Teachers not in real world etc.

deiseindublin

I don't know, if somebody constantly picks and picks at your job and comments ad nauseum at something they don't work in , I think it'd be fairer to actually say what their own occupation is. I mean, if I'm asked what my occupation is, I don't say I'm PAYE.

mariaalice

deiseindublin wrote: »

I don't know, if somebody constantly picks and picks at your job and comments ad nauseum at something they don't work in , I think it'd be fairer to actually say what their own occupation is. I mean, if I'm asked what my occupation is, I don't say I'm PAYE.

Let alone BoatMads unkindness and disrespect to his/her partners career.

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

I don't know, if somebody constantly picks and picks at your job and comments ad nauseum at something they don't work in , I think it'd be fairer to actually say what their own occupation is. I mean, if I'm asked what my occupation is, I don't say I'm PAYE.

It's kinda different though (yes teachers are special). Like, it's obvious were teachers so we'd never post where exactly we live cos it'd be too easy to figure out who we are. Whereas other posters might say where they live but withhold other identifying information. Ireland being a small place and all that.

But I think if we're going to play the game of 'my big brother is tougher than yours' then let's compare and contrast properly.

Notorious

BoatMad wrote: »

teachers are amongst the best paid etc etc

There are some major fallacies in your argument, and this is probably the biggest offender.

I was talking to new PWC graduates intakes that are working ti 9pm every night without additional pay , !!!!!. seriously

Most of these graduates will be on six figure salaries by their late 30s. You're not comparing like with like.

and please no teacher has a clue about the conditions in spar. again lets not descent into nonsense comparisons

What about teachers who worked in other industries before they started teaching?

Sir123

Guys, it's ok. Boatman is just one of those individuals of the public that I like to call ' a teacher basher'. We see them and hear them everywhere but in reality, these people do not know what it's like to be in the classroom, standing in front of nearly thirty students with nearly thirty different personalities, each having different needs and abilities.

In terms of my job versus your job, it's like me saying, 'I know exactly what your job is like Boatman, you have it easy. You only do this and you only do that, you never do this and you never do that. You can take as long as you want for your break and your lunch, you have it easy'. I'm afraid it doesn't work like that and I would never speak of another profession in the manner that your have, patronising without a doubt, absolutely ridiculous.

In terms of your reference to teachers not knowing what it's like to work in retail, how do you know? Do you honestly think teachers never worked in different sectors before they joined teaching? If you think this, you are sadly wrong sir.

Moreover, I find your comments extremely flawed and a direct attack on teachers. You can't compare like with like. Each sector is different. While Boatman may find that his conditions are vastly different to that of a teacher, his job is in fact different. He fails to neglect all the additional work teachers do in a school, and not just the 22 timetabled hours. It is so much more. We all do extra work, it's what makes a school run. Who's going to correct the copies at night or organise additional workshops, sporting events and extra-curricular activities for your children? Would you prefer that this was all done in class via a work to rule by teachers that just facilitates education in a teachers' timetabled hours and nothing more? i.e: just teach in that class and never correct a copy? I think you'd find not only yourself, but many other parents creating a ruckus over this.

In conclusion, I understand that your wife is a teacher but you are not. You do not do her job. You just hear about her day at work and vice versa. I would recommend that you become a teacher if you think it's so great.

BoatMad

actually folks, I pointed out in the other forum , that my main point ( and I have said it again and again) is not that teachers dont have grievances , but that this fight is a fight that cannot be won at this time . Until teachers have unity of grievance , so to speak, the fight is useless.

it was others that asked me my occupation and then tried to turn this into a them versus us , ( I was quite happy to debate that , as long as it didnt turn nasty , which one or two have tried here , as its always useful to divert the issue in a " bashing session ")

by the way , I didnt make a bad decision being self employed, I earn an extremely good living from it. Nor did Iseek to compare myself to teachers or whinge about it . what I did point out that many small self employed businesses are very difficult to make money at and support conditions are terrible ,

Again , my original point , way back , was that this is the wrong fight in the battle. I personally hold no ill will to ASTI , but I think its going to do huge damage to the union , I personally know 12 teachers that have transferred out of ASTI in recent months.

I have no intention of descending into the details of PAYE versus self employed, because most people , especially PAYE people,m can hardly understand the PAYE system , never mind having any exact knowledge of self employed tax ( or company tax ),

Again , my central point remains , that this is not a flight ASTI can win IMHO .

BoatMad

Sir123 wrote: »

Guys, it's ok. Boatman is just one of those individuals of the public that I like to call ' a teacher basher'. We see them and hear them everywhere but in reality, these people do not know what it's like to be in the classroom, standing in front of nearly thirty students with nearly thirty different personalities, each having different needs and abilities.

In terms of my job versus your job, it's like me saying, 'I know exactly what your job is like Boatman, you have it easy. You only do this and you only do that, you never do this and you never do that. You can take as long as you want for your break and your lunch, you have it easy'. I'm afraid it doesn't work like that and I would never speak of another profession in the manner that your have, patronising without a doubt, absolutely ridiculous.

In terms of your reference to teachers not knowing what it's like to work in retail, how do you know? Do you honestly think teachers never worked in different sectors before they joined teaching? If you think this, you are sadly wrong sir.

Moreover, I find your comments extremely flawed and a direct attack on teachers. You can't compare like with like. Each sector is different. While Boatman may find that his conditions are vastly different to that of a teacher, his job is in fact different. He fails to neglect all the additional work teachers do in a school, and not just the 22 timetabled hours. It is so much more. We all do extra work, it's what makes a school run. Who's going to correct the copies at night or organise additional workshops, sporting events and extra-curricular activities for your children? Would you prefer that this was all done in class via a work to rule by teachers that just facilitates education in a teachers' timetabled hours and nothing more? i.e: just teach in that class and never correct a copy? I think you'd find not only yourself, but many other parents creating a ruckus over this.

In conclusion, I understand that your wife is a teacher but you are not. You do not do her job. You just hear about her day at work and vice versa. I would recommend that you become a teacher if you think it's so great.

I will do one reply to this in a considerate response

I am not arguing that Teachers dont get stressed , have particular pressures , work extra time etc etc

I am merely arguing that Teachers have no unique claim in that regard, thats all. Many jobs are stressful, have lots extra hours with no pay, lack resources and are difficult to perform well etc etc

Thats all Im saying , I acknowledge Teachers issues , but I maintain that ALL workgroups by and large have similar issues with a diverse workplace environment. Yes, the specifics are different , but the overall issues are often similar ( over worked , under paid, over supervised , lack of resources , etc )


Again , in this regard, I am not teacher bashing ( nor would I want to be one, mind you the holidays are nice !) merely I contend that Teachers are not a special case and never were. The only difference is they have more industrial " muscle " then other groups in society.

Thats all Im saying here, it is also not the main contention I was advancing in the other thread

evolving_doors

BoatMad wrote: »

...

I am merely arguing that Teachers [U]have no unique claim [/U]in that regard, thats all. Many jobs are stressful, have lots extra hours with no pay, lack resources and are difficult to perform well etc etc

...

Everyone has their own unique claims to make commensurate to their terms and conditions and pay.

But I would accept your point that it would be better if there was one teacher union. It definitely was a case of divide and conquer.

So should one side acquiesce simply because the other side has? If it were just about money the ASTI would have joined the TUI a long long time ago and taken the payoff.

BoatMad

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Everyone has their own unique claims to make commensurate to their terms and conditions and pay.

But I would accept your point that it would be better if there was one teacher union. It definitely was a case of divide and conquer.

So should one side acquiesce simply because the other side has? If it were just about money the ASTI would have joined the TUI a long long time ago and taken the payoff.

Yes , they should. The current dispute will not be solVed because the Gov cannot be seen to bring down the LRA. ASTI is wasting it's time, the gov would let them rot on the picket , al the while public anger against teachers builds. You know this yourself m the biggest fear amongst ASTI activists is that the ballot will not pass. All the while the members drip away.

BoatMad

Everyone has their own unique claims to make commensurate to their terms and conditions and pay.

Within the context of the minutiae , of course. But my comments were as to the general , ie comments that somehow teachers are uniquely stressed, or overworked, or underpaid , etc etc. There is no unique claim there , many workgroups would have similar general grievances especially many that are non Union

evolving_doors

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes , they should. The current dispute will not be solVed because the Gov cannot be seen to bring down the LRA. ASTI is wasting it's time, the gov would let them rot on the picket , al the while public anger against teachers builds. You know this yourself m the biggest fear amongst ASTI activists is that the ballot will not pass. All the while the members drip away.

I'm thinking though that you've assumed that many teachers are willing to rot stay on a picket if it's for a principle they believe in.

Speaking from my own view... there was too much support from the public for the ASTI position (going by media vox pops and passers by during the last strike/protest... and comparing with previous years).

al the while public anger against teachers builds.

Great, that's what you want when you're protesting.
BTW I think many teachers are sick of pandering to 'public sentiment'.

You say 'members drip away'. Although I've yet to see any stats to back this up. ASTI say numbers are up!!!

You know this yourself m the biggest fear amongst ASTI activists is that the ballot will not pass.

Why's that?

evolving_doors

BoatMad wrote: »

Within the context of the minutiae , of course. But my comments were as to the general , ie comments that somehow teachers are uniquely stressed, or overworked, or underpaid , etc etc. There is no unique claim there , many workgroups would have similar general grievances especially many that are non Union

So what can they do about it?

byhookorbycrook

Ah yes, teachers have it easy and we are raking it in, which is why it is practically impossible to get a qualified primary sub. at present, many have given up teaching entirely whilst a huge percentage of recent graduates have emigrated. New entrants to teaching will end up paying more for their pension than they contribute over their life time.

I'd love to give our basher/troll a class of teenagers or 30 junior infants and unleash him/her on them - see what a cushy number it is then.

Geuze

Leinster chartered accountants

salary survey 2016

https://leinster.charteredaccountants.ie/Global/Leinster/J1333%20CAI%20Salary%20Survey%202016_for%20final%20release.pdf

• Average total salary package for newly qual acc in industry = 56,800
  
• Average Salary Package (base salary + car or car allowance + bonus) for a Chartered Accountant in Leinster is 109,756. This is an increase of almost 9% on the 2015 figure of 100,780.
  
• 75% of respondents have seen their salary increase by at least 10% over the last three years.

If we are to attract high quality people to teaching, then we need to pay them well.

IMHO, a principal is a very important job, and should be paid more than a senior accountant.

BoatMad

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So what can they do about it?

Very little

BoatMad

Geuze wrote: »

Leinster chartered accountants

salary survey 2016

https://leinster.charteredaccountants.ie/Global/Leinster/J1333%20CAI%20Salary%20Survey%202016_for%20final%20release.pdf

• Average total salary package for newly qual acc in industry = 56,800
  
• Average Salary Package (base salary + car or car allowance + bonus) for a Chartered Accountant in Leinster is 109,756. This is an increase of almost 9% on the 2015 figure of 100,780.
  
• 75% of respondents have seen their salary increase by at least 10% over the last three years.

If we are to attract high quality people to teaching, then we need to pay them well.

IMHO, a principal is a very important job, and should be paid more than a senior accountant.

A chartered accountant is not just a simple accountant. Nor are charters accountants minted from college , they typically do the exams later often much later.

There is no evidence that low pay is causing a shortage of teachers. Schools have no issue finding many newly qualified teachers to work on low hours contracts.

I've said before , I not saying teachers don't have grievances , I have said before that new entrants will pay to be paid more , or more correctly given proper contracts . That's not what I'm arguing.

byhookorbycrook

BoatMad wrote: »

A chartered accountant is not just a simple accountant. Nor are charters accountants minted from college , they typically do the exams later often much later.

There is no evidence that low pay is causing a shortage of teachers. Schools have no issue finding many newly qualified teachers to work on low hours contracts.

I've said before , I not saying teachers don't have grievances , I have said before that new entrants will pay to be paid more , or more correctly given proper contracts . That's not what I'm arguing.

Actually, there is, have you tried to employ a primary sub lately?No?Thought not.

byhookorbycrook

Geuze wrote: »

Leinster chartered accountants

salary survey 2016

https://leinster.charteredaccountants.ie/Global/Leinster/J1333%20CAI%20Salary%20Survey%202016_for%20final%20release.pdf

• Average total salary package for newly qual acc in industry = 56,800
• Average Salary Package (base salary + car or car allowance + bonus) for a Chartered Accountant in Leinster is 109,756. This is an increase of almost 9% on the 2015 figure of 100,780.
• 75% of respondents have seen their salary increase by at least 10% over the last three years.

If we are to attract high quality people to teaching, then we need to pay them well.

IMHO, a principal is a very important job, and should be paid more than a senior accountant.

Ah now, don't you know this is a teacher bashing thread, go on away with your logic and common sense.

amacca

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes , they should. The current dispute will not be solVed because the Gov cannot be seen to bring down the LRA. ASTI is wasting it's time, the gov would let them rot on the picket , al the while public anger against teachers builds. You know this yourself m the biggest fear amongst ASTI activists is that the ballot will not pass. All the while the members drip away.

Theres a pretty easy counter argument to that one

You are assuming its going to a picket..(I'm going to assume it suits your argument presenting the situation as a binary choice between accept or picket - either that or you don't realise there are other options)

...it doesn't have to be the nuclear option at all.......rolling over and meekly accepting would be a gigantic mistake imo

the ASTI can't afford to back down on this one or there will be nothing left to fight for, they just have to box clever for a change (if of course their members give them the mandate - and that will mean getting out ahead of and countering much of the fear tactics/outright lies and guff the vested interests on the Govt side will sling as well) ....weak Govt will run out of rope eventually...why let them bully ASTI teachers into submission and worsen the education system as a consequence ? wear them down and then enter negotiations after showing some spine and with something to bargain with for the next shower when this Govt inevitably collapses ...as opposed to give up your right to object to any "reforms" (highly dubious that they represent reforms at all) for a pittance when all is said and done + all the additional non productive nonsense heaped on top of it.....maybe just maybe they will be forced to have some respect for the education system, resource it properly instead of yellow packing it and wondering why its not performing like the Finnish system without resourcing it like that system and respecting the teachers that work in it in the same fashion.....if ASTI roll over they will be kicked like dogs at negotiations in the future because there won't be seen to be much consequence to playing real hardball with them

Whereas if its not accepted again then the Govt may have to actually do its job rather than railroad a group of people just because it thinks it can get away with it.

BTW can you in any way substantiate your claims that members are dripping away?......it sounds like fear tactics as do many of your posts

deiseindublin

Membership is up, as per headlines this week.

evolving_doors

BoatMad wrote: »

Very little

Maybe they should form a union!

MrJones1973

People make career choices for various reasons. Each job has its unique stress. Sometimes a person is suited to the stress-sometimes not. I knew a plumber who hated his job as he put it-people only rang him with bad news.

Teaching is unique in that students are not our employees. Even in health and safety legislation they are classed as visitors legally. I think that does give it a unique uniqueness if that makes any sense. Its the only job I know where a subordinate cant be fired or moved even though he is a total bollix who does nothing. Please no pity the children responses.

I know that in my first ten years of teaching I found it enormously stressful. Unlike a lot of other jobs you are left to sink or swim. You would not send in an apprentice plumber to fix a leak would you ? On his own ? There was also chronic job insecurity which was worse than now. Temporary teachers have way better rights than we had. I know other teachers might not have been as stressed as I was but the job training is and was ****e. Now they load trainee teachers with loads of bull **** paperwork.

I said it before but job security is its own curse.. Sometimes you feel like you are in a badly written sit com that should have been cancelled years ago but lingers on.
But rapid change is the new norm now and we all can be affected by it.

We all feel like the cattle of more powerful men . Many self employed people washed away by recession. Many teachers too but probably less. You get used to your own brand of pain!