesn't matter whether the migrants are Irish/Middle eastern/African/ or A.N Other. That statement still holds true.

Now, did any Country the Irish migrated to provide a Naval taxi service, treat them as refugees, house them, feed them, and clothe them - or not?

This while "Naval taxi service" thing is a load of Bollix and you know it, many countries came together to help save thousands of people who were in the open sea in very dangerous craft, I suppose you would have just thrown them.a tow line and dragged them back across the oceans?

As for refugees, yes the Irish (many who were sick) were treated in centers on arrival in the US, many thousands are all over the world living illegally as "economic" immigrants but sure they're Irish so we won't talk about them

xylitol_works

The Irish Navy are acting as people traffickers. That is what they do, traffic people from Africa to Italy.

It's a disgrace. We shouldn't be doing it. It could be argued that the Irish navy is engaging in treason.

Providing help or support to a foreign army or soldier is treason.

ISIS have said that they intend to infiltrate soldiers into refugee flows into Europe.

If we help the refugee flows we are potentially helping ISIS.

If we deliberately close our eyes to that fact, and if we refuse to vet foreigners who may be ISIS members, we are being reckless as to whether or not we are engaging in treason.

That may well be proscutable in court as treason. The Irish Navy is being reckless as to whether or not it is engaged in treason.

Of course our craven government has no intention of doing so.




I don't agree that we should take children from France. France is not at war and the children may not be children.

We should say no.

But Enda Kenny was never able to stand up to the French. Remember when Sarkozy ruffled his hair like a schoolchild? Cringy, and very weak. Bosco.

Timberrrrrrrr

xylitol_works wrote: »

The Irish Navy are acting as people traffickers. That is what they do, traffic people from Africa to Italy.

It's a disgrace. We shouldn't be doing it. It could be argued that the Irish navy is engaging in treason.

Providing help or support to a foreign army or soldier is treason.

ISIS have said that they intend to infiltrate soldiers into refugee flows into Europe.

If we help the refugee flows we are potentially helping ISIS.

If we deliberately close our eyes to that fact, and if we refuse to vet foreigners who may be ISIS members, we are being reckless as to whether or not we are engaging in treason.

That may well be proscutable in court as treason. The Irish Navy is being reckless as to whether or not it is engaged in treason.

Of course our craven government has no intention of doing so.




I don't agree that we should take children from France. France is not at war and the children may not be children.

We should say no.

But Enda Kenny was never able to stand up to the French. Remember when Sarkozy ruffled his hair like a schoolchild? Cringy, and very weak. Bosco.

Lol


Hello new.poster, very edgy stuff there.

You'll fit right in here :rolleyes:

xylitol_works

Care to address the points made?

Timberrrrrrrr

xylitol_works wrote: »

Care to address the points made?

You haven't made any points you have made ridiculous accusations of treason!

xylitol_works

Knowingly providing support to ISIS would be treason wouldn't it?

If you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears is it then ok?


The Irish Navy is closing its eyes and sticking its fingers into its ears.

Timberrrrrrrr

xylitol_works wrote: »

Knowingly providing support to ISIS would be treason wouldn't it?

If you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears is it then ok?


The Irish Navy is closing its eyes and sticking its fingers into its ears.

Who is doing this?

Can you please name and shame the people in the Irish navy who are doing this and post your evidence for this claim?

Gatling

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

This while "Naval taxi service" thing is a load of Bollix and you know it, many countries came together to help save thousands of people who were in the open sea in very dangerous craft, I suppose you would have just thrown them.a tow line and dragged them back across the oceans?

Ferrying economic migrants hoping to find a fortune In the EU ,
And what's wrong with returning them to safe african state ,

Timberrrrrrrr

Gatling wrote: »

Ferrying economic migrants hoping to find a fortune In the EU ,
And what's wrong with returning them to safe african state ,

Irish Naval ships would have no right to enter African territorial waters without an invite so just shipping them back and dumping them anywhere is not a valid option, which African state should they be taken to?

Bubbaclaus

It's eye opening reading the comments of some posters on here (i.e. oldbill etc) that clearly don't consider these people to be human beings. I think society will look back on this era and the opinions expressed a lot like 1930/40s and cringe.

Thankfully opinions like that are in the minority.

xylitol_works

The Irish Navy should not travel hundreds of kilometers in order to wait for distress calls. That is not required under any law.

We are cuck fools.

Gatling

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Irish Naval ships would have no right to enter African territorial waters without an invite

Like the invite from the several Libyan opposing governments,
These are economic migrants not refugees at no stage should any naval force be used to provide a taxi service from Libyan waters to Italy or other EU states

Timberrrrrrrr

xylitol_works wrote: »

The Irish Navy should not tavel hundreds of kilometers in orders to wait for distress calls. That is not required under any law.

We are cuck fools.

You should really read up on things you know nothing about before you embarrass yourself


http://www.sealaw.com/maritime-law-cruise-ships-and-assistance-for-distressed-boaters/

The IMO explicitly states this requirement in its International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea: “A master of a ship at sea, which is in a position to be able to provide assistance on receiving a signal from any source that persons are in distress at sea, is bound to proceed with all speed to their assistance.”

Old Bill

xylitol_works wrote: »

Knowingly providing support to ISIS would be treason wouldn't it?

If you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears is it then ok?


The Irish Navy is closing its eyes and sticking its fingers into its ears.

Meanwhile while the Irish Navy is over there illegal drugs flow into Ireland through our open coastline.

The drug importers here must be rubbing their hands with glee.

Old Bill

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

It's eye opening reading the comments of some posters on here (i.e. oldbill etc) that clearly don't consider these people to be human beings. I think society will look back on this era and the opinions expressed a lot like 1930/40s and cringe.

Thankfully opinions like that are in the minority.

Your talking nonsense. Where did I say they're not human ?

Bubbaclaus

Old Bill wrote: »

Your talking nonsense. Where did I say they're not human ?

Well you clearly don't feel than Human Rights apply to these people and feel they should be treated differently to Irish nationals.

Where do you treat them as humans?

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you be willing to accept figures from Frontex?

Sure, if we were talking about economic migrants or asylum seekers. But we're not: we're talking about refugees.

newacc2015 wrote: »

You basically saying it is dreadful they are there, without questioning how they got there.

No; I'm basically challenging the idea that a child in a refugee camp is "safe".

Do you know the difference between an asylum seeker and an economic migrant?

Yes. Do you know the difference between those things and a refugee?

xylitol_works wrote: »

We are cuck fools.

It's always helpful when someone uses the sort of language that demonstrates that they're mindlessly repeating alt-right nonsense and can be safely ignored.

xylitol_works

quoting is not working for me.

Timberrrrr said.
You should really read up on things you know nothing about before you embarrass yourself

http:/ /www .sealaw. com/maritime-law-c...essed-boaters/

Quote:
The IMO explicitly states this requirement in its International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea: “A master of a ship at sea, which is in a position to be able to provide assistance on receiving a signal from any source that persons are in distress at sea, is bound to proceed with all speed to their assistance.”

End Timberrrr quote.





The Irish Navy is not required to travel hundreds of kilometers in order to wait for distress calls.

That is what I said, and that is what you deliberately failed to comprehend.

It is you who is embarrassing himself.

The Irish Navy could come home and ignore the calls. That would be consistent with the law, and consistent with the purpose of the Irish Navy.

Gatling

Anyhow taxi service has been done to death across several threads,

What departments should have a budget cut to fund these incoming 17 year olds

xylitol_works

Yes, sorry for the off-topic chat. I got distracted.

The children from Calais shouldn't be coming. The money should be spent on Irish children instead.

275,000.00 per child. Ridic!

Zappone should be sent home with her tail between her legs.

Stheno

xylitol_works wrote: »

Yes, sorry for the off-topic chat. I got distracted.

The children from Calais shouldn't be coming. The money should be spent on Irish children instead.

275,000.00 per child. Ridic!

Zappone should be sent home with her tail between her legs.

Home to where? Shes an irish citizen

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

This while "Naval taxi service" thing is a load of Bollix and you know it, many countries came together to help save thousands of people who were in the open sea in very dangerous craft, I suppose you would have just thrown them.a tow line and dragged them back across the oceans?

As for refugees, yes the Irish (many who were sick) were treated in centers on arrival in the US, many thousands are all over the world living illegally as "economic" immigrants but sure they're Irish so we won't talk about them

So, the Navy didn't leave Irish waters, and travel to the Mediterranean with express orders to pick up migrants? News to me.

Were the Irish in the US - either historically, or currently - given refugee status, with associated benefits, or not?

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure, if we were talking about economic migrants or asylum seekers. But we're not: we're talking about refugees.

Who's talking about refugees?
I've already stated that I have no problem with genuine refugees, though I would expect them to integrate!

Did you read the link I posted?
Here's the relevant section, again:

More than half of the people now coming to Europe come from countries where you can assume they have no reason whatsoever to ask for refugee status... more than half, 60 per cent,” he told Dutch broadcaster NOS.

That information came from Frontex.

xylitol_works

Zappone is only an Irish citizen since 1995. She looks older than 22 to me.

I would prefer if she practiced politics in her birth country.

How she got voted in I'll never know.

newacc2015

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

It's eye opening reading the comments of some posters on here (i.e. oldbill etc) that clearly don't consider these people to be human beings. I think society will look back on this era and the opinions expressed a lot like 1930/40s and cringe.

Thankfully opinions like that are in the minority.

Are you really comparing people ignoring the mass genocide of a single religion to the fact some people disagree with allowing millions Syrians who are safely living in camps in Jordan and Turkey moving to Europe for a better quality of life? Im sorry but there is no comparison there at all and to think so is ridiculous.

German let a lot of Turks in after the war to rebuild their country and it has turned out to be a disaster. Europeans are right to be concerned about allowing a massive group of a single nationality into one country as in most cases it has failed dramatically ie Turks in Germany, Algerians in France, Turks in Belgium, etc.

Gatling

xylitol_works wrote: »

Zappone is only an Irish citizen since 1995. She looks older than 22 to me.

I would prefer if she practiced politics in her birth country.

How she got voted in I'll never know.

She got voted in because she's done more for people going back to education than several TDs over several years did ,

But let's not make this a rant about her

newacc2015

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure, if we were talking about economic migrants or asylum seekers. But we're not: we're talking about refugees.

Yes. Do you know the difference between those things and a refugee?

How do you distinguish between these terms? A refugee is a super broad term that is not specific at all.

Gatling

newacc2015 wrote: »

How do you distinguish between these terms? A refugee is a super broad term that is not specific at all.

Let's take multiple interviews with people newly arrived on boats where individuals say that they own property and businesss in their country of origin but fled (losslessly applied word) to make more money In the UK or EU now no threat to life ,no religious persecution or political persecution , fleeing from war or conflict .

Refugee or economic migrant

Timberrrrrrrr

Gatling wrote: »

Let's take multiple interviews with people newly arrived on boats where individuals say that they own property and businesss in their country of origin but fled (losslessly applied word) to make more money In the UK or EU now no threat to life ,no religious persecution or political persecution , fleeing from war or conflict .

Refugee or economic migrant

I'm in the UK at the moment and there are 6 Romanian lads working in my place who say the same thing, I know many Irish and indeed English people who went to USA, Canada, Australia etc for the same reason. Here's some breaking news for you, people will move to other countries for a better life.

Gatling

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'm in the UK at the moment and there are 6 Romanian lads working in my place who say the same thing,

But not their not refugees

dissed doc

Stheno wrote: »

Home to where? Shes an irish citizen

That doesn't mean Ireland is her home.

Spirtually by her policy of wanting to spend €270k per year per migrant on her harem of 40 young 17 year old boys, this middle aged "lesbian" is trying to present a fait accompli , spending money that isn't hers, on people that we owe nothing to, who simply bullied their way to an illegal squat camp to try and scab a trip to the UK.

Her culture and upbringing is very alien to anyone who has actually been raised in Ireland to native Irish parents.

Me getting a Cork passport, and living there for a few years having moved from Galway, doesn't mean I am from Cork or ever will be.

Zappone is a blow in. It's time she blew back out again.

Gatling

dissed doc wrote: »

That doesn't mean Ireland is her home.

Spirtually by her policy of wanting to spend €270k per year per migrant on her harem of 40 young 17 year old boys, this middle aged "lesbian" is trying to present a fait accompli , spending money that isn't hers, on people that we owe nothing to, who simply bullied their way to an illegal squat camp to try and scab a trip to the UK.

Her culture and upbringing is very alien to anyone who has actually been raised in Ireland to native Irish parents.

Me getting a Cork passport, and living there for a few years having moved from Galway, doesn't mean I am from Cork or ever will be.

Zappone is a blow in. It's time she blew back out again.

All I got from that was blow in lesbian spending someone's elses money that isn't her's

Timberrrrrrrr

Gatling wrote: »

But not their not refugees

You're right they are economic immigants so because they have a "right" to be here that's OK with you. I don't see immigrant or refugee I see human being, maybe that's the difference between us.

Gatling

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You're right they are economic immigants so because they have a "right" to be here that's OK with you.

Didn't say otherwise all I said not refugees

Timberrrrrrrr

Gatling wrote: »

Didn't say otherwise all I said not refugees

2 cheeks of the same arse

It's just justifying the Irish habit of doing the exact same thing for the exact same reasons.

Gatling

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

2 cheeks of the same arse

It's just justifying the Irish habit of doing the exact same thing for the exact same reasons.

Absolutely no idea whats that's all about ,

Gatling

If I'm correct this will bring our spending on housing asylum seekers to near €300 million pa and not including legal fees for barrister's and human rights lawyers

Stealthfins

Timberrrrrrrr wrote:

It's just justifying the Irish habit of doing the exact same thing for the exact same reasons.

But the culture the Irish are used to is much different.
And you may hear about boozed up Irish sometimes, but they're not out trying to instill Catholic doctrine everywhere they go.....

Timberrrrrrrr

Stealthfins wrote: »

But the culture the Irish are used to is much different.
And you may hear about boozed up Irish sometimes, but they're not out trying to instill Catholic doctrine everywhere they go.....

No you're right, I have worked with many Muslim over the last 30 years and not a sigle one of them has even blinked when I told them I am an Atheist never mind tried to convert me


But keep listening to the media lads apparently I would have had my throat cut 1000 times if I had divulged this information to your average everyday Muslim.

dissed doc

Gatling wrote: »

If I'm correct this will bring our spending on housing asylum seekers to near €300 million pa and not including legal fees for barrister's and human rights lawyers

Actually it is something like this:

€640 million/year: foreign aid (to refugees for example, in Turkey, or Africa)
€150 million/year: the 5000 asylum seekers already in Ireland

And coming up (at costs based on Zappone's own figures):

€1080 million/year: the 4000 new migrants and refugees (at €278k/person/year)

Total cost of this liberal masturbation within 5 years at current official cost estimates: €1.9 Billion/year.

Let's just shut the country down. We need to drain the state of its ability to destroy the country's finances a second time.

Bubbaclaus

dissed doc wrote: »

Stheno wrote: »

Home to where? Shes an irish citizen

That doesn't mean Ireland is her home.

Spirtually by her policy of wanting to spend €270k per year per migrant on her harem of 40 young 17 year old boys, this middle aged "lesbian" is trying to present a fait accompli , spending money that isn't hers, on people that we owe nothing to, who simply bullied their way to an illegal squat camp to try and scab a trip to the UK.

Her culture and upbringing is very alien to anyone who has actually been raised in Ireland to native Irish parents.

Me getting a Cork passport, and living there for a few years having moved from Galway, doesn't mean I am from Cork or ever will be.

Zappone is a blow in. It's time she blew back out again.

Why do you have lesbian in quotations?