I bet you didnt know that

Capt'n Midnight

On take off the Saturn V produced the same amount of power as the French electrical grid.

iLikeWaffles

kingchess wrote: »

Sorry if posted before in this thread but the Crab nebula is the remains of a super nova that exploded in the year 1054,and was recorded by Chinese astronomers,and was bright enough to be seen by day,.but in Europe there seems to be no record of it even though it must have been clearly visible,Some people put this down to Religious belief,.

Just that everything that had it recorded was burned... Most likely, along with many discoveries that we are only now rediscovering or have yet to discover.

Wibbs

iLikeWaffles wrote: »

Just that everything that had it recorded was burned... Most likely, along with many discoveries that we are only now rediscovering or have yet to discover.

Possibly, though highly unlikely. For a start we haven't found records of it from the Islamic world either and they were recording everything they could get their hands on. As for the Christian world, after the fall of the Western empire, yes astronomy went downhill for a time mainly because of the breakup of the old order and much of the literature being Greek in origin was lost. Which doesn't explain why the eastern Empire of Byzantium that didn't fall and which retained the Greek stuff also didn't note it. However it didn't stay that way for long in the western church.

The Christian church was obsessed with times and dates and for religious purposes with it(when to say prayers, what date did Easter land on etc. Even the word "clock" comes from the Irish word for bell, the bell that rang out the religious duty times) and astronomical observation was a large part of that. By the eleventh century when the Crab Nebula was born the Christian church also had access to the Islamic world's records and techniques and the Greek stuff they had. Yet still it wasn't recorded. Other astronomical events were recorded. A perfect example would be Halley's Comet which was noted, most famously in 1066 on the Bayeux tapestry.

As for burning books, that's generally a more recent thing, post the printing press and really took off as a hobby for the ignorant an all sides in the Reformation. People weren't burning books in the eleventh century, they were too damned expensive and rare. They certainly kept some texts "of concern" on the down low but not so much destruction going on. Never mind that they didn't need to destroy books. They were spread out over large areas, concentrated in libraries and only a tiny minority, those in power and control, could read them anyway(for a time even they couldn't read Greek too well). The great unwashed were in the dark. Such books of concern only really became a problem later on when the great unwashed started to learn to read.

So it's a mystery alright, but little if anything to do with the church and religion. This notion that the church(specifically the Catholic version) held us back is borne more from a post Reformation and Enlightenment worldview and propaganda(with a more recent local flavour added to the pot) rather than reality.

The simplest answer is that it was likely recorded, but we just haven't found the record(s) yet. As I said books were rare and expensive and often overwritten.

Wibbs

The battery was invented before there was a way to charge it by electrical means.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

The battery was invented before there was a way to charge it by electrical means.

So the battery was invented before the rechargeable battery ?

CalamariFritti

kingchess wrote: »

Sorry if posted before in this thread but the Crab nebula is the remains of a super nova that exploded in the year 1054,and was recorded by Chinese astronomers,and was bright enough to be seen by day,.but in Europe there seems to be no record of it even though it must have been clearly visible,Some people put this down to Religious belief,.

Of course it exploded about 5,500 BC and then it took 6,500 years for the light of the explosion to get here.

Big Nasty

Coal miners used to bring caged canaries down in to the coal mines with them. If there was a build up of carbon monoxide the little canary would croak long before the silent killer would start having an effect on humans thus giving the miners an early warning to get out of Dodge.

Tweet, tweet!

valoren

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

On take off the Saturn V produced the same amount of power as the French electrical grid.

The power output generated at lift off was the equivalent to an amount of electrical power that could light up Manhattan for 75 minutes.

I love the quip someone made about conspiracy theorists where they said that if they were there to witness those launches they too, like everyone there, would have left with no doubt about one thing. That 'thing' was going to the moon. :cool:

bonzodog2

The Lockheed SR71 Mach 3.2 high altitude spy plane has 2 engines. Each has as much power as the Queen Mary ocean liner

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Big Nasty wrote: »

Coal miners used to bring caged canaries down in to the coal mines with them. If there was a build up of carbon monoxide the little canary would croak long before the silent killer would start having an effect on humans thus giving the miners an early warning to get out of Dodge.

Tweet, tweet!

Gentlemen, this canary died of natural causes.

valoren

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Gentlemen, this canary died of natural causes.

"Back in the hole!!"

The producers of The Simpsons originally asked Bruce Springsteen to appear in 'Radio Bart'. He declined so they asked Sting instead. Thankfully, he was a good digger.

FanadMan

bonzodog2 wrote: »

The Lockheed SR71 Mach 3.2 high altitude spy plane has 2 engines. Each has as much power as the Queen Mary ocean liner

They also leaked a lot of fuel when on the ground as the tanks only sealed when the plane got up to operating temp.

iLikeWaffles

Wibbs wrote: »

Possibly, though highly unlikely. For a start we haven't found records of it from the Islamic world either and they were recording everything they could get their hands on. As for the Christian world, after the fall of the Western empire, yes astronomy went downhill for a time mainly because of the breakup of the old order and much of the literature being Greek in origin was lost. Which doesn't explain why the eastern Empire of Byzantium that didn't fall and which retained the Greek stuff also didn't note it. However it didn't stay that way for long in the western church.

The Christian church was obsessed with times and dates and for religious purposes with it(when to say prayers, what date did Easter land on etc. Even the word "clock" comes from the Irish word for bell, the bell that rang out the religious duty times) and astronomical observation was a large part of that. By the eleventh century when the Crab Nebula was born the Christian church also had access to the Islamic world's records and techniques and the Greek stuff they had. Yet still it wasn't recorded. Other astronomical events were recorded. A perfect example would be Halley's Comet which was noted, most famously in 1066 on the Bayeux tapestry.

As for burning books, that's generally a more recent thing, post the printing press and really took off as a hobby for the ignorant an all sides in the Reformation. People weren't burning books in the eleventh century, they were too damned expensive and rare. They certainly kept some texts "of concern" on the down low but not so much destruction going on. Never mind that they didn't need to destroy books. They were spread out over large areas, concentrated in libraries and only a tiny minority, those in power and control, could read them anyway(for a time even they couldn't read Greek too well). The great unwashed were in the dark. Such books of concern only really became a problem later on when the great unwashed started to learn to read.

So it's a mystery alright, but little if anything to do with the church and religion. This notion that the church(specifically the Catholic version) held us back is borne more from a post Reformation and Enlightenment worldview and propaganda(with a more recent local flavour added to the pot) rather than reality.

The simplest answer is that it was likely recorded, but we just haven't found the record(s) yet. As I said books were rare and expensive and often overwritten.

Can't argue with any of that but I didn't say the Christian church had records burned. The Crusades started just before the start of the 11th century 1095. They were launched to squash the spread of Islam and Paganism and whatever other beliefs opposed the Christian belief. To retake lands and recapture former Christian Territories. You're hardly going to be scribing with all that conquering going on and what ever was scribed would have had a hard time being saved.

If there was any records its more likely that it was destroyed rather than just not recorded. About 2/3rds of the ancient Christian world had been conquered by Muslims by the end of the 11th century including Palenstine, Syria, Anatolia and Egypt. The Ottoman empire was also involved in the fall of the Empire of Byzantium 14th century. Whatever they conquered (Balkan Peninsula) would have had records destroyed also naturally.

More recently WWI and WWII had more destruction than previous centuries wars and conquering so there is a big pool of destruction going on for over 900 years. Did any of that reach Asia where it was recorded. No but more interestingly around the 14th century was when China was discovering the world with fleets of ships. Its said Marco Polo discovered China its more likely China discovered Europe and wisdom prevailed to steer clear.

New Home

Ah, in fairness, Marco Polo didn't discover China, he travelled there with his father to trade with them, they knew about it.

Capt'n Midnight

Wibbs wrote: »

The battery was invented before there was a way to charge it by electrical means.

BrownFinger wrote: »

So the battery was invented before the rechargeable battery ?

The rechargeable lead acid battery, still in use in most vehicles today, was invented before the first efficient dynamo.


But for me the best bit is that first practical electric motor wasn't invented.

It was discovered by accident.


Someone was charging a battery using a steam powered dynamo. Batteries were handy for electroplating. The alchemy of making cheap crap look like good silverware is still going on today. And they didn't disconnect the battery when shutting down the steam engine. And the dynamo kept running powered by the battery.

Within a few days they'd wired up a generator a mile or so away from the motor and demonstrated long distance power transmission.

iLikeWaffles

New Home wrote: »

Ah, in fairness, Marco Polo didn't discover China, he travelled there with his father to trade with them, they knew about it.

"It is said" never said he discovered or claimed that he did. Popular belief says he discovered it. He travelled the trade route and was more or less held captive while his father was let go and tried to convince China to trade. All while China was out of harms way of the destruction going on perceived by China in what we now call Europe.

Two posts responses saying nothing I said bet you did know that!

Junkyard Tom

Electric cars predate petrol and diseasel cars.

Wibbs

iLikeWaffles wrote: »

They were launched to squash the spread of Islam and Paganism and whatever other beliefs opposed the Christian belief. To retake lands and recapture former Christian Territories.

Well they kicked off in response to Islamic attack, but generally speaking yes.

You're hardly going to be scribing with all that conquering going on and what ever was scribed would have had a hard time being saved.

Only at the point of contact, which was narrow enough. The libraries and monasteries in France, Germany, England, Ireland and so on would have felt little of that conflict beyond what they heard. Even what they heard would have been very limited and episodic.

People lived extremely local lives back then. The vast majority of people lived and died within a ten mile radius of where they were born(a pattern that lasted pretty much until the industrial revolution). About the only wider world they heard of was from travelling troubadours and occasional missives transmitted through the church. So concerns committed to parchment tended to be very local too. If you have a perusal of medieval church/monastic records the bulk of it is along the lines of Joe died, Mary had triplets, the cows gave good milk, a sickness came, it was a harsh winter and such like. Weather and portents in the sky were also a big thing, because for everyone they were "local". And many were recorded, from lightning strikes(common here with the round towers) to "strange moons" and shooting stars and comets. Which again makes the omission of such an apparently obvious heavenly event so odd.

If there was any records its more likely that it was destroyed rather than just not recorded. About 2/3rds of the ancient Christian world had been conquered by Muslims by the end of the 11th century including Palenstine, Syria, Anatolia and Egypt. The Ottoman empire was also involved in the fall of the Empire of Byzantium 14th century. Whatever they conquered (Balkan Peninsula) would have had records destroyed also naturally.

Well the Muslims were very keen on preserving what literature and tech they came across. They were avid collectors of it. It's why Europe finally got its hands on lost Greek texts, through Muslim Spain and especially after they retook Muslim Spain. I grant you much was lost. Most of the Greek plays are gone, or known only by titles, but with so many local largely independent potential observers it is a mystery.

No but more interestingly around the 14th century was when China was discovering the world with fleets of ships.

Well the Chinese age of discovery is an interesting one. China was already an empire so wasn't so hellbent on expanding. as an empire it tended towards long periods of stasis, with sudden flowerings of movement. The explorations one good example. They went out, saw and recorded all sorts of wonders, then promptly destroyed the fleet and went back to stasis.

Its said Marco Polo discovered China its more likely China discovered Europe and wisdom prevailed to steer clear.

Not really. the Chinese were well aware of Europe/Rome by that stage and had been for a very long time. There are Chinese reports and descriptions of the Roman empire and vice versa. Rome knew of this empire in the east where they got their cool stuff like silks and spices from and The Chinese knew of this huge empire to the west. They regarded it initially as like the balanced opposite of their own empire which plugged into their philosophical worldview(and compared the Romans in a good light with themselves). On both sides a few efforts were made to make more direct contact. This was usually thwarted by the nations in between who didn't want to lose the cash on the back and forth trade they were raking in as middle men. Though a few traders from Rome made it to China.

Still it seems there was more interaction than is commonly believed. Check out this link from a few years back where they found East Asian skeletons in 4th century Roman Britain, which was right at the edge of empire. A couple of others have been found in Italy. No such European skeletons have been confirmed in China, though there are some tantalising possibilities. Chinese writers reported their army encountered another small army of pale men who fought in a very disciplined way using Roman tactics like the tortoise formation. Roman goods have been found as far out as SE Asia too. There may have even been meetings or tales of Greeks from the time of Alex the Great.

Later on Rome did establish more direct links and the Byzantines even more solid ones. So China was well aware of the Europeans and European empires and by the Byzantine even had a bit of handle on some of the local politics.

Why didn't the Chinese explore further? Why bother. They had a huge empire, which was in constant need of defence, Europe was very far away and trade was going OK. It made no economic or political or practical sense.

It would likely have been a failure too. Europe was very difficult to take over. It wasn't nearly as centralised and rigid as China and you had many different states all with their own armies, all who were fighting each other on the regular. Unlike in China no central head to chop off and replace. Even the centralised Church had competitors and internal factions going on at one time or another.

So imagine the Chinese take a couple of states in the East, then they'd have to deal with various Italian city states and they'd have the Germans and Poles and Russians on their right and behind and then they'd have to contend with the French army, one of the most successful land armies anywhere in history. All a couple of thousand miles from home and to little end. Europeans could go empire building beyond their borders only when sea faring and transport and superior weapons and tactics allowed them to and it was a huge advantage for small European nations to steal big nations beyond Europe.

Capt'n Midnight

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Electric cars predate petrol and diseasel cars.

Hydrogen powered cars are even older.

Ipso

Wibbs wrote: »

Well they kicked off in response to Islamic attack, but generally speaking yes. Only at the point of contact, which was narrow enough. The libraries and monasteries in France, Germany, England, Ireland and so on would have felt little of that conflict beyond what they heard. Even what they heard would have been very limited and episodic.

People lived extremely local lives back then. The vast majority of people lived and died within a ten mile radius of where they were born(a pattern that lasted pretty much until the industrial revolution). About the only wider world they heard of was from travelling troubadours and occasional missives transmitted through the church. So concerns committed to parchment tended to be very local too. If you have a perusal of medieval church/monastic records the bulk of it is along the lines of Joe died, Mary had triplets, the cows gave good milk, a sickness came, it was a harsh winter and such like. Weather and portents in the sky were also a big thing, because for everyone they were "local". And many were recorded, from lightning strikes(common here with the round towers) to "strange moons" and shooting stars and comets. Which again makes the omission of such an apparently obvious heavenly event so odd.

Well the Muslims were very keen on preserving what literature and tech they came across. They were avid collectors of it. It's why Europe finally got its hands on lost Greek texts, through Muslim Spain and especially after they retook Muslim Spain. I grant you much was lost. Most of the Greek plays are gone, or known only by titles, but with so many local largely independent potential observers it is a mystery.

Well the Chinese age of discovery is an interesting one. China was already an empire so wasn't so hellbent on expanding. as an empire it tended towards long periods of stasis, with sudden flowerings of movement. The explorations one good example. They went out, saw and recorded all sorts of wonders, then promptly destroyed the fleet and went back to stasis. Not really. the Chinese were well aware of Europe/Rome by that stage and had been for a very long time. There are Chinese reports and descriptions of the Roman empire and vice versa. Rome knew of this empire in the east where they got their cool stuff like silks and spices from and The Chinese knew of this huge empire to the west. They regarded it initially as like the balanced opposite of their own empire which plugged into their philosophical worldview(and compared the Romans in a good light with themselves). On both sides a few efforts were made to make more direct contact. This was usually thwarted by the nations in between who didn't want to lose the cash on the back and forth trade they were raking in as middle men. Though a few traders from Rome made it to China.

Still it seems there was more interaction than is commonly believed. Check out this link from a few years back where they found East Asian skeletons in 4th century Roman Britain, which was right at the edge of empire. A couple of others have been found in Italy. No such European skeletons have been confirmed in China, though there are some tantalising possibilities. Chinese writers reported their army encountered another small army of pale men who fought in a very disciplined way using Roman tactics like the tortoise formation. Roman goods have been found as far out as SE Asia too. There may have even been meetings or tales of Greeks from the time of Alex the Great.

Later on Rome did establish more direct links and the Byzantines even more solid ones. So China was well aware of the Europeans and European empires and by the Byzantine even had a bit of handle on some of the local politics.

Why didn't the Chinese explore further? Why bother. They had a huge empire, which was in constant need of defence, Europe was very far away and trade was going OK. It made no economic or political or practical sense.

It would likely have been a failure too. Europe was very difficult to take over. It wasn't nearly as centralised and rigid as China and you had many different states all with their own armies, all who were fighting each other on the regular. Unlike in China no central head to chop off and replace. Even the centralised Church had competitors and internal factions going on at one time or another.

So imagine the Chinese take a couple of states in the East, then they'd have to deal with various Italian city states and they'd have the Germans and Poles and Russians on their right and behind and then they'd have to contend with the French army, one of the most successful land armies anywhere in history. All a couple of thousand miles from home and to little end. Europeans could go empire building beyond their borders only when sea faring and transport and superior weapons and tactics allowed them to and it was a huge advantage for small European nations to steal big nations beyond Europe.

Ten thousand Roman soldiers were taken prisoner after the battle of Carrhae, supposedly they ended up in what is now Turkmenistan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carrhae

New Home

Still on the subject of Marco Polo, apparently he introduced silk to Europe - he secretly brought some silkworms back home by hiding them in carpets - an early form of industrial espionage/corporate knowledge theft, in a way.

Nope, wrong again.

Dtp1979

Big Nasty wrote: »

Coal miners used to bring caged canaries down in to the coal mines with them. If there was a build up of carbon monoxide the little canary would croak long before the silent killer would start having an effect on humans thus giving the miners an early warning to get out of Dodge.

Tweet, tweet!

Ah back in the days when a tweet wasn't some idiot celebrity telling us they got a new cat

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

New Home wrote: »

Still on the subject of Marco Polo, apparently he introduced silk to Europe - he secretly brought some silkworms back home by hiding them in carpets - an early form of industrial espionage/corporate knowledge theft, in a way.

Silk production, while small scale and of lessor quality, pre dates Marco Polo. In the mid-6th century, two monks, sponsored by emperor Justinian I of Byzantium , smuggled silkworm eggs into the empire. This led to the establishment of an indigenous Byzantine silk industry.

iLikeWaffles

Wibbs wrote: »

So imagine the Chinese take a couple of states in the East, then they'd have to deal with various Italian city states and they'd have the Germans and Poles and Russians on their right and behind and then they'd have to contend with the French army, one of the most successful land armies anywhere in history. All a couple of thousand miles from home and to little end. Europeans could go empire building beyond their borders only when sea faring and transport and superior weapons and tactics allowed them to and it was a huge advantage for small European nations to steal big nations beyond Europe.

?? So wisdom prevailed to steer clear then....

New Home

Anders Shy Aircraft wrote: »

Silk production, while small scale and of lessor quality, pre dates Marco Polo. In the mid-6th century, two monks, sponsored by emperor Justinian I of Byzantium , smuggled silkworm eggs into the empire. This led to the establishment of an indigenous Byzantine silk industry.

Darn. Another thing I have to unlearn and re-learn. :rolleyes:

Anders Shy Aircraft, if you had worked for Mythbusters, that programme would have never been made.

Wibbs

iLikeWaffles wrote: »

?? So wisdom prevailed to steer clear then....

More "why bother/it never occurred to us" than "wisdom". The latter suggests an active gaze at the possibility. The Chinese were no more wise or not than any other civilisation. Though there has long been an occidental fantasy/wish that the "exotic" East was and a similar fantasy with "primitive" cultures. Other cultures can certainly have similar feelings on the "other", but the European mind seems to really get the horn for that stuff.

iLikeWaffles

Wibbs wrote: »

More "why bother/it never occurred to us" than "wisdom". The latter suggests an active gaze at the possibility. The Chinese were no more wise or not than any other civilisation. Though there has long been an occidental fantasy/wish that the "exotic" East was and a similar fantasy with "primitive" cultures. Other cultures can certainly have similar feelings on the "other", but the European mind seems to really get the horn for that stuff.

Not much wisdom in agreeing with a statement then trying to debunk it with many words that back it up and then trying to make a fool out the original poster with a raving rant of gibberish, is there professor.

donegaLroad

In 1920, Henry Ford wrote a book called The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem

He was the only American to get honorable mention in Hitler's 'Mein Kampf'.

The most common bird in the world at the start of the 19th century was the passenger pigeon, native to North America. They have been estimated to have then numbered over 3 billion. The movement of people across North America over the century and the intesive hunting that went with it resulted in the bird becoming extinct by 1914. People had been known to shoot 100 of them with a single blast of their gun, them being so plentiful in the sky during flight.

Ipso

Deleted User wrote: »

The most common bird in the world at the start of the 19th century was the passenger pigeon, native to North America. They have been estimated to have then numbered over 3 billion. The movement of people across North America over the century and the intesive hunting that went with it resulted in the bird becoming extinct by 1914. People had been known to shoot 100 of them with a single blast of their gun, them being so plentiful in the sky during flight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_pigeon
"One flock in 1866 in southern Ontario was described as being 1.5 km (1 mi) wide and 500 km (300 mi) long, took 14 hours to pass, and held in excess of 3.5 billion birds"