I bet you didnt know that

Realt Dearg Sec

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Anders Shy Aircraft wrote: »

The word "awful" has completely changed from it's original meaning. In the 14th century it referred to inspiring wonder as a short version of “full of awe”. Nowadays the word has purely negative connotations.

There's a church somewhere in Ireland with a plaque that says "this is an aweful place"

Must be in Tipperary.

Esel

Fourier wrote: »

Okay I promised to stay away from the head melting nonsense, but this is quick I promise.:D

Despite what multiple Sci-Fis show, you can't copy/clone information at an atomic level, it's literally impossible. So things like transporters or replicators from Star Trek can't happen. For similar reasons it may not be possible to upload your mind to a computer.

Nooooo! Copypasta is real!

New Home

It might be literally impossible, but it's most definitely literarily possible.

Sephiroth_dude

I bet you didn't know that Lyons tea bags are made from cow manure.

foxy farmer

Sephiroth_dude wrote: »

I bet you didn't know that Lyons tea bags are made from cow manure.

Explains the taste.:)

stimpson

Fourier wrote: »

Traditional Indian belief required speaking 100% correctly to the gods, mistakes equivalent to "you're" vs "your" could have lethal consequences. For this reason Pāṇini (~350 BC) created a sequence of poems that tell you how to "compute" the correct grammar in any given situation, as they form a grammar generating algorithm. These algorithms form the basis of computational work on grammar today, even in google translate.

I'm calling BS on this. Computer translation uses AI which has been trained with billions of sentence pairs to help it learn sentence structure. It's still piss poor compared to human translation because language is not always logical and context is incredibly important to the meaning. The idea that rules of grammar across many languages can be unified is ridiculous. Even English grammar is inconsistent with itself.

donegaLroad

david75 wrote: »

The Americanism ‘you dig?’ Comes from The Irish ‘dtuigeann tú?’
Some guy write a book on Irish phrases that morphed into every day American terms.

'So long' as in farewell, comes from 'slán' (I only heard that last week)

'thats smashing' ---- is maith sin

'mocassin' as in the shoes

---

mo cosan (my feet, in Scots Gaelic I think)

Fourier

stimpson wrote: »

I'm calling BS on this. Computer translation uses AI which has been trained with billions of sentence pairs to help it learn sentence structure.

I choose my wording for a reason, computational work on grammar not translation. The same class of algorithms are used in google translate in consistency checks of its underlying bytecode language.

stimpson wrote: »

It's still piss poor compared to human translation because language is not always logical and context is incredibly important to the meaning.

Of course, again my post is unrelated to translation, purely grammar. For example semantics is not discussed, as it isn't in the original Indian works.

stimpson wrote: »

The idea that rules of grammar across many languages can be unified is ridiculous. Even English grammar is inconsistent with itself.

I never said the rules of grammar can be unified (where is this stuff coming from?) Just that Pāṇini created algorithms which generate the grammar of a non-spoken early Indic language. And that these algorithms are used today in computational grammar.

Claims about semantics or translation accuracy or language unification don't enter my post and I do not understand how the post is BS. What exactly do you think Pāṇini did?

Fourier

stimpson wrote: »

Even English grammar is inconsistent with itself.

I forgot to focus on this, you realise there are computational grammars of English, I can link to examples. The grammar need not be consistent or logical to be computed.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

donegaLroad wrote: »

'So long' as in farewell, comes from 'slán' (I only heard that last week)

'thats smashing' ---- is maith sin

'mocassin' as in the shoes

---

mo cosan (my feet, in Scots Gaelic I think)

The first two are often cited in the etymology of the words but are not definite. Moccasin is certainly not from Gaelic as it's a derivation of shoe from several central and east coast American Indian languages, for example Algonquian = mockasin and Powhatan = makasin. First written in English in the early 1600s.

server down

Fourier wrote: »

What exactly do you think Pāṇini did?

Sandwiches?

server down

Actually I jest ^. According to wiki Fourier has indeed got a point

Pāṇini's grammar is the world's first formal system, developed well before the 19th century innovations of Gottlob Frege and the subsequent development of mathematical logic. In designing his grammar, Pāṇini used the method of "auxiliary symbols", in which new affixes are designated to mark syntactic categories and the control of grammatical derivations. This technique, rediscovered by the logician Emil Post, became a standard method in the design of computer programming languages.[63] Sanskritists now accept that Pāṇini's linguistic apparatus is well-described as an "applied" Post system. Considerable evidence shows ancient mastery of context-sensitive grammars, and a general ability to solve many complex problems. Frits Staal has written that "Panini is the Indian Euclid."

Although the grammar of computer languages is not as complex as normal language, I assume that Sanskrit breaks that rule, Fourier?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pāṇini

Fourier

server down wrote: »

Although the grammar of computer languages is not as complex as normal language, I assume that Sanskrit breaks that rule, Fourier?

I'm definitely not going to pretend to any knowledge of Sanskrit. I'm more familiar with Pāṇini's work from the mathematical end, I.e. as a type of Emil Post's systems, as discussed in your link.

What I do know is that Sanskrit is, in some sense I don't understand as a non-linguist, too regular or elegant to be a natural language reflecting its "generated" nature.

server down

Anders Shy Aircraft wrote: »

The first two are often cited in the etymology of the words but are not definite. Moccasin is certainly not from Gaelic as it's a derivation of shoe from several central and east coast American Indian languages, for example Algonquian = mockasin and Powhatan = makasin. First written in English in the early 1600s.

I think a lot of this fake etymology is finding similar sounding words in the favoured language and assuming they influenced English. Irish doesnt seem to have really influenced English (certainly not British English) all that much.

I used to think shanty was from Sean Tí based on nothing more than the similarty of name and meaing. The most accepted evidence is it is from the French chantier

server down

Fourier wrote: »

I'm definitely not going to pretend to any knowledge of Sanskrit. I'm more familiar with Pāṇini's work from the mathematical end, I.e. as a type of Emil Post's systems, as discussed in your link.

What I do know is that Sanskrit is, in some sense I don't understand as a non-linguist, too regular or elegant to be a natural language reflecting its "generated" nature.

Irregular verbs are, I assume, removed.

Humans according to Chomsky are built for learning regular verbs. Without being told children will pick up grammatical rules and use them without being told. No child says "I goed" because they heard it, or because they were taught formal grammar, but because they picked up that adding "ed" is the normal regular past tense.

This doesnt seem to be conscious.

Professor Moriarty

server down wrote: »

I think a lot of this fake etymology is finding similar sounding words in the favoured language and assuming they influenced English. Irish doesnt seem to have really influenced English (certainly not British English) all that much.

I used to think shanty was from Sean Tí based on nothing more than the similarty of name and meaing. The most accepted evidence is it is from the French chantier

Ironically, 'Tory' comes from 'toraidhe' - a 17th century Irish word for a rebel or outlaw.

stimpson

Do you have a source Fourier? I spent some time looking for any evidence of Paninian Framework usage in MT, and the only reference I found was for Anusaaraka, an application specifically for English to Indian languages such as Sanskrit and Urdu.

I have found no evidence of it being used by Google's GNMT, Bing Translate or any other commercial MT system.

donegaLroad

Anders Shy Aircraft wrote: »

The first two are often cited in the etymology of the words but are not definite. Moccasin is certainly not from Gaelic as it's a derivation of shoe from several central and east coast American Indian languages, for example Algonquian = mockasin and Powhatan = makasin. First written in English in the early 1600s.

I heard the moccasin claim from someone who believes that the Irish and Scottish were in North America long before the British.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

donegaLroad wrote: »

I heard the moccasin claim from someone who believes that the Irish and Scottish were in North America long before the British.

And influenced the language of dozens of native tribes right into centre of the continent, who all use a form of the word? Extremely unlikely.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

server down wrote: »

I think a lot of this fake etymology is finding similar sounding words in the favoured language and assuming they influenced English. Irish doesnt seem to have really influenced English (certainly not British English) all that much.

I used to think shanty was from Sean Tí based on nothing more than the similarty of name and meaing. The most accepted evidence is it is from the French chantier

But we did give the English language hooligan and slob.

New Home

And boycott and galore.

Professor Moriarty

And smithereens.

Gloomtastic!

Which came first, the French garçon or or the Irish gosson?

Ipso

david75 wrote: »

The Americanism ‘you dig?’ Comes from The Irish ‘dtuigeann tú?’
Some guy write a book on Irish phrases that morphed into every day American terms.

He also got ripped to shreds by linguists for the majority of it.

https://grantbarrett.com/humdinger-of-a-bad-irish-scholar/
http://www.michaelpatrickbrady.com/blog/complete-blarney-daniel-cassidys-how-the-irish-invented-slang/

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Which came first, the French garçon or or the Irish gosson?

The Irish comes from the French.

donegaLroad

the Irish word for plane is eitleán, and I always wondered if it had any link to the word 'echelon', as in 'the upper echelons of society'... echelon being a French word meaning a rung on a ladder, which refers to climbing upwards.

Capt'n Midnight

stimpson wrote: »

I'm calling BS on this. Computer translation uses AI which has been trained with billions of sentence pairs to help it learn sentence structure. It's still piss poor compared to human translation because language is not always logical and context is incredibly important to the meaning. The idea that rules of grammar across many languages can be unified is ridiculous. Even English grammar is inconsistent with itself.

Eliza still holds up well when you consider how old and dumb it is. A few hundred lines of code and word lists from the 1960's.


Today's AI's are better.
But they aren't anything like 50 years and insanely more processing power better.
http://psych.fullerton.edu/mbirnbaum/psych101/Eliza.htm

Fourier

stimpson wrote: »

Do you have a source Fourier? I spent some time looking for any evidence of Paninian Framework usage in MT, and the only reference I found was for Anusaaraka, an application specifically for English to Indian languages such as Sanskrit and Urdu.

I have found no evidence of it being used by Google's GNMT, Bing Translate or any other commercial MT system.

I had another post for this, but I'm trying to phrase it better. What is your contention with my original post. In your first post it seems to be that languages can't be unified and that computers can't make perfect translations because of context. I expressed my confusion with this as I was not discussing translation, which involves semantics, or the grammatical unification of languages. Now your saying Pāṇini's framework isn't in google translate, a point not present in your previous post. Which of these is the issue?

Ipso

donegaLroad wrote: »

the Irish word for plane is eitleán, and I always wondered if it had any link to the word 'echelon', as in 'the upper echelons of society'... echelon being a French word meaning a rung on a ladder, which refers to climbing upwards.

The Irish word for car is carr, it always seemed to me to be one of those words they put no effort into making up an Irish word from English.
The words come from the same as those for carriage and chariot which come from the Gaulish word carrus.
Also the word carpenter originated as a term for someone who makes carriages.

MonkieSocks

Ipso wrote: »

The Irish word for car is carr, it always seemed to me to be one of those words they put no effort into making up an Irish word from English.
The words come from the same as those for carriage and chariot which come from the Gaulish word carrus.
Also the word carpenter originated as a term for someone who makes carriages.

Thought Car was Glustáin